DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer

After you finish w/part 2............please join us in breaking down why his accuracy is a problem and if it can be improved. Also, I think the decision making [where to go w/the ball, progressions, speed in doing so, etc] is linked to the accuracy...........so maybe you can address that, too.

No problem .. i think i can watch his tape w/o puking anymore ... there season was almost as bad as ours ... I would dreaded the weekends ..

Saturday would bring a great start and way to many horrible endings ...
Sundays would be worse .. *L* ..

Only thing .. this time u need to do it with me ...

I guess that's Vers and I?

I will. I think it's interesting and it could be like the old days when we really talked football.

Good deal.

I already see 2 reasons for the Mechanical problems.

One play he's got the ball coming from his hip and the next it's coming from his chin. Inconsistent.

Yeah, I wanna hear from you, too.

Just clicking.
http://www.cantonrep.com/sports/20170429/browns-draft-case-for-starting-deshone-kizer

Thanks Diam. Good read, look forward to more.

Did a quick once through of a handful of Kizer's games (Texas, USC, Duke, Miami, Stanford).

Like a bunch of QBS, Kizer is not good rolling to his left.

Unlike some QBs, Kizer can't really throw it from multiple platforms very effectively. If he's out of his slot, his accuracy is generally poor.

I feel like his receivers are pretty good at finding holes in zone, but most run pretty lousy routes (lots of rounding) and have trouble separating from man coverage. This results in him having to try to put it in spots where only his receiver can get it (low and away, etc.) with varying results. Only seemed to really have chemistry with St. Brown and Hunter (who missed half the season)

Had a lot of muddy pockets, and wasn't the greatest at resetting himself. A lot of the time he didn't really have time to. He's generally good at feeling the rush and moving in the pocket, but tries to do to much too fast afterwards at times. Needs to learn that throwing it away in the general direction of a receiver is a better idea than trying to put it on his receivers when he's in an awkward position.

Notre Dame had decent looking rushing stats on the season, but I think it was mainly because opponents almost exclusively playcalled against the pass. Kizer had a lot of weight on his shoulders as the defense was pretty poor due to injuries and suspensions.

Much better throwing to the middle of the field. When he has to open his hips to throw towards the sidelines has a tendency to fall off the ball and not follow through.

Alternatively, he will on occasion when scrambling throw out of rhythm/stride and send it into the dirt.

I'm not sure of a good way to simulate chaos without risking injury, but I think Kizer could use more of it.

On the bright side, he does remind me of a young Roethlisberger. His pump fake is pretty deadly.

He also is pretty good with the ballhandling side of play action, along with his completion percentage when using it.

Can throw great deep balls, though he didn't get as many opportunities without Fuller, and opponents sent a ton of pressure.

I think Hue's system is a great fit for Kizer, especially if the investment in the OL pays off and the running game gets going. I also think if given time to grow together, he and Njoku can be a great combo.

I'm game, would be fun especially if u diam and the others u mention. We doing it in this thread?

Game breakdown/discussion with focus on accuracy?

But which game to start? Already charted 2 but have to find my notes...but willing to start on any game.

I know Vers likes to start with the worst game ... i think thats smart and makes sense ... in this case ... I'd like to start with Texas and go chronologically to see if we can learn anything about how much Kelly actually affected his on field performance ...

Vers ... make sense in this case?

We can throw the NC State (hurricane) game out ... worst coached game I've ever seen ... on both sides ...

QB's couldn't throw the wet ball let alone with the winds .. when they did get it on target the wr's had trouble holding onto to the waterlogged ball by the time ot got there ... *LOL* ...

NC State won cause at halftime there moron coach decided to stick with his running QB and they rammed the ball down our throats while Kelly kept sending Kizer out there and at one point we had 2 or 3 series in a row that were 3 and outs and all passes ... Stubborness is Kelly's 2nd biggest weakness ...

Zaire played one series .. he should have played the entire game ...

Those are my thoughts ...

Vers ... chronological order work for u?

Good post w/a lot of good information. Thanks. I'll be looking for the things you mentioned when I get to watching his videos.

ed and Diam. Whatever you guys want. Starting w/Texas would be good. The thing we have to keep in mind is that he struggled more as the season progressed, right? I also think we might wanna throw out the Hurricane game. No one would play well in that crap. But, up to you guys.

I have a request and I think Jester mentioned this on another thread. I think readers lose interest when you guys do it play by play and say things like rolled right and threw low and away at 2:57 of the 1st quarter.

I prefer to look at the entire game and then try to find patterns or tendencies. Comments like he overstrides w/his front foot too often, or bails from the pocket early when feeling outside pressure, or holds the ball longer than desired. We can come up w/strengths and weaknesses and then classify whether his weaknesses are fixable. Y'all don't have to do it that way, but that is probably the way I'll go. I think we just need to trust one another that we're not gonna make crap up.

I gotta watch the videos because I admit that I got so disgusted w/his accuracy and decision making when watching him earlier this year that I literally stopped watching his games. However, the pick at 52 is kinda growing on me. He certainly has all the physical tools and seems like an intelligent guy. If Hue can fix his issues, we might really have something.

Oh, one more thing. We probably should do it on this thread. The original article brought up a lot of good points and the Draft forum will be closed at some point. This way, we'll have this thread as a reference point during the season if we wanna take a look.

I will be interested in seeing what this brain trust can come up with on this. Accuracy can be improved upon, but it floats on top of many factors in a chain of events before the throw. I would enjoy this breakdown. Can it continue into season like for pre-season games? He must improve some things; Hue can help, but may not cure the kid's QB ills.

Looking forward to it in this thread or its own. Thanks for the work!

Yeah, I didn't mean to make it sound like Kessler was the answer by posting his stats.. Everyone here knows them..

I think you have a good point. He comes, the QB's he's in charge of improve, he leaves, and they take a downward trend.

I guess you gotta make of that whatever you will..

j/c:

Here is an article w/some video of Kizer vs Texas. It addresses some of Kizer's issues. Interesting.

What do you guys see?

Sheesh...........I forgot to post the link:

http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams-...wing-mechanics/

Good article and video to show what the author is talking about. The hips opening too soon is definitely a problem. It's the old for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction idea. If he doesn't draw back/load, he doesn't have enough of the forward reaction. Even if he is loading/drawing back, opening too soon causes him to lose all of that by forcing all momentum onto the front foot and therefore into the ground -leaving all arm. It's like punching something/someone or driving a nail. You hit harder if you draw back first. As a high school softball coach, I'm always preaching the load, staying back and then exploding forward at the right moment. I see some similarities here. At least from the videos in the article, this seems like a correctible flaw.

Here goes part 2 ...

So after year 1, I'm very optomistic .. he can do it all and it appears the inconsistencies with his accuracy issues can be resolved ... at least on the outs ... and I'm thinking working with Kelly over the spring and summer would bring improved consistency and we'd have more than likely the best QB in all of the land ... needless to say it didn't work out quite like that ... *L* ...

Kelly for some inexplicable reason decides to have a QB comp. .. no clue why .. Zaire only started 3 games and played the 2nd half against USC 2 years ago .. and that man could not hit the broad side of a barn ...

Now that doesn't really hurt with his personal development ... he still has plenty of time to work with Kelly on that ... and if the pressure of competition is to much then he is a wuss and is more than likely not going to be able to handle being an NFL qb ... where it does hurt is with him working with his recievers and getting only half the reps with them ...

How much did that hurt ... can't quantify it but it certainly didn't help ... and it really HURT IN THE FALL ... same thing ...

And I'm not making excuses for the kid .. a few of u wanted to go deeper than the pundits do .. well this is how it happend and my thought proccess throughout it ..

Now the season starts ... we lose to Texas and he plays well ... Zaire plays one series n each half . He may have played 3 ... it was obvious to anyone with eyes that his should have NEVER BEEN A COMP .. EVER .... how much did the reps he took away hurt? ...

we crush Nevada and he plays great ... guys running wide open all over all day ... then it starts to go downhill ...

MSU was not pretty ... but we got beat up by a better team .. our OL could not handle there DL .. at least thats what i remember ... i look forward to breaking that game down ... and just so u know .. i only watched this years games once as a fan ... never watched to break it down .. couldn't stomach watching even the wins more than once .. *L* ..

After MSU it starts to happen ... this is the scenario in a 5 or 6 game span of the next 7 games .. not sure if it started in week 4 or 5 ...

1st Q we'd come out and march right down the filed with zero problems on the first 2 or 3 series ... then we'd get progressively worse for the rest of the game ... I've never seen anything like it ... it was also when Kelly started to get rougher and rougher on the sidelines with Kizer ... in one game very early on I said to my bro as they came off .. look at Kizer he's literally going out of his way to avoid Kelly .. then you'd see kelly basically chasing him down and sitting next to him on the bench ...

You could see Kizer literally melting down whenever Kelly "talked" to him ... and thats one of the mysteries .. cause he'd start off great and then get worse along with the team the rest of the game ..

From that perspective it was horrible for him ... but he did not play well .. all his innacuracy issues were there and on top of that BAD DECISIONS all of a sudden became a problem .. not sure how much of that is on Kelly but Kizer was clearly "forcing" things ...

Thats how the season unfolded ...

Most of u know me .. ACCURACY is #1 in my book ... if Hue has to fix 15 Kizer's mechanics his accuracy can improve .. Grimm pointed it out on the sideline throws in 16 ... something about opening up his hips ... i never watched Kizer throw to break it down .. will be one of the things i look for as we go through the tapes ... will look for a bunch of things Grimm pointed out in his post ...

The only reason I have hope for him even though he had accuracy issues is I believe there fixable mechanically ... thats obviously not easy and not a given ... usually i don't think your going to change accuracy much after college ... in THIS CASE I believe it may be possible .. and if it is . He's got al the PHYSICAL tools to be a really good qb ...

That brings me to his leadership and how teammates view him and his MENTAL MAKE UP ...

I question his mental make up cause of how he melted down ... he's young .. prolly the first time he ever faced criticism much less like that ... we won't know about that until he faces adversity in a game .. and he handled that well in 15 ... and in 16 ... like in that streak of great q1 and then lose the lead and play cruddy .. Miami looked like that but he played very well and after Miami took the lead he led us back not once but twice if i re-call correctly ..

As for his "leadership" and how his teammates view him ... not very highly .. I've heard he got along with everyone but no one was fond of him .. he wasn't popular at all ... very cocky and self centered is the word i get ...

He's young .. hopefully that changes ...

He's in an environment to do it ... Hue and his style are perfect for him .. but hue best not cal him out in public like he did Cody last year ... that would be HORRIBLE for Kizer's mental make up until he gains some of his confidence back ...

Oh and this is important also .. Kizer obviously left cause of Kelly ... he should not HS be gone back unless him and Kelly cleared the air ... cause from a draft slot perspective if he came back .. all the young recievers are a year older .. the OL was young last year and will be better .. the RB situation is in GREAT HANDS ...

If he went back and IF he won the starting job ... not sure its possible for him not to put up better #'s because of the improvement of those around him ... thats the thing that makes this so different from anything ever for me .. i think he could become a very good nfl qb while at the same time knowing if he returned to ND it was prolly 55/45 he won the job ..

I like the idea of keeping it in here ... thats fine by me ..

I like your idea of concepts ... i really like it combined with examples (and for me its not trust .. i like to see for myself and see what u do so I can understand it or disagree with it .. *L*) ... i either trust someone or i don't .. you and i are both a lot of things but liars ain't one of them .. hopefully you've realized that about me by now .. ...

Just wanted to clear that up .. it has zero to do with trust from me .. its understanding/learning and asking questions and disagreeing ....

Example of what i would like to see ...

Last time Ed and I did it ... it looked something like this ...

- .48 great throw on and out ..

-1.29 really bad pass into coverage ...

I agree thats not good ... here's what i think may make sense ... let me know your thoughts ...

We give our game synopsis .. then we get to the points ... lets say i conclude he missed on 5 throws ... 3 cause of open hips .. so that would look like this ..

- he missed 3 throws due to opening his hips .. 1:18 ... 3:15 .... 6:12 ...

Hmmm .. not sure thats gonna work either ... sounded better in my head than it looks on here .. *L* ...

Guess we can figure that out when we get into it ..

ED u ready ... i am and i think Vers is ... vers .. u ready ...

Lets start with Texas if thats OK with you Ed ... also u good going chronologically .... let us know and we'll get rolling ..

and PLEASE ... I'd love to see EVERYONE participate in this .. well almost everyone ... *L* ..

Diam, think about Everett Golson. How much did he deteriorate under Kelly? Why did he transfer to FSU? I remember seeing him damn near cry with Kelly yelling in his ear.

Kelly is a total a-hole. But when I was in college, I had a total a-hole of a research advisor. Totally demoralized every one of his students, maybe save one. But I'll tell you what, by the time I got to my job after college, I didn't crumble under challenges from the managers and directors the other members in my department considered "harsh" and "tough." Maybe a little bit of a "Boy named Sue" effect. I'm wondering if Kizer won't have the same effect after doing his time at Notre Dame. Here's to hoping.

Kizer is very young. He just turned 21. I used to see him walking back to the sidelines and Kelly would just tear into him. Some people just aren't meant for that. Especially guys who maybe are tough on themselves.

At my job, i'm that way. When I was third mate, training to do the job, I had a Chief Mate and a Captain who were that way. I don't mind some criticism, but I also like just a little bit of positive reinforcement. Sounds stupid, especially since I know this about myself. But I can't just be broken down, I like a little reassurance, knowing that there's some hope. I got away from that boat as fast as I could (and left with the Captain saying it would have been better if i stayed on their boat for a little longer before taking a promotion. Little did he know, he's the reason I applied for the promotion in the first place). Went to another boat, and got myself what I was better with. Criticism but also some re-assurance that I was at least getting better. Now, I'm pretty good at what I do, and if I want it, I could get another promotion too.

At this point, I'm 32, and was going through this at 27 years old. I hated it, I was terrified of making any mistakes and I didn't feel welcome/any appreciation from my superiors. Put in a different environment, I flourished. I'm happy and I think i'm pretty good at my job. I was never a natural or anything, but I figured it out.

DeShone was 20 years old last year, getting reamed out Live on NBC watched by god knows how many by Brian Kelly, lol. It's not easy for a kid that's probably been told he's the greatest thing since sliced bread until he faced adversity in 2016.

IMO, the best thing for him is to start the season on the bench, watch the guys around him, work on his technique and his understanding of the offense, get comfortable living in Cleveland with a new NFL Lifestyle (instead of college), and build his confidence back up. A red-shirt season. If Cody & Brock & Hogan all look like failures, we can use another high pick on a QB. DeShone was picked 53, he's the fourth guy our team selected. A guy who is a high potential project. If it works out, wonderful. If not, it's not the end of the world. And if we pick up a high 1st round pick QB next year, we can only decide who's the best and trade the other as DeShone's contract starts running out

I just don't think it's smart to send out some just turned 21 Rookie QB, that's trying to get his confidence back, and put him in the frying pan against NFL Defenses that are going to know this and blitz the heck outta him.

Good stuff vers ... thanks for sharing ...

Great point Steve ..

And your 100% correct ...

I told my brother 1/2 ways through year 1 ... if i was Swarbuck .. Kelly would be brought in and told he had a 1/2 a year to improve and by the end of next year u have to behave like a man ... for a bunch of reasons .. for me .. the most important one .. your teaching young men how to behave .. they can't behave like that ... hes setting a horrible example ..

Swarbuck waited til after the year and Kelly was told to tone it down .. amazingly enough what u saw the last couple years he did ... he was BRUTAL to Golson and Kizer but he was worse his first year ... not so much to the dude from Cali that got hurt or Rees who took his place .. but the rest of the team got BLASTED for every mistake ...

Golson was different .. he had his own set of issues ... i was very connected then .. my source wasn't in the room but he was heavily involved in an area that was in the know ...

No doubt Kelly did not help him .. but Golson had an interesting stay at ND to say the least .. I can't put this one on Kelly .. w/o knowing what i do I would make the same conclusion as u ..

My guy retired 3 years ago ... i begged him not to ... *LOL* ..

Pete

Agree with everything u said ... especially about personalities and how u criticize people .. Kelly's problem is .. in the heat of the moment ... he BERATES and HUMILIATES .. thats way different than criticizing ...

We'll see how Kizer responds ... hes young ... how will he handle it .. it may make him stronger like it did u .. hopefully it does .. cause if it doesn't .. he won't ever be good in games .. *L* ..

I just can't imagine that. National Television, getting reemed out by a coach, being 20 years old. He'd come off a great year on a much more talented team, to a much less talented team, and everything is going wrong on one of the most watched teams in the nation. So he's already frustrated and upset, and then you have Kelly doing his thing.

Kelly doesn't recognize that these are kids. They aren't professional athletes. It's not their fault that college football has become the business it has. I mean, at 20 years old, I was still working up the courage to lose my virginity. This kid's failures are being broadcast on National Television with a close up of his Coach screaming at him.

It's just idiotic. I couldn't imagine going through that. Kizer needs to grow and mature, but no way could he go back to Notre Dame, and he'd have to wait a year to transfer. I wish there was a way to RedShirt guys in the NFL

Here's another good one.

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2017/02/2017-nfl-draft-player-profiles-notre-dame-qb-deshone-kizer/

I'm surprised Tom House's name hasn't come up yet.

I suspect DeShone woke up every morning with thoughts of Kelly's veiny red face in his grill. Must have been very depressing. I agree with the post that this could work out in our favor. Kizer may be able to deal with adversity much better. Being treated like a human being will be good for him.

Title of the thread is Hue Jackson: Quarterback Whisperer. Wonder if there should have been a ? at the end. One year of Andy Dalton not throwing insane interceptions does not usually make a QB Whisperer. Maybe he is, but what is the body of work behind this borderline myth? I do agree he has a good temperament, leadership, and sense of integrity. If he develops us one franchise QB then by all means, I'll kiss his ring.

jc

I have to say this is one of the best threads I have read on here for a long time. Not being a football player, the break down on why certain actions by the QB can have an impact on the throw is enlightening. For the first time in a very long time I have a spark of hope for our team. I hope this spark ignites a fire that leads us to respectability in the NFL.

I hear ya, I (don't want to speak for diam) but when doing a game breakdown I think it's important to start with simply charting each play because it gives a context to how often the specific areas of evaluation occur and when (via time stamp) allowing those specific plays to be discussed (I will gif those plays time permitting)

But..it also can be summarized as below:

Clemson vs Auburn 2016

Under pressure plays: 10, 33, 43, 241, 328, 357, 617, 656, 800, 848,
muddy pocket: 126, 134, 258, 433, 953, 1007

Evasion plays: 38, 241, 258, 423, 739, 928
Plus displays of arm talent: 10,220, 310, 331, 458, 531, 630, 800, 848, 1007
Improvisation: 739
Plus progression/cov read: 258, 357, 408, 458, 1007
Movement throw: 33, 739, 909
Run instincts: 601

Held ball/missed receiver: 18
Off backfoot: 848
Off target: 18, 33, 126,134?, 157, 357, 408, 617
Bad Decisions: 43, 126, 656
Tipped: 712
--------------------------
Since the intent is to focus on accuracy there will be specific areas to evaluate.

What areas warrant being examined?

Only speaking for myself, but I'll read every word of you guys' breakdowns of Kizer's games. Play-by-play or more summarized... I'll read it all. I'm excited to learn from you guys.

Okay, that's fine. I would go nuts doing that...LOL.........but, I think between all of us we can kinda weave our thoughts on what we see together and get to the bottom line, which for me is ...

What do we think is correctable, what could be correctable, and if there are things that probably won't get fixed? I haven't watched enough yet to make those determinations, but I did see one thing in that Texas game from the link I posted that I think Hue and his staff can fix. Watch his front hip and how it opened up. I think that can be fixed, but I gotta watch more.

One more suggestion..........I think we need to stop blaming Kelly for all his problems. Everyone kinda knows that Kelly is an ass, but we should probably focus on Kizer's mechanics, decision making, processing speed, accuracy, and ability to quickly make reads. Those are the things that will determine whether he makes it or not. We know he has the physical tools.

This should be fun.

Hell, join in the fun, oober.

Since the aim here is a focused assessment on accuracy then a complete game charting/breakdown isn't necessary.

But, I think specific traits which we feel are important in terms of accuracy and for me those are:

number of off target passes

number of passes with 'plus' ball placement (i.e. throwing a receiver open, backshoulder, leading a receiver away from defender/big hit)

number of snaps of poor mechanics (stance, ball carriage, follow-through, arm angle) maybe this could be broken down further into categories?

Anyhow these are my thoughts, what are you guys? e.g. Vers comment on having his hip was open/closed could be mentioned under mechanics....

+1

+1

I'm good. I have the Texas (2016 right?) game already charted just gotta find my damn notes, lol. But i'll re-watch with the focus on just plays that speak to accuracy without listing the whole game charting.

Amen... And then you draft late round QBs every other year trying to find good backups/replacement

we've drafted a guy in the third round and now second.... If neither are good I hope we draft another next year... You keep looking until you get your guy....

Hey ed..........you are very good at what you do. I was just making suggestions so more people would read and respond. Do whatever you are most comfortable with and what feel is most important. That is kinda what I meant by the "trust" thing. That, and no should make crap up because they either think the FO sucks or is great. Just honest football conversation.

Not sure if I am communicating this right..........just do what you think is best. You're good at it. I respect your opinion and that is why I asked you to join in.

I do think we should include decision making, processing, reads, etc because I have a hunch that they might be tied to his accuracy issues. Does that make sense?

Okay, here is what I saw in the Texas game:

Strengths:

--Nice touch on most throws, whether they be short, intermediate, or deep.

--Decent pocket presence. Does not abandon pocket early on almost ever play. On my chart, I only had him leaving the pocket too early twice.

--Strong runner who squares shoulders upfield.

--Impressive arm strength.

--At times, displays good lower body mechanics where he squares hips to target.

--Did not see too many plays where his decision making was slow.

Concerns:

--Saw several throws where his lead hip got way out in front of his body. Way too far out to the left. This caused his arm to get outside of the throwing frame and balls typically nose-dived before intended target.

--This one was new to me. His back foot really lifts up off high off the ground and flares out to the right on several throws. This results in a loss of accuracy because arm is way out in front of his lower body.

--Has a tendency to overstride w/front foot. On those occasions, the ball sailed high.

Summary:

Overall, a very good game for Kizer. Made some very good throws and runs. Was productive. There were some mechanical concerns that we will have to keep our eye on.

Looking at it from a baseball perspective, he is sorkscrewing his torso. His front foot looks pretty good, in a closed off position, but his back leg swings out to much, causing him to open up. Looks like a overthrower to me. I would have him practice all the throws but have him throw at 75%. Take a little off the ball to tighten up the back side, meaning get the back side in time with the front side.

Kind of the same with golf. Guys overswing, the right side takes over and beats the left side to the finish line. That leads to bad shots. The right side can't simply push the left side out of the way.

Good pitchers and golfers don't put 100% on every throw or shot. They go maybe maybe 80-90 % .

Hue has to get this kid comfortable and confident in knowing his arm is good enough he doesn't have to heave it as hard as he can on every throw.

That 1st video with Texas says alot.

I don't like that Right Leg Kick. At all.

Now to compare ME to Kizer I went out into my backyard with my Son in Law with the NFL football sold today. I threw about 40 passes to all depths left, right and center to see where my right foot ended up on each throw.

I noticed a couple things. Throwing HARD and even softer (80%) to the center of the field and to the right (I'm right handed) my right foot NEVER came off the ground. It felt natural and was easy.

Throws to my left had my foot end up on my tippy toes. Again, it felt natural and easy. So I conciously SQUARED UP and it stopped.

So that aspect is easily fixable with REPS. I correlate that to Muscle Memory.