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Who are the better options?

I get the feeling from your post that had Farmer not been hired here and had not been hired as a GM yet he would be on your list of possible better options. You talked about how you felt about him when he was hired. You liked him. You had researched him. You liked the way he came up. However, things have not worked out the way you had hoped and you have soured on him.

Think about that for a second. Hopefully when you make a statement that there are better options, you actually have a list. Think about how it might work out with one on of the guys on your list. There's always the chance it can not go the way you want it to. And you've set the franchise back again.

I think the best course of action is to let it play out. The grass always seems greener on the other side but it usually isn't.

So your evaluation of Farmer was wrong?

How can that be?

Btw, Farmer tried unsuccessfully to trade up for Beckham and Cooks. What he says in front of the camera about WRs may not be the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I'm certainly not one to stick up for Farmer. I agree with you on a lot of your points. But these two we have a difference on.

ANY time in ANY profession, when you have never done a job above your current position, there is most certainly a learning curve when you are promoted. I don't see that as a debatable point. When you've never done something, there are always things left for you to learn.

That's why I also take exception with your second point. No matter the promotion, the fact you struggle some at the beginning is in no way indicative of how you will progress at the position and eventually perform at your new position.

While it's still left to be seen, I certainly like this years draft much better overall than last years draft.

I like it when you're reasonable.

It's a great look on you.

The purposely being dense for effect like your most recent post in the practice squad thread?

Not so much.

It's all about perception.

But again, you guys are talking about "posters" rather than the topic. Why the hell is that?

I have a guess: The guys who are defending Farmer don't have a really good argument, so they attack other posters that don't agree w/them. It's been that way for years!!!!

It sucks. And I wish it would stop!

I made several points about Farmer's good moves and bad moves. Would you guys care to address those, or do you still wanna back a poster who calls others moronic, dumb, and whiners?

If I said just one of those things, I would be suspended. How do some of you get away w/the constant namecalling? I did not call you one name. Freaking amazing. It's like the time Memphis calls me a liar. I state the facts as I remember them and say that he is the liar. I get suspended, he doesn't. When I come back, he calls me a liar again. No suspension for him.....again. It's crap!

Look at some of your comments in this thread:



Who is the whiner and complainer? Who is supercilious?

Btw------------what do you think of Farmer giving Bowe such a large contract?

Laid out the way you did, I can't really debate a single point you made.

I will try again. Anyone wanna discuss Farmer and not other posters? I will repost the points I made before. Good points. Bad points. Feel free to agree, disagree, or add to either list. But, let's just keep it to Farmer and not other posters. Okay?



There are more out there. Like someone could say adding Hartline looks to be a good move thus far. Or, someone could say that playing hardball w/Gipson wasn't smart, especially after he gave McCown and Bowe more money.

Can we keep it about Farmer, please?

If you don't have the QB, your draft is probably going to look bad. Sadly, we haven't been bad enough to "Luck" into that QB.

If you don't keep a system for more than a year or two, how are your players supposed to develop? Let's give Farmer a bit more time as we see how things shake out. Hopefully our HC and coordinators stick around for a bit, too.

Unfortunately, the success or failure of a player relies on a lot more than his individual talent. For an offensive player, the largest factor is probably the QB, and we haven't really had a good one since the return.

The injury bug also hasn't been kind to us. I half-seriously blame the cloud of negativity that Browns fans seem to carry with them. Things were looking good until Mack went down last year. There's really not a whole lot a GM can do about that mid-season.

Farmer can only pick the players that are available. Pretty much every other GM passed on Bridgewater, too. Why? We'll probably never know.

He seems to have gotten a better handle on the character/mental make-up aspect of drafting after Manziel, Gilbert, and West. I'm liking the look of this year's group, but we'll have to see how it translates when it counts.

Great post.

Thanks GM...That's where I wasn't sure.. When you have the HC stating he needed the GM's advice to who to replace a player .. I was thinking a few different scenerios

So, I am assuming you guys do NOT want to discuss the individual roster moves and instead, let's just stick w/the version of "he needs time?"

Wait a minute. By your own admission you were happy when Farmer got the job. Now you're saying he didn't have a plan, had no confidence in his abilities to perform his duties, and that drafting players is a "basic" skill that you should know right away and not have to learn over time?

When you produce your list of possible replacements, can you also comment on each of them for the following requirements for each candidate:

Do they have a plan?
Do they have confidence in their abilities?
Do they agree that drafting players is a "basic" skill?

Also, are these new requirements that you just came up with or have these always existed? Why were you happy with the Farmer hire if he scored poorly for each of these?

You are working hard to make him look bad, but you never ever question a poster who sings Farmer's praises. That's fine. But, your not exactly being objective.

I will be objective and address some of "loaded" points:



1. Big deal if he liked Farmer before the latter got the job. He probably heard some good things about him.

2. How was bone supposed to know Farmer's plan before he got the job. I believe he is speaking about what he has seen in regards to Farmer's plan. Btw-------------what is Farmer's plan? Here is a hint............be careful in answering that. LOL

3. I disagree w/bone and think Farmer has shown to have plenty of confidence. He comes across as arrogant. He says dumb things, but he says them w/conviction. I think he actually might be better served to show some humility and get some assistance in regards to evaluating skill players on offense. He might want more help in assessing the character of the people he hires, as well.

4. Farmer had no previous experience w/the NFL draft. I think one can grow in regards to evaluating talent. Heck, let me rephrase that. I know one can grow. I do know that from having worked for a scouting service, that some guys are just better at it than others. I will provide an example.........[this example is very simple, but I chose it so even those who don't really follow football can relate to it]

4a. Some scouts get very wrapped up in what guys do well. For example, they will see a qb who has prototypical size, has a gun, is athletic, etc and they move him way up their boards. You see the same thing w/WRs. Big, strong, fast, breaks tackles, great measurables.

Me, I always looked at a guy's negatives very closely. I am NOT saying I don't consider the positives, but there are some negatives that are hard to overcome, such as a qb who struggles reading coverages or has accuracy issues. Those two are almost impossible to overcome. Or, a WR who struggles catching the ball. I would never recommend a WR who struggles w/drops.

In summary, I think some guys are way better at evaluating talent than others, but people can improve over time.

Personally, I like guys who rely on a variety of expert opinions and can then disseminate all that information and put the horizontal and vertical boards together afterwards.

Agree about QBs and accuracy (and receivers who have the dropsies) but I'm surprised that learning to read coverages is that hard to overcome.

Reading coverages is the hardest thing to do in football. And it ain't close.

Guys can get better at reading defenses pre-snap, but reading coverages post-snap is incredibly difficult. It's not taught. It's a God given gift.

I would love to do that... But I need help to understand the GM more..

I have a basic and most likely a self answering question..

In a team sport that takes the efforts of many people to be put in place for a team to succeed.. How do we place a failure or succeeded stamp on an individual ?

Do we take a sample of the good and bad after one plate.. or do we offer to sample a different recipe. ?

When can we Honestly and respectfully judge a plate without prejudice ?

Are we to judge quickly ..knowing the first plate may have been made up quickly with leftovers..to please the ones who don't have the patience to allow the cooking to be done...

or do we over cook the plate in fear of making a perfect impression the first time?

I love debate and learning... But how do we put a time limit on it.

I look at Farmer as a person tying to grow into a position that will allow him to succeed in making the Browns a successful franchise..

What I need to learn how to do is know when someone who is a professional at a level I will never be at...And trust that person to suceed in his position..

How do we learn the time table for success of these people in place..

Knowing that you are a teacher Vers... How do you recognize seeing failure or success in one of your students ?

Is it a grow and learn in time... or they will never get it, ?

It's a sincere post to you.. I'm really as a student of learning the game of life everyday.. I want to learn more about the off field issues of the game.

Funny thing is Vers.. I don't know a rhing about fantasy football and how it works... Want to know the reason why ?
because I never was able to comprehend things.. And i felt all I wanted to do was just watch a football game without having to rack my brains like I'm doing homework after the last bell rang.. lol.. I hope you understand my thinking... thank you

I agree.

Some only focus on top picks. For me, I look at who we have picked up, no matter where people were drafted or selected. Once a guy is on the team, I don't give a damn where or how he was picked up.

Which individual move? It's not an individual move position. Name me one GM that hasn't had a bad pick.

Every GM in the league passed on Bridgewater at least once. I'm not convinced he's going to be great.

You want to talk Gilbert? Pettine told Farmer his scheme needed specific traits in its corners. Farmer picked a guy with them. Unfortunately the non-physical things are giving Gilbert trouble. Maybe Gilbert will figure things out.

West I guess we can call a miss. He had solid numbers for a part time back playing behind a makeshift line for half the season. Farmer appears to have adjusted his draft strategy to account for attitude and maturity. I'll admit I'm not a fan of trading him to a team we'll play in two weeks for such little compensation, but apparently he didn't want him to end up on the Ravens.

As far as this year, the jury is still out. All the picks are still on the roster outside of Mayle. He was expected to be a project, and decided to sign with the Cowboys practice squad instead of us.

Any other individual roster moves you'd like to discuss?

Good post, bro.

There is bound to be a certain amount of bias on both sides. That's a given.

However, if we stick to talking about his moves thus far and get away from attacking other posters, I believe that we will have a better discussion.

I also believe that intelligent people like to see both sides of any topic. For example, when I buy a product, I read all the specs. I read the professional reviews. I read the consumer reviews. There can often be a wide range of opinions and information given, but as an informed reader, I like to sift through all of info and formulate an educated opinion.

How can that be worse than calling each other whiners, morons, dumb and telling people to STFU. Let's just talk about what we have observed thus far. We don't have to agree. In fact, intelligent debate will help us all learn more about the team and the game of football.

My students? They are kids. I NEVER give up on them. I don't want to hear from their previous teachers about how bad they are or how low they are. I have one mission, to make them a better person, both academically and socially. It's my greatest strength as a teacher. My principal doesn't like me all that much, but even he says he has NEVER seen a teacher who has a better rapport w/his students. It's because I adopt them as my own and I believe in them. Everyone is capable of learning!!!

I hear you about the comprehension thing. That's cool. You don't have to participate. I bet you don't like all the bickering and name-calling either, right? Wouldn't you rather read people discussing the facts and offering logical opinions as opposed to all the name-calling?

I said "moves," not move. I even reposted them, both good and bad and asked people to agree, disagree, or add to either list.

Goodness!

"Wait a minute. By your own admission you were happy when Farmer got the job. Now you're saying he didn't have a plan, had no confidence in his abilities to perform his duties, and that drafting players is a "basic" skill that you should know right away and not have to learn over time?

When you produce your list of possible replacements, can you also comment on each of them for the following requirements for each candidate:

Do they have a plan?
Do they have confidence in their abilities?
Do they agree that drafting players is a "basic" skill?"
========================================================

You are being absurd.

Trying to argue for the sake of argument. Sorry I don't play that game. Read what I wrote.

I never said he lacked confidence. I stated the requirements for hiring. Farmer clearly has his plan. Whether it is correct remains to be seen.

How would I know all the qualified people for the position of GM? I know a few but they are currently employed and most likely unwilling to leave their current teams.

I am sure any legitimate candidate for the position of GM has a plan on how to build a team.

If a person is a true candidate for the position of GM in the NFL is not running the draft and evaluating talent a prerequisite?

You support Farmer have at it. You want to debate at least read what I wrote and comprehend the meaning. If I misstate my thoughts I will try to clarify.

I am not working hard at making bone look bad. I'm trying to understand why after years and years and years of turnover why we can't give one regime a chance. I honestly don't understand how people can't see how much the turnover has contributed to all of this losing.

I'm trying to understand why someone who has a problem can't offer a solution. My employees are instructed that if they walk through my door with a gripe or a complaint it better come with a proposed solution. Bone's solution is he is sure there are people out there who can do it better, but he's not sure who. And even if he were to produce a list, keep in mind he was really happy with the Farmer signing. How much should we trust his list? And if you are happy with someone initially why wouldn't you want to give that person time to succeed? I'm glad my boss didn't give up on me after my first year.

I just wish the fanbase could be more patient. I wish the Cleveland media would crawl into a hole (did anyone see Hartline snap at Grossi yesterday?). I think the easy way out is giving up on guys too soon. That's the loser's way out, IMO. It's hard for me to preach this continuity when Farmer has effed up as much as he has. It's not easy every time you make your bulletized list of all his negatives to scream patience at the top of my lungs. But I think it's wrong to give up on these guys too early. And I think that will set us back more than some blown draft picks. It takes time to build something special. Let's just for once have that patience. I think it will pay off.

What's absurd is not using the built in quote feature that comes with the board.

I'm tired of arguing with you bone. I just hope we don't give up on these guys too early. If we do, then I hope we won't give up on the next guys too early either.

Our GM is supposed to be better than some talking heads on NFL network. Had he done his hiomework he would have known that wile Dilbert is a physical specimen, he's also a massive headcase.

1. In this case, you're right. I was specifically addressing my agreement in the narrow confines of Cal's post. The reason was that other posters had read his words and interpreted HIS INTENT differently than I had. My post was to give a different vantage point from which to consider Cal's intent. BUT at the same time, IT WAS NOT a case of me 'joining a team.'

2. Your guess about some posters is probably on-point. In a group this large, there is a good chance that you've nailed at least a dozen who may fit that profile. I honestly don't keep close track of 90% of who posts what on here, so I'm just taking a wild stab at these numbers.

My style is to read the posts, and respond to whomever sparks a response. Most of the time, I don't read the poster's name until AFTER I've read the post. Sometimes, I go through an entire page in PF without really knowing who said what... especially true when all the posts are short, and read the same as many others.

This is why I've told you many times before that I don't join teams, I don't pick sides, and I don't gang up on individuals as a 'member of a pack.' Sometimes, I'll agree with a poster on a single point (s)he has made without being 'on their side' in some msg board skirmish. Next day might find me agreeing with "the other skirmisher" in another thread, or disagreeing with the original guy I "+1ed" a day before.

If the guy I "+1ed" called people names earlier in the thread, that's strictly between him and whomever he was addressing. My agreement with a specific point he's made shouldn't automatically make me his ally or someone else my adversary. I hope I'm putting this right, so you truly understand where I'm coming from.

__________________

As far as commenting on your content... I don't really have much to add that you haven't already addressed.

You and I agree on the mistakes we've seen Farmer make.
We like many of the same moves he's made that have made this team potentially better.
We both don't want him fired, but see much room for improvement
Neither of us are overly impressed yet, but neither of us has thrown in the towel on him yet.

Between you & me, there really ain't a lot to discuss, Vers. Agreement tends to do that-

i learned that i don't like the name calling.. and you were one i did that with.. and Man did i go off on you.... slapped myself and read the pm's from Clem ..Bbrowns .. I want to apologize..i want to be knowledgeable.. and admit I'm limited..

I really want to talk to no -logo.. and overtoad.. Toad was a friend outside the board.. but No-logo said something to me I will never forget...

One thing I noticed lately.. is that your noticing my posts and giving me some feed back..I love it..

I love when Pit bbrowmns 32 Clem Rish Cal GM mac names go on and on reply back to me... want to know why... it makes me LEARN... at 54 I know how to watch football... But i Don't know how to look at everything.. Because when I watch the game ..I watch it for fun..not to argue a point.

Arch ddubia all of you have something to say that makes me think.. I love it...

You guys want better posters.. then TEACH what you know.. be the Coach and teach.. Take a poster like me and teach me.. I;m going from enjoying to watching the game to wanting a little more understanding of what just happened..

Argue all you want among each other.. but take a moment to help me .. whether I ask something stupid or not..

It really is ironic ... as much as most of you want to sound more important than the other.. you pretty much sound a like.

I look forward to your thoughts and opinions... if i didn't then I wouldn't bother .. you are all SPECIAL... and I respect everyone of you...

So here comes the season.. Lets help each other survive as A Browns Fan..

Next question I would like to find out.. The special teams.....

Just how much do you feel they will be a significant part of the teams success..

I believe the coaches see a strong unit.. and hope it will utilize it's strengths to make a difference in whether we win or lose .

I'll give it a try, tho I'm no expert by any means.

For teams like ours ST is perhaps MORE important than on teams like the Pats or GB- teams that are always over .500 and in the playoff hunt because of superior QB play. They KNOW they can get points with their QB's. We can't guarantee that- so we're forced to win games in a couple other ways:

1. Have a stout D that can get off the field and give your anemic O more chances to luck into some points

2. Have a consistently good ST squad that can score FG's, pin teams deep, and break an occasional big one for massive field position or points. We've all seen games turn on plays like these.

These won't ensure you a win by any means, but they can keep you IN games... and there's always a chance when that happens.

I think we have ourselves a punter. This Lee kid is making me feel a LOT better than before the preseason. I'd never kept track of him before he got here, but from what I've seen he's the real deal. I LOVE that backspin he gets on almost every punt... drop it down on the 3 yard line, and watch it pop back up- and land on the 6 or 7. Incredible.

We seem to always have pretty good coverage teams. Johnson Bademosi keeps his job in Berea because he's an ace gunner, a sure tackler, and is all hustle on kickoffs (he sure isn't turning heads as a Safety. Stomachs, maybe- but not heads...). Kid sometimes arrives 1/2 second after the ball. We have others who've done this for a few years now... and know their roles, their lanes, and miss far fewer tackles than previous Browns teams.

PK: I still miss Phil. I don't know much about the guys I saw kicking in the ps games. Both seemed to be accurate enough, with no clear winner between.

Long Snapper: this cost us at least 2 games that I can remember last season. I hope we have it sorted out for 2015. I was at that Balto game that we lost in the last 3 minutes of play. Broke our hearts.

On the way out of the stadium, a guy with a big, booming voice was walking behind us. I lost it when I heard him say of the game: "It was so good, for so long... and then it wasn't." LMAO

That statement is indicative of soooo many Browns games... and that particular game was a real case in point. The Browns played about as close to mistake-free football as they ever have, and still had the game decided on 2-3 plays that they didn't execute. They couldn't put BAL away... couldn't put that foot on their throats. So when it came time for the game to be decided on points, a bad snap on ST decided it for us. (IIRC, BAL took over and scored the winning points on its next possession. ??? #factcheck)

For teams like us, ST are huge. Bigger than they would be if we had a strong reliable O & D for 16 games. ST should be complimentary to the others, but we need to rely on them more than that- at least for the time being.

Anyway, that's my take. More about game-plan philosophy than individual players. I look forward to the day when ST aren't quite as much of a factor... because we're scoring on O and dominating on D. Until then, we'll have to take the help where we can get it.


.02

That was more than a try.. It was awesome.. you brought up really good points I didn't think of... I learned something.. and this is why I come here.. Thanks Clem...

as always you show knowledge and class..

I don't miss Phil.. I'm anxious to see the farm boy from west Ohio play..




I in the other hand .. I always hope ST's are a factor.. If we have a Good to great "D" .. and they stop and have the other team punting... It will be a good feeling knowing that our ST's can run back a punt or make an exciting play..

And when we have to punt... putting the ball on the 1-10yard line is a great way to keep the opposing teams from feeling comfortable..

Thanks Clem .. and I'm still planning on watching you bow that cello in a way that will make me proud.

Being at odds is certainly not an issue. I just happen to see it differently than you do. So my question still remains, would you like to see him fired? If not immediately, after the season? I don't think it will happen, I'm just curious about where you stand.

I really struggled whether to reply to you or not, as I'm sure the other posters are weary of the back and forth. But your hypocritical response was too blatant to ignore.

Immediately after chastising Clem for talking posters instead of football, you ignore every single one of my football responses to your questions to cherry pick the portions of my responses that you felt made you seem somehow picked on or insulted. Regardless of whether they were directed at you or not. Your response was unnecessarily petty and completely hypocritical.

So with that said, I'm dropping it and moving on. I respect your position on Farmer, and even agree with some of it. I also respect your passion for the game and for the Browns, even though I largely disagree with most of your knee-jerk over-reactions, and completely abhor the condescedning tone you continually take. So enjoy the season and...

GO BROWNS!

While I am suspect of Farmers drafting abilities, I am even more suspect at the scouting team they assembled, since that is where most of his information is coming from.