DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Another Manziel Thread

As do I, Memphis, for the same reasons you stated. I don't remember a drive of ours that looked like we had command of what we were trying to do as did that 1st quarter one...

McCown did well yesterday even if it was a just a small sample. If he's cleared to play let him. He ran our new O very well until that fumble. He may just be better than we thought in this O. JMO

moot point. i dont think his elbow can hold up as a starter.

Assuming Manziel is the future is a huge assumption, especially at this point. As I stated, he did nothing yesterday to take the starting job from McCown. Also, you're reading a lot into a little. Petting was obviously upset, and embarrassed by the loss. But he owned it and he also made eye contact. Was his head down, yes, part of the time, likely when he was reading his notes, (at least that's what I saw). He was making eye contact when addressing people, and I think it's a helluva leap to equate his presser demeanor with losing the locker room.

Am I thrilled with his performance yesterday? Hell. No. The product on the field was DISGUSTING.

But I'm giving the season a chance to play out before I indict Pettine, Haden, McCown, Farmer or anyone.

JMHO

Cal, I'm not assuming Manziel is the future, but the team drafted him to be. The team, at least at one point, thought he was. Me, personally, I'd like to see if he has what it takes.

I also don't think Pettine has lost the locker room. What I was trying to say unsuccesfully is that after the product they put on the field yesterday why would it even matter if he lost the locker room.

I am a very competitive guy by nature. I'd absolutely loathe watching people not compete. The Browns just laid down yesterday when things started going bad. I really struggle with that. That's when you're supposed to amp things up, when your competitive fire is supposed to take over.

Mac, I 100% disagree with you about where the obligation lies. The obligation of the franchise is to the fans, not the players. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one.

I do hope you're right Pett ripped into those guys.

Johnny Manziel runs, the running backs can't and Scott Solomon's rise interrupted: Browns observations

I picked the Browns to lose on Sunday. I certainly didn't think they'd lose like that. I expected a close, low-scoring game that perhaps the Browns could steal and prove me wrong. I'd have been fine with that.

It didn't happen, and the long string of season-opening frustration continues. Dealing with Marcus Mariota next week won't exactly be a picnic either.

Here are some observations from Sunday's loss.

Johnny out of pocket

Johnny Manziel didn't look lost on Sunday, not to the level he did last season. Still, it's hard to be sold on anything based off of what he showed.

My biggest concern: hanging in the pocket. On both fourth quarter turnovers, Manziel failed to move within the pocket and instead bailed at the first hint of trouble.

Here's the first:

There's the pocket. It's not huge, but it's there.



Unfortunately, the minute it starts to collapse, instead of moving around, he takes off. He ends up running into Alex Mack and fumbling. Instead of sliding to the open space, he runs himself into pressure.



Here's the second turnover. It's a little hard to tell, but Joe Thomas pushes linebacker Trevor Reilly (57) past the play. You can see Reilly starting to recover here. Manziel has room to step up in the pocket and buy more time:




Except he doesn't step up. He starts scrambling. To his right. Guess who has a full head of steam behind him heading that same direction:



Instead of continuing to work within the pocket, he runs himself right into the line of fire and turns it over.



Manziel fell victim to some drops and the offensive line isn't blameless -- they failed him a few times. It's fair to point out that his receivers didn't help him getting open. It will be interesting to see the All-22.

The concern here, though, is Manziel's unwillingness -- or inability -- to stay in the pocket and allow plays to develop. Just look at the pocket he abandoned way too quickly in the second quarter:



About that line

One area where the line struggled was in the running game. There were instances when the backs, especially Isaiah Crowell, missed openings or just didn't get to them fast enough. But there were also plenty of instances where the holes just weren't there. The Jets defense is really good. Maybe that's why. We'll find out quickly.

Solomon's sad song

I feel bad for Scott Solomon. This is a guy finally getting an opportunity after getting cut four times before landing with the Browns. I wrote about him here. When he got carted off, I couldn't help but feel for him. We'll find out more about his injury soon, but it's a reminder of how cruel the NFL can be.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/09/johnny_manziel_runs_the_runnin.html#incart_river

I get that you want to see what Manziel has, I think most of us do. I think we will too. I just don't believe replacing McCown at this point is the right call. If he keeps sacrificing himself the way he has been, Johnny will be in there a lot. But McCown can drive the offense, and Manziel can still benefit by sitting behind him and learning, IMHO. I know there is no substitute for experience, but I did see what I think was a little reversion to the old old habits once pressure starting coming and he had taken a couple hits. Besides the fact that I believe McCown to be the better QB at this point, I don't want to repeat past mistakes by putting Manziel in too soon and blowing his psyche.

Re; Pettine. It would matter a lot if he lost the locker room. There would be zero chance of rescuing the season. My hope is that he and the players were embarrassed to the point of fury. They need to get their $#!% together in a major way, but they all need to do it together. It all comes down to execution. We've seen them do it. They didn't do it yesterday. It was putrid and they know it. The penalties alone were enough to flog themselves over, let alone being out of position on D on the runs, not opening run lanes for the backs, dropping balls, and so on... They have to pull it together and, you're right, they have to find the fire to be competitive for 60 minutes, especially when things start to go south. But they all have to do it together, or its just the S.O.S.

We've seen him play in one series in Real Games and he took the team right down the field.

Granted, he blew it with an attempt to run in. He probably should have taken a shot to the End Zone or thrown it away instead of running (we wouldn't be having this discussion had he made it into the end zone and continued to play)

I think he showed he can be effective (in a small sample).

So, if he can play, then he's gotta be the starter.

Afterthought: Had Manziel lit it up, I probably would feel differently.

At this point, You just ride Manziel.

Look Manziel looks 100% better then he did last year. Is he perfect? far from it, but he is at the point now that he won't get any better unless he plays He can't have any teachable coach able moments to learn unless he plays.

McCown should be a mentor, that's what he was brought in here for.

Manziel showed enough Sunday considering he had ZERO time with any of the 1's or anything. Will it be bumpy? absolutely it will be.

However we need to let Johnny Play it out this year. We will never know if he is or is not the answer unless he plays an extended period of time to see if he improves, gets better, etc....he won't do that on the bench.

If Johnny works out, great, if not, you keep the current coaching staff in place and bring in someone next year.

Most of Johnny's problems are from lack of playing time....knowing when to escape the pocket and when to step up is something you only learn through in game experience...

Joe Montana once said when he dropped back he would get a feel for the game by feeling "Color" he never looked as his OL, if he saw the color change from red to white he knew it was time to get rid of the ball....this flow can only be learned by playing and taking your bumps in the game.

Manziel has the "physical tools" to be a QB in this league, all he needs now is more coaching + playing time, you could see coaching alone helped him a lot from last year to this year....now he needs playing time + that same amount of coaching and im hoping he will pan out, but we will never know unless he plays.

The majority of Manziel's scambling problems is from lack of playing time and watching himself on film...he needs to play so coaches can show him on film where he is messing up so they can build from week to week, that won't happen as long as you play McCown....Manziel will never have a shoot at actually succeeding if the fanbase won't let him play and grow.

The fanbase actually needs to be patient and throw Manziel in their for a year or 2 and see how it goes and leave the same coahcing staff in place and ride it out...we will never get better as long as we knee jerk change all the time.
This year should be a year where we

I think caldawg is right.... if McCown can play next week he should start. Let JFF keep learning behind him. He will get another chance soon enough, and I feel a lot better about him after yesterday although I get what you said about reverting to old habits while under pressure.

Mac, you misunderstood me. My comment has nothing to do with Manziel specifically. The organization has a responsibility to put a product on the field that the fans will invest in. Those decisions include decisions for the short-term as well as the long-term, whether that be Manziel or any other type of decision. There is no future with McCown. There is no point in playing him.

Let's say McCown, starting next week, delivers a season of dreams for the Browns and gets them to 10-6. I think most would think that is highly unlikely, but I wouldn't put the possibility at 0% either. It's still unlikely anything more will come of it, and we go into next year with a 37 year old QB and no clear future at the position. I don't think that's good for the long-term vision of the team.

And maybe the players play for each other and not the fans, but the obligation of the franchise as a whole is to the fans. Players play, they don't make the tough decisions. They may not care about the fans, but the rest of the organization better. And if they don't, then get out of dodge.

I will never understand any opinion that believes a professional football organization's obligation is not to the fans. That is so bizarre to me.

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OOPS, thought I was still in the postgame thread

No, this is the postmortem thread.

Manziel is still learning and showed progress yesterday against a tough D. That being said I feel that if McCown is ready next week he should play. He did well in the short time he played yesterday and moved the O. If he didn't fumble and get hurt the game could have turned out much different.

The thing about reverting to old habits is that playing time is the only thing that will make new habits, old habits.

This one is tough. While McCown moved the ball and was solid in the reads/throws, he is still Josh McCown and will find ways to "McCown" things up. The fumble was a very McCown thing to do and there is always risk involved with him at the helm. He is intelligent, but you would think he would learn from the past and not put himself in harms way like he did yesterday.

Manziel needs the opportunity to pass or fail. He really hasn't had that opportunity. I feel that Manziel is more of a problematic player to scheme against from a defensive standpoint and gives the Browns an edge. His mistakes in the pocket are very correctable and his arm is good when he is relaxed. I think the only drive where he was relaxed was the first and we saw those results.

That's false logic, Peen. The actual fallacy is called "Appeal to probability". There is no reason to believe that he can't learn better habits by watching and studying, continuing in the backup role and running the scout team.

If McCown can play, we should start McCown. I don't expect much from this season, but I'm not ready to punt the year just yet. I would imagine Pettine feels the same way. He's going to be on the hot seat, and I doubt he's willing to sacrifice wins just to see what Manziel can do.

I don't think we should assume we are sacrificing wins by playing Manziel.

Probably shouldn't assume we wouldn't either.

From what I've seen from the two of them, I think McCown gives us a better chance to win games. That's just my opinion, but I think our head coach shares that opinion based on the decisions he's made thus far. And I don't think he's going to risk his job just to see what Manziel can do when handed the reins.

Just wait till Austin Davis starts the last game of the season and doesn't completely suck..

Then we will obviously have found our answer...

At the rate we're going, we'll see Davis behind center before we get to division games.

I see it like this. This was the toughest defense Johnny will see all year. He had no first team reps pretty much all camp long. McCown has played on 8 different teams for a reason. Give the kid the start at home against the Titans and see how he does. Keeping McCown out another week due to concussion concerns, gives manziel the start, gives McCown another week to rest without any real commitment.

I hate having a young QB take over a defeatist team. I want to see him take over a team that has something to live for and with a week of preparation.

McCown was brought in to get Johnny ready and I agree with Knight, what the kid needs now is reps. At the end of the year we will know whether we have a QB in Manziel, a backup QB or a total wasted drafted pick. Plus I dont think McCown gives us any edge over johnny as a starter.

An therein lies the rub.

didnt johnny say his arm was acting up through the game? could have swore i saw him switch to his left arm when he threw the ball away. was he trying to save his arm?

Taking responsibility (not just saying he is) is something he rarely does. always an excuse..

He was running to his left, and it's easier to throw the ball away with your left arm than your right when people are chasing you down..

It looked to me like he was simply making sure he didn't throw it to the defender.

ok i will buy that. smart play by him by the way.

They will invest anyway no matter what as they always have; that is what JH counts on before moving to LA or Tennessee. ...easy stepping stone.

Iirc he has another 15 years or so left on his stadium lease. He might go to LA or Tennessee but he ain't taking the franchise with him. Think, man.

He doesn't care about the franchise, only himself.

FWIW, PFF devoted a small article to Manziel's grading:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...an-josh-mccown/

Cleveland Browns QB Josh McCown suffered a concussion early in Sunday’s game against the New York Jets, forcing Johnny Manziel into action much sooner than expected for head coach Mike Pettine.

In Manziel’s unexpected Week 1 outing, he looked solid on his first drive, completing a pair of pass attempts for 67 yards, the second being a 54-yard touchdown pass to WR Travis Benjamin. He also demonstrated the mobility that made him so popular in college on a third-down run that was nullified by a penalty.

The second half did not go well for Manziel, however, as he threw an interception and fumbled twice after holding on to the ball for too long. Those three turnovers led to 21 points for the Jets — which coincided with the final margin of the 31-10 game.

He finished with a disappointing -2.6 PFF game grade on his 52 snaps, including a -2.7 passing grade and +0.5 running grade.

Manziel graded terribly last year in his 79 snaps, but there was still a legitimate argument to give him a chance over McCown based on the fact that McCown had already proven to be a replacement-level starter. He also fared slightly better in the two 2015 preseason games he played in, and you could at least argue he offers higher upside on the basis of his not having played much to this point. That’s still true after Week 1, as he didn’t even see a full game’s worth of action in that one. And to be fair, McCown graded out at -1.3 in just 19 snaps — not exactly a resounding case that he should be starting, either.

It’s unlikely we’ll see Manziel be head coach Mike Pettine’s choice once McCown is ready to return healthy to the field, however — at least based on how he performed Sunday.

He's short and can't see receivers downfield unless he has gaping throwing lanes to see through. They need to roll him out and get him in the open field more often so he can see what's going on. If they don't use plays designed to do that, it looks like he'll create those opportunities for himself and get himself into trouble (as evidenced by the photos provided). He was the backup and didn't get any reps with the starters this week, either. Chemistry with teammates is sure to be off in that situation.

Let's also remember that he still has almost no experience in the NFL and probably still has happy feet. I'm willing to be patient and see if he can learn this season if he continues to play. I also hope his coaches will help him out by calling plays he is comfortable with. Whether he's the next Joe Montana or the next Ryan Leaf, I think we should give him a fair chance this season to prove what he is/isn't capable of.

It always takes painful real game action for fans to realize what I expect FO people and coaches to realize beforehand, because that's exactly one of the big reasons I didn't want Manziel for the Browns. His playing style negates having the best LT in the game and one of the better OL overall.

It was on full display on one of his sacks, when Thomas redirected his man (I think Reilly?) well past Manziel. Put since he didn't see squat in the pocket, he rolled to his right and right into the arms of the DL who was blocked out of the play by Thomas. If you have a QB that doesn't use the pocket, the one's creating the pocket get devalued. Manziel's playing style negates the only real strength of this offense, which is pass blocking. Just great...

Yes, sir. You are correct. But, he's what we have to work with. So, the coaches might as well work with him and do their best to make him and the rest of the offense successful.