The draft is over and Kizer is in the building so I'm posting this here. It comes up all the time in the media. "Hue is great with QBs!" "Hue is a QB WHISPERER!"

Can Hue Jackson really teach DeShone Kizer to be more accurate?

By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com
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May 03, 2017 at 3:45 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- DeShone Kizer possesses nimble feet, a big arm, the kind of size Hue Jackson loves, the sharp mind to process a defense and the inexplicable ability to just miss a throw for no reason.

He's got almost everything. But the Browns' newest quarterback too often doesn't get the ball where he wants it to go.

Can that change?

"Ball placement tends to waver," CBSSports.com draft analyst Dane Brugler wrote in his pre-draft guide, "especially on the move when unable to rely on setup mechanics. ... Inconsistent accuracy on short, easy throws."

Analyst Cian Fahey's in-depth pre-draft look at Kizer boiled Kizer's prospects down to your view of what can be done about his general trouble with accuracy.

"Selling Kizer is easy if you believe that accuracy can be coached. You point to those redzone plays and talk about the mechanical alterations you can make to him releasing the ball. That's a first-round prospect.

"Dropping Kizer is easy if you believe that accuracy doesn't change that much. You point to his inability to make routine throws and talk about the wide open big plays that he couldn't hit. That's a mid-round prospect."

Brugler and Fahey both liked Kizer, more than several other quarterbacks in this draft. Brugler ranked him as his second QB, behind only Mitch Trubisky.

After drafting Kizer with the No. 52 pick in the second round Friday, the Browns talked mostly measurables and traits. He was still available at that pick in part because his inaccuracy at the NFL Combine created more questions about him. Now the Browns and Kizer will enter the debate over how much accuracy can be taught or improved once a player reaches the pros.

"I think you can improve accuracy, there's no question," Hall of Fame quarterback and Denver Broncos general manager John Elway said at the combine. "That's why you practice, why you make the throws, why you work in the off-season. I don't know if you can change arm strength, but there's no question you can change accuracy and work on accuracy."

Cleveland may now be the best incubator in the league for the question. (Brock Osweiler is another big, strong quarterback who throws it all over the place.) Jackson will apply the science of QB coaching. Kizer's future, and in many ways the Browns', is in Jackson's hands now.

Jackson's reputation is that of a quarterback guru, and he and first-year quarterbacks coach David Lee couldn't ask for a better pupil than a nearly 6-foot-5 project with all these necessary skills, and with questions about his accuracy, attitude and consistency.

"We try to create an environment for all our guys to be the best versions of themselves," Jackson said. "We feel like we are pretty good quarterback coaches - myself and Coach Lee. We think we can take a player from A to Z, but how soon that will be, what that will be? Until you have a chance to get out on the field with him, do you really know?"

Jackson and Lee will earn their money this season with this work, and it's already started. Kizer said he made a few changes after the Browns worked him out before the draft.

"I cannot wait to learn from Coach Jackson," Kizer said minutes after he was picked by the Browns. "Even these last couple of months, getting to spend a little time with him, he has been able to make a couple of adjustments to my footwork and to my mentality that allowed me to be a little more consistent and accurate within just a month or two. I can't wait to actually be with them where we can spend as much time together as needed to maximize the potential that I think I have."

The Browns now have two young quarterbacks with distinct traits, with Cody Kessler leaning on his accuracy and Kizer leaning on his arm strength. Kessler said he worked on his arm strength this off-season, but the better chance for the Browns to find a complete quarterback is for Kizer to improve his placement.

Jackson seems to believe there's a way to work that part of Kizer's game, though he talked around the topic when I asked him directly about it after the Kizer pick. There's a limit, though. Here's what scouting director Andrew Berry said when I asked him the accuracy question, in general, at the combine.

"I think that's a good question," Berry said. "Player development is super important in the NFL and there are things across skillsets or quarterback attributes that can be improved to a degree. But there probably is a little bit of an innate ability for a quarterback to be accurate or inaccurate that you may never surpass a hurdle.

"So if you're one of the least accurate quarterbacks in college football, it's probably unlikely that you're going to get to the NFL and be one of the most accurate quarterbacks in the NFL, but that's not to say that aspect can't be modestly improved."

Kizer wasn't one of the least accurate quarterbacks in college -- but he wasn't great. Comparing college stats don't tell you much because offenses vary so much, and some guys throw more easy screens while others throw more difficult deep balls. But by the numbers, Kizer's 58.7 completion percentage ranked 69th in major college football, and his quarterback rating was 31st overall, eighth among the 10 quarterbacks who were drafted.

So that has to be the goal here -- modest improvement.

If Kizer succeeds, it may never be due to pinpoint accuracy. His top-end talent should still lean more on his brains and his size and his ability to escape pressure and make a big play when needed. You may have to live with some misses.

Jackson's goal is to minimize them, and he appreciated the changes Kizer already made.

"I think the beautiful part of it was he was able to take that instruction and improve. I think we saw that in our workout," Jackson said. "That was outstanding. He is very coachable. He wants to work at it, and I think that's what it is going to take. We will find out how good this guy can be over time."

Kizer knows what his issues are, and he said he "absolutely" can get better there.

"I think accuracy and consistency are two good questions that have been asked quite a bit in the past couple of months going into the draft," Kizer said, referencing again the suggestions of Jackson and Lee.

"I am very confident that once I get into their system and I am able to be in their facility with them that those improvements will continue and I will be able to become a much more accurate thrower."

Any major overhauls to a throwing motion aren't likely to stick at this point. When things get rough, most quarterbacks revert to what feels most natural anyway. So the adjustments are more about footwork and anticipating and making sure throws aren't late.

Ian Wharton, a draft analyst from Bleacher Report, believes Kizer's accuracy ranks behind Mitch Trubisky, Patrick Mahomes and Jared Goff, but ahead of Deshaun Watson and Carson Wentz among first-round quarterbacks the last two years.

"He has above-average deep and intermediate accuracy, though he does have to anticipate better on short routes," Wharton said. "Short timing routes give Kizer issues because of his youth and a slow trigger to release the ball.

"When he is inaccurate on short and intermediate routes, it appears due to a disconnect between his readiness to throw mentally and his body alignment. What Cleveland should focus on improving the most is understanding coverages quicker, allowing him to anticipate openings and preparing his body for a faster throw than what he's used to."

Browns executive VP Sashi Brown, at the combine and again after the draft, brushed aside the idea of "pro-ready' and insisted every quarterback needs to develop, and that's the way the Browns were thinking in the draft.

"We talked about that a long time," Browns said. "That is Hue's expertise."

It's time to use it. The expectation probably shouldn't be "much more accurate," though. With everything else Kizer can do, modestly more accurate might be enough.

Jackson should be able to get Kizer there. He has to.

Kizer wasn't on my radar at all. Once the other 3 went I assumed we would go with other positional needs and pick up Peterman, Dobbs or Webb later.

That said, he is now a Brown and I will root for the kid to succeed. The QB position has to be solved for Hue to be successful. Rumors of signing Kap, Cutler or Fitz are strange as I don't see any of them any better than what we already have. And two of them, Kap and Cutler, bring potential issues into the locker room. Brock has shown success and maybe Hue will be able to rebuild his confidence and salvage what Elway believed in. If he is the guy to work with the others than hopefully he is humble enough to step up and be a tutor.

May be time to wish we still had McCown. There is no question he is a great guy to have in the QB room. However, his lack of success in the league may not translate to respect.

If in doubt we have the ammo to move up to 1 or 2 next year and get a guy (or get a FA). I am hopeful between Brock and Kess we at least have solid QB play.

Thanks for posting this article. It is one the best I've read in quite some time. Intelligent analysis w/some great questions. I hope we can have an intelligent conversation, as well.

I could quote many of the comments in the article, but I'll start w/just one:



Kizer's accuracy and decision making are my two biggest concerns. I talked about it a bit in the Kizer draft thread. I don't think it is a question of those issues exist, rather it is a question of can they be fixed.

I agree w/Elway that accuracy can be fixed and that it is hard to improve a qb's arm strength once they get to this level.

Accuracy is often a result of mechanics. Your lower body really influences how hard you can throw and where the ball is going to go. Timing, as in getting all your body parts moving together at the right time, is also huge. Follow through is also huge. There are all kinds of factors.

Many of them can be worked on. Many can be improved. I don't know if I have seen a lot of flaws in Kizer's mechanics and I am going to have delve deeper into looking at them in order to determine just how good/bad they are.

If there aren't too many obvious flaws, it might be difficult to improve his accuracy enough for him to be a good qb. If there are a lot of correctable issues, he could end up being a steal. I do think that there is an innate ability that some people have when it comes to accuracy and I believe that was mentioned in the article.

I also think that it might be likely that Kizer's processing skills, lack of anticipatory skills, and his slow decision making attributes could be huge factors in how this all plays out.

It should be interesting to follow and discuss.

It takes two to tango, there are a lot of gifted QBs who just do not make it. Well the biggest hurdle is do they wish to do what it takes to become Great. To eat humble pie but don't lose that confidence of being the best.

If he is willing to be coached up and from what I heard about his previous coach he is going to love Hue and respect him to do everything asked of him.

Of course only time will tell on the results. I really hope that we keep the QBs injury free this year and let Kizer learn, learn and learn. I'm curious also on the progress of Kessler.

jmho

This is going to be great to witness. I'm stoked at the thought of NOT needing to go QB next year. I pray this works out.

You mentioned it being difficult to project a College QB to the NFL. That's an understatement for sure.

Things to LOVE about Kizer are his pure size and arm.

Things to HATE are that accuracy issue. It seems to be more on the shorter stuff and when on the move. His deeper and intermediate stuff is solid. I'm with Elway. Mechanics and Footwork are fixable and directly affect accuracy and even velocity. Better spin, better velocity.

It's as obvious as the nose on your face that Kessler is NOT our QB going forward. I want him as a long term #2. Which is perfect.

I want Kizer on the field NO LATER than after the bye week. Screw this sit for 2 years BS.

I keep going back to Kizers 77% completion percentage off Play-Action. That's outstanding.

Now. Our defense is going to play a huge part in this. We need to control teams running games. That would go a long way in keeping games close enough to where we won't need to play catch up and abandon the running game. Running game equals PLAY-ACTION passing.

My biggest thoughts on Kizer are much simpler than all of the above, and partly due to the possibilities of his potential as well as his shortcomings:

"How long until we get to see him start a game?"


I cannot believe that this is my first thought on him, especially after my stances on previous QB's, but with next year's Draft likely being STACKED with top-tier QB prospects and our QB future still remaining unanswered, at some point we're going to have to answer the calls to see what he can do on the field so that we know what he has so that we can get a better idea of knowing whether or not we have to spend on a QB next April.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Kizer can answer the bell and become a guy that outright takes the job from the other guys on this roster and leaves no question.... the worst possible thing would be to be nearing the end of the season and still not really have any idea at all of who he is or can be.

What's interesting is that last year when we picked Kessler, I seem to remember comments about him being pretty much a nothing.

But under Jackson, he had a 92.3% Rating, 6 TD's, 2 Int's and a 65.6% completion rate.

Not the worst I've seen, certainly not the best.

But okay.

Did Hue do that? Did Hue get more out of him than someone else might have?

Kid got the hell beat out of him last year. Would better Oline play have allowed him to perform better.

I guess all I'm saying is that this Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer thing may actually be a real thing.

He's got a lot of talent to work with this time. Kizer, Oswieler and Kessler and Hogan.

Should be interesting at the very least to sit back and watch what happens.

Last year, our QBs were taking a beaten. Shoulder injuries from being driven to the ground.

I think the pass protection this year was upgraded big time via free agency. Kessler may give the coaches a reason to not put Kizer in. Do I think it'll happen? Questionable, but I wouldn't rule the possibility out.

If Kessler does well enough to give the coaches reason to not bother putting Kizer in, then I'd say we have all of our questions answered. Kessler would be The Guy and Kizer would be relegated to being The Guy That May Eventually Take Over and there would be no way at all that we take a QB next year.

I'm of the opinion if there is a franchise QB in the draft, it doesn't matter who you have on the roster. If you can take him, you do take him. I don't care if Kizer never plays or does play and looks like a superstar.

Oh, I take him too.

Imagine some day having everyone talking about someone overpaying for a mostly unproven Kizer the way they did w/ Garoppolo, McCarron, etc . . .

I agree on this one. I hope that Kizer is left as the third string QB (if Brock ends up staying here).


I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and they interviewed Sashi, and the first name he brought up was Brock when referring to the QBs. He said there'd be an open competition, but the first name he mentions is Brock.

And he said they were happy with him and he's done everythign asked of him so far in an awkward situation (as trades like this rarely happen). But it sounds like the team is much more eager to give him a chance than before.


But I too am very curious about the progress of Kessler. I think we both agree that Kessler's arm strength isn't necessarily the biggest deal, but getting rid of the ball quicker and having the comfort and willingness to go ahead, take a shot and rifle out a deeper pass. Also, can he stay healthy (which hopefully comes from finding his reading and getting rid of the ball quicker).



As for this article on Kizer, I found it a very interesting read. It sounds like Kizer struggles on the shorter passes, missing passes he should be making, and that some of it might have to do with not being set when he makes the passes and his mechanics. That all sounds like stuff that he can work on.

I still maintain, the most important thing for a QB is the ability to quickly process information, find your read, and release it quickly. This really has to do with mental makeup but also how hard you work. QB requires a big committment if you want to be great, and I think some of that is up to Deshone and how quickly he can mature.

Although, what's interesting was today on that Mike &Mike show, Sashi was talking about how mature Deshone was, and that he was very intelligent. That seemed to be different than Brian Kelly who said Deshone should stay in school to improve on and off the field. Of course, Brian Kelly is probably one of the main reasons Kizer isn't staying in school. He just seems like a blowhard who runs around screaming at college kid and throwing players under the bus. For a kid, I just don't see how he can inspire much confidence in yourself

Agreed. Even if DK does fairly well we should draft a guy like Darnold next year if he looks like a franchise QB. We can always trade DK if Darnold is that good. If DK shows potential with us someone will want to trade for him.

Sure, but only if we're that close to the top of the draft. The trade up cost for a guy like that Darnold is gonna be high I bet

I won't be one bit suprised if Brock Osweiler is the starting QB

Say what you want about Brock, but he has won a playoff game, and been to the playoffs twice....Kessler has done nothing of merit really.

Osweiler is the veteran and most experienced QB on the roster and the only one with playoff experience. He should be the starter, and it should be his job to lose.

If we get the Osweiler of 2015 Browns fans will be very pleased with this guy. It also gives Kizer a year or two to develop and thats a big win-win for us.

Long post inc

Question:

Just based game experience, the ranking order would be Brock, Kessler, Kizer.

Based on knowledge of the system, it would be Kessler, brock(because of experience) and Kizer.

But based on talent/skill set......Kizer takes that lead, with maybe Brock over Kessler or vise versa.

So.....who would you start?

Cause that's the problem I have a feeling it's gonna come down to. Kizer, based on talent and skill set, is probably the best QB on the roster.

There's a real chance he's actually comes out ahead in the competition throughout training camp and preseason.

So do you still sit him? I sure as hell wouldn't.

I know it was a very small sample size, and we don't know what else Hue asked of Kizer throughout the process, but Hue asking Kizer to work on footwork, and Kizer immediately correcting it, says a lot, IMO. Of course fixing throwing mechanics is way harder than footwork, but that at least gives us the reason to believe Kizer is willing to get coached up over mechanics.

And if the mechanics get fixed...oh boy. I mean guys, Kizer is almost everything you guys have wished for on this board. He's 6'4, 220-230, has a cannon arm, is mobile, makes plays in the pocket.

Really it's his accuracy issues. But that can be fixed.

My other question is this: let's say hypothetically he starts Day 1.

What's the stats he needs to put up for us to feel like we don't need to draft one of the top QB's next year?

If he puts up 3200 yards with at least 17 TD's as a rookie.....

All of this is so wrong.

I'd start Osweiler, andy dalton and flacco over Derek Carr too. Guys never even been to the playoffs! Bum

If Kizer plays and we see the progress we're looking for to name him the franchise going forward there's NO WAY I'm taking any QB next year.

We're SET.

I'm selling that QB to the highest bidder and it's going to include 3 First Rounders and MORE.

That's GOLD struck. No. That's PLATINUM struck.

This whole great QB thing next year can change immensely. Few names. Leinhart, Barkley, Watson, our own Kizer. All considered the #1 pick going into their final years. Yeah right.

"His" playoff win was against Connor Cook, a rookie third string QB making his first career start in the playoffs against the best defense in the league.

In 2015 Osweiler was benched in favor of Peyton Manning, a guy who could barely move and ended the season with 17 INTs in ten games.

I'm not one to count my chickens soon but to my knowledge he has peaked every qb he's worked with. He has improved or overachiever their production and their production slipped after him. Coincidence? Maybe.

Very good article.

The things that stood out in watching Kizer are accurately pointed out in this article.

When all is place and he sets up correctly he can rip it and put it on the mark. That is encouraging. His inconsistency and the resulting inaccuracy happens when he breaks down mechanically.

Inexperience was also part of the problem along with his relationship with his head coach.

Hue and Lee may be able to provide a constant and consistent learning environment to correct Kizer's issues.

When you get a consistent message on mechanics you can turn bad habits into good habits.

Kizer seems to want it which is half the battle.

Kizer came out early. He needed the extra year. But he may have gone as far as possible within his situation at ND.

Now he will learn the NFL way. As he gains experience and refines his mechanics who knows how far he can go?

I hope he gets some starts mid way through the season. Unless of course we are winning games.

I have always been told 50% of accuracy is below the knees. 40% mental discipline and 10% is arm mechanics.

guys that have great footwork rarely have bad accuracy but often footwork can be corrected. Trick is can you really maintain what you are being taught its the mental discipl9ine to do it the exact way everytime in the face of adversity.

Most men lose that mental focus when they get popped just once. Guys that hold the ball high and to the ear and really roate through the throw also generally have good accuracy but some guys can throw it from every angle and still get it where they want.

mentally tough to set your feet and drive your throws sounds simple enough until a danny Shelton plants you lol

I think that one thing that everyone is overlooking when it came to QB play last year is how young and inexperienced the team was last year.

All 3 QBs threw mainly to guys in their 1st season in the NFL.

In 2015, McCown completed 64% of his passes at a 7.22 yards/throw average. He threw `2 TD, and 34 INT.

He plummeted last year, to 55%, 6.67 yards per throw, and 6 TD/6INT.

The talent around a QB can impact him a lot.

Griffin also had his worst year as a pro. He hit on 59% of his passes, and threw 2 TD and 3 INT, and barely broke 6 yards/attempt.

Kessler was far better in all regards. I am not saying that he is definitely the answer, but giving a rookie QB a ton of rookie and inexperienced WRs is not the best way to build his confidence, and is absolutely not the best way to help him succeed. In addition to his own issues and problems, he had to worry about the issues and problems the WR corp were having on the field.

J/c

I think Sashi talked Osweiller up because they are trying to find a taker for some of his contract.

+1, can't wait to see what comes out of time off.

Kessler wasn't bad stat wise- Joe T praised his guts and play- with decent line, better Defense so we don't have to chase the score, he could be a better than average QB.

Kiser- he's Jackson's guy physically, he's got the smarts (no dummies get into Notre Dame), coached up by Hue, stated he wanted to be great, like the attitude, now show the work- I want to see him play also once we eliminated from playoffs- but then the sample size will be small and we probably still go QB in draft.

BO- like his size, maybe he does something other than collect his money- time will tell.

Hogan- I'd cut him and get a decent teaching backup like McCown in his place.

Longterm- I'm not against Kessler- weak arm or not, would love Kiser to work out. Always, Go Browns!!!

j/c:

Oh well, the thread sure didn't turn out the way I was hoping. It was a great article and could have sparked some excellent, educational thoughts. However, it has kinda taken on the life form as so many other threads.

jump to the 150 mark, and you can watch his feet and u will know the results of the pass before the ball ever gets there.


I did see improvement from combine to proday. Frankly I thought at times during combine he looked like a Rottweiler on roller skates. Much more fluid at proday.

What I find concerning with Hue is that in 2 years he's drafted 2 QBs.
He might be a better teacher of QBS and adhering a playbook to a QB strengths than a actual qb evaluator.

Maybe. But he's drafted one in the third, and now this year, one in the second. It's not like he's using high 1st round picks over and over again screwing up on QBs

I think you keep drafting QBs till you hit on one. Simple.

Yup... even if these guys pan out, and even if we don't take one at the very top of next draft, don't be surprised if we still grab another in the first three rounds next year, too.

J/c

While reading the article, it stood out to me that the author refers to:

completion %
accuracy
ball placement

What bothers me is that he uses the terms interchangeably but each 1 is different. Imho using those terms interchangeably takes away a little from an otherwise very good article.

Exactly, I mean the Patriots have had Brady forever but they still draft a QB at least every other year, sometimes more often than that.

That is the ultimate scenario...I refer to it as the Brees/Rivers scenario. Except when the time comes (if he progresses to be the best he can be) for Kizer to take over hopefully Kessler will not have shoulder surgery and we can get a pretty penny for him!

jmho

J/c

I think a QB can absolutely improve their comp % through:

understanding/mastery of the offense (better anticipation, hitting the checkdown, faster decision making etc.)
confidence
decision making
consistency in fundamentals
coaching
experience


I think a QB can improve their ball placement:

mastery of playbook + knowledge.......the knowledge of not just 'who' to throw the ball to on a given play vs a given defensive look but also where and how to place the ball i.e. backshoulder, front shoulder, high, low and what pace?

+

reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps, reps,

And when it comes to regular 'accuracy' I think there is only so much you can do outside of the above in this regard. For example I doubt Hackenberg is ever going to be mistaken for Drew Brees no matter how hard he works.

I agree. We have to know about Kiser so we A, don't pass on other QBs in the draft, or B, take other QBs in the draft when we don't need to do so.

I hope he or Kessler grabs the position by the throat and we have an answer.

No doubt there are limits on improvement, but you can improve accuracy, unlike arm strength.

As you said, reps is the key. Work the mechanics to a solid level and keep throwing.

Hey ed.........would you be willing to watch some tape on Kizer and give us your evaluation of why he struggles w/accuracy at times? I think you do a great job w/that kind of thing.

I'd like to hear from some other guys that like that sort of thing. steve? Mourg? Jester? Grimm? Etc....I'll try and do the same.

This could be an educational thread where people can learn. That's pretty cool and beats rehashing the same things over and over.

Here u go whip ...

Cap/pred - let me apologize for the spelling and .....'s ....

Let me start with the positives ..... and this is well known .. nothing really eye opening here ...

- there's not a throw the kid can't make ... he can make them all ... no question .. that won't be an issue ... he's exhibited he has touch and knows when to let loose and when to use touch on a throw ..

- INSTINCTIVE pocket presents ... INCREDIBLE how easy it comes for him .. he has a great "feel" for pressure and makes side stepping pressure while staying in a good position to throw from and he keeps his eyes downfield ... thats a killer for a lot of qb's ... he's GREAT at it ...

- one hell of an athelete ...

- has shown he can throw into tight windows and anticipates throws ... and i mean showed it .. didn't do it everytime .. but he did enough to know its in his skill set ...

There's no reason this kid can't be a well above average and even a great qb .. the PHYSICAL skills are there ... all except for CONSISTENT ACCURACY ... witch is HUGE ...

Now for his story at ND and how we got where we are today ... and guys ... if he figures "it" out ... i will LOVE Brian Kelly for being the douche he is and "ruining" Kizer ... ... Kelly is a GREAT OFFENSIVE mind but an absolute jack ass on the sidelines and how he treats his players during games ...

Tabber I said I'd puke if we took him at 33 ... and i meant it .... well after day 1 .. my bro the Stiler fan and i were making fun of each other saying we were going to take him in rnd 2 ... finally i said (and my bro knows football .. ) that if we take Kizer at 52 he may RUE the day ... at 52 ... hes a GREAT PICK ... very good roll of the dice ... especially with all our picks this and next year ... makes the pick EVEN BETTER ... and I'm fully aware he could be another in the long line of bums ... with his skills .. its well worth the gamble there ..

For those that say Hue is the right spot for him .. there 100% correct ... everyones different ... Kizer clearly responds to coddling not Kelly's BS ... and yes I know there are many styles in between ... and thats OK .. as long as u have a coach that is the nurturing type ... that will bring out the best in Kizer ...

You don't want your qb to be a wuss .. hes not a wuss ... he threw HUGE picks and came back from them ... he led us back MULTIPLE times as our D in 15 was below average while the D in 16 was ATROCIUOS ,,, so i want my QB to be mentally tough ... not 100% sold on his ... i wouldn't have melted down .. i may have strangled Kelly with his headset but i wouldn't have melted down .. *LOL* ...

But the fact he led us back so many times leads me to believe if his coach isn't crapping all over him when he comes to the sidelines ... he may be OK ...

This is a slight worry for me .. but very slight ... I'm way more concerned with WHY he's innacurate and his leadership and how he "gets along" with his teammates ...

Kelly's affect on his 16 season is what CAN'T BE MEASURED ... it simply can't ...

Also may as well state this now ... he did not have the O talent around him he had the year before ... but he had plenty of talent and we actually had more speed then the year before at the WR position ...

We had no one with fullers speed ... but no one does ... hes got world class speed ... but we had two legite FLIERS that could take the tops off d's ... his innacuracy had nothing to do with his wr's, his OL or RB's .. witch were all downgraded talent wise .. but we had plenty of talent around him ...

He arrives at ND and red shirts ... 2nd year he is the back up to Zaire with Golson out of the mix cause he transferred ... game 2 Zaire breaks his ankle ... Kizer throws a last second 40 - 50 yard TD pass to Fuller to win the game ... and were off ...

In 15 he showed he could do it all .. man what an arm ... his accuracy on the other hand .. and this is why i hate STATS .. there so decieving ... after his 3rd or 4th start my brother and I started debating it .. my bro said it was a killer .. i said he missed mostly on his short or intermediate outs and he threw high when he'd have his "stints" ... at that point i thought it was purely mechanical and could be fixed ..

Also in regards to STATS ... someone on here mentioned his completion% on play action .. well Kelly is an ass .. I've NEVER liked him ... always thought he was a 2 year old on the sideline and i did not like the fact he represented my team ... well Kelly maybe a jack ass but he's a great O mind and on play action Kizer had guys running wide open all over the field ... it was like the year RG3 had with the skins .. everyone looked at his comp % and said WOW hes really accurate .. well i remarked after the 5th or 6th game of the season to a good friend that I'd never seen an offensive system work so well cause he had guys running all over the field wide open ...

He'd play a perfect 1st Q ... then he'd miss his next 6 throws and not even be close ... then he'd play dang good the rest of the way ... so I thought it could be fixed ... more than likely mechanical .. cause he was CONSISTENT with his misses ...

Then he started missing wide open recievers mostly on intermediate to deep balls ... and i heard about every one from my brother ... *L* ... and like i said earlier .. he could make some GREAT THROWS ... he'd anticipate a throw to a zone and hit his reciever in the soft spot .. then he'd throw a 35 yard out in between two defenders and drop it right in ... you'd be like .. WOW ... then the next play he'd have Fuller running free down the middle of the field with no one within 10 steps of him ... and over throw him by 10 yards ... then you'd go .. did we put Zaire in for that play .... *LOL* ..... HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE ... *L* ...

He pretty much finished the season like that ... played very well over all but just mind boggling misses to wide open recievers and throwing consistently high for 2 series in a row almost weekly ...

So after year 1 .. if this kid can get the consistency problem with his accuracy and continues to develop we got ourselves a GREAT QB for the next year or two ...

Now the fun begins .... this is way to long all ready ... gonna break it up ...

For both of u still reading .. stay tuned for part 2 tommorow ...

After you finish w/part 2............please join us in breaking down why his accuracy is a problem and if it can be improved. Also, I think the decision making [where to go w/the ball, progressions, speed in doing so, etc] is linked to the accuracy...........so maybe you can address that, too.

No problem .. i think i can watch his tape w/o puking anymore ... there season was almost as bad as ours ... I would dreaded the weekends ..

Saturday would bring a great start and way to many horrible endings ...
Sundays would be worse .. *L* ..

Only thing .. this time u need to do it with me ...

I guess that's Vers and I?

I will. I think it's interesting and it could be like the old days when we really talked football.

Good deal.

I already see 2 reasons for the Mechanical problems.

One play he's got the ball coming from his hip and the next it's coming from his chin. Inconsistent.

Yeah, I wanna hear from you, too.

Just clicking.
http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/20170429/browns-draft-case-for-starting-deshone-kizer

Thanks Diam. Good read, look forward to more.

Did a quick once through of a handful of Kizer's games (Texas, USC, Duke, Miami, Stanford).

Like a bunch of QBS, Kizer is not good rolling to his left.

Unlike some QBs, Kizer can't really throw it from multiple platforms very effectively. If he's out of his slot, his accuracy is generally poor.

I feel like his receivers are pretty good at finding holes in zone, but most run pretty lousy routes (lots of rounding) and have trouble separating from man coverage. This results in him having to try to put it in spots where only his receiver can get it (low and away, etc.) with varying results. Only seemed to really have chemistry with St. Brown and Hunter (who missed half the season)

Had a lot of muddy pockets, and wasn't the greatest at resetting himself. A lot of the time he didn't really have time to. He's generally good at feeling the rush and moving in the pocket, but tries to do to much too fast afterwards at times. Needs to learn that throwing it away in the general direction of a receiver is a better idea than trying to put it on his receivers when he's in an awkward position.

Notre Dame had decent looking rushing stats on the season, but I think it was mainly because opponents almost exclusively playcalled against the pass. Kizer had a lot of weight on his shoulders as the defense was pretty poor due to injuries and suspensions.

Much better throwing to the middle of the field. When he has to open his hips to throw towards the sidelines has a tendency to fall off the ball and not follow through.

Alternatively, he will on occasion when scrambling throw out of rhythm/stride and send it into the dirt.

I'm not sure of a good way to simulate chaos without risking injury, but I think Kizer could use more of it.

On the bright side, he does remind me of a young Roethlisberger. His pump fake is pretty deadly.

He also is pretty good with the ballhandling side of play action, along with his completion percentage when using it.

Can throw great deep balls, though he didn't get as many opportunities without Fuller, and opponents sent a ton of pressure.

I think Hue's system is a great fit for Kizer, especially if the investment in the OL pays off and the running game gets going. I also think if given time to grow together, he and Njoku can be a great combo.

I'm game, would be fun especially if u diam and the others u mention. We doing it in this thread?

Game breakdown/discussion with focus on accuracy?

But which game to start? Already charted 2 but have to find my notes...but willing to start on any game.

I know Vers likes to start with the worst game ... i think thats smart and makes sense ... in this case ... I'd like to start with Texas and go chronologically to see if we can learn anything about how much Kelly actually affected his on field performance ...

Vers ... make sense in this case?

We can throw the NC State (hurricane) game out ... worst coached game I've ever seen ... on both sides ...

QB's couldn't throw the wet ball let alone with the winds .. when they did get it on target the wr's had trouble holding onto to the waterlogged ball by the time ot got there ... *LOL* ...

NC State won cause at halftime there moron coach decided to stick with his running QB and they rammed the ball down our throats while Kelly kept sending Kizer out there and at one point we had 2 or 3 series in a row that were 3 and outs and all passes ... Stubborness is Kelly's 2nd biggest weakness ...

Zaire played one series .. he should have played the entire game ...

Those are my thoughts ...

Vers ... chronological order work for u?

The quality of coaching that Kizer has "endured" at ND could definitely be a factor in Kizer's progress on the field.

For Kizer, going Pro, being around good coaching might be the best thing Kizer could have done to help his career.

Watching Brian Kelly on the sidelines..I've had coaches like him and none of them were good at teaching the game and all were losers.

Hue and the Browns coaching staff could be a huge plus for Kizer...I hope so!

Good post w/a lot of good information. Thanks. I'll be looking for the things you mentioned when I get to watching his videos.

ed and Diam. Whatever you guys want. Starting w/Texas would be good. The thing we have to keep in mind is that he struggled more as the season progressed, right? I also think we might wanna throw out the Hurricane game. No one would play well in that crap. But, up to you guys.

I have a request and I think Jester mentioned this on another thread. I think readers lose interest when you guys do it play by play and say things like rolled right and threw low and away at 2:57 of the 1st quarter.

I prefer to look at the entire game and then try to find patterns or tendencies. Comments like he overstrides w/his front foot too often, or bails from the pocket early when feeling outside pressure, or holds the ball longer than desired. We can come up w/strengths and weaknesses and then classify whether his weaknesses are fixable. Y'all don't have to do it that way, but that is probably the way I'll go. I think we just need to trust one another that we're not gonna make crap up.

I gotta watch the videos because I admit that I got so disgusted w/his accuracy and decision making when watching him earlier this year that I literally stopped watching his games. However, the pick at 52 is kinda growing on me. He certainly has all the physical tools and seems like an intelligent guy. If Hue can fix his issues, we might really have something.

Oh, one more thing. We probably should do it on this thread. The original article brought up a lot of good points and the Draft forum will be closed at some point. This way, we'll have this thread as a reference point during the season if we wanna take a look.

I will be interested in seeing what this brain trust can come up with on this. Accuracy can be improved upon, but it floats on top of many factors in a chain of events before the throw. I would enjoy this breakdown. Can it continue into season like for pre-season games? He must improve some things; Hue can help, but may not cure the kid's QB ills.

Looking forward to it in this thread or its own. Thanks for the work!

Yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like Kessler was the answer by posting his stats.. Everyone here knows them..

I think you have a good point. He comes, the QB's he's in charge of improve, he leaves, and they take a downward trend.

I guess you gotta make of that whatever you will..

j/c:

Here is an article w/some video of Kizer vs Texas. It addresses some of Kizer's issues. Interesting.

What do you guys see?

Sheesh...........I forgot to post the link:

http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams-...wing-mechanics/

Good article and video to show what the author is talking about. The hips opening too soon is definitely a problem. It's the old for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction idea. If he doesn't draw back/load, he doesn't have enough of the forward reaction. Even if he is loading/drawing back, opening too soon causes him to lose all of that by forcing all momentum onto the front foot and therefore into the ground -leaving all arm. It's like punching something/someone or driving a nail. You hit harder if you draw back first. As a high school softball coach, I'm always preaching the load, staying back and then exploding forward at the right moment. I see some similarities here. At least from the videos in the article, this seems like a correctible flaw.

Here goes part 2 ...

So after year 1, I'm very optomistic .. he can do it all and it appears the inconsistencies with his accuracy issues can be resolved ... at least on the outs ... and I'm thinking working with Kelly over the spring and summer would bring improved consistency and we'd have more than likely the best QB in all of the land ... needless to say it didn't work out quite like that ... *L* ...

Kelly for some inexplicable reason decides to have a QB comp. .. no clue why .. Zaire only started 3 games and played the 2nd half against USC 2 years ago .. and that man could not hit the broad side of a barn ...

Now that doesn't really hurt with his personal development ... he still has plenty of time to work with Kelly on that ... and if the pressure of competition is to much then he is a wuss and is more than likely not going to be able to handle being an NFL qb ... where it does hurt is with him working with his recievers and getting only half the reps with them ...

How much did that hurt ... can't quantify it but it certainly didn't help ... and it really HURT IN THE FALL ... same thing ...

And I'm not making excuses for the kid .. a few of u wanted to go deeper than the pundits do .. well this is how it happend and my thought proccess throughout it ..

Now the season starts ... we lose to Texas and he plays well ... Zaire plays one series n each half . He may have played 3 ... it was obvious to anyone with eyes that his should have NEVER BEEN A COMP .. EVER .... how much did the reps he took away hurt? ...

we crush Nevada and he plays great ... guys running wide open all over all day ... then it starts to go downhill ...

MSU was not pretty ... but we got beat up by a better team .. our OL could not handle there DL .. at least thats what i remember ... i look forward to breaking that game down ... and just so u know .. i only watched this years games once as a fan ... never watched to break it down .. couldn't stomach watching even the wins more than once .. *L* ..

After MSU it starts to happen ... this is the scenario in a 5 or 6 game span of the next 7 games .. not sure if it started in week 4 or 5 ...

1st Q we'd come out and march right down the filed with zero problems on the first 2 or 3 series ... then we'd get progressively worse for the rest of the game ... I've never seen anything like it ... it was also when Kelly started to get rougher and rougher on the sidelines with Kizer ... in one game very early on I said to my bro as they came off .. look at Kizer he's literally going out of his way to avoid Kelly .. then you'd see kelly basically chasing him down and sitting next to him on the bench ...

You could see Kizer literally melting down whenever Kelly "talked" to him ... and thats one of the mysteries .. cause he'd start off great and then get worse along with the team the rest of the game ..

From that perspective it was horrible for him ... but he did not play well .. all his innacuracy issues were there and on top of that BAD DECISIONS all of a sudden became a problem .. not sure how much of that is on Kelly but Kizer was clearly "forcing" things ...

Thats how the season unfolded ...

Most of u know me .. ACCURACY is #1 in my book ... if Hue has to fix 15 Kizer's mechanics his accuracy can improve .. Grimm pointed it out on the sideline throws in 16 ... something about opening up his hips ... i never watched Kizer throw to break it down .. will be one of the things i look for as we go through the tapes ... will look for a bunch of things Grimm pointed out in his post ...

The only reason I have hope for him even though he had accuracy issues is I believe there fixable mechanically ... thats obviously not easy and not a given ... usually i don't think your going to change accuracy much after college ... in THIS CASE I believe it may be possible .. and if it is . He's got al the PHYSICAL tools to be a really good qb ...

That brings me to his leadership and how teammates view him and his MENTAL MAKE UP ...

I question his mental make up cause of how he melted down ... he's young .. prolly the first time he ever faced criticism much less like that ... we won't know about that until he faces adversity in a game .. and he handled that well in 15 ... and in 16 ... like in that streak of great q1 and then lose the lead and play cruddy .. Miami looked like that but he played very well and after Miami took the lead he led us back not once but twice if i re-call correctly ..

As for his "leadership" and how his teammates view him ... not very highly .. I've heard he got along with everyone but no one was fond of him .. he wasn't popular at all ... very cocky and self centered is the word i get ...

He's young .. hopefully that changes ...

He's in an environment to do it ... Hue and his style are perfect for him .. but hue best not cal him out in public like he did Cody last year ... that would be HORRIBLE for Kizer's mental make up until he gains some of his confidence back ...

Oh and this is important also .. Kizer obviously left cause of Kelly ... he should not HS be gone back unless him and Kelly cleared the air ... cause from a draft slot perspective if he came back .. all the young recievers are a year older .. the OL was young last year and will be better .. the RB situation is in GREAT HANDS ...

If he went back and IF he won the starting job ... not sure its possible for him not to put up better #'s because of the improvement of those around him ... thats the thing that makes this so different from anything ever for me .. i think he could become a very good nfl qb while at the same time knowing if he returned to ND it was prolly 55/45 he won the job ..

I like the idea of keeping it in here ... thats fine by me ..

I like your idea of concepts ... i really like it combined with examples (and for me its not trust .. i like to see for myself and see what u do so I can understand it or disagree with it .. *L*) ... i either trust someone or i don't .. you and i are both a lot of things but liars ain't one of them .. hopefully you've realized that about me by now .. ...

Just wanted to clear that up .. it has zero to do with trust from me .. its understanding/learning and asking questions and disagreeing ....

Example of what i would like to see ...

Last time Ed and I did it ... it looked something like this ...

- .48 great throw on and out ..

-1.29 really bad pass into coverage ...

I agree thats not good ... here's what i think may make sense ... let me know your thoughts ...

We give our game synopsis .. then we get to the points ... lets say i conclude he missed on 5 throws ... 3 cause of open hips .. so that would look like this ..

- he missed 3 throws due to opening his hips .. 1:18 ... 3:15 .... 6:12 ...

Hmmm .. not sure thats gonna work either ... sounded better in my head than it looks on here .. *L* ...

Guess we can figure that out when we get into it ..

ED u ready ... i am and i think Vers is ... vers .. u ready ...

Lets start with Texas if thats OK with you Ed ... also u good going chronologically .... let us know and we'll get rolling ..

and PLEASE ... I'd love to see EVERYONE participate in this .. well almost everyone ... *L* ..

Diam, think about Everett Golson. How much did he deteriorate under Kelly? Why did he transfer to FSU? I remember seeing him damn near cry with Kelly yelling in his ear.

Kelly is a total a-hole. But when I was in college, I had a total a-hole of a research advisor. Totally demoralized every one of his students, maybe save one. But I'll tell you what, by the time I got to my job after college, I didn't crumble under challenges from the managers and directors the other members in my department considered "harsh" and "tough." Maybe a little bit of a "Boy named Sue" effect. I'm wondering if Kizer won't have the same effect after doing his time at Notre Dame. Here's to hoping.

Kizer is very young. He just turned 21. I used to see him walking back to the sidelines and Kelly would just tear into him. Some people just aren't meant for that. Especially guys who maybe are tough on themselves.

At my job, i'm that way. When I was third mate, training to do the job, I had a Chief Mate and a Captain who were that way. I don't mind some criticism, but I also like just a little bit of positive reinforcement. Sounds stupid, especially since I know this about myself. But I can't just be broken down, I like a little reassurance, knowing that there's some hope. I got away from that boat as fast as I could (and left with the Captain saying it would have been better if i stayed on their boat for a little longer before taking a promotion. Little did he know, he's the reason I applied for the promotion in the first place). Went to another boat, and got myself what I was better with. Criticism but also some re-assurance that I was at least getting better. Now, I'm pretty good at what I do, and if I want it, I could get another promotion too.

At this point, I'm 32, and was going through this at 27 years old. I hated it, I was terrified of making any mistakes and I didn't feel welcome/any appreciation from my superiors. Put in a different environment, I flourished. I'm happy and I think i'm pretty good at my job. I was never a natural or anything, but I figured it out.

DeShone was 20 years old last year, getting reamed out Live on NBC watched by god knows how many by Brian Kelly, lol. It's not easy for a kid that's probably been told he's the greatest thing since sliced bread until he faced adversity in 2016.

IMO, the best thing for him is to start the season on the bench, watch the guys around him, work on his technique and his understanding of the offense, get comfortable living in Cleveland with a new NFL Lifestyle (instead of college), and build his confidence back up. A red-shirt season. If Cody & Brock & Hogan all look like failures, we can use another high pick on a QB. DeShone was picked 53, he's the fourth guy our team selected. A guy who is a high potential project. If it works out, wonderful. If not, it's not the end of the world. And if we pick up a high 1st round pick QB next year, we can only decide who's the best and trade the other as DeShone's contract starts running out

I just don't think it's smart to send out some just turned 21 Rookie QB, that's trying to get his confidence back, and put him in the frying pan against NFL Defenses that are going to know this and blitz the heck outta him.

Good stuff vers ... thanks for sharing ...

Great point Steve ..

And your 100% correct ...

I told my brother 1/2 ways through year 1 ... if i was Swarbuck .. Kelly would be brought in and told he had a 1/2 a year to improve and by the end of next year u have to behave like a man ... for a bunch of reasons .. for me .. the most important one .. your teaching young men how to behave .. they can't behave like that ... hes setting a horrible example ..

Swarbuck waited til after the year and Kelly was told to tone it down .. amazingly enough what u saw the last couple years he did ... he was BRUTAL to Golson and Kizer but he was worse his first year ... not so much to the dude from Cali that got hurt or Rees who took his place .. but the rest of the team got BLASTED for every mistake ...

Golson was different .. he had his own set of issues ... i was very connected then .. my source wasn't in the room but he was heavily involved in an area that was in the know ...

No doubt Kelly did not help him .. but Golson had an interesting stay at ND to say the least .. I can't put this one on Kelly .. w/o knowing what i do I would make the same conclusion as u ..

My guy retired 3 years ago ... i begged him not to ... *LOL* ..

Pete

Agree with everything u said ... especially about personalities and how u criticize people .. Kelly's problem is .. in the heat of the moment ... he BERATES and HUMILIATES .. thats way different than criticizing ...

We'll see how Kizer responds ... hes young ... how will he handle it .. it may make him stronger like it did u .. hopefully it does .. cause if it doesn't .. he won't ever be good in games .. *L* ..

I just can't imagine that. National Television, getting reemed out by a coach, being 20 years old. He'd come off a great year on a much more talented team, to a much less talented team, and everything is going wrong on one of the most watched teams in the nation. So he's already frustrated and upset, and then you have Kelly doing his thing.

Kelly doesn't recognize that these are kids. They aren't professional athletes. It's not their fault that college football has become the business it has. I mean, at 20 years old, I was still working up the courage to lose my virginity. This kid's failures are being broadcast on National Television with a close up of his Coach screaming at him.

It's just idiotic. I couldn't imagine going through that. Kizer needs to grow and mature, but no way could he go back to Notre Dame, and he'd have to wait a year to transfer. I wish there was a way to RedShirt guys in the NFL

Here's another good one.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/02/2017-nfl-draft-player-profiles-notre-dame-qb-deshone-kizer/

I'm surprised Tom House's name hasn't come up yet.

I suspect DeShone woke up every morning with thoughts of Kelly's veiny red face in his grill. Must have been very depressing. I agree with the post that this could work out in our favor. Kizer may be able to deal with adversity much better. Being treated like a human being will be good for him.

Title of the thread is Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer. Wonder if there should have been a ? at the end. One year of Andy Dalton not throwing insane interceptions does not usually make a QB Whisperer. Maybe he is, but what is the body of work behind this borderline myth? I do agree he has a good temperament, leadership, and sense of integrity. If he develops us one franchise QB then by all means, I'll kiss his ring.

jc

I have to say this is one of the best threads I have read on here for a long time. Not being a football player, the break down on why certain actions by the QB can have an impact on the throw is enlightening. For the first time in a very long time I have a spark of hope for our team. I hope this spark ignites a fire that leads us to respectability in the NFL.

I hear ya, I (don't want to speak for diam) but when doing a game breakdown I think it's important to start with simply charting each play because it gives a context to how often the specific areas of evaluation occur and when (via time stamp) allowing those specific plays to be discussed (I will gif those plays time permitting)

But..it also can be summarized as below:

Clemson vs Auburn 2016

Under pressure plays: 10, 33, 43, 241, 328, 357, 617, 656, 800, 848,
muddy pocket: 126, 134, 258, 433, 953, 1007

Evasion plays: 38, 241, 258, 423, 739, 928
Plus displays of arm talent: 10,220, 310, 331, 458, 531, 630, 800, 848, 1007
Improvisation: 739
Plus progression/cov read: 258, 357, 408, 458, 1007
Movement throw: 33, 739, 909
Run instincts: 601

Held ball/missed receiver: 18
Off backfoot: 848
Off target: 18, 33, 126,134?, 157, 357, 408, 617
Bad Decisions: 43, 126, 656
Tipped: 712
--------------------------
Since the intent is to focus on accuracy there will be specific areas to evaluate.

What areas warrant being examined?

Only speaking for myself, but I'll read every word of you guys' breakdowns of Kizer's games. Play-by-play or more summarized... I'll read it all. I'm excited to learn from you guys.

Okay, that's fine. I would go nuts doing that...LOL.........but, I think between all of us we can kinda weave our thoughts on what we see together and get to the bottom line, which for me is ...

What do we think is correctable, what could be correctable, and if there are things that probably won't get fixed? I haven't watched enough yet to make those determinations, but I did see one thing in that Texas game from the link I posted that I think Hue and his staff can fix. Watch his front hip and how it opened up. I think that can be fixed, but I gotta watch more.

One more suggestion..........I think we need to stop blaming Kelly for all his problems. Everyone kinda knows that Kelly is an ass, but we should probably focus on Kizer's mechanics, decision making, processing speed, accuracy, and ability to quickly make reads. Those are the things that will determine whether he makes it or not. We know he has the physical tools.

This should be fun.

Hell, join in the fun, oober.

Since the aim here is a focused assessment on accuracy then a complete game charting/breakdown isn't necessary.

But, I think specific traits which we feel are important in terms of accuracy and for me those are:

number of off target passes

number of passes with 'plus' ball placement (i.e. throwing a receiver open, backshoulder, leading a receiver away from defender/big hit)

number of snaps of poor mechanics (stance, ball carriage, follow-through, arm angle) maybe this could be broken down further into categories?

Anyhow these are my thoughts, what are you guys? e.g. Vers comment on having his hip was open/closed could be mentioned under mechanics....

+1

+1

I'm good. I have the Texas (2016 right?) game already charted just gotta find my damn notes, lol. But i'll re-watch with the focus on just plays that speak to accuracy without listing the whole game charting.

Amen... And then you draft late round QBs every other year trying to find good backups/replacement

we've drafted a guy in the third round and now second.... If neither are good I hope we draft another next year... You keep looking until you get your guy....

Hey ed..........you are very good at what you do. I was just making suggestions so more people would read and respond. Do whatever you are most comfortable with and what feel is most important. That is kinda what I meant by the "trust" thing. That, and no should make crap up because they either think the FO sucks or is great. Just honest football conversation.

Not sure if I am communicating this right..........just do what you think is best. You're good at it. I respect your opinion and that is why I asked you to join in.

I do think we should include decision making, processing, reads, etc because I have a hunch that they might be tied to his accuracy issues. Does that make sense?

Okay, here is what I saw in the Texas game:

Strengths:

--Nice touch on most throws, whether they be short, intermediate, or deep.

--Decent pocket presence. Does not abandon pocket early on almost ever play. On my chart, I only had him leaving the pocket too early twice.

--Strong runner who squares shoulders upfield.

--Impressive arm strength.

--At times, displays good lower body mechanics where he squares hips to target.

--Did not see too many plays where his decision making was slow.

Concerns:

--Saw several throws where his lead hip got way out in front of his body. Way too far out to the left. This caused his arm to get outside of the throwing frame and balls typically nose-dived before intended target.

--This one was new to me. His back foot really lifts up off high off the ground and flares out to the right on several throws. This results in a loss of accuracy because arm is way out in front of his lower body.

--Has a tendency to overstride w/front foot. On those occasions, the ball sailed high.

Summary:

Overall, a very good game for Kizer. Made some very good throws and runs. Was productive. There were some mechanical concerns that we will have to keep our eye on.

Looking at it from a baseball perspective, he is sorkscrewing his torso. His front foot looks pretty good, in a closed off position, but his back leg swings out to much, causing him to open up. Looks like a overthrower to me. I would have him practice all the throws but have him throw at 75%. Take a little off the ball to tighten up the back side, meaning get the back side in time with the front side.

Kind of the same with golf. Guys overswing, the right side takes over and beats the left side to the finish line. That leads to bad shots. The right side can't simply push the left side out of the way.

Good pitchers and golfers don't put 100% on every throw or shot. They go maybe maybe 80-90 % .

Hue has to get this kid comfortable and confident in knowing his arm is good enough he doesn't have to heave it as hard as he can on every throw.

That 1st video with Texas says alot.

I don't like that Right Leg Kick. At all.

Now to compare ME to Kizer I went out into my backyard with my Son in Law with the NFL football sold today. I threw about 40 passes to all depths left, right and center to see where my right foot ended up on each throw.

I noticed a couple things. Throwing HARD and even softer (80%) to the center of the field and to the right (I'm right handed) my right foot NEVER came off the ground. It felt natural and was easy.

Throws to my left had my foot end up on my tippy toes. Again, it felt natural and easy. So I conciously SQUARED UP and it stopped.

So that aspect is easily fixable with REPS. I correlate that to Muscle Memory.

In addition, ALL my throws were 10-20 yard types. ALL we're DARTS.

So I purposely tried to mimic Kizer and the severe right leg kick.

Guess what? 2 things happened.

I lost velocity. ALOT of it.

And I'll be damned. The nose of the football started DIVING on me. So much so that my normal motion was consistently hitting my boy at chest level and above. Doing the right leg kick made every pass sail BELOW his waist.

I had to stop before my arm fell off. Lol. I'm not 25 anymore.

Definitely something there and definitely fixable.

Peen. That's a good analogy about Golfing. Hips go first.

Diam. Does Kizer GOLF frequently? Serious question.

Muscle Memory.

Here's another thing I see.

He sets up nicely, but he's got the ball below his chest.

I think if he gets the ball up higher on set up 2 things can happen.

Quicker Release.

Less time for his hips to open up ahead of his throwing motion.

j/c

Is there a preferred source for these game films? I'm not likely to chime in as I'm no guru here, but I'd like to see what you guys are commenting-on.

Also, is the right leg kick issue a reason why Hue had him throw with his feet closer together? (I think that was suggested to Kizer at the combine.) That change was reportedly very effective for him but I never read what that change was supposed to do.

Here's the site I think most people are using:

http://draftbreakdown.com/players/deshone-kizer/

Maybe Kizer needs to get in the yoga studio with Joe. He might be able to work on his balance and staying grounded (meant with regards to his feet/base, but maybe the millenial comments, too) there.

The leg kick is pretty prevalent now that I'm looking for it. Finishing his throws is the area he appears to need to focus on the most.

Thank you.

DeShone Kizer's last game at Notre Dame showed what's right and wrong with him: Doug Lesmerises

Lots and lots of GIFS, worth taking a peek at:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

In 3rd's article, in the GIF named Kizer 9, he makes a beautiful pump fake that causes the CB to break and opens the receiver for the deep pass.

Then in Kizer 10, the right leg thing.

My thoughts are to roll with Kizer out of the gate! Why?
Let’s see what we have and if he improves?
If he isn’t the guy you hoped for then you quickly move on in spite of his record this is the time to find out.
Left out I believe from a development perspective and the key I believe to his development is a strong running game and cut the field up into 4 areas it will lesson his need to read the entire field and allow his confidence to grow.
As important as development is confidence and accuracy are its equal, keep his reads down to area’s stack the routes short middle deep in areas of the field if those areas aren’t open heave the ball in the seats. Keep it simple and let him learn to set to throw to areas.
The developing of a QB is as much about the design of the offense as anything. He can excel I believe in an offense that suits his strengths and improves his overall accuracy and builds confidence at the same time.
I too like the idea of not forcing a QB to play but this isn’t the time to play around let him take his lumps if he gets it by seasons end great if not you move on to next year’s draft and his record should put us at the doorstep of getting the top prospect in the draft.
No time to waste with a guy that has ??? hanging over his head it’s time to make a move up and without a QB your screwed.
The only way to ay tat with any confidence is to play him NOW.
JMHO

I almost agree with that. Still you don't want to throw him in to the fire to soon. Thats how we ruined other QB's. Now if the Coaching staff deems him ready then by all means. I agree with your theory just not sure about the action needed.

I have no problem with others not agreeing I just can't see us spending the time and expending resources on a QB when we have the ammo to get one in the next draft that has a much better chance at success.

If I had any objection to any QB in the 1st round this year, its if he is truly worthy then you take him #1 if he is a wait and see prospect IMO he is a luxury pick. When it comes to this team projects at that position aren't viable because lets be honest we are desperate so we just can't wait they are either up to the job or there not.

It may be that in 2-3 years they make it????

Do you want to wait??? Not me its sink or swim I am tired from waiting...

Its not just that either its we need to know to a certainty come next draft do we move up and get a guy or do we stand pat and continue the project. It has zero to do with his record on the year and everything to do with does he have it and can we round him into a viable franchise QB?????????

So am I right??? But I don't wait... Not this time

I'm not well versed in the nuance of throwing mechanics so I hope to learn more as this discussion goes forward. I did however come across an article this morning that takes plays from several games and the writer talks about traits that were good or bad in each clip. This might be useful for this discussion.

Kizer - film room analysis

--Saw several throws where his lead hip got way out in front of his body. Way too far out to the left. This caused his arm to get outside of the throwing frame and balls typically nose-dived before intended target.

Hey Vers, like I said I don't know a lot about the mechanics of throwing. I'm having some trouble envisioning this flaw, not because it doesn't exist but because I don't know what to look for. Can you give me a game and timestamp from a Draftbreakdown clip that demonstrates what you're talking about?

If its easier use one of the Gifs that are in the article I posted earlier that might demonstrate the same flaw.

I understand your logic in wanting to start him out of the gate ... we need to know NOW what we have ... problem is this ... if we put him out there too soon we will never truely know what we have ... just because we need to know now, its not going to speed up his proccess .. and he has ALOT TO WORK ON ...

You can't rush him just because it doesn't fit our schedule ...

And I'm with Ed and Vers and need to make sure ... Kelly is not the only issue .. not even the main one IMO ... he may have hindered Kizer in his development because he left him with no confidence .. but his mechanical flaws were there in 15 ...

In 15 he threw high on outs specifically an awful lot ... he also started missing guys wide open down the middle of the field ...

So this mechanical flaws were there and have zero to do with Kelly .. other than they didn't get fixed .. if Kelly couldn't see the things we do ... not only is he an a-hole hes not very good at his job ..

Then we need to draft someone next year regardless???

In hind sight having too many is better then the nothing we appear to have now.....

Good question: Here are a few. Watch throws 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, and 11. Notice that most of the throws were to the left or over the middle to a WR running from the offensive left side. They go really fast and you have to pause them at just the right time to see the front hip open too much and how his arm gets too far out to the right. A lot of these balls sailed high on him because he is unable to follow through properly.

Also, check out this article I posted earlier: http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams-...wing-mechanics/

It might be easier to see because of his explanations and the timing.

One more thing I want you to look for...Watch how often his right leg kicks up and out to the right. That has to be fixed.


In fact, for anyone who is interested..........stand up right now and pretend you are throwing a football. Pick an imaginary target, such as a picture on a far wall. Notice how your front hip opens up just enough so it is aligned to your imaginary target and how your toes and the ball of your right foot stay on the ground. Feels good, right?

Now.......use that same target, but instead of stepping directly toward the target, step further out to your left w/your front foot. Notice how your right shoulder dips and your elbow is lower. Follow through like you are throwing and notice how your arm goes across the target from right to left. That means your release point is going to be whacked and you will more than likely throw the ball high. You can compensate w/perfect timing and that is why some throws will be good, but it sure to lead to inconsistency.

One more thing to add to that.....Step too far out to the left again w/your lead foot [provided you are right handed] and take your back foot completely off the ground and kick it out to the right. You can feel how off-balance you are.

Kinda cool, huh?

Works even better with an actual football in your hand.

I never thought about doing it until yesterday when I did it.

Fascinating​ what you see when you duplicate what Kizer does.

Yeah, I was just thinking about your earlier post.

Kizer has to have amazing arm talent, because that particular motion is so whacked that it's amazing that he can be as accurate as he is at times.

And again, he doesn't always do it. But, he does it far too often, especially when throwing to his left.

I think Kizer might be the most complete QB we've drafted since Brady Quinn. I like his ceiling.

And that will be the million dollar question at the end of the year ...

More than likely ... cause if Kizer wins the job or is forced into action ... he needs time .. if he does play .. my guess is he will make some throws that make u crave for me ... then he's gonna do some things that make u think u never want to see him play again ... *L* ...

He could surprise me and get in and play really well .. i just don't see how ...

Hue will have a year to work with him .. so he will have a lot more info on witch to base if we need to take one in the top 1/2 of rnd 1 or we can wait til later ... Hue is simply going to have a lot more info than what we see on Sundays ... Pre-Season is a joke for evaluating QB's unless they STINK ... then u know your in trouble .. *L* .. a qb playing wel in pre-season means almost NOTHING in the grand scheme of things ...

almost***

i'm not saying kizer will do as well, but Dak prescott had a beast pre-season that clearly carried over into the entire regular season and into the playoffs, when everybody was saying that he wouldn't be able to replicate his success in preseason.

If you are a coach, and you want a person to succeed, you should allow him excel at what he is good at FIRST - you cater to those traits. You should introduce complexity, elements the person is not comfortable with from a base of confidence, performance, comfort level. I have never understood the square peg in a round hole with QBs. Unless they are truly special and have the mental make-up of a potential great. If I'm a betting man, I go with the former approach. Even then, I think I still go with the build from the ground up.

I think I'm starting to get it now. Especially when I mimic a QB'a throwing motion. A simpler way, for me anyway, to describe it is that his feet seem too far apart when he making his release on these passes. The back foot comes up preventing a significant amount of lower body power from being transferred into the throw. Also, his lower body is at times not aligned with his target again affecting the accuracy of the pass.

BTW, while reading up on this throwing mechanics issue I've heard the term, "soft front leg" used several times. My question is this. Does that mean not locking out the knee of the lead leg before or during the release of the ball?

Something else that I see is that he keeps the ball high and delivers the ball with an overhand motion most of the time. When he gets behind in a game he presses by lowering the ball and having a more elongated release. That can't be good.

jc...

It all depends on how Kizer progresses..and only Hue is going to know when Kizer is close to being ready.

Throwing Kizer into the fire believing that is the best way for him to learn is rather short sighted. This is what we pay coaches to do..to teach, to develop players, to prepare players to succeed.

Throwing Kizer into a starting role before he is ready can do more damage than good.

Also, with Kessler and Ossie on the roster, there is no hurry to push Kizer onto the field ASAP.

..just let Hue do his thing and work Kizer into the starting job when he is ready..

...jmho..mac

Uhmmmm bro..........are you going to look at some of his tape and give your opinions? LOL

Are you seeing what I'm seeing?

Btw----------there is no way Kizer should start until Hue fixes the mechanical issues he has. I think they might be fixable, at least what I've seen in a very limited sample, but there is no way he can go out there w/those flaws and succeed in the NFL. Hopefully Hue can work some magic and Kizer has the desire to learn.

Hopefully, they give the majority of reps to Kessler & Brock through the summer and then have Kizer doing nothing but working on his fundamentals..... and if he can get those down, then set him loose on a legit competition and let him start as soon as he can take the job away from the incumbent.

Another good post by you. I think it's cool you want to learn.

Soft front leg? I never used that specific term. But, your description makes perfect sense because I do know that you don't want to play w/a stiff front leg. LOL...Sorry, I used that term a few years ago to describe Mettenberger and steve gave me some good-natured ribbing. Having a stiff front leg will cause the ball to sail high and it makes you more prone to injuries.

I really haven't noticed that too much yet, but I'll be sure to watch for it now that you brought it to our attention.


guard, I think he drops the ball because of what we were talking about earlier.........when he opens up that front hip too much and out to the left, it automatically causes your shoulder and elbow to drop. You could probably feel it when you tried it earlier.

KWhip brought up a good point earlier. He spoke of muscle memory. It's hard to break. Most of us have probably experienced it one sport or another. There is a tendency to slip back into what feels comfortable when there is pressure to perform. I think it's going to be interesting to see what Hue and company can achieve w/Kizer.

Yeah.........I'm starting to come around on this pick. I think the guy has a lot of potential and while I question Hue's ability to evaluate qbs, I do think he is a very good teacher and he is the right guy to coach Kizer.

We might actually have something here. I gotta watch more tape, though.

Btw----------if anyone is interested.............3rd and 20 posted a very good article earlier. It's out of the order we agreed on, but who cares? It's a good breakdown. Here is the link again for those of you who enjoy learning:
http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

J/C
Terrific posts, thanx Kwhip and Diam for the time and energy.
I think Kizer needs QB coaching, Reps and Pre-season games. Funny how a lot of people think pre season is useless, well I think they are learning opportunities for players development. I like the pick, and I think he is the future.

Lot of interesting posts here about throwing mechanics. Thanks guys. A compact hip and leaning forward are two key parts of throwing a baseball, football or hitting a textbook forehand or backhand when hitting a tennis ball.
Prison: if he shows up at TC and by the end is the obvious #1, roll with Kizer, perhaps. But I'd prefer to sit him to start the year and see how things go. He's just a kid, half the damn team are kids: we are in no big hurry.

By leaning forward I meant 'good follow-through'.

Good post.... I think this is something that you can easliy work on... Someone posted earlier about yoga and frankly that'd be wise... The flare and opening of the hips is due to lack of core and balance.... He's losing a lot of his power because it's seeping out by opening his hips and losing his balance... If he can get stronger in his core the. He should be able to stay more compact and increase his power/velocity...

I agree that he is losing a lot of power on certain throws. Vers mentioned his throws to the left. I'd go a bit further and say throws to the left flat are a particular adventure for him at this time. Overall I think his arm strength is good to slightly above average. When he throws in rhythm he gets good zip on the ball he can drive the ball into tight windows but at times when he has to reset his feet his flaws show up that's when A) he under throws guys or, B) he's just inaccurate as all hell.

You can just tell, when he has his feet in a good line and hes not throwing from a wide base with that wild right leg, thats where you get his best throws. When he is stepping in the bucket or taking that giant step forward, that is where you get the inaccurate throws.

Vers, couldn't agree more. I think there is some real potential here. Basically, my assessment Andy Dalton with arm strength.

By the way, that link doesn't work.

Yeah. I get 404 Not Found.

j/c

I can't remember what I was watching, but it was Hue/RG3 mic'd up during one of last year's games. You can tell Hue is a QB guy ... like all of his focus was on the RG3 when he's watching the O. He was also very calm and understanding .. that patience will be needed with Kizer IMO. Obviously Kelly's in your face approach made Kizer worse.

Try this:

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

It's interesting because I viewed his first game against Texas and then there is this game against USC, which was his last. Go to the last Giphy........it's Kizer 13. Notice:

--the front hip opens too much
--the stiff front leg
--the dramatic kick w/his right leg
--the ball nosediving into the ground

Same three mechanical issues as in the first game. I think Hue starts w/those three areas, and they are pretty much linked.

Another thing I have noticed. Notre Dame's OL gave him some nice big pockets. What interesting to me is when USC got pressure, notice how Kizer makes some good moves in the pocket, only to make really bad decisions and/or throws. It's like he breaks down mentally when pressured. I think that was the case in the UT game, too......but, I gotta go back and look.

If that is a real issue, it might not be fixable like the mechanical issues we have previously pointed out.

My impression was that it's more a matter of him trying to do too much after avoiding pressure than it is an inability to handle it. I think his issue is correctable. It's up to him to put in the work. His mechanical issues tend to flare up in these situations as well so I think it does all tie together some. I have seen the ability to stare down the barrel and deliver on spot passes. Kizer is young, and Hue can hopefully help him tighten everything up.

Kaaya's the guy whose pressure issues I don't think can be fixed.

They didn't even throw Ben to the wolves game one.

Let it come in due time. No need to rush

Duh. They had Tommy Maddox!

They also had a pretty darn good Oline, Dline, Defense and offensive weapons like Bettis.

I don't know what we have at this point., Tommy Maddoxx was a first round pock of the Broncos and never really had much success until he got to pittsburgh and even then it was marginal.

I hope the steelers have a long line of Maddox type QBs in their post Ben future.

j/c

I just watched the Texas film and came away really noticing how often his left foot gets wide left. I think young guys with strong arms just don't notice the mechanics as much.

That said, he still threw some nice balls with that foot out wide. I think it was Vers who made the point that he can STILL make good throws with that flaw, but just not consistently. That observation played out throughout that film.

I could use some help with the following:

When Hue asked him to get his feet closer together, was he talking left-to-right or front-to-back or both?

Thx that one worked.

I like that one. Replay over and over.

4) Dumb, Dumb and Dumber. Never throw across the field late. EVER. Throw it away. No biggie there.

6) Excellent pocket presence. Steps up. He's really good at that. Big plus. Either a bad read or he tried to force that one trusting his arm.

9&11) Love this kids pump fake. It'll work in the NFL.

13) Ahhh. There's that throwing to the left, hips wide open, right leg kick and BOOM. Nose dive into the ground.

Looking at more and more of his throws is telling me that the right leg kick is no big deal. He throws some great passes kicking that leg. Not an issue to me. Inconsistent accuracy is coming from something else.

And I believe it's ONE thing. Hue may have already figured it out. If he has, we gotta KEEPER.

I love watching this dude play QB. Love the presence to slide up in the pocket and that pretty pump fake. Great touch and great deep balls.

*L* ... ya ... yesterday I was at my 9 year old nephews soccer tourny ... would have broke it down then but i didn't have enough battery left so I could only post ...

Just got back from the park with my 12 year old nephew hitting him grounders, working on leading off and throwing from the stretch ... he LOVES the game and I can help with that one unlike the two that play soccer ... *L* ... although the 9 year old is switching to baseball next year .. hopefully he stays there ...

Going to the fireflies game in a little bit ... may get toit tonight but prolly not as I'm sure my nephews will have sumptin to do ... I'll get to the Texas game tonight or tommorow ... I watched it this morning about 6:00 AM just to cruise through ...

Its really nice to watch it with the info we've (that means all of us ... lots of GREAT CONTRIBUTORS in here) been talking about in here ... also the first time i watched him breaking it down as opposed to being a fan ...

The first three passes of that game are a summary of who he is .. good and bad ...

Throw 1 - pump fake to EQ then he lofts it maybe 20 - 25 yards downfield giving his taller reciever a chance to go get it ... safety had come over but it was a nice throw ...

- great pump fake ...
- accurate throw giving his tall reciever a chance ...

- safety came over ... leaving a space or someone open ... he never looks to see ... so he telegraphed his pass to the safety and when the safety bit he never even glanced ... its tough on that throw cause its a "timing" throw after the pump fake .. but he had to know he had some open space or a one on one somewhere else ...

Throw 2 - TD pass to EQ (hes the tall guy from here on out ... so when u see EQ .. know he's 6'5 and a match up nightmare ...

Perfect pass to the outside shoulder giving EQ plenty of room to get his feet down ... AWESOME ...

Throw 3 - short out out to hunter ... complete but he had to come back and dive for it ...

U could see his right(back) foot swing ... and the throw nosedived and my guess is the velocity wasn't there ...

On a side note .... watching the game as a fan on the throw to Hunter .. i thought .. OK .. he threw it where no one else could catch it ... i can live with that, actually thats a good thing when need be ... wondered why with all the room he had on that one ..

Because of everything I'VE LEARNED on this thread ... i now know it was bad mechanics and an innacurate throw ... *L* ....

Again .. thanks to everyone .. i come here to learn .. and there hasn't been a lot of learning for me ... this thread is AWESOME ... thanks to all ..

I'll be back tonight or tommorow to give my breakdown of Texas ...

Fellas, I didn't go to bed last night and suddenly wake up this morning as a QB guru. I did however, watch a couple of youtube videos that helped me understand some of the many nuances to throwing an accurate football.

Mechanics of Throwing This guy seems like a high school coach whose audience are younger players and their coaches. Also it's edited down from a longer video (he probably wants to sell) but what I got from it was an explanation about posture and where to hold the ball in preparation to throw. Equally interesting was a brief treatment about the opening of the hips and how to step into a throw when the receiver is crossing the QB's face either left to right or vice versa.

Then I noticed a video of Montana on the subject of throwing so of course I had to check that out. Montana My biggest take away here was wieght distribution when setting up to throw. Joe suggests about 70% of the QB's weight should be on the back foot, so that the QB can transfer that force thru the lead leg into the upper body as he's going thru his throwing motion. Joe also likes feet about shoulder width apart


Then I went and watched some game clips of Kizer. I wonder if DeShone would benefit from holding the ball higher a la Peyton Manning? It might speed up his delivery by a fraction of a second. I also ask myself if he might also improve his weight distribution so that when he sets up to throw he already has planted with his back leg bearing most of this weight and he doesn't have to shift his weight back and then come forward with his release? I think I'm seeing some of that from him. I know he's a tall guy but I think his base might also be too wide. Are these issues correctable at the NFL level?

Thoughts?

great Post vers.

To piggy back some, what you explain here if you use an analogy of a pitcher coiuld me a timing issue.

A pitcher velocity and to some extyent accuracy is a product of both movement toward the plate and and rotation of the core.

When his timing if off and his landing foot is too fast, then his hops will fly open, the tendency then is for that foot to land too far left, his body is behind the momentum of the core turn, which as you state throws his leading should down and his elbow is not only lower but also will push out, this will typically result in a pitch high and too the right as his follow through will make him fall off in tat direction.

Conversely the plant foot too late , with close the approach forward and push the body to the right , the compensation for that then is to whip he arm cross body and giving a low and out side spot.

Both will lead to velocity loss as well.

I realize the pitching motion if different form the passing motion, much like the difference between a throw from centerfield as opposed to a throw from shortstop, bu the general mechanics are the same the rotation and momentum toward the target must be in conjunction with one another.

JMHO

Sorry Diam, but I don't see ANY WAY that's going to happen!

You should have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!

Posture, body positioning and holding the ball high are all things I taught my pitchers when I coached baseball. Stand straight, good posture, holding the ball high will bring your feet together. Keeping good posture through your motion also limits over striding and keeps the ball from sailing. Over striding is what causes that back leg kick people are talking about. After that.. you start working on compact motion, release point and straight follow through...

U need to elaborate bro ... not sure what that means ... i know your shy and have trouble expressing yourself but please elaborate on this one .. ...

Seriously ... please elaborate ... curious as to what u mean by that ...

Diam, I think that the way your sentence reads makes it sound like Kizer will makes some throws that will make u (the reader) crave for me (DiamDawg). Pit is saying he doesn't see ANY WAY he's going to crave you.

I read Diam's post and thought he was being slightly sarcastic, and that he got pit's play on words.

I did too, until "seriously". That's where I must have gotten thrown off.

Lots of good stuff happening in this thread.

My original intent was to stick as close as possible to the OP/thread topic that Vers laid out because I know it drives me nuts when people don't...but people are coming from several different angles that are related even though not directly on thread topic...so my focus won't be just on accuracy....but...on that topic......

I am not sure I agree with the article/thought that blames Kizer's inaccuracy on his left leg coming off the ground and opening his hip early.

*shrugs* I think its just how he throws. Even on some of his best throws he's lifting that back leg off the ground.



And I know I've seen other QBs lift their back legs also.

It something i'll keep looking and maybe there is something to it that i'll see later on that I don't see now...but right now I can't say whether or not Kizer's back leg is an issue or not.

DeShone Kizer vs Texas

:13 Missed throw #1.
(lbl*) half field read. pump fake. comeback (r) sideline.

I'm not sure this throw is "inaccurate" because of aim but its an odd 'type' of throw to make. He lofts it high and throws it like a back shoulder fade. The pace of the throw, the height of the throw allow the safety to make a play. I think the back shoulder aspect of the throw is correct but I think this throw should be driven with velocity and more on a line towards the sideline.
*(lifts back leg)

:17 1-on-1 50/50 fade ball. lbl. half field. 1 receiver read. Good placement to the outside shoulder towards the sideline.


:44 Missed throw #2.
8 yard curl/stop route vs off coverage (Cover 3) (r) underthrown. lbl.


I don't like his drop back footwork on this throw.

There is no rhythm to this throw, it just seems out of sync. He catches the ball (with feet already offset right foot up) takes a half step with his left foot then a full step with his right then hops 2-3 times to wait for the curl route. I'm not sure what he's coached to do here but the footwork and timing appear off. OR it could be he's unsure of the receiver or the route or the concept. Ideally I would want to see much crisper footwork and a more decisive throw. If i'm watch this film with Kizer i'm asking hi....dude? what happened on this throw?

:55s Screen (r). Thrown off backfoot which caused pass to be too high. Ideally want to see him catch rock and throw immediately on target to Screen receiver. (could be nit picking here a bit)


:59s 3rd and 13. Sack.


Its 3rd and long so I understand that he's looking downfield. But...he has clear sight on an unblocked defender and has 2 options:

-avoid/escape left out of the pocket away from the unblocked man and extend the play to run or throw

-throw the drag route give the receiver a chance to make a play

Hey guard. That first video drove me crazy w/all the editing. Hard for me to follow. He had two good points in my mind. The one about the index finger and the one about the front foot. He may have had more, but I was getting irritated w/the editing.

The Montana video was better. I agree w/what he was saying. The weight distribution before and after. The load. The front elbow leading. The index finger. The front foot and chest towards the target [most important], the transfer of the weight, the follow through.

I don't know if Kizer needs to start w/the ball higher. I'll check it out on the next video I watch. I do think his base is a bit wider than normal. You mentioned Joe's base. LOL.........all people who have played competitive sports know what the "athletic stance" is. It works in almost every sport.

Thus far, I do think Kizer's mechanical issues are fixable. But, it's early in the process. I need to watch more. I'll probably move on because I really don't have the patience for waiting on this one game at a time thing. I'm curious and wanna watch more tape.

I am a little concerned about the mental aspect. Gonna keep a close eye on indicators.

Two good additions, ed. I really like the second one. I do want to address a couple of things you said in the first post, though.




It's his right leg that is coming off the ground, but that might have just been a typo. The hip thing is real. No one teaches a qb to step out to the left of the target which opens up the hip that much. No one who knows what he's doing, anyway. It's imperative that your front foot and chest point to your target.

Yes, he can make accurate throws by doing so because of arm talent. However, that mechanical flaw will lead to inconsistency and that is the issue w/Kizer.

Also, the back foot thing is dramatic. It is far different than the clip you provided. He kicks it out to the right and very high. There is absolutely no need to this and it sure as hell doesn't provide more power. Watch the Montana video and take a look at the weight transfer. That is how we teach it.

I really loved your second post. Great examples of what you are talking about. Wish I knew how to do that. It's so much more effective to have a visual of what you are trying to describe. I'm looking forward to your future takes on Kizer.

I think this is an interesting article on changing a QB's mechanics. I remember the Rodgers thing. He was taught in the classical, young qb way on where to hold the football. The thing I remember most about it, rather than just the deep throw, was how it made his drop slower, especially the 5 and 7-step drops. Anyway.........some good information for those who like to learn:

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/5/6/15554080/cleveland-browns-draft-pick-film-room-deshone-kizer

This is what it should look like...........and the music is cool. LOL

So..........say you are a fan of football, but never played quarterback or coached the game. Perhaps you never even played high school football. You might be wondering........"how could guys like Kizer get to such a high level w/out being coached to have proper mechanics?" You might even ask: "What about guys like Rivers, Hogan, Tebow, etc who were successful but had poor mechanics? Why didn't their coaches fix their issues?" You might be embarrassed to ask them, but.......

I think those are damn good questions and a logical mind would certainly think along those lines. I believe I have an answer.

There are many good high school and college coaches. In fact, it is my belief that there are better "teachers" of fundamentals at the lower levels than there are in the professional ranks.......in any of the 3 major sports.

However, say you have a guy like Kizer in high school. He's huge. He can throw the ball a country mile. Much farther and w/way more velocity than the older players you have coached to master perfect technique. What do you do? Change what is successful? You may try, but what if the kid is reluctant? Do you bench him? What happens then? I can tell you what will happen............you'll lose your damn job. Community pressure would push your sorry ass out the door. So, you live w/it and think what could be.......

Now, here we are. Kizer is going to the NFL. He has a very good teacher in Hue. He has physical talent. He has mechanical flaws. Will he listen? Will he work his butt off to fix those issues? We will have to wait and see.

The mental things? I don't know...........but, that's another story.

Has anyone heard/read about teams using virtual reality pre-draft to help evaluate players (specifically QBs)? It seems like that would be a great way to at least try and see how a QB works on the field.

That's a good read. QB Mechanics and Altering.

I don't want these guys trying to rebuild Kizer and potentially take away what's natural to him.

All I see necessary is a tweak or two.

I wanna know WTH Jackson and Lee told Kizer to do on that one visit that resulted in this better consistency and accuracy on the next visit. Hues words were to the like of "It's obvious he's been working on it"

We should see some videos coming out from Rookie Camp soon.

Good thread going in here.
A bit like old times. Kudos.

Would have thought on opening it might go in a different direction given the thread title.

Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer.

Is he the guy to iron out flaws, footwork, decision making, throw mechanics that are being broken down for real? There has been conjecture on this statement before now on his development of QBs - like its an urban myth or something. Would like to see that angle explored once the extent of Kizers ability has been ascertained (just a request of those who know better than me!)

Carry on.

i have a question.

do you have to fix ALL of a QB's mechanical issues, or just as much as possible?

cause Phillip rivers has a funky throwing motion, but he's an elite QB.

And we have the next Ben... That would be ideal..

You shouldn't try to fix anything if the end results are positive.

I don't think there is one perfect way to throw a football that will work for everyone. People have different body types (muscle pliability, flexibility, range of motion, "lever" length, hand size) so what works best for one, might not for another. I think a big key is consistency in the mechanics. If you are consistent in your delivery, the end result/accuracy should also be more consistent.

It appears that Kizer's hip opening and leg kick put him off balance-sometimes more than others. Being "wobbly"/off balance makes it hard to be consistent.

I love this thread. Thanks to all for your evaluations. It sounds like footwork and lower body synergy is the biggest physical drawback right now for Kizer.

Next week we should see some videos from Rookie Camp. Looking forward to it.

We'll see how he's throwing as far as foot spread, open hips and that leg kick goes. We'll be able to see it and compare to what we have been looking at.

Color me curious. If anything changes, it's a good bet that it was what Jackson told him to work on previously.

That article Vers put up indicated a change in what string of the ball you set up with can change things. I'm going to try that today. Moving forward and backward on the strings.

j/c...wish I had more time...Good thread guys!

Good question. Not sure if this is a good answer or not, but let me start w/an example.

Aaron Rodgers was mentioned in one of the articles and how they worked w/his mechanics. However, while he has very good mechanics most of the time, we have seen him make crazy throws. LOL....like rolling to his left, lead foot pointed out of bounds, right leg farther up the field, an arm delivery that is between side-arm and 3/4s motion, and throw a freaking dart right on the money 35 yards down the field. It's freaking insane.

I think you try and "fix" things when you see a guy has an issue. For instance, it's been reported that Kizer has inconsistent accuracy. He makes perfect throws at times, and at other times the ball nosedives into the ground or sails high and wide. Your natural reaction is to figure out why.

Thus, you start w/looking at his tape and try to find issues w/his mechanics, which is sort of what we are doing here. You show him the results of film study, make suggestions, work w/him individually to correct the problem, create drills to help build muscle memory, and then try and simulate game-like situations.

I'm not positive, but from what I've seen w/Kizer.......the first thing I would try to work on [actually it's two things, but they are related] is to narrow his stance a bit. Get him in that athletic stance that Montana mentioned earlier. In case you didn't read it, feet about shoulder width apart, knees slightly bent, but not too far, and a little bit of a forward bend at the hips. You know, the classic athletic stance that we use in so many sports. You keep in that position w/the ball in the throwing motion and have to do cone-drills while his eyes are up.

The second part is the step w/his front leg. You wanna get it where it's just slightly left of the target. Just enough so that his hips open and his chest is facing the target on the turn/follow-through.

That's where I'd start and see what happens. That might even be enough to take care of the back leg kicking out so high and far out to the right. If not, we don't need to eliminate it, but let's ensure that it isn't so dramatic.

So, in summary.........I would say that you try and tweak his issues rather than rebuild the entire motion. Does that make sense?

Most of you know Mark Herman. He was the OC at Ohio State when we won the National Championship a few years ago. He went on to Houston and did well there. He just got the Texas HC job.

I mention him because he has some good drills. I'll show this one because it addresses the footwork drills in the post I made to Swish. I think it's pretty cool:

It is kinda like old times when there was more football talk on the board then all the personality contests that prevail now.

I think the thread evolved into this because the original article talked about Hue fixing Kizer's mechanics.

I also think that most people agree that Hue is highly regarded as a teacher and is good w/qbs. For instance, I question his ability to evaluate qbs, but I believe that he is a great teacher and developer of qbs.

I hope the thread doesn't turn into whether or not Hue is a good coach or not, because that will just lead to the usual bickering.

Ok cool.
So if you was the coach, you would work on his stance and footwork first, cause that's mandatory, and if that's corrected, you would only work on his throwing motion if it was still hindering his development? But on game day if his throwing motion was getting it done then just roll with it?

Cause that would make sense. If you remember in 2014, Hoyer started looking like trash because his footwork just went AWOL out of nowhere.

Pretty much. I don't think you do a total rebuild and Kizer does a lot of good things w/his mechanics.

You mentioned Rivers earlier and I was thinking about him after I responded to you. Like you said, his mechanics are a mess, but he still gets the job done. The crazy thing is that when he was in college, his mechanics were even worse. They/he have tweaked some things so that they are not as bad as they were.....but, they didn't totally rebuild them.

Hue Jackson says Browns can lean on his expertise in QB search

“So I came here to coach that position and get it better, and I plan on doing that. So that has nothing to do with it. I’m going to take my expertise — I’ve been doing this for a long time — and put a quarterback on this football team that can win. That’s my job. We’re going to do it collectively as a group. But hopefully we’re going to lean on my expertise and what I need at that position to win.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...e-in-qb-search/

Question: My guess is, if you try to correct everything you could possibly end up having a qb that's doing to much thinking about mechanics. Is that possible?

If so, you work on 1 or 2 things first, right? How long could/would it take to correct something to the point of the qb, kizer, not having to think about it, and then being able to move on to something else?

Yeah, no doubt. It's kinda like the old paralysis by analysis saying.

And I don't think Kizer's mechanics are that bad. He does a lot of good things. I also think that his issues are fixable provided he is a willing learner.

I don't know about his mental make-up and if there are issues, but I think Hue will fix his physical mechanics.

Success breeds confidence.

When things go bad is when you see guys going back to "what they know" because "what you said" isn't working...

And then everything falls apart.

Yeah......all of us weekend golfers know that to be true. LOL

I've said it a few different places, but a QB's motion, release, footwork, etc remind me a lot of a basketball shot (which I know more about).

Footwork must be sound, follow through must be good, motion must be concise, and consistency trumps all.

Hmmmmm..........I think the mechanics of throwing a football are more similar than those used in hitting a baseball than in throwing a baseball.

Edit:

LOL.......y'all probably think I lost my mind. I better explain what I meant.

I was simply referring to the stride, the weight distribution, the opening of the hips, the finished position of the chest, and the transfer of how the power is generated.

as with anything of this nature, you have to practice the good habits and you have to practice them until muscle memory takes root and it becomes your new default where you don't have to think about how you're doing it -- you just do it that way.

With a lot of things in the body, a person ends up doing things a certain way due to a limitation somewhere. It could be a lack of flexibility/mobility in a joint or whatever, but it sets up a chain of compensations that affects everything else.

Example: A tight hip flexor causes the hips to roll which induces a little lower back pain which causes the upper torso to lean forward, which prevents the passer from opening their shoulders and fully rotating when beginning their throw, which reduces the range available to them for their follow through and thus causes a "weak arm".... and this is how the person has always been, so it is perceived as who they are.

If you remove the limiters and then ingrain a new way of moving, however, then you remove the tendency to fallback to old patterns simply by way of giving the body an improved way of getting where you want it to go.

I am certainly no guru on this subject, but what you said there makes sense to me and is likely why guys like Rivers, Kosar, and others never really messed with their throwing motion.

I suppose if a guy gets his footwork down and he is still a mess, then you go on to the throwing motion.

I've enjoyed reading the various explanations as to how guys get to this point yet still have bad footwork. It's mind-boggling to me. I was a decent amateur athlete - nothing more - and I paid attention to my footwork. I taught my son to work on his footwork. It takes work, but it's not that hard. But the explanations I'm reading make sense.

This article makes me want to send Kizer to McCarthy's QB school. Immediately.

Real quick. I agree there are several ways to throw a football. And like Vers said it doesn't have to be a wholesale change of his mechanics. He doesn't have to have his back leg glued into the ground every throw.

He could stand to tighten up his throwing mechanics as a whole. More compact, less 'sloppy' and more consistent and repeatable. But in and of itself I don't see his back foot coming off of the ground a flaring out needs to be completely overhauled. Perhaps reigned in a bit....

Take a look at the guy below and how often he lifts his back leg off the ground.

I think that Kizer needs to understand and trust what he sees.

I think that it is, in many ways, that simple.

Watching the bad clips, it sees like he loses the plot on some plays.

I don't know if it was him being uncomfortable with the plays, or the players .....or maybe being berated by the coach ..... who knows. However, I think that it's something inside his head as much as anything physical.

I a reminded of that VR tool that some schools are using. Man, I think that this kind of thing would definitely benefit Kizer. Let him see defenses over and over again, all different alignments, different schemes, and learn how to handle those. It might get him more comfortable, so that his brain doesn't overrule his talent.

I think that his brain fights his body all too often, and he'll never win doing that.

My main concern with him is how he "sees" the field. Some of his INTs are real head scratchers. I don't know if it's a healthy trust in his ability to fit into tight windows, or if the problem lies with him just not seeing the defender near his receiver. I obviously would prefer the former over the latter.

When looking the part just isn't enough.

I was ready to bet darn near anything that Quinn was going to be our savior. Don't think he got a fair deal, but that happens when coaches get fired every other year.

I was just making a point. That while yeah. Quinn was always "in shape" I kind of felt his mass hurt him as a QB. Flexibility and rotation wise.

"Now I'm done"

I may be wrong, as I'm the furthest thing from a QB guru...

But I think, in Kizer's case, it'll be less of a "tear it all down and build it up again" thing, and more of a spot fix. The story on Kizer is that he's really inconsistent. He'll be great right up until he throws an awful pass, makes a terrible decision, etc. To me, the solution to something like that is a hard look into what he's doing, and the result of that, and identifying which thing(s) causes those 'wtf' moments, and addressing those.

I've read the almost annual articles about Tom Brady working on his throwing mechanics, working on this, working on that. A QB's throwing is never 'done'. He's always working on stuff and improving stuff. In Kizer's case, the trick will be identifying what habits he has that cause those 'Bad Kizer' moments, and eliminating those to get him to a level where he can step out onto an NFL field on Sunday.

Exactly.
He had upper body physique and looked the part, but that's about it because he had other limiters.

From what I remember, he got here, and he was inaccurate.

I was surprised when I saw it, but Quinn didn't have a very good arm.

Here is a pre camp workout throw for Kizer. Looks like his base is signficantly smaller.

https://twitter.com/clevezirm/status/861658292816424960

Football always start with the feet!

Interesting. Zero right leg kick.

All sports start with the feet, except maybe golf. That starts with the hands and grip.

I don't think you're going to find any QB that lifts there back leg during practice or non-game throwing sessions. But you will see a lot of QBs do it during game situations.

I think the 'leg kick' happens in instances where the QB needs to generate velocity without being in proper throwing rhythm. Its almost like they're generating velocity from a standstill and the torque they generate pulls the back leg off the ground. As opposed to being in rhythm via 3-5-7 step drop and transferring the weight to the front leg via the timing of the throw.

Kizer doesn't need a QB coach, he needs to take latin dance class learn to move his feet and hips.

j/c:

This has been an awesome thread and so many people have made great points. Thanks guys!!!!

I love how so many have asked questions. Shows they are truly interested in learning.

I like how others have brought their own expertise to the table, like Purp did about what different body parts are responsible for, tab talking about how it starts w/the feet, KWhip w/the earlier analysis about throwing the ball and golf comparison, ed w/his visual evidence of certain plays along w/an explanation, and how others have made comparisons to other sports. It's freaking educational and a lot of what I read from you guys makes me think of new things to add or to research.

A few guys like guarddawg and ober have said they aren't experts, but have made great points. I don't think anyone is an expert. We're just guys talking football. In fact, I think both of those guys have a very good base knowledge of the game. Speak up and don't be shy.

I gotta share something w/you guys. I was going to leave the board. I checked out some other boards, but man, the posters were so damn ignorant! Intolerable. We have a lot of intelligent posters on this board. It's by far the best Brown's board out there. I hope to see more threads like this.

I've enjoyed reading all the comments. I've looked at some of game tape but like others I have no experience breaking down a QB's throwing mechanics.

Question - it seems like the "talent" is there, and that the break down in mechanics leads to inconsistent accuracy. Is it repetition and muscle memory? Or is it mental. Or both.

How much change is needed to create enough accuracy to be a solid NFL QB ? 10% 50% ? 80% ?

I will be honest. I have a lot of doubts as to his ability to ever become consistent in his lower body mechanics. I wouldn't have taken him at 52 because of that opinion. Potential is there for greatness but there is no rhyme nor reason why he does the things with his body that he is doing when he throws the football.

Good questions. One thing before I start to try and answer.......it's obvious you are very intelligent. Watch the videos and read the articles. You'll pick it up real quick. Guaranteed.

Now, to your questions:



I think it is because he has so much natural talent that he was permitted to get away w/a couple of bad mechanical habits. And again, he does a lot of really good things mechanically. I have to watch more, but I really think his wide base [a small issue], his left foot stepping way too far out to the left on throws to the left [huge issue] and the dramatic right leg kick [that KWhip says has already looks to be fixed] are his issues. None of them are huge deals. They can be fixed if he is a willing learner. And we have a great teacher in Hue.



I do not know the answer to this question. I need to reread Diam's post about his mental stuff and do some more research, but I think it's going to be a wait and see. I hate not being conclusive, but I don't wanna make crap up. We are just going to have to see how he develops. Sorry.



I can't put a percentage on it, but physically speaking........I do not see his issues as significant and I think they can be fixed. Again.....if he is a willing learner.

I wish I could give more definitive answers, but I really just don't know the answers to those very good questions.

Mourg.............I used to work w/qbs. I think his mechanical issues are fixable. Hell, I think I could fix them and Hue is way smarter than I am.

Now, if it is a mental thing..........that's another story. We just don't know the answer to that one yet.

It seems like he will sometimes get pressured, and move effectively to avoid the pressure ..... but then lose where he is as far as his reads on the field. He panics, "just getting rid of the ball", even when it's nor necessary, and sometimes into about the worst spot.

He really needs to study and learn the offense, so he knows where to go with the ball in every circumstance. Then, when he is under pressure, whether real or perceived, he can understand what to do, and what not to do, with the ball.

For me I haven't done enough film study to pinpoint mechanics as 'thee' reason for his inconsistent accuracy. I mean of course in a sense mechanics always play a role in accuracy. For me the bigger question is what was the cause of the mechanical breakdown? Why isn't he more consistent mechanically?

Repetition builds that muscle memory but there is also a situational experience factor that also plays a role in building the muscle memory. Its not enough to do it in practice alone you still need game reps. And this is where the school of thought that say 'let the young QBs play, learn and grow' comes from.

And there is certainly a mental aspect and imho even important coaching aspects that have huge impacts on QB improvement.

This is a tough question to answer because depending on system and talent alone the exact same QB without any changes to their game can have a jump in completion % and a corresponding jump/decline in the perception of the their accuracy.

1:24s

Play action. Skinny Post from (r) slot.

This is an example of good DeShone. Hits the receiver in stride with velocity and placement to beat the dropping LB and keep the receiver from being blown up.

Awesome! Nice play action, stands tall in the pocket, good balance, nice step w/the front foot, excellent follow through while making the read quick.

Hey ed..........I know it's early..........but, have you noticed that Kizer's mechanics are much better when he is throwing to the right or to receivers who are running from the right side and how his mechanics suffer when both are from the left?

It's pretty amazing!!!!

I haven't noticed that...yet. I've posted up to the 1:26 mark (I've charted most of the game). But of the posted throws he's missed 2 (13s, 44s) to the right and hit 1 to the left (TD 17s) and hit this current pass middle of field coming from the right.

Okay..........keep it in the back of your mind and let me know what you see.

Btw---------I've watched several tapes of games, including the USC game. Watch for it............and it's one of the main reasons why I think Hue can fix this problem........and again, if Kizer is a willing learner.

Without question this has been the best thread I've participated in on this board in a very long time. There's been differences of opinion without defensiveness. We should try to keep this vibe going as much as possible.

About the INTs, nobody likes them but I don't think his problem has been as severe as Watson's. Kiszer was 26 to 9, TD to INT ratio in '16. He was 21-10 in '15. Watson threw 17 INTs this past season alone. With that said they are a concern. My opinion is they are more a combination of improper progression and field vision than just mental lapses. Film study and working closely with the QB coach on his post-snap reads should affect this for the good. Supposedly there is some sort of virtual OB app that might help him see more the the field at once. He'll have to put in the work tho.

I don't believe the INTs are the main concern, (at least for me) it's more about the inconsistency (sailing balls and balls thrown into the dirt) to wide open receivers. The INTs (some of them anyway) are often confusing because they seem to be obvious "no throws". Hopefully coaching and work on his mechanics can help improve both issues.

Yeah, good point.

A lot has been said about Kizer's mechanics.

What about his ability to read the field? Pre and post snap?

We can fix his hips and keep his leg down all day, but if he can't read a defense it doesn't matter...

Edit: I'm actually asking for opinions of Kizers ability to do this, not trying to say he can't. I just reread my post...

Good questions.

I have been evaluating his entire game as I looked at the vids.

It's too early for me to say for sure, but here are my early impressions regarding your questions:

Presnap reads: Pretty good. Even reading the articles, you see where a couple of the authors talk about him making the right pre-snap read.

Post-snap read: This appears to be an issue. That throw against USC that was a pick 6 blows my mind. Again, too early to say for sure. I gotta watch more.

Hey fellas, I only went back through page 5. haven't read page 4 yet.

question. Are we talking about fixing Kizers mechanics and post snap reads in this off season so he starts game one? or just the things he needs to work on to be a better QB and start some time down the road?

just curious

You're reading the thread from last post back to first post? LOL...that's different.

I don't think anyone who is evaluating his mechanical and or reads is really saying when he should start. I think we are just evaluating him as a qb.........and that might help give us an idea of when/if he is a viable starting qb.

lol yea I know. it's called lazy reading lol

but yea ok...just wasn't sure...I'm on the let Kizer sit this year and let us see if Cody can get er done this year...if not next years QB class looks better than this years.

we can grab our QB next year if need be, p.us a couple of other WR's while we are at it...

j/c...thought this was very interesting. If you have the time take a look.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/5/6/15554080/cleveland-browns-draft-pick-film-room-deshone-kizer

Really good stuff there. I would add that Kizer is only 21. He has a good chance of further developing mentally. He's already there physically and the mechanics aren't as ingrained as they might be for an older rookie.

I think we all know that it's easier to change your ways when you are younger.

I agree about his base being smaller. I've only watched the Texas game clips so far but his stride/over-stride is noticeable in that game.

I know it's just one throw...but he looked a little "mechanical" to me. Also - and maybe I'm pre-disposed to looking for this after reading this thread - he looked like he's fighting to keep his left foot from flaring out to the left. It looks like his toe is pointed straight but his heel (leg follow through) wanted to flare out.

Interesting to watch that video after reading the comments in this thread.

I'm with edromeo that the right leg-kick doesn't seem to be as much an issue...but that left leg flare-out has to be fixed. I'm going to watch the game clips and try to pay attention to throws left versus throws right...I think Vers is on to something there.

This has been the best thread I've seen on here for a long, long time. I've read every word and every link provided from the beginning. You've brought a lot to the table as has many others. I can't remember a thread that talked so much football without the arguing and personal attacks.

Someone said, maybe you, this is like the old board used to be, lots of football talk.

jc

Ran into a guy on Saturday after voting and he noticed my Browns hat and told me he knew Cody Kessler, CK played against his son's team in high school. He told me that he was the most athletic player he had ever seen. This guy told me that Cody was a point guard in High School and scored 50 points in one game. I'm not sure if he has all the tools to be a good QB or not. I don't think a rookie season tells it all. I'm a glass half full person, as long as it bourbon. Hue liked him for some reason, maybe he can whisper this kid too.

Basket Ball

More BB

I think Cody Kessler has much more upside than most give him credit for too. I have no issue starting him this year to see.

I don't want to side track this thread - but I am in this camp too.

Thanks - I can see the tendencies that are being discussed, I can see why these would impact consistency. . . . but that's a long way from being able to identify a tendency or flaw that hasn't already been brought up!! That's something I think has been so good and enjoyable in this thread - a lot of very good input from many with good insight into coaching.

Again, a baseball background here, but if you have a picther that can paint the corner at 98 mph 3 out of 10 pitches, you can teach him to do that 5-6 out of 10 pitches. At least you think you can if you are a good coach. (It doesn't always work out that way.)


The point is Kiser can make good throws. He has it in him. He has shown it, so the ability is there. If the ability is there, it's there. He has the ability. Natural arm strength is there. You can't teach that. You can't turn a pitcher who throws 88 and make him a guy who throws 98. It's not going to happen. At some point he has had to hit 98 MPH to know he can do it.

The point is if the kid has the abillity, then why not coach him to do it more often?


Again....sometimes it just never happens. Not a failure by anybody. It just wasn't meant to be.

Thanks ddub.

Riddler was the guy who brought up the part about this thread being like the old board. I only supported his claim. Speaking of Riddler.........I always thought he was a good poster.


Oh, and thanks for the kind words. You wanna know something? You are the one who inspired me to post like this. I wrote to you and some other guys about possibly leaving the board. In your response, you mentioned how the board has went downhill and how so many other good posters no longer post here. That made me kinda sad. I've never been a quitter and I started to consider........how about we take the board back? Start talking real football again. Hell, many of us used to argue a lot, but we didn't take it so personal. I remember guys like Diam, Pit, and DnD telling me how ignorant I was and I would laugh because I knew there was no malice behind the comment. It's just guys arguing strong.

So bro.........if you and others wanna help me restore the board to it's pinnacle, I would be most appreciative.

Back to the topic...........which should be about Kizer and not Kessler. I think the title is misleading. The original article was about Kizer's issues and whether Hue can fix them.

I think the game breakdown stuff is going a bit too slow to keep people's interest. I seriously doubt if we get through all the games. I think the the Stanford and Michigan State games might be good games to look at. I would like to hear more about the USC game. I thought it was very interesting and very revealing.

Come on, y'all..........pitch in. Don't be shy. It's a freaking football message board. Who cares about how skilled a poster is at evaluating things. The key is to have good discussion. Watch a play and point something out. Ask a question. Speaking of questions...........I love questions. ddbub and Diam used to ask me questions all the time. They really made me think. Hell, it helped me learn. We have guys on this thread like guard, Swish, 888, KWhip, ober, etc who have asked great questions. Even if we don't know the answers, we are learning because we are delving deeper into the subject matter. That is a learning process in itself. Here is an example:

Anyone remember Bloom's Taxonomy? Think about it:

https://goo.gl/images/WCr98q

That is what we can do here.

Here is a video of the Michigan St game in 2016. Interesting as hell. So much to see. Great throws. Dumb throws. Crazy athleticism. Pocket presence. Inaccurate throws. Great runs. A lot going on.

I'll post my thoughts later.............curious as to what you guys see:

Wow at 4:35'ish, he bombs that. He didn't even really plant before launching that missile. I know it wasn't a completion, but that arm strength.

Good video, thanks for posting. Array of strengths, weaknesses and talent on display.

I think that he was in a bad situation last year. He had injuries on the OL, and issues at WR. He appeared to be slow on his reads, and that is probably to be expected out of a rookie, but I am sure that youth at WR did not help either.

I am not ready to anoint him, but I am really interested to see how he does this year.

j/c

I have to give credit to my fellow Browns fan for this comment about Hue making suggestions to Kizer regarding his footwork/mechanics at the combine...did any other coach make any suggestions at the combine? He's saying that surely Hue wasn't the only one...right?

Hue and he QB Coach gave him some adjustments during his visit in Berea, not the combine. At least that's how I read it.

Man this kid throws some great passes. Great deep and middle seam. Calling Coleman and Njoku.

He's got excellent touch and extremely good pocket presence. Slides around, steps up and hangs in there under pressure and doesn't take off too early.

We get a damn running​ game going and a defense to keep games close, this dude will thrive on Play-Action.

I keep going back to that 77% Completions on Play-Action.

I found myself watching this thinking to myself, Dame must be crushing State. Then I look at the score.

Diam. Did ND defense really suck wind that bad?

We know he was given the reigns to change Coverage at the LOS. Little sign of intelligence.

So he's reading something Pre-Snap. Hard to tell what.

Post-Snap is really difficult to determine. You just can't tell what he's seeing or thinking. He does look off the Safety nicely on several throws.

It's obvious he really trusts his arm. He throws some darts splitting defenders.

Kizer is REALLY growing on me.

Without question he's got the most potential of ANY QB on this roster.

They had a bunch of suspensions and injuries on defense and they fired their DC during the season. I'd say they left a lot to be desired on that side of the ball. The secondary especially was a mess.

I think it's fairly safe to say they did need to outscore people. I also wonder how switching QBs during the season/having Zaire breathing down his neck might have fed into him trying to do too much at times.

I have 3 plays from the first quarter that I want to highlight. I'm waiting to hear from some others and will add more later.

About 55 seconds into the vid: Zone read, Kizer pulls the ball out and rolls left, buys some time, and lofts a short pass w/tremendous touch to an open receiver. Very impressive.

About 1:30 into the vid: Kizer's feet get too active on drop. He is overlapping them, and if you watched the Herman video I showed earlier, you will remember that this is not a good thing because his base is off. The right leg kick is fairly extreme and the ball sails way high of the intended target. Mechanics.

About 2:00 min into the vid: Kizer runs to the left an shows his speed and running ability on a TD. Faster than I thought based on his 40 time.

Ya .. it was that bad to begin with then as Grimm mentioned we had suspenions/injuries ... not sure how much the injuries hurt as we stunk before them ... the one suspension definetly hurt ... the other one just because of the sheer #'s more than likely hurt ...

our best CB Cole Luke had 3 great seasons and then regressed last year .. he got beat 3 or 4 times a game it seemed and he was still our best secondary player ...

The suspensions on D happend late August ... and the D never improved one little bit .. we were doomed before the season and then we suffered a few injuries that quite frankly you didn't even notice they were so bad before that .. *L* ..

Losing Redfield really hurt ... well possibly .. one hell of an athelete and smart dude ... he graduated in 3 years with his language being Chineese ... one hell of an athelete but the kid couldn't keep his starting job ... he'd lose it every year .... very FRUSTRATING dude ... he was a safety ...

The other suspension on D only hurt cause he was a CB ... Butler was a senior but he pretty much did nothing his first three years .. would say it didn't hurt at all but the corners across from Luke all struggled also ... he couldn't have hurt just not sure how much he would have helped ...

Front 7 was the problem ... line STUNK and the LBer's weren't much better ...

And that 77% completion rate on play action is decieving .. he had all day and guys running wide open ... any qb would have thrived ... plus there's the downside to that ... how did that affect his overall completion % .. u know when he had a rush and not having guys wide open ...

Any nfl qb can thrive with time ... thats not an issue ...

Hey Diam.........since you probably don't have time to watch the game tapes, can you give us more insight into what you think of the guy mentally and character wise?

It doesn't have to be long. Just touch on a few things like:

--is he humble enough to accept criticism and coaching?

--did he improve his weaknesses while at ND?

--his pre-snap reads look pretty good, but what about going through his progressions?

--You touched on this already, but I wanna hear more about him as a teammate and leader?

--Some of his comments are pretty strong. Is he just confident or is he arrogant?

--How does he do in pressure situations?

You don't have to answer all of them, but I'm curious about these things.

(You weren't asking me but..)

I assume he's very confident if he's going to "compare" himself to some sort of Tom Brady/Cam Newton hybrid..

And I sorta hope he has an ego too.

Because I believe he's a smart kid. Because I assume you have to be at least somewhat smart to be able to attend ND.

So throwing that statement out there like he did, he now has to back it up.

I don't really "care" if he's humble. He's 21. I can assume he's not... But as long as he's willing to put in the work, mentally, to get to the level he's already claimed, the physical side is clearly there..

I say all of this, as a guy who didn't really want him. But he's here now.

And guys I've wanted on the team in the past ended up being crap. So what do I know?

Thanks for posting the vid of the kids reps v Michigan St

I watched that game and thought he struggled but in this format and with the goal of looking at him as a prospect - I liked a lot of what I saw

Vers' two positive plays stand out

Separate from any mechanics - my one criticism is the quality of the outs he throws that are to the left seems like something is wrong because he has the arm strength

Yeah.......I don't know how much of the thread you've read, but I have noticed in my limited viewing is that he struggles w/quite a few throws to the left and also WRs running slants or crossing routes from the left side.

I think the hip thing is huge and he gets off balance. But, I am not positive.

Btw----------good eyes.

I hear you. I am just trying to become more educated. Diam gets some inside info.

I like Kizer more than I did before I started watching his tape, but it seems like there is something missing there. Not sure what. That's why I was asking...

Based on your suggestion I am scanning the previous pages

Nothing in those three clips scare me (I am not qualified to comment on mechanics) ------ so I didn't read the article or have the volume on (just watched these three clips silent)

Looked like he was lazy on three throws
I call it lollipop - when some one tries to throw a little too cute

But I see Big Ben try to flick his wrist and end up missing just like that


I still haven't seen kizer really stroke a throw to the left intermediate

Thanks for contributing. I love hearing all the different takes.

ND at MSU 2016:

6:30 Good touch and timing

7:00 Play action, good mobility in the pocket (steps-up) throws from left has to inside the 1 yd line at right boundary, placement is exceptional pass-incomplete.

7:30 Pass to corner of end zone, accurate throw but maybe a little late. WR had to show Kizer his number an go up to catch a contested pass by DB - TD

8:00 Pressure in his face, stands in and takes a big hit but delivers a accurate ball for a 30 yd gain.

10:35 Hits a crossing route, slides to his left and waits for the WR to uncover. Patient and comfortable in the pocket, converts a 1st. down.

Two concerns that came to mind on this tape. He did lock on to some targets and didn't appear to go thru his progressions.

A recurring theme on most of these Kizer videos. ND did not score many passing TD in the red zone. They become one dimensional with a lot of QB runs in the zone.

guard................breaking it down!!!!

Cheers for the props Vers,

General comment - Don't see any reason why the good work in this thread can't be replicated on any subjects.

You blokes are a lot more likeable when you play nice and don't start with agendas and measuring e peens lol

Looking forward to the training camp briefs and the pre season breakdowns. In the meantime, once this thread has run its course would like to see a similar breakdown on Peppers and our 2 DTs.

I know I know, I'm not asking for much but you guys clearly have more time (and mad knowledge skills) on your hands than me!

Time is incredibly tight ... ma decided he wanted to move down yesterday ... my head is exploding over all the opportunity down here ... this place is BLOWING UP ... I did the Texas game Monday ... will get that up after this post ... then I'm going to do the unlv game .. i want to do them on order to see if there's a point it appears Kelly short circuited him .. *L* ... I'm just going to be slow as hell doing it .. *L* ..

--is he humble enough to accept criticism and coaching?

Humble had no place in his make up at ND ... zero ... he was coachable at ND until he turned Kelly off .. they had a toxic relationship at the end .. it was not good ..

Kelly screwed the QB spot up bigtime ... the entire thing .. there should have never been a QB comp .. HORRIBLE!!!!! This entire thing started as a snowball in the spring and turned into an avalanche by the 1/2 point of the season ...

I said from 1/2 way through the season on .. if Zaire could have hit the broad side of a barn or Wimbush wasn't red shirted ... Kizer would not have made it through the season as the starter ...

He's very smart .. so he does accept it from that standpoint alone ...

He can't accept berating ... *L* ... not sure on the accepting criticism part ..

He does want to improve ... thats always important ...



He regressed this year ... went backwords .... he played very good in the first two or three games .. so its hard to tell if he improved and then melted like a snowflake under Kelly or he just didn't improve ...



So hard to tell in college ... some plays he locks on ... I'll look for it when i go through the unlv game ... other plays he goes through "reads" ... its so hard to tell in college cause the "reads" are different ... not sure how to explain it .. things are a lot simplier in college and in Kelly's O the reads are "dumbed down" ...

Someone said earlier that Kizer was allowed to audible ... not really .. Kelly had a run and a pass play called in the huddle ... with one as the primary ... Kizer could switch from run to pass or vice versa based on what he saw ... all qb's under kelly have that option ...



Wasn't a leader at all ... not sure what else to say .... teammates didn't dislike him ... but they didn't gravitate to him either ... he spent a lot of time in the qb room .. *L* ...

He's 21 ... hoefully he's just shy ..



Very very arrogant at ND ... like Razor has said ... there's been many arrogant QB's at ND ... Kizer fit right in with them ...

I am hoping last year knocked him down a few pegs ... based off the Brady/Newton comment .. it appears he may have rationalized last year away ... *L* ..



Last year with a GREAT O ... he led us down the field many times starting in the 4th and a few on the last drive ... this year ... u saw the Texas game .. he led us back, got us the lead in the 4th .. missed a few opps to put us up by more than a FG and then we lost in OT ...

He handled late game pressure AWESOME til the 2nd half of this year ... how much of that was him, how much was kelly, how much was the fact the O was slightly above average last year when compared to last years great O ...

Hope that helps ...

To me .. its the mental part that will dictate his career ... and that u can't really judge in college, especially with a kid coming from a situation like Kizer's ...

Awesome stuff. Thanks for the knowledge.

Hmmmm. Sounds like Kizer was almost TRYING to get Kelly FIRED!!!! Just sayin'.

I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I think ND's receivers are overrated. They are definitely athletic, but they aren't great at creating separation. They can find holes in zone coverage, but the holes are much smaller in the red zone. In man, they can run away from people, but they aren't very good in and out of their breaks. There's not room to run away in the red zone. ND's tight ends weren't really that impressive either. I don't think Smythe was all the way back from his 2015 knee injury (a few passes seemed just out of his reach), and they didn't really seem to have a jump ball guy.

I had Kizer's games on on the tv in the background just cycling through on Youtube while I was doing something else on the laptop. A few things kind of got my attention.

An example of his receivers' questionable route running (to me) is his first pick in the Stanford game (2016). Around the 5:47 mark his receiver had an inside release, but instead of making a sharp break on an in breaking route, he rounds it and drifts away from Kizer allowing the DB to undercut him. Kizer and the receiver not being on the same page probably played in. I think Kizer did a sight adjustment based on the deep safety, and the receiver adjusted to the LB underneath. So, maybe not the greatest example of route running. I do think the receivers leave a lot to be desired as far as coming back to the ball on comebacks and not rounding in/out-breaking routes.

I think Kizer does struggle some with post snap reads, but I think most QBs do. Even Peyton Manning gets tricked at times. I think Kizer will really benefit from a strong running game, where teams can't get into complicated 7/8 man coverages. Kind of like Trubisky, Robber/Buzz zones caught him at times. Having teams worry about the run will open up the deep shots he seems to excel at. The 2015 game against Ohio State shows some of both. Tyvis Powell picks him off twice from disguised coverages. However, he hits Fuller in stride for long TDs a couple times as well. (Side note: that OSU D was loaded)

Watching his connection with Fuller made me decide to go back and try to take a look at Corey Coleman. His highlights look great, but when I looked at the actual games I was somewhat underwhelmed. He's so raw. He basically ran three routes (4 if you count "stand there" screens) slants, go's, and hitches. His athleticism is undeniable though, and he can high point the ball extremely well for his size. I do think he can play that Fuller role for Kizer, when he is ready to step in at QB. Even with his limited route tree, he could separate from DBs. His speed seemed to terrify DBs at times- overplay the fade and he'd burn them on the slant or vice versa. If Saunders can catch up his technique, watch out. We'll hopefully have some big bodied athletes for Kizer or whoever is QB as well in Britt, DeValve, and Njoku which should help in the red zone.

*L* ... not even close ...

Kelly is not the reason for al of Kizer's problems last year ...

I'm looking forward to watching for certain things in the rest of the games ..

Once again the day got away from me ... life is annoying sometimes .. *L* ...

If i don't get my texts thoughts up tonight (prolly gonna be too tired before i get any free time to do it .. ) I'll do them first thing tommorow before reading anything else so i can just focus on it ..

Sad part .. its going to be very short and sweet ...

I think this is an interesting article w/actual game pics. I have to post the link because I don't think the pics will show up if I copy and paste it.

Check it out:

https://www.18stripes.com/film-room-iso-cam-kizer-throwing-motion/

I was very interested in his feet and especially his back foot ... when it "circled" it seemed to be very bad .. I'll start with a few comments .. not much to add at this point ...

My thoughts heading in were that Texas and UNLV would be his best two games of the year ... and after watching Texas it'd be tough to have a much better game ... don't know his comp% but I'd guess it was up there ... no picks ... I thought he played very well ... he certainly played good enough to win .. *L* ..

I tracked his back foot to see what happend to it during the throw and follow through ... I broke it down pretty good ... direction and distance ... it seems the interest in this thread is waning a little bit ... so I'm going to just post the 1st phase for now ... if anyone wants more let me know I will break it down further .. i don't mind spending the time just don't want to do it if its going to be a waste of a very valuable commodity right now ... ... like i said if u want more just ask ..

Next game i want to look at the front foot and see if i can tell when it gets "wide or "short" or is part of a good delivery .... unfortunately my guess is on a lot of plays its going to be hard to tell what way the foot is pointed when it lands ...

I had 4 categories ....

front .. in a "natural" motion ... back foot ended up in front of the front foot ..
side .. that would be even with his front foot or slightly in front or behind it ..
Circle .. the one where it looks like he has no control of it or like he's a kid being swung by an adult ... *L* ...
Jumps .. if i need to define that one i quit ...

Then i broke it down to accurate an inaccurate throws ... here's the results ... I also have times by each pass so if u want some examples let me know and i can give u the time stamps ...

Forward - he threw 12 passes when his foot went forward ... 8 were accuratte and 4 were innacuratte ...

Side - he threw 2 where his back foot landed even with his plant foot ... 1 was (A) 1 was (IA) ..

Circle - he threw 3 passes where he looked like he had no control over his back foot ... 1 (A) .. 2 (IA) ..

Jumps - all 3 he threw were accurate ... these are screens ...

He threw form the move twice ... both were accuratte ...

He threw flat footed once .. it was a wheel route by the RB .. LOS was around the 20 and it was a "fade/touch" pass ... accurate ... it was a TD ...

One pass was tipped ...

I can break the above down into depths and where in the field it was thrown .. right, left, middle ... i have them all time stamped ...

Here's the comments I made on a few throws ...

1:55 mark .. it was to his right in the medium range .. Zip - Wow throw to me ...

6:50 .. Wow throw both good and bad .. through a strike to Hunter between 3 defenders .. he also led Hunter into one of the most vicious hits I've seen in a while ... u can't throw your recievers into that ..

A few other comments on plays but those are the main two ...

There's Texas ...

If any of u want me to look for anything else during the unlv game please let me know ..

Awesome information. Very scientific.

Now, once you collect the data.......you have to do something w/it.

What conclusions [and I do realize that they will evolve as you collect more data] can you draw from what you saw?

I would hope that he would take that ball and run and run it towards that WR with the blue as the WR could come back and get a good angle on a shadow block. Had the makings of a sure first down and a possible LONG RUN. Of course I don't think Army will be on our schedule...lol. His initial stance is way too wide which I think made everything off tiltered a bit.
Fix that and it would/should correct all.

In the illustration the only thing I saw a little ehhh really was where they show and NOW THE BALL HAS DROPPED. With the proof being their Yellow arrow/line there. It looks to me that the ball stayed just under the shoulder throughout...so not so sure on what...but throwing stance was simply way to wide.
jmho

Hope all is well sir ... i know you don't like me anymore .. at least u post like I'm your enemy for some reason lately .. but i still love u my friend ...

The starting base is obviously HUGE .. and u know i understand how important feet are .. back in the day others use to ridicule me about talking about OLman's feet, especially on the outside ... I'm with u on the feet ...

I don't have near the technical knowledge u do ...

Almost all starting positions are shoulder width apart ... for a qb throwing the ball ... is the ideal starting base stance ... .

Shoulder width ...
Something other than shoulder width .. if so .. please explain ...
different for every qb and what is "natural" to them ...

Please elaborate ... u know i love to learn ..

Vers ... please chime in .. would love to hear your thoughts on that ...

If u want to put the data i posted on an island all by itself .. my conclusion would be its inconclusive at this point ... lack of data on the even and circle landing spots .. u had two for even and three for circle landing spots as opposed to 12 for out in front of the plant foot ...

Sample sizes are to small ... i know enough about stats to be dangerous (thats not a good thing) .. *LOL* .. i know we have some real stat guys on here ... they understand stats way more than me .. am I correct in my ASSumptions if any of u stat guys ( i want to say geeks but don't want to offend folks when asking for help) ... *L* .. its a joke fella's ...

If u pushed me into drawing some conclusions based off these numbers .. I'd say ..

- foot out in front is 2:1 accuratte passes to innacurate ...
- even is 1:1
- circle is 1:2 ...

So we need him to throw like Dereck Jeter did and have his back foot follow the throw to first .. *L* .. i understand throwing and pitching a baseball way more than a football .. *L* ..

Now to glean even more info i would need to break it down by category to direction and distance ... as of now that would only be useful on the back foot landing ahead of the plant foot 12 throws ..

Some would say thats using stats and analytics ... and we all know Diam HATES BOTH ... *LOL* ..

What u guys call analytics i call common sense ..
And I HATE how stats are used on here almost exclusively ... I've always said put in context and using MULTIPLE STATS to prove a point is SMART ...

I'm going to watch the rest of the games regardless ... i know you'll talk to me .. just don't get mad as others lose interest ... as long as i have one other person to chat with .. I'll keep posting ..

Just so you know (speaking for myself) interest is not waning one bit. I've been reading and re-reading the posts like yours above.

OK .. cool .. thanks for the info ... thats what i get for ASSuming ... bad diam .. bad diam ..

I'll second that.

From your (Diam) write-up of the Texas game, it sounds like you have confidence that he CAN make the throws he needs to make...but consistency is his issue. Which is a common theme it seems.

Can you glean anything from his ability to read the D post-snap? I know that's hard to really see and I know I personally have very little ability/knowledge to see much in that regard.

Ive never had a doubt he can make all the throws .. never .. i said that in the first sentance of my first post about him ...

My main two questions are:

1. As u pointed out consistency ... cause here's the things with that ... we can fix his mechanics .. and thats all about reps and muscle memory ... now after Hue "fixes" his mechanics ... will his good muscle memory overtake the bad muscle memory when he's under pressure ... thats a great unknown regardless of the # of reps taken ...

2. Mental aspect of the game ... thats two prongued ..

- reading the field ... as u pointed out .. thats really hard to tell in college .. plus the keys and reads are different in college ... one way there different is in college u may have 2 seconds after the snap to read a D ... in the NFL thats prolly halved ...

I'm going to look at that next game ... i can tell u when he scanned the field and when he locked onto his reciever .. but even that really doesn't mean much unless he locks on almost every play .. that means he sucks at it and prolly will have no shot in the NFL .. *L* ..

- then the mental toughness part of the game ...

I love doing this .. and i hate to say it .. but this is a crapshoot IMO .. almost all QB's are ... so we're going to draw conclusions and for me have some fun and learn some getting there ... but IMO the conclusions go out the window once the games start .. and hopefully we don't find out til next year about Kizer .. one thing i do know ... IMO he shouldn't see the field after pre-season ..

I'd also say he's in an ideal situation here .. much better situation than my man Mitch is in ..

Just an FYI. I've been following the thread closely and will continue to do so.

U got anything you'd like me to watch for?

I'd love to hear what you guys can glean regarding his mental capabilities in playing QB.

It sounds like he's similarly inconsistent in reading the D (post-snap).

He does it well sometimes? Further, what tells you when he does do it well (other than not throwing it to the other team, obviously)? Is it watching his head to see if he looks at more than 1 receiver/ works through his progressions?

He's able to manipulate the safeties with his eyes? I believe I remember a couple people say he's really good at this. Would this be an indicator that he can read the field? A weak indicator?

It seems that you guys have everything pretty much covered. I'm sort of curious on how quick his release is and how he does in going through his progressions. Thanks.

DeShone Kizer - QB - Browns

CBS Sports' Jason La Canfora "wouldn't be surprised" if DeShone Kizer is the Browns' Week 1 starter.

Kizer has been drawing raves from coach Hue Jackson at rookie camp. The Browns have no plans to rush him, but it's not impossible he wins out in an open competition with Cody Kessler and Brock Osweiler. Even if Kizer doesn't win the Week 1 job, he should make rookie year starts.
Source: CBSSports.com May 12 - 5:44 PM

I hope he earns it and wrecks the league shocks the world..

Astute analysis by JLC considering our other two options are Kessler and Osweiler.

Personally, I "wouldn't be surprised" if Josh Gordon doesn't play a game this season.

Love all this info. Good stuff! I wish I still had "Finding the Winning Edge" By Bill Walsh He has some awesome info on what to look for in a QB in that book. I had posted some of it on the old Browns board before they took it down... Unfortunately, I loaned it to my brother-in-law and never got it back. Now it seems to have disappeared. 80 bucks I spent on that book. Oh well... Lesson learned. NEVER loan books to anyone! Peace

Considering how often our QB's get hurt it's not unlikely that we go through all three, Kessler, Brock AND Kiser.

I would be flabbergasted if meathead plays a single down this season or any other.

Assuming we don't pull a Miami Sharks..

I wonder if they'd sign a vet to play before putting Kizer in before he's "ready"

Sup Cody.

You are confusing me a bit, bro.

I wasn't talking about stats and analytics. I wanted to know what you saw.

I'm not too worried about being right or wrong. It's not about being safe. It's about watching the guy's tape and offering opinions. It's a message board, bro. It sure beats the bickering that typically occurs.

I've moved on and watched a few more games than you. Here is what I see thus far [and yes, my opinion can change as I watch more, but it's fun to talk about this stuff.]

--I see a few mechanical issues:

1. Front hip opens up some throws, especially when throwing to the left or to receivers who are running from left to the center of the field. This causes his shoulder and elbow to drop and his release point has to be perfect in order to make an accurate throw. He pulls it off at times, but this leads to inconsistent accuracy.

2. Base is a bit too wide on some throws. Not all the time. There are times when he has a great base. It's very important in any sport to have a great base. I will actually expound on this later when I respond to your response to tab.

3. The dramatic right leg kick that is more extreme at times than others. See a pattern here, guys? Look at all three of my criticisms and note that he isn't always guilty of the flaws in each category. I think the dramatic leg kick adversely affects his balance.

I think all three areas are fixable. I think Hue has already addressed number 2 and told Kizer to narrow his base.

Now, his mental game is an unknown to me. I asked you questions. I have been reading like crazy and watching tape. Hard to tell and I am unwilling to offer an opinion at this time.

One last thing. I have noticed that he has some real positives:

--Plus arm

--Makes some good pre-snap reads of the defense

--Good mobility in the pocket

--Good pocket awareness

--Accurate at times

--Prototypical size

--Better runner than I thought

I think it's going to come down to how mentally together the dude is. Will he work on his issues? Can he read coverages pos-snap? Will he go through his progressions? Is he a leader? Can he accept coaching? Will he quit being a puss and stop melting down? I know that one sounds mean and it probably is........but if he thought Kelly was mean, wait until he hears the opinions of John Q Public and the Mean Media that scrutinize every move he makes when the team is losing games, which they almost assuredly will.

Hey Diam...............I think tab was replying to the article that I posted at the top of page 7.

Regarding the base...........there are some minor differences, but yeah, the base should be the classical athletic stance, which is is having the outside of your feet aligned w/the outside of your shoulders. Slight knee bend. Flexible hips w/just a bit of forward lean. 70 percent of your weight on the back foot when setting up. I never told my qbs 70 percent. That's too abstract for many dudes. What I would have them do is put more weight on the back foot and then try and lift the front leg up and maintain balance. You don't want it even and you sure as hell don't want it too far back.

I will say that there are some qbs [who are accurate] that are a bit wider than shoulder width, but it isn't by much.

It's kinda common sense, y'all. I hope you guys don't mind me asking you to try things, but to me.......physical tests [kinesthetic] are better than just words.

Try this..........

Get up off your fat asses....pick something up that isn't too heavy...........put your feet almost side by side and throw that item at the wall as hard as you can. [Not a glass, dude.] Now, spread them out just a bit and try again. Then, try shoulder width apart and try again. Now, get them a bit wider than shoulder width and try again. Finally, spread them out as far as you can and throw one last time. It's obvious where you have the most power.

You can do the same thing w/a partner. Ask your wives........they'll gladly knock you on your fat ass. Pretend you are a pass blocker.........adjust your feet as listed above. Allow her to push you in the chest from each position. There is no doubt that you are a wuss w/a narrow stance and a clumsy clown when too wide.......while you are a true stud that she can't move when you are in the classic athletic stance. Hell, she might even be impressed by your physical prowess and you might get lucky tonight.

Not questioning the logic simply adding to. I admit I haven't watched Irish football this year. Is Kiser missing to the left because of his own accord or maybe a weak receiver? If you are unsure on reliability, you may take extra precaution.

"You can do the same thing w/a partner"


I followed your advice and tried this with the old woman.
After bouncing off the wall a coupla times,she hit me with the frying pan,again.
Now I have a big old knot on my head and I'm seeing double.
Perhaps I should just leave the physical stuff to the young turks.

Kizer vs Texas cont....

1:33s Scramble.
Shotgun. Snugs formation. Begins read from (r) side. Turns down the (r) side read b/c they aren't open. But hesitates when he gets to the open hitch/spot route on the (L) side, scrambles instead.

1:47s

3rd and 13. 15yd Dig. Throwing to the left, receiver from the left.

Footwork looks like a shotgun punch 3 step drop (basically taking 1 step before you go into your actual 3-step drop) OR it could be that his footwork is just off? I say that because even after he gets to the top of his drop he's still waiting on the receiver. Ideal you want to throw on rhythm either at the top of the drop of after a hitch/reset. But on this route he's waiting and basically just hoping/bouncing waiting for the receiver to clear open.

Half field read (L). Into a tight window with good velocity. Placed the ball exactly where he wanted. Still has the trail leg 'kick'. Good ball.

2:25s Gun Empty. Defense blows coverage. Throw to the (L). Receiver gets behind defense. Ball on target, maybe a little too much pace/receiver makes the catch look like more of an adventure then necessary?

3:04 Gun Empty. Throws checkdown to the RB (R) after scrambling from the pocket. Reads middle of the field 1st. Doesn't like the look bails from pocket BUT Hitch on the (L) is wide open. Makes a play on the scramble.

3:11s

Gun. Looks like a variation of 'all go special'. Bad Read. Tries to fit an impossibly tight seam ball to the slot on the (L) covered man-to-man with S help over the middle of the field. He almost pulled it off. He uses his ball placement low and inside to lead/bend the receiver off the vertical stem and into the middle of the field. (Imho he may as well throw the sideline go route). But really he had to checkdowns open and it was 1st and 10. As they say...you never go broke taking a profit. Attempting a lot of unnecessary low % throws on 1st down downs when there are checkdowns open is gonna lower any QBs compl % and overall offensive efficiency. But that's a mix of playcalling and QB decision making.

(Imo there's something off about the timing of his dropbacks and the time/rhythm when he releases the ball. Too often he's in the pocket bouncing/hoping around waiting to throw the ball. He rarely gets to the top of his drop and throws on rhythm unless its play-action. Which makes me wonder about the structure of the offense and about whether or not his dropback footwork is on point?)

3:21s

Gun. 3rd and 7. Deep Dig (R). Similar concept except flipped to the pass he completes at the 1:47 mark. Crowded pocket. Turns down a check receiver on a drag with the defender playing ~2 yards off. The receiver he chooses is open. But the throw is off target (catchable) but the placement should be chest level and its thrown low. He probably doesn't want to lead the receiver to far out in front and keep it low as opposed to high because the receiver hasn't crossed the face of the Safety yet and if he throws it high in front and the receiver doesn't get there then the Safety has a chance at a interception.
And again, he's not throwing in rhythm at the top of his drop.


HALF TIME.

Kizer vs Texas 1st half:


Bad decisions/reads: 13s, (59s), 1:33s, 3:04s, 3:11s
Missed throws (accuracy/placement): 13s, 44s, (55s), 3:21s
Good throws: 17s, 1:24s, 1:47s, 2:25s, 3:04s

Well from everything I have been listening to and reading here it seems his biggest challenges to getting a work load by week 1 would be the huddle communications and accuracy. I believe these are two areas he has to complete live on the field whereas he can do the details in the QB room learning and reading defenses on films to understand his reads, of course he will also have to practice that on the field aswell but huddle communications and accuracy/mechanics are alot more hands on so the question really is how much hands on will he get in the QB rotations during TC and will he show enough progress in those areas for week 1?

That's an interesting point. It triggered something in my memory bank. I'm going to analyze his drops as I continue to watch his tapes. Thanks for pointing that out. Good stuff.

He does get Happy Feet and that in itself can lend itself to not being able to step into throws especially if he trys to make a quick throw to his third or fourth progression.

http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns...om-him-1.766751

Kessler in the driving seat - which makes sense as he has the most starts for the Browns out of current roster. Hope he forces Kizer to sit all year

Didn't know where else to post this.

I'm of a split mind on this point. I see and understand that viewpoint. My concern is the QB class that is supposed to be in the 2018 draft. If Kizer is the guy, we won't need to chase a QB next year. But how will we know if he never gets in a game? To me, the best scenario would be for CK/BO to open the season as starter/back up with Kizer moving in about mid-season. It's a compromise to be sure, but we would better know what we need next draft.

Oh - I only want to start Kessler all year if he is performing like a NFL QB.... My statement was more wishing Kessler to be successful rather than Babying Kizer. . . If Cody doesn't cut the mustard, and we are winless or not looking competitive by week 5, I'd look for them to make the switch to Kizer for the reasons you state.

I know most think Kessler is a back up at best - weak arm and reluctant to throw deep. I am hoping to see a significant improvement. I think Kessler is going to surprise a lot of folks. Now whether he surprises them enough to be a starter full time for 16 games .... that is to be determined.

I understand where you are coming from...however...unless Kizer starts to look like a combo of Brady-Newton, I think we are drafting a QB high next year. Not because he did or didn't look the part...not because Hue is giving up on him...but simply because they (coaches & FO) won't likely "know" what they have in Kizer no matter how much he plays this year.

If Kizer gets in a lot of games and plays well...they will not have a large enough sample size to "know" and risk passing on one of the potential FQBs coming out next year. If he gets (has) to play a lot and struggles it will be too early to tell after throwing him into the fire prematurely.

At least we finally started building a foundation for a young QB to succeed and we won't blow our wad on a QB only to have him play behind the likes of Cam Erving and Alvin Bailey.

i know you don't like me anymore .. at least u post like I'm your enemy for some reason lately .

Huh??? I know that 99% of the time as I'm reading you I have a big Smile on my face Always loved you as a poster and a Friend. You just left for a long time so reading you cautiously and actually try to avoid conflict.

Now if I remember correctly I was saying at the time of throwing I found his feet were way to wide apart thus if thrown hard the back foot has to come off the ground. That is if my memory is correct. shoulder width and comfortable close to that is fine. But in the links provided that I took a look at it was way too wide to be balance.

As for the Jeter throw...the NFL poo-poos finishing on the front leg with it being the only one on the ground due to possible hits and extreme damage to that front leg.

All that is needed is the weight transfer...add that to the hip turn and shoulders...Actually Golf has made me understand that better. But they want some balance with the Feet and the back foot not to leave the ground...the heel of course can come up but a knee bend on the front leg has to be there.

I don't care where his feet are when he gets the ball...well actually I do but don't judge them at the stage. Its when they throw the ball. I thought it was a simple thing to fix and could help him with his accuracy to be more consistent.

Still teaching football big guy. No more Youth...been doing Semi-Pro since 08. We use 6 refs and go by NFL rules...Might put up a tape or two from U Tube as the season starts end of June.

Helps me stay young...my health has sucked...I am holding out for a Super Bowl Championship lol

I got out of that about what I expected. The thing that gives me the most hope is that the kid is smart. I liked the comment about him soaking everything up without being overwhelmed. He's definitely a work in progress and we don't know what the end result will net us. But on the flip side, I think he has more of a base to work with than anyone we've drafted in a very long time.

From the games that i've watched and the current game I'm charting the WAAAYYY to early conclusion for me right now is that Kizer's accuracy will improve by leaps when his footwork is sharp and he's decisive with the throw. When he's throwing decisively with his footwork in rhythm he's accurate whether its left or right or with the leg kick or not.

I recall reading that Kizer was tops in QB rating with play-action. And watching the tape it makes sense. Usually when a QB is throwing off play-action everything is defined. They know they're taking X step drop and throwing to either option A-B-C. The read is defined and the footwork is defined.

Kizer is gonna have to work on his footwork and his knowledge of the play concept so that he can throw as decisively from non-play action as he does with. Too often he gets to the top of his drop and is waiting or hoping around/happy feet. Then when he does decide to throw its off.

I want to watch some 2015 tape next to compare.

Do you think it will take him a full year to make that leap?

Here are his advanced stats from PFF:

Don't mind the tray still being open. I'm not sure why gyazo didn't close it.

I think if he plays we'll see him used a lot like Hogan was. I think we might see more runs than anything.

The only true answer to that question is I don't know. Ideally you don't play him till he's ready....but that could happen at any time. I think they'll set some benchmark or metrics to assess when he'll be ready.

I know Al Saunders used to something called 'shape'. It basically grades a QB's practice everything from footwork, knowledge or the play etc. I think when Kizer is close to Kessler's grades then he'll play.

Here's a link to better explain 'shape':
http://www.silverandblackpride.com/2011/6/11/2218603/al-saunders-raiders-jason-campbell

very interesting. Thanks

This should make you happy bro LOL

Why in the hell does anybody call Jackson the QB whisperer? He has never proven that he has been some great QB coach?

Huh? I like Hue.

Or, am I missing the sarcasm. I'm really tired tonight. Rough day.

Rough day? I had 8.25 tons of pea gravel dumped in my barn drive today. Wife and I (and a friend that showed up for about an hour), shoveled it into wheel barrows, pushed them to the pond, and dumped it.

Only have around 1.5 tons left to do. Tomorrow. If I can get out of bed that is.

LOL...........I know the feeling. My back is freaking killing me.

But yeah..........shoveling pea gravel will do it to you!

i know 1 time i had a side job. 27 yards of concrete. i had 2 guys to help me. They followed the truck in thinking i would be worried. They said were you scared. i said no i can bring the trucks in and do this myself i don't really need your help, but if you want to stay get busy i'll emphty the 1st truck.

i hate shoveling anything. strang because i was a construction foreman.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/06/deshone_kizer_is_in_the_mold_o.html



Says Vers and some others mention this article/comments in another thread and I heard Kizer make a comment about his footwork and how being under center helps him (if I can find the press transcript i'll post) but got me thinking of some of the observations from this thread.

I hope you can find that, but I believe you.

I also think that there were some really good observations in this thread and Lee's comments prove that out.

I think it's cool when posters get together and have a productive thread like this one. It was one of better threads that we've had in quite awhile.

This statement by Lee was also in the article that ed is referring to:



We talked quite a bit about that and if anyone wants to scroll through the thread and find that video I posted of Herman, who was at Ohio State at the time, and the drills he did to help ensure his guys kept a good base, I think it would be educational and help tie things together.

Have him practice with his feet tied to a teather about 1 inch longer than you want his stride. It won't take all that many time of falling over before he gets the hang of it.

Very rocky-esque A great idea too!

@ 6:54 mark.....



Some might take this as a throw away comment. But, to me it harkens back exactly to what I say on film. It seemed like his drop back footwork was scattershot/adlib when he was in shotgun...it was hard to tell what his footwork was supposed be and maybe the offense didn't require him to take a defined drop. But, when he was throwing form play-action with defined drop back (5-7 step etc) he was very accurate and his QB metric were amongst the best.

I'm glad he's taken notice of the link between sharp defined footwork and being consistently accurate. Now the next step is being able to take the defined drop back from under center and bring that same footwork discipline with his shotgun snaps.

Hell watch his feet at the combines, he looked like a Clydesdale trying to backup. feet going everywhere. seriously some of the worst footwork I have seen ever from a prospect that was fighting for a first round selection.

From the brief camp footage we have seen, he is taking much shorter crisper steps and really rotating his hips into the throw. remarkable change in a short time. If he had looked like that at the combines or pro day he would have gone top 5.

I'm truly wondering if this is why Hue is just giving him the bulk of the first team reps now? His progress already shown? I can't wait until training camp and the pads come on to continue to monitor Kizer.

I mean, you just can't beat that arm the traits that make up his frame/body. He's the prototype QB for our division and the type of weather conditions we see throughout the various seasons.

Interesting thoughts on his footwork, thanks guys.

Good observations and I think they are very important to our discussion on Kizer's past and future. The only thing I will add in this post is that it will also be interesting to see what happens to his mechanics when he is actually in a real game.

That's the thing. Some guys u fix their feet and it simply stays fixed. Other guys (Josh McCown comes to mind) will always be erratic for no reason at all.

My thoughts exactly. It will be interesting to see if he practices the proper footwork correctly that it just becomes 2nd nature to him and it just happens without concentrating on it or he falls back to his old self when under the gun in a live game

No doubt. I'm not actually sure IF his footwork has improved or not from the brief little tidbit I see of mini-camp. Its one thing for him to identify a specific area he needs fix and its another thing to make the fix stick. Like you said its all talk until he takes live reps.

Its going to be interesting to see how Kizer's strengths impact the playcalling. IF his footwork is sharper from play-action and under center then it only makes sense to skew more towards "standard" offense then shotgun offense until he's sharp with his footwork in shotgun.

Its gonna be fun watching the kid grow.

Yeah, I agree. I'm a lot higher on him now than before I really started watching him.

The play action thing that you bring up is great. It would be a perfect compliment to our running game and we could see Hue go back to more of what he did w/the Bengals.

Pretty exciting........if it works out.

It is pretty exciting to think that maybe we let the draft come to us and we got our guy.

My views are starting to change a bit. In a poll thread I was more about starting Kiser maybe towards mid season. Unless Brock or Cody tear it up in preseason, maybe we do need to look at Kiser early on. We have a bunch of high picks next draft. Two firsts and three seconds I believe. It would be super duper if we didn't have to spend one, or several on a QB and be able to spend them on impact players at other positions. WR anyone? How about another gold nugget for the OL? A safety or corner, or both? A backer or runningback?

The sun is rising on this team.

Until we're 1-8 and everyone's writing articles about how maybe Hue isn't the right guy, and maybe Moneyball doesn't work..

And then boom goes the dynamite.

(I hate the media)

I thought from day 1 these guys get 3 and more than likely a minimum of 4 years before the thief blows it up ... no matter the results ... IMO he had to based off his previous 4 years of ownership .. we had become the laughing stock of the league .. literally ... and contrary to popular belief it was WELL DESERVED ...

I see no way he fires them after this year .. NONE ... Even another 1 win season won't get them fired IMO .. they get at least one more year ,,, MINUMUM ...

This group would have had to do something extremely stupid like Banner/Dumbardi and then Farmer did to get fired quickly ...

Haslams a thief, not a moron ... he made some BRUTAL HIRINGS in his first 4 years ... ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL .. out of his group of fo and HC hires I would have loved to have seen what Chud could have done ... but the thief f'd that one up by trusting the pencil necked geek and the legacy child ...

For me Kizer is a raw lump of clay arguably more physically gifted then any other QB prospect this year but wasn't as "NFL" ready.

But being a more or less "NFL" ready is a distinction that may only matter over the course of the offseason and i often grapple with how much it matters in terms of ranking prospects.

I was thinking the upside of Kizer's apparent lack of training in the drop back passing game is that he's learning it fresh for the first time as opposed to unlearning and re-learning.

And Hue has been part of getting 2 rookie QBs (spread) new to rhythm drop back passing game make the transition before in Joe Flacco and Andy Dalton.

IF/When Kizer plays i envision an offense similar to Joe's rookie years with the Ravens. Run focused with a complementary play-action based passing game.

Also, Kizer has another aide Tom House to help "whisper in his ear" speed the process along.

Your post made me think about play-action plays and how it baffles me that the play-action is not a staple of every NFL offense. Even when done less-than-great it's still a very effective means of slowing down the D.

I've said this for a very long time. Any time you can freeze a defense, even for a second, it's an advantage to your QB.

How well the 'action' is mimicked isn't the key to effective play action.

A team must show a commitment to run the ball. Teams scout. No defenses worth their salt are going to be effected by a team that doesn't actually run the ball. Say a team has a 60/40 pass/run ratio and doesn't show a tendency to run the ball when trailing by X amount of points in situation X...a defense isn't going to respect it.

Most teams now believe in the passing league mantra. Very few teams build around an offensively philosophy focused on running the ball.

Not many teams stick to it. It's hard to call a run on 2nd down after a run on 1st down only gained 2 yards.

You have to feed the dogs actual food for awhile before the sound of the bell makes them salivate.