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Yet Mayle was signed to the Cowboys practice squad and Lenz passed waivers.

I guess 31 other teams missed your point.

If anyone wants to do it, I'd be interested in knowing the following:

1. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts made their team as a starter?
2. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts made their team as a back up?
3. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts made their team on the practice squad?
4. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts were cut and picked up by another team in the same categories as above - as a starter, back up, and practice squad?
5. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts are still in the league?
6. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts are still in the league with their original teams?
7. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts for the Patriots, Seahawks, Colts, Steelers, Packers, Broncos, Giants, Ravens, and Bengals are still with those teams?

I don't know if anyone has the time or would be interested in the same numbers as I am. I have neither the time nor is my interest in it so high that I want to compile the data. But if someone were willing to do it, I am curious as to what it might say.

Yeah, I don't know why YTown continues to label him as slow.

Bottom line is Mayle can't catch. It's a skill that cannot be taught. You either have hand-eye coordination or you don't. He won't be in the league 3 years from now.

I do hope Farmer does not continue to draft WRs who can't catch. It should be the very first question that is asked of anyone playing that position. Can he catch? If the answer is no, you move on and don't even worry about the rest of it.

7. How many 4th round draft picks from the last three drafts for the Patriots, Seahawks, Colts, Steelers, Packers, Broncos, Giants, Ravens, and Bengals are still with those teams?

from 2015 12 out of 14, the other 2 are on Practice squads, 0 starters

from 2014 9 out of 12, 2 are starters (Centers for NE and Cincy, Stork and Bodine)

from 2013 8 out of 12, 4 are starters (Colts OC Holmes, Steelers SS Thomas, Packers OT Bakhtiari, Ravens FB Juszczyk)

Thanks 66. I'd like to see the rest of the data as well (not asking you to do it, but would like to see it).

The reason I asked about those specific teams is because those teams are considered "good" teams. I wanted to see how their 4th round draft picks have fared over the last few years since some seem to believe that Mayle not making the team was a "wasted" pick.

I only listed 9 teams so I'm assuming some teams had multiple picks from what you posted?

I need to think about the data a little bit. Just from what you posted, there are 6 starters out of a possible 38. And none of those starters are skill players. 4 of the 6 are offensive lineman.

Does that make Mayle a wasted pick? What defines "wasted pick"? If Mayle had made the team as a backup would that have been ok? Practice squad?

The only thing I would say from this very small sample of data is Farmer could have passed on Erving and gotten his lineman later.

But to make this big of a deal about a fourth round pick is kind of crazy to me. If someone is willing to produce the rest of the data, I'll reserve further judgment.

so your trying to say because other teams waste fourth round picks its ok for us?

I believe a better comparison to look at would be, "How many fourth round draft picks were cut at the end of their first training camp?"

Quincy Morgan, Braylon Edwards, Vince Mayle.

Only four 4th round players did not make their teams roster this year, 1 is on the NFI list, the other 3 are on practice squads, but of three on practice squads Mayle is the only one not on his original team's.

meanwhile, Rashad Greene is the 3rd receiver at JAX after being taken in the 5th round

And I see this as a two headed monster. Terrible that this years fourth round pick couldn't even stay on the practice squad of the team who drafted him and is the only NFL rookie fourth round pick to qualify in that category.

But at the same time, it shows that our FO and coaching staff didn't waste time keeping an unqualified player around just because they drafted him.

So I think it was a terrible waste of a fourth round pick, but I'm glad they didn't keep him around just to save face.

I don't agree with that. The reason I wanted to go back a few years was to see if they amounted to anything at all, not just after their first TC. Is there that big of a difference between a 4th round pick who makes the first year cut, gets to the practice squad, and gets cut the next year vs. one that gets cut the first year?

I think it's unfortunate that Farmer drafted a 4th round pick who got cut. But looking at some of the best teams in the league who many might consider "good drafters" have produced a total of 6 starters, 4 on the OL, and no skill level players (if dawg66's research is accurate). Yes, it would have been nice if Mayle could have at least provided depth, but the reaction of many is not consistent with the disappointment of cutting a depth player. It's as if people expected the 4th round pick to be a major contributor.

I'm not defending Farmer here. Just trying to bring some perspective. If people want to be upset about the first round picks, that's one thing. But complaining about the 4th round guys is just piling on for the sake of piling on. It's as if perfection is expected from Farmer when it's not even closely achieved anywhere else around the league.

This is what happens when you don't have a QB. Everything, EVERYTHING bad, gets magnified when it shouldn't.

I am not going to rip on Farmer for having a fourth round pick get cut. I actually respect that they owned up and cut the guy.

I do have a problem w/drafting WRs who are known to have bad hands. I have NEVER understood that.

For example, I don't get why the Rats drafted Perriman. Yeah, he has talent, but he drops passes. If you can't catch the football by the time you reach the NFL, you aren't going to learn how to. People act like high schools and colleges don't address those things. LOL

I think Farmer should get questioned for numerous moves. You can go to the Farmer thread to see them if you are so inclined, but I am not going to bust his chops because a 4th rounder didn't make it.

I agree wholeheartedly.

On another thread today, I had the same question ... why draft a WR who can't catch. Should be prerequisite #1. If a guy can't catch, it doesn't matter if he's big and runs a 4.2 40.

I would think the low number of successful 4th rounders would indicate that on those good teams their roster is better and thus harder to crack.

I'd like to see how many stick with teams who are not considered good, with less talented rosters, enabling those 4th rounders to win a spot over the less talented players.

The 2014 draft had 40 4th rnd picks and out of that total 29 are still with their original team.

Interesting. Just under 75 per cent, after two seasons.

Bingo...at all costs avoid the Heyward Beys...Sammie Coats I'm glad went to the Steelers I think he's going to be Heyward Bey esque... Heck Heyward Bey and their UDFA WR is ahead of me...Mayle was a head scratcher in round 4...When I would have easily gone a round higher with a trade up and snatched up Jaelen Strong...what a waste

Lenz evidently ran a 4.29 to a 4.50 on his Pro Day, back in 2013. Maybe slow is the wrong word. However, I don't think that anyone can see what he did on the field and say "This is a guy who runs a 4.39". Further, a Pro Day gives a player the ability to set up al of the conditions perfectly for maximum speed. The combine gives a more level field for comparison.

If teams thought that he has that kind of speed, with solid hands, and the ability to run routes competently, even at 5'11", he would have a spot right now. Teams would be lining up for him.

He appears to be a kid who is close to being a bottom of the roster NFL level player, but is just a hair away.

No doubt I appreciate the effort here 66, but I asked the questions a certain way for a reason. I didn't just want to know how many were still with their teams, I wanted to know in what capacity. I think that's important. If most of the 29 are starters or fringe starters or backups getting good playing time after two years, then Farmer blew it with the Mayle pick when compared to his peers. If most of the 29 are bottom of the depth chart, still on the practice squad guys, then I would think the reaction by some of Mayle getting cut is over the top.

Yeah, I think people, myself definitely included, got a little too high on Josh. Probably because he seemed to be the most productive WR in "preseason"...

I thought when we made the pick that Mayle was a developmental guy. He had warts, but they looked correctable. He put up good numbers in a power conference, and where do you draft a 6'2", 225 lb. guy who caught more than 100 balls for almost 1500 yds and 9 TDs in one season? He didn't play in a pro-style offense and was new to the position. I didn't really expect him to contribute in year one. I thought he was someone who could pay off down the road. I'm disappointed we didn't get him on the practice squad. I really wish they'd expand the practice squad and give teams more control of their draft picks. For example, make it so first year draft picks don't have to be cut and clear waivers to be put on the team that drafted them's PS. I feel like most high potential developmental guys tend to sign with the more successful teams basically circumventing the whole draft-based parity system.

Luckily, Benjamin looks like he's continued to improve as a receiver and Hartline looks like he was a good pickup. Maybe Pryor can prove to be a playmaker, too.

Everybody with internet access knew this about Mayle pre-draft:

"Limited FBS experience with an immature past, struggling with motivation and inconsistent focus - had to be convinced to play football after taking a few years off."

Picking him over a much more consistent prospect like FSU's Rashad Greene, who was still available, is just another reason why I want Farmer replaced.

Oh, and as far as RBs go, Josh Robinson is Gore's backup in Indy already. Good thing we have Gaines sitting 6th on the CB depth chart and some backup TE drafted straight to the IR (R.Telfer)

I think I just saw a ghost! Good to see you're still around here.

Farmer whiffed, no doubt. But to fault him for not taking a running back in the Gaines spot is unreasonable. We already had Crowell, West, and Johnson by that point.

(Also, Gaines was place on the "IR Designated to Return" list. That is just horrendous roster management.)

I don't see that as a problem to add another one in round 6, after all we're talking about RBs. When was the last time the top 3 RBs were all healthy going into week one? That, and they "knew" that both Crowell and West had attitude problems. The way I see it, CB was much more stacked than RB, even after the Duke Johnson pick.

And yes, the Gaines IR thing is horrible, but you have to look deeper. Farmer is basically saving face with this move. They would have to cut Gaines (or worse, Gilbert) because they already had too many CBs (say what?) and he didn't beat out Bademosi for pure ST play (say what?). I guess no GM could have seen that problem coming on draft day. The Desir selection was already superfluous evidenced by the fact that he's stashed way down the depth chart again this season. Horrible drafting and roster management. They had to sign T.Williams and had to get lucky with K'waun Williams in UDFA to fill the two other starting spots they drafted Gilbert and Desir for (and neither was ever going to play nickel, which makes the Desir pick pretty much useless). Meanwhile, Martavis Bryant would probably be the no1 WR on the Browns heading into week one.

Why do some of you have a problem with Gaines being on the designated to return IR? The spot was open and it allowed us to keep Gaines without losing him for the year. Who else would you have used it for?

Whoever gets injured of the other 50 more important players on the roster in the next couple of weeks. All it does is "buy time" until other injuries happen, but then you might have to cut a real player, because you can't stash one of your starters on there.

Gaines is the 7th CB on the depth chart. That's a fact. That alone is stupid enough, to "protect" your backup's backup. The inevitable is just delayed and that's cutting one of the CBs, be it Gilbert, Desir or Gaines. All drafted by Farmer, none of them cracking the top 3 CB spots.

I thought that according to the rules the IR designation for return spot had to be used before the season started. It can only be used to by a person injured during the preseason who is expected to be out at least 6 weeks but not the whole season

no, the Browns used it on Hughes last year in late October.

Guess i was wrong then. If that is the case then yeah I agree it was a dumb move on Pettine's part.

okay Rishuz I looked it up and according to the team depth charts at OURLADS' the 4th round of the 2014 draft breaks down as follows:

10 starters or splits time
19 backups
11 no longer with their original team

Pettine is not the one who decides these things.

I bet it wasn't done without his approval.

What would have been your roster move to gain another spot on the 53? I would have cut Carder myself.

BTW, I'm not a fan of the move/designation either.

So you don't believe that upgrading your team at every position and depth is important? Because it sure sounds like it.

Upgrading the roster from top to bottom is the job of every NFL GM. Out of 40, 29 players have been used to do this.

Am I saying that's a huge deal? No. But how anyone can not see that we are getting nothing, or next to nothing from first round picks, shipped out last years third round pick and then add in this years fourth round pick.

That's a pattern and not an isolated incident.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Then I'm slightly confused here. If you can't at least upgrade the bottom of your roster with mid round picks, I believe that is important and telling.

Now if you're the Seattle Seahawks, maybe not so much. But we are a fledgling team that is known for having trouble in terms of quality depth. Not so much at DT and DE but most certainly everywhere else.

Like I said earlier, I don't see it as a huge problem in terms of Mayle. It does bother me that the decision was made to draft the WR with the most drops in the NCAA in the fourth round. I also find it troubling that 29 out of 40 other players drafted in the fourth round made either the roster or practice squad of the team they were drafted by.

But we can't keep going on drafting players that aren't at least worth investing in to upgrade at least our worst players with. To improve as a team, we must continue to upgrade at every level of our roster at all positions.

I agree.

Pit, be honest here. If Mayle had only made the practice squad, do you think people would have still held that against Farmer? Is there that much difference in making the practice squad and being cut?

This whole premise started with the notion that people were expecting Mayle to be on the active roster on game day and be a major contributor. No one has come out and said that directly, but the reaction to him not making the team is not proportionate with realistic expectations of any impact he might have had anyway.

That's the piling I'm on talking about. Farmer is ripe for the picking so let's embellish every single mistake. I think that's wrong.