DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Trade Billy Winn to Colts

Before we can evaluate this trade, I think we need to wait until we know more about the conditional pick we received in return. Originally reported as a 7th round conditional then amended to just a conditional pick.

If it is a 7th round conditional pick then everything that you are saying holds water. Perhaps it is potentially a 1st round pick? Then things are different. It's unlikely to be a 1st but at this point we don't know. That was for demonstration purposes only. Conceivably, it could be a 5th that could be a 3rd based on performance.

Fact is we don't have enough information to accurately evaluate this trade at this point in time.

Well, the timing should tell us that it won't be more than a late rounder. Browns needed room on their roster (to add Shaun Draughn of all people), they were sellers and had to find a quick taker. That's when you can buy low on the other side of the deal.

I hear you, but we've seen how these "conditional" picks have worked out in past moves around the league. When I see the word "conditional," I automatically think the guy is being given away.

To be fair... let's be real. His odds of being cut were likely already high. For them to have gotten anything for someone they most likely already had on the chopping block, is a plus in my book.

JMO

Why were they high? Because Cooper, Meder, Housler, Bibbs, Johnson, Orchard, etc have already proven to be far superior players?

What Shaun Draughn Brings to the Table

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/9/4/9261897/what-shaun-draughn-brings-to-the-table

j/c

I really like Winn and am bummed about the trade. But, he has had the injury bug with enough frequency for concern. It seems like he's been injury prone every since he put on weight - good weight, but added weight nonetheless.

I'm very surprised that all 3 of Moore, Bademosi, and Carder are still on the team...shocked actually.

The boxer-bunching and agenda posting over another move at the bottom of the depth charts is so typically comical. Pryor was at the bottom of his chart and Winn himself was concerned that he was on the bubble before the 53 cutdown.

I'll bet that the "conditional" part of the trade has something to do with Winn being on the Colts 53 to start the '16 season...hence the pick being in '17.

I'm guessing Jacobi McDaniel lands on our PS.

We want to run the football and like using 2 TE sets. There is a reason to keep another TE. I have no issue at all with this move. I had Housler being cut but he really came on strong the last couple of weeks and was apparently very good against the bills in their scrimmage as well.

Winn like Kichen have been serviceable but have just never shown enough to be a starter even when given the opportunity to do so. They however can play in this league.

Shelton, Hughes, Starks, Desmond Bryant are better than Winn without question. Armonty pass rusher, Cooper Pass rusher different skill set. The only real question at all is the last spot Meder vs Winn. I would not have had an issue either way. Personally, I probably go with Winn but again as others has said, injury history and its the last year of his contract. If you can get a pick why not.

This is a nonstory.

I believe the Browns liked Meder better vs the run than Winn and they do want to improve that area as much as possible this season.

are we really hammering the FO for changing out the DL... what was so great about the worst run defense and a suspect pass rush from last year that makes us feel these changes are not warranted?

What am I missing? ( well, besides the obvious)

Because we are going to run a lot of 2 and 3 TE, or 2 TE with a FB.

We have a total of 5 TE/FB on the roster .... same as teams like the Vikings, and the Seahawks. We want those particular pieces for the flexibility they allow us, going to the line with a 2 TE/FB package where we can have a heavy run package, or 3 capable receivers.

Because the group of d-linemen we have are rich and deep and Winn, although when he plays I thought he was good, cannot and could not be reliable. Better off giving the roster spot to someone who is younger who can likely give you reliable and consistent production or using the spot at another position we need more backup at. I think we're set @ the d-line.

Well said. I agree with you 100%.

I didn't see him as a bottom of the roster player either. That is why we held him in order to trade him. I think he was near the bottom of our roster when compared to the other DL, and it looks like the team did as well.

You have coached. Sometimes you have to make hard decisions that aren't easy. It looks to me the staff evaluated the talent on the DL based on every means of observation possible, and just saw limited playing time for Winn at a position where we had to trim somebody.

I understand the thinking on 4 TE's. That makes me scratch my head as well, but that has nothing to do with Winn. Maybe the staff is cautious of Bibbs at this point. Maybe they want to see him tested before they let a Housler go.

I'm shocked by all of these trades. I don't think I've seen a team trade away so many players.

right before the start of the season

I agree. And with more traffic to the tight ends, don't lose track of the impact the concussion protocols may have. If that is where you will try to make money, then be deep enough to be viable. Not a huge Droughn fan, and I liked BW when he was playable. Moving forward.

Yeah, but we're the only team that keeps rookies over veterans!

That isn't true. Teams keep rooks over vets every year. I'll bet every team in the league has at least 1-2 rookies a year....but more honestly to your point, I think teams keep rooks over a player like Winn way more often then you think. Teams have to make decisions. Winn was entering a contract year. Even if he had zero teams after him, it would cost us more to sign him simply based on vet minimums. Then you have a guy like Cooper on a rook contract who looks to have real upside. Even if he doesn't meet the hope, he is probably going to be as good as Winn, so you might as well go with the young guy and hope you catch the lightening in the bottle.

I like Billy Winn as much as anybody else, but I like the Browns way more than any of the individual players. Players come and go. I appreciate what they bring and contribute, but the Browns are the light that enables me to even see any of the players. At some point long ago my loyality towards players left when it was apparent they had no real loyality towards the fans...and they shouldn't, I get it, but my loyality is with the Browns. That is my team, no matter which players might play for it in any given year.

Why do you think that way, 'peen? After all, it is ultimately the fans who are paying their exhorbitant wages...

The owners pay the "exorbitant wages." the fans pay the owners the "exorbitant wages." the players go where the money is. JMO

I think that your sarcasm detector may have been on the fritz .....

We have a lot of armchair QB's around here who reply this way every time Farmers name is brought up

Not the devil, more like Curly.

Well, there were the usual bevy of complaints that dismissed the thoughts of anyone who does not like this move and defended Farmer w/their usual aplomb. It's amazing how many people have been on here for years and still do not recognize that some of us have proven to be correct way more often than not when evaluating personnel moves. Yet, that all goes out the window and it's as if the only reason we are commenting is to unfairly bash poor Ray Farmer, which makes our comments not only meaningless, but mean-spirited.

It's that type of attitude that really upsets me and makes this board not as good as it could/should be. Seriously, after all these years..........you guys that have been around for a long time are NOT taking my evaluations seriously? Really? I am ONLY saying them to bash Farmer? Really?

Not sure if anyone wants to hear this or not. Who knows, there might be some guys who just read the board for information...........so, here goes.

I keep reading about we are going to run 2 and 3 TE sets, Winn was at the bottom of the roster, and that we have other d-linemen.

I have a few beliefs that I don't think are all that debatable.

Winn is a better player than all of our TEs and our FB, who can also play TE. He is a better player than Carder, Bademosi, and Moore. Yes, all three play on special teams but did we really need all three. He is a better player than guys like Gilbert and Poyer. He is better than guys like Draugn or whatever his name is. He is a better player than many other Browns and he probably is a better player than some of linemen we did keep.

The defensive line UNIT substitutes more frequently than any other unit and it ain't close. Coaches have had a long history of recognizing that keeping your d-line fresh is extremely important in such a pass happy league. Big guys get winded and lose effectiveness in both at rushing the passer and stopping the run when they are tired. It is imperative that you keep them fresh!!!

I'm sure none of my points make any sense at all to you guys and I am only complaining because I hate Farmer.

Right.

We have 4 TEs and a FB that can play TE. That's five.

None of the five players have the talent or past success that Winn has.

I am not saying our guys are idiots because of one solitary move. It's just another brick in the wall.

Bro please let me know when Winn can play TE, FB, middle LB, DB, or on special teams better than any of the guys you mentioned. Then I could agree that you have a point. Until then I have to disagree with you.

When it's Phil Taylor, Billy Winn factoring their health and Buster, factoring in the amount of $ New York gave him - I'm okay with keeping rookies over the vets in some instances. All three instances with those names I mentioned IMO.

I just read where you said something similar in another thread.

Do you really think I am asking anyone to agree w/me? Seriously?

Heck, I love debate. It helps us see all sides of a situation and helps us draw a more informed conclusion.

What irritates me is how many of you just dismiss my logic by saying things like I hate Farmer. Which translates into making all my thoughts meaningless.

I'm not asking anyone to agree w/me, but don't dismiss my opinions as meaningless and not having any logic. That type of response kills debate. It's counter-productive to discussion.

I think the points I have made on this thread are worthy of consideration and should not be dismissed as nonsense because I hate Farmer.

I'll be honest. I hate the idea of firing another GM, unless they stay the course with Pettine.


But the more head scratching moves farmer makes - which you have greatly documented - the more I wonder about him.

I don't understand this move at all in light of what happened on the DL last year.

I thought they were trying to create depth on the DL?

Farmer has a lot of stuff to be fired over but this really isnt one of them. Trading your 8th DL is a non story.

Gilbert #8 overall
West traded up 2 spots for and an apparent locker room cancer.
Johnny's troubles has been well noted.
Erving not being able to beat out Grecco for RG.
9 mil guaranteed to Bowe
Text gate
The cameron signing
Bringing in Ben Tate another locker room cancer


This is a lot of stuff for a guy that hasnt been here but a year and a half.

Mourg, I am NOT looking at this move in isolation.

I do disagree w/you [and I won't even insult you...lol] about this move being a non-story.

As I said earlier, almost everyone knows that you need depth on your d-line because no other unit substitutes nearly as much as your DL. You gotta keep these guys fresh.

It also seems strange to me that so many people who were saying how great our DL was before the season NOW have zero problems w/most of that line being gone.

Exactly...with the possible exception of Erving v Greco IMO.

People get all bunched up about the dumbest things to try and "prove" a point and all they do is derail their own darned point by doing so.

Lenz/Pryor/Winn most recently...all guys at or near the bottom of the depth chart at their respective positions. I like all of them...I liked Lee Suggs, Armond Smith and the guy who got a brain tumor along with a slew of other guys who were shortly out of the league after leaving here. Whoop-de-doo.

There are meaningful things to debate...and then there are not.

Who made you God of the Board and gave you the right to tell us what we can discuss?

If you don't think it's worthy of discussion, don't discuss it. Obviously, other people do deem it worthy of discussion, as evidenced by the large number of replies.

I just think its a combination of the injury history, contract and the younger guys just outplayed him in preseason. Its kinda like I saw Sherod. Good player for us but he could never get over the hump of just being potential. After 3 years of it, probably time to go with the younger guy showing the potential.

Vers, is it better to have depth that continually stays part of depth or one that potential starts?

Last year Browns DL starters got beat up. Many backups were moved into take their position. Browns ranked 32nd stopping the run. Winn, Kitchen, and Rubin are good, but after a couple of seasons with near bottom rankings more is needed than changing coaches every two years.

Vers, you're not the only and I certainly am at fault. Browns are near the bottom in every category known to football. Yet, we sit here campaigning for good "Joes." I asked myself did Browns really loose talent?