We have a very young team and a rookie franchise QB so a lot of what we as fans and they as a team experience will be growing pains. I thought we could have a discussion about some of the things we see week to week that show the growth and maturity that will ultimately help make this team great.

Also, I saw this weeks Todd Haley video and consider it a must see for all Browns fans. It addresses that growth and puts to rest any perceived notion of friction between he and Hue. It's a great watch, so enjoy.



Some of the things I've noticed:

All Pro level play by our 1st round CB Ward.

Mature play by our QB, coupled with rookie mistakes. He's playing well, perhaps well enough to win, but mistakes, penalties and refs have hindered that so far.

I saw some chemistry developing between Baker & Landry last week.

O-line seems to be improving weekly, run blocking definitely seems to be improving.

Harrison is developing. He had a rough time last week but he looks very good for a rookie. Very good.

Chubb shows signs of being a true stud.

Njoku is a beast, needs to work on catching the ball more consistently, be he is becoming a real threat.

Ogbah took a huge step last week.

Peppers has really steps up his play, both on returns and in coverage. This is a very good sign.

Garrett is a disrupting force, and it seems as if he's becoming more crafty with his approach.

Our linebackers are solid, and while we need Shobert back asap, Kirksey filled in well for him last week, so next man up was effective.

The same can be said for our secondary, with the loss of Mitchell, I don't feel the drop off has been detrimental. Randall is filling in nicely.

We're looking at a team that could easily be 4-2-1, maybe even 5-1-1.

The coaches are committed.

The players are playing hard every week.

We have been in every game except against the Chargers to the very end.

Draft picks the last few years are sticking and contributing.

What are your thoughts?

(Please, if you feel the need to trash the head coach, please do it in one of the other threads already tracking your sentiments. Thank you.)

Hue talks about growth.

"We're looking at a team that could easily be 4-2-1, maybe even 5-1-1."

Or just as easily be 0-6-1.
You guys whipping up all these great expectations,are soon going to be calling for heads to roll when those expectations are not met.
People need to relax on all this feel good crap.
This team has been hit hard with injuries,and that has exposed a dire lack of depth,something I believe will be addressed this off season.
Rome wasn't built in a day,and this turn around won't happen in a year.

Really enjoyed the Haley presser. I agree with him - were not there but we’re heading the right way.

Sorry, I meant Carrie.

Did you read the thread title? Here's a hint: It's not "Building Rome in a Day"

Did you read what I posted?
A warning about over zealous fans,They'll soon appear pitchforks at the ready.

I agree with a lot of this.

Peppers looks better to me, or maybe just more in his position.
Our defense looks better without Schobert to be honest.
Ogbah looked better last week.
Ogunjobi has gotten better.
Garrett has too, but not in the run game.
Disappointed in Devalve and Zeitler.
Also disappointed in our STs.
I was pleased with Higins' improvement
It also seems like Avery has leveled off.

Thank you for your prognostication.

Nice - I agree with everything you say.

Haley was impressive. I am out of state and don't get to see a lot of pressers and Browns stuff on TV. It was a nice insight into what Haley's about.

As well as the team moving forward - as importantly it is happening year 1 of Dorsey being in charge. Bodes well for continued improvement from a talent perspective.

Hope we put up a competent performance against Pit again.

When you listen to the Williams or Haley pressers. What comes through clearly is experience.

When you look at how you become a head coach. It is a long path. Assistant of some kind for years. Position coach for years. Coordinator or assistant head coach. Then after a shot at head coach maybe back to coordinator.

That is why these guys get recycled. Experience comes at a premium.

In my opinion we have an expert staff. Filled with guys that have great experience.

That is why Haley said "I don't care where a good idea comes from."

Coaches coach. You never stop coaching these guys. That is why the coordination between the coaches and GM is so very important.

I saw a program where Jimmy Johnson and Bill Belichick went fishing. Bill said "Jimmy you taught me to pick smart players. Players you can coach." Johnson then said "the most important guy in any organization is the guy that evaluates players."

If the Browns are to succeed Schobert and players like him need to be all through the roster. You can't have all super stars. But you can have guys you can coach to "do their job".

Get good players who you can coach. Then never stop coaching them.

Another good thread topic.

I've said this before the season and have continued to say it: This season is about two things. Developing our young talent and learning how to finish games.

Listening to both Haley and Hue talk, it's undeniable that they see it the same way.

Before I get into this, I do want to say that some of the media folks are so focused on trying to start and nurture controversy. It's very sickening to witness. They made a big deal out of nothing. It's an emotional game and it was an emotional loss. And it wasn't much different from when Hue said he was going to help out w/the special teams. Amazingly enough, the special teams have outplayed their opponents for the last three weeks. Coaches helping one another and working together is not a bad thing. I'll leave it at that. Back to the Development and Growth subjects.

Development:

Baker is gaining a ton of experience. You can tell from Haley's comments that Baker is struggling w/some things. It hasn't been easy, but as Haley said, "it's a process." The key is that he is developing.

We see a young guy like Chubb getting more opportunities. It's about developing him.

Ward is developing into one of the better corners in the entire NFL. And I am going to go out on a limb. I think he is the best player on our team. Right now. Today.

Garrett is in his second year and his development has been great this year. He's a much better player than last year.

Njoku has improved this year. He is still inconsistent, but he is trending upwards.

Harrison is amazing me. He is actually developing into a very good LT. In year one. That development.

Growth:

The team is growing, but it's not easy. Again, as Haley kept saying: "It's a process." We are losing more than we win, but think about this........we have taken four games to OT this year and we couldn't do that last year. We have also won 2 games and tied another. That's growth. We're learning how to finish games, but it's a hard process.......especially because this team had endured two straight years of epic losing. That is so hard to overcome.

Summary:

I see both development and growth in the players, coaches, and overall team. I even see it in the organization. This is the best group we have had since our rebirth. Obviously, development and growth are closely tied to one another and we can see both steadily improving. I know some don't want to hear it, but I am encouraged by what I've seen from this team. I feel we are developing and growing in all the right ways.

Growth is always a process.

I agree with your post.

It is ironic that finally an organization is forming right in front of our eyes.

And many are blind to it.

We have all screamed for continuity and now we are so close. Yet people want to hire again.


That is why I went into where coaches come from and how they get to be head coaches.

Yet the merry-go-round in the NFL continues. Everyone wants the hot coordinator. Defilippo is now hot.

Just has Hue and Haley once were.

Football has been around a long time now. There have been tons of changes in the rules. And there have been many football minds come to the game.

Honestly I see things today that I have seen before. From Walsh to Kelly to June Jones. Innovation ?

I don't know. Nobody has a magic potion. Eleven on eleven on a field. Snap the ball a people move to where they are sent. At some point you have to win a matchup.

Some guys are great teachers like Marty. Some are intimidating motivators like Parcells.

Some guys are great schemers like Belichick.

But in the end as I said before it is organizations. It takes many to be good to win.

I think Baker is a natural intelligence guy ... he really understands things well. This is probably the first time in his life where the mental side of the game isn't "easy" ... this is good. He will put the time in. He will be WAY better off for playing this year in all of these situations

Yes, valid points. I didn't post Baker's presser here because most of the questions were more suited to the ref's thread, but the thing I did notice was his quiet intensity when discussing what they needed to do to get better. Basically he was saying they don't need wholesale changes to the offense, just the commitment to perfecting their craft. He mentioned (and is aware) that great teams become great by doing what they do over and over until it becomes second nature. He knows they aren't there yet, he knows he has to develop his chemistry with the receivers, but he comes across as being intensely committed to getting there. It's refreshing to see a QB wearing brown & orange with that level of intelligence and commitment to perfection.

Nice to see someone play like it mattered to him. This kid gets solid marks from me for that.

I want to see better line play and consistent catches. Move chains long enough, something good has to occur.

I am OK with that starting tomorrow.

No offense Bard, but I really wish people would stop blaming the line. All you have to do is listen to Haley's interview or read the breakdown of plays in the last game to understand that Baker has been struggling.

I hesitate to bring that up because someone will jump my ass for being a hater. I'm not hating. Dude is a rookie and he is struggling w/some things. That's inevitable. I simply don't like other players and coaches taking the blame for his issues.

It's a team thing. Both good and bad.

I do see times when Baker kinda freezes. Either the defense didn't do what he expected, his first read isn't there, or he can't see through the DL.

It's gonna take time. I do like a lot what I see though.

Yeah, it's definite part of the growth process. Once he learns the defenses and recognizes what he sees, and knows where all of his receivers are going to be on every play, he's going to be very effective. And very dangerous.

I'll also add that it seems like he and Landry have become more connected

The only reason anyone would label you a hater of Baker is because you're overly critical of him. I think you called his play in the Chargers game horrific. Gross overstatement. Kid had like more than 5 plus level throws. He wasn't perfect and made his share of mistakes, but "horrific" is really extreme and out of context considering he was starting his third ever game. It's that type of embellishment that gets people labeled.

Back to the topic. In an ideal world we start winning some games and get to maintain continuity. I think I think that's best for team growth. I'm undecided on Hue. A win tomorrow will go a long way in helping keep everyone in place. A blowout will be hard to stomach.

One other thing I think I think. I think it's important in sports to strike when the iron is hot so to speak. I think there should be a natural progression and teams should grow the longer they stay and play together. But I don't think that guarantees anything. It doesn't mean in three years you'll magically be playing in the playoffs because everything the team is doing is relative to the rest of the league. The rest of the league isn't standing by waiting for the dregs of the league to get better. You have to find a way to start winning some games for confidence and momentum. Confidence and momentum just can't be underestimated in contributing to wins and losses.

The Browns simply can't go 2-13-1 the rest of the way, then rest on this notion that they are growing and developing even if they are competitive in every game. They need to start winning some games. Tomorrow would be a great start. I was impressed with the collective press conferences of Hue, Haley, and Baker this week. Considering all the stuff that came out after last week's loss, they played it off well. If the team and coaches can block out the noise and start stringing together some wins that would best for "team growth".

You make some valid points but asking our Browns to win tomorrow and then next week against the Chiefs is a lot especially with all the injuries. The injuries have slowed our development and the lack of depth hurts.

Sorry Cal, I appreciate your thread..........but, after Rish's post.......I'm out! I'm not dealing w/that crap anymore.

Every team has injuries. At some point you just have to out play/out coach the other guys.

It's a tall challenge tomorrow but not undoable. It would be very disappointing if we laid a big egg. At a minimum hopefully it goes down to the wire if we lose. But a win will go a long way toward "team growth".

Apparently I yield some power on here.

If anyone would like Vers out of a thread they are participating in, shoot me a PM.

I completely agree. It's time to string together a few wins. The Lions were a complete laughingstock, then over the last 4 weeks they beat the Pats, Packers and Dolphins and should have beaten Dallas. Now they're getting some respect (at least in these parts). Up until now, Matt Patricia was just another failure that fell from the BB tree, they didn't have an NFL caliber defense, Stafford had no weapons, etc. Winning changed that perspective, and I really believe we have more talent than the Lions do.

The big reason given that we were 1-31 was due to the lack of talent. Well.... I don't want to hear that "Rome wasn't built in a day". The Lions built it in 4 weeks. Sure, they could flop and lose out the rest of the season, but they've already won as many games as we have in 3 seasons.

Makes sense ... comparing us to a VETERAN LADEN team cause they have a new coach and started off bad is a SPOT ON COMPARISION ... ...

The fact u think our pups led by a pup should progress at the same pace as a VETERAN LADEN team LED by a VETERAN QB pretty much tells anyone all they need to know ...

That would be like comparing Itialian meals from a 5 star restaurant in Italy to your local Olive Garden Italian meal ... it would simply be BRILLIANT!!!

And I IGNORED this buet ...

Stafford has no weapons .... ....

I know it was just a gaffe ... but come on bro ... Stafford has weapons coming out his bEHIND ....

IMO, we should be trying to mirror what KC and LA are doing with a young QB ... and playmakers.

We SHOULD see a big jump next year IMO

I'm repeating what everyone in the media was saying, namely after their preseason and them getting throttled by the Jets. I don't know where you got that the Lions are a 5 star restaurant, but no one on this planet was saying that after the first couple weeks of the season. Can you honestly say you expected them to turn things around like they have? People were saying that Golden Tate has lost a step, Marvin Jones couldn't get open and they had no running game. They did look like crap.

I don't see why we shouldn't expect a couple wins in a row this season... pups grow and learn rather quickly, don't they? Maybe you do, but I don't think that a 4-11-1 season where most of the games are close will be considered successful.

Ian Rapoport
‏Verified account @RapSheet

#Bucs WR DeSean Jackson requested a trade from Tampa Bay, sources say. The team has resisted. But an intriguing name to watch.

The Wall Street Journal
SPORTS NFL
Cleveland Browns: Win, Lose or Draw—the NFL’s Most Entertaining Team

The Browns may not be good yet. But with Baker Mayfield, Myles Garrett and four overtimes game, the start to their season has been gripping.

By Andrew Beaton
Oct. 26, 2018 8:00 a.m. ET

The first game of the Browns’ season laid out a blueprint for pretty much everything that has happened since. Cleveland’s year has been simultaneously disappointing and promising. And it’s been altogether exhilarating.

The Browns tied that opener against the Pittsburgh Steelers 21-21. It was a letdown because they probably should have won the game, which included a Cleveland interception near the end of regulation and a missed field goal in overtime. At the same time, the tie was encouraging: The Browns, a team that lost every one of its games a year ago, walked out with a tie against a perennial Super Bowl contender.

The Browns play the Steelers again on Sunday. And since the season’s opening week, Cleveland has proved again and again why it’s the most entertaining team in the NFL this year.

To be clear: The Browns are not the best team in football. At 2-4-1, they are decidedly mediocre. And sure, the Chiefs are 6-1 with Patrick Mahomes and the best offense in football. Yes, the Rams are undefeated and lighting up Los Angeles.

But the dramatic path the Browns have taken on their path to mediocrity has been nothing short of gripping. It started with appearing on actual sports reality drama: HBO’s Hard Knocks before the season. It has continued with a thrilling string of nail-biters.

Of Cleveland’s seven games, four have already gone to overtime. Less than halfway through the season, that’s already one short of the NFL season-long record for overtime games. Another game, a heartbreaking loss to the Saints, ended on a field goal with under 30 seconds left. Only one of their games has been decided by more than four points.

So while the Browns are frustratingly close to having a good record, they still have a bad one. Yet this start is still an improvement over the previous two years when they won a grand total of one game. Those epic struggles made them a spectacle of futility.

Now Cleveland doesn’t only have optimism. It has some of the most exciting young talent in the league.

Quarterback Baker Mayfield, the No. 1 pick in the draft, entered midway through a game against the Jets and led the Browns to a comeback win. Mayfield has struggled at times, too. But even before he stepped on the field he was a bona fide star who had won the Heisman Trophy and earned fans—and haters—with his outsize personality.

He’s not the only exciting prospect. Defensive end Myles Garrett has seven sacks. Rookie cornerback Denzel Ward looks like one of the game’s emerging lockdown defenders. Running back Nick Chubb is averaging more than 7 yards per carry.

There’s evidence the public is enjoying all of this: The Mayfield-led comeback over the Jets was the most-watched Thursday Night Football game on the NFL Network since 2015.

Link

We have more talent, which leads to the expectation for more wins. However, a lot of that talent came with youth. We have a bunch of rookie starters. It's a little bit wild if you stop to think about it. Starting rookie LT, rookie QB, rookie WR, rookie RB, rookie CB. And those are just the starters. Our current 3rd WR is also a rookie. Our rotational pass rusher is a rookie. Njoku is still only 22.

We're almost trotting out half of a college team. All of our skill players on O are in their 1st or second year except for Landry, who while great at what he does, has clear limitations (if you scheme to neutralize him, he's probably not going to beat you anyways). The offense's struggles really shouldn't be all that surprising.

I think how we come out of the bye will be paramount. Obviously growth every week is key. The bye, though, should give the rookies a chance to catch their breath a bit and take stock of everything. They won't have to go straight to working on the next opponent. They can focus on themselves and the big picture for a moment. They can look at how defenses in general are trying to neutralize them.

Getting Higgins back won't hurt. He had his own youthful adjustment period.

The youth of this team is a very good point. They're learning how to be an NFL team, while also trying to win games. It's somewhat surprising, and a testament to the coaching staff, that they're playing as well as they are.

Drive down and score on the opening drive, that's a sign of growth.

And D forcing a punt.

Scratch what I said

I don't see any growth.

This is the only fan base in the world that wants to give their team 3 year groupings to improve.

They always said smoking would stunt your growth well I would say Hue has stunted this teams growth ...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Team growth. Like a tumor. A cancerous tumor. Get it out.

This thread didnt age well huh?

few steps back today.

Anyone who does not think Baker is the the perfect QB is labeled a hater here.

I think Vers praised Baker many times here, honestly I think most of the fans just saw what they wanted to see.

BM is a rookie and has limitations on his game. People are demanding too much for him, and actually wanting a QB that's not him, and that's probably going to ruin him.

He is a rookie, and he is struggling, its just normal.

Use the run game, and stop demanding so much from him, let him do what he is good at.

Maybe time to insert TT back... it worked for the Bills

Question for all you sardonic wits: Which of you were sure we were going into Heinz field today and beat the Steelers raise your hands? This team needs a few all out ass kickings just as much as they need the experience playing teams like the Steelers, winning close games against the Ravens, and losing close games against the Bucs. Today they were outmatched, outclassed, and outmanned. The loss stinks, from it should come growth. It should also serve to show that we are still woefully shy of talent, and woefully young and inexperienced. If you think about it, it's actually more shocking how poorly the Steelers played against us the first time, and during the 1st quarter. They're seasoned and stacked with talent. They should've won. There's growth here.

I actually thought they would lose by a little more. 17 was my number.

There will, of course, be growth, maybe a little, maybe a lot. Who knows?

cal, you just hit on the source of our incompetence. that team is “loaded with talent” and we are not. Yet I would bet that in the past ten years we have drafted, on average, 20-25 spots higher than them. We should be the team loaded with talent and we are not. We have sunk a ton of dough into an offensive line that was a sieve today. I just do not know if we are ever going to be a regular playoff contender.

This is excuse making.

Losing is not growth.

3-36-1 is not growth. It's a sign that something isn't working.

You could maybe argue growth if the team was competitive and kept it close, but they were completely outmatched. At no point were the Steelers threatened or did it appear they would lose. At no point did the Browns figure out the Steelers D or appear to have any answers to counteract it. The defense gave up.

I don't see any signs of growth.

Oh, but injuries. Oh, but no talent. Oh, but no depth. Oh, but, but, but, but.

The Browns stink. The only thing the Browns had going for them early was a promising young D and a promising young QB. Both of those have regressed. If we were experiencing "growth" wouldn't we expect to see these only bright spots continue to be bright spots?

I mean how do we measure growth? Where is the growth you speak of? Just giving more time doesn't mean there will be growth.

I will come back to this thread even though I said I was out. The reason for that is two-fold. One, Cal doesn't deserve me abandoning it after I asked for more football threads. The second is that I want t express my thoughts on the team and I refuse to go back to the Hue threads or talk to any of the guys who are acting despicably.

This game was not lost due to coaching. Hue did not do one thing to lose this game. Talk of firing him is nonsense.

This team did not show signs of quitting on Hue or Haley. They came out and dominated the Steelers in the first quarter. The problem was that we could have been up 21 to 0 after the first quarter. Instead, we were up 6 to 0. That isn't coaching. It's lack of execution.

Baker did some good things, but he struggled against the blitz. The OL struggled against the blitz. I saw Chubb miss blocks on 3 consecutive plays. It's execution.

That is to be expected w/a young team. I see positive growth, but we got overwhelmed by a superior team.

I see people talking out their ass about Hue holding Baker back. That's dumb. Next year, the excuse will be "Baker is playing w/a new HC and OC in just his second year. The talent is different. There is no continuity."

Stay the course. This team is getting better.

And I'm going to say this before one of them says that I am afraid to answer their questions...........some of you may have noticed I am not talking to guys like peen, Memphis, cfrs, rasta, Rish, 4life, etc any longer. Their behavior this past week has been beyond deplorable. I tried to debate w/those guys, but it's gotten much too ugly.

Talk of firing him is nonsense? Have you seen Hue Jackson's record?

He is just beating a dead horse....

Its just a question of timming, think Dorsey is not going to let this thing rotten, bye week is the perfect ocasion.

I get the frustration, but you can't hold all the previous draft busts against the current administration, and losing Joe T this year was a huge blow. Had he not been injured last year he may have given us another year or two to prepare for his departure, but that didn't happen and asking Dorsey to fix all the holes at once this year is asking the impossible. I imagine WR, OL, LB & CB will be top priorities this year.

Head coach is the first priority... Define a team identity, get someone that knows how to coach a team.

Adding talent is secondary in my opinion, its just wasting players and time.

Hmmm......
The scientific method would seem applicable here:
Constant - Hue
Variable - players
Result - well, you know.

It's ridiculous to think the 2026 & 2017 teams were capable of winning anything. Or to trot out Hue's record for those two seasons as a reason to fire him, but you, many others, and the media will hang your hats on that. So there's no reasoning with that. You believe you're right. So be it. I believe you're wrong. I think this season will be rough with ups and downs. I believe next year will be better, and the year after that better yet. I just hope I get to see it without blowing it up and without having to reset the clock. I do see growth in losing. You have your take, I have mine. I can live with that.

You're leaving out an ass load of other variables. Age, experience, the other teams, refs, and so on. But I think you know that.

I disagree.

I think you are being proved wrong. It was never a matter of talent..

Sure we were never going to the post-season, but we had enough talent to be competitive.

I guess you are so far down that road, that you will never turn back, no matter what.

lol, no one in this discussion is proving anything. It's all opinion. The only thing that will prove anything is time. You want to be proven right, give the man time and talent. If he fails, you're right. I'll throw you a party.

People are ignoring that Sashi completely dismantled the team and we has almost zero talent on the team the first two years. Constant losing has long-term effects.

I made countless posts about how hard it was going to be to overcome such epic losing. The same guys who loved Sashi are the same guys blaming Hue for all the losing.

We have a new GM now in Dorsey. He is improving the talent. The team is young and inexperienced. They don't know how to win yet.

While discussing the team on Diam's Optimism thread, I tried to warn people of unrealistic expectations. The fallout can get ugly. And it's ugly right now.

Of course, there are posters who were going to complain no matter what, but now others are actually believing the crap they spew.

Time and talent, why should we give Hue anything.... Team is regressing.

You are making no sense, its beating a dead horse.

Cal, what are you basing the growth on?

I just went and reread your list to start the thread. Most of those items did not occur today. Should they occur every week to continue to demonstrate growth?

The team has regressed for three straight weeks. Baker has regressed for three straight weeks. The defense has regressed for three straight weeks. In a period of growth, should that be the case?

I like that we can agree to disagree. Doesn't bother me at all. This is not a place to get emotional about anything. But what I'm telling you is I think you and others are hoping that stability will bring team growth because I'm not seeing it on the field.

There is no tangential evidence to support your claim. In my opinion, it's only subjective wishful thinking.

Man, you should start a cult...

Holding up Hue's record his first two as a reason to fire him is low hanging fruit and I expect the media and most fans to grab it with both hands. Nature of the beast. Hell, I even understand it. It's just that I've been watching football a long, long time, and I see good things here, for the first time in a very long time. I see no reason to blow it up, especially over something as silly and meaningless as fan/media impatience.

Yeah, it's to the point where I watch a game and I am thinking about how certain people will use this or that to simply bash the Browns and Hue. Those posters have taken the fun out of a season that I think has shown growth.

The sad thing is their biased negativity is adversely affecting the team. It sucks listening to negative comments day in and day out when you are busting your ass. I played and coached. Believe me, I know all about it.

You're assuming because you didn't see it this week that it isn't there, that's the nature of growth on a football team, the consistency isn't always there, it comes with maturity, this is far, far away from being a mature team. And it's not just time, or stability that will advance this team, it's experience, coaching, more infusions of talent and so on. It's just too early to blow it up. It's the definition of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. And I haven't seen regression the past three weeks, in fact, we were very competitive last week. We just didn't bring it home. For whatever reason, but we could have. that's how it goes at this stage.

Oh, yeah. But, at this point, all I can do is make jokes about it.

What do you want me to say, you're right, I'm wrong? Not going to happen, I think it's you who is beating the dead horse. If you're not satisfied with my answers, leave it alone and move on. I don't care what you think, you're entitled to your opinion, I'm happy you have one. I know you're a Browns fan, that makes us brothers, I just don't agree with your take. No big deal.

Talk about young talent, if they can keep the team together long enough to see them grow into something special.
IF.

Then they shouldn’t listen. Or, maybe win once in a while. Up to them.

Would you take the teams record, in the 8 games yet to be played and playoffs if they make it?
If so, What would = progress?

Honestly, looking at the remaining schedule, I'll be happy with another win and competitive play in a few of the others (Denver, Ravens, Falcons). But that's just me. I don't think we have the talent to compete with the remaining teams we have to play. Any wins at this point would be bonuses. But I damn sure don't believe an interim coach will magically make it happen. What I would say at this point is, brace yourselves, it's going to be ugly. I hope the Haslams can stay the course.

Regression yesterday. Baker's getting destroyed, and looks like a different dude. No separation from WRs. TE's are absent. OL is a sieve, literally. Defense gets gassed and folds. Kicker leaves 4 points on the field.

Two steps forward, one step back ...

Were not quite there yet bro ... we’re at the

1/2 a step forward, two steps back phase ...

Hopefully we get some guys back next week and can heal up over the bye so we can see some progress on the field over the last 7 weeks ...

I want to point out something that at least a few people may remember.

While posters are complaining about our coaching staff in general and Hue in particular, it was the Browns who came out of the gate w/energy and focus.

We completely dominated the Steelers in the first quarter. It could have easily been 21 to 0, but we didn't execute as well as we should have in the red zone.

Some might even remember the Steeler fans were booing their own team. Talk of the team quitting on Hue is nonsense. We were the team who came out playing better. We had way more energy than they did.

We got beat because the Steelers have a better team right now. Changing coaches won't change that.

Quoted for truth.

We did come out playing better, you are right. But the team absolutely quit. They might not have quit on Hue, but they absolutely quit during this game. I saw Myles give up a few plays late, and others as well let Connor run right past them without even an attempt to stop him.

They may not have quit on Hue, but they quit on this game - absolutely.

Now they can quit on the season.

I agree Vers ... i asked Swish in PM’s this morning (didnt dare ask on the board at the risk of getting crucified by the vultures ... *L*) ... if he thought we gave up or were just overwhelmed ... i was out with friends and was only half paying attention after the 1st quarter ..

Our O is definelty overwhelmed ... and WILL CONTINUE to be so the rest of the year ...

The thief caved bro .. nuttin we can do about that but hope for the best ...

I find it hard to hope for the best when this franchise keeps making the same dumb mistakes time after time.

Things were finally looking up and we blow it up yet again. I'm beyond disgusted.

So a couple things I noticed the past few weeks.

Special teams is playing better.

The O-line seems to be gelling. Run blocking is looking very good and Baker is staying clean.

I think we can safely say the play calling has been effective.

Along with the execution.

Baker is developing chemistry with his receivers.

You can see a team forming under his leadership.

We're seeing sustained drives.

Good pass run ratios.

The defense is looking opportunistic.

I'm really impressed with how the secondary is playing, especially given the injuries.

Collins seems to have gotten the memo to show up on game day.

Our four man rush is getting pressure (if not a ton of sacks).

We've become a turnover machine on D.

The team is having fun.

We finished a game strong.

Agree with everything you just wrote.

Hard to believe how much better the team has looked since Hue was fired. I was not expecting that at all.

I think we need to see more - the two games we played against had 2 of the worst defenses in the NFL. But it's encouraging. I'm actually looking at the schedule and thinking we can win games. I like playing the Bengals after the bye week - that will also be a super interesting game to watch and see how prepared the team is and if they continue showing better discipline & execution. Season is fun again as of right now!

I too am impressed by how the team has looked since Hue was fired. This is easy to say after the Falcons game, but they even (kind of) held their own against the Chiefs, all things considered-- the injuries, the shakeup in the coaching staff, and also the Chiefs are one of 3 or so teams that are just on a different level this season.

I also was not really expecting this. I kind of thought keeping/firing Hue was damned if you do, damned if you don't, and while it obviously had to be done, wouldn't lead to much benefit during the season. In reality, the team seems re-energized, more disciplined, and there's been a huge improvement on the field and I imagine in the locker room as well.

Hopefully the team can keep improving and growing during the bye week. How sweet would it be to go and smash Cincy in their own house.

(deleted: accidentally quoted instead of editing my above post)

Saw this Peyton Manning breakdown on Baker:

http://www.espn.com/watch/?id=2759fd0b-01f6-4b1c-944e-1e919d4442d2

Peyton is a perfectionist. Details. Practice never ends.

I love that about him.

He shows the good and bad.

But what I think is so cool is to track how Baker learns and develops.

These last six games are so important in Baker's development. Every game is an opportunity to learn so much.

I am encouraged because the last couple games he is showing that growth.

Any chance you’ll pm me your username and password ...

Please? ... ....

Much like the bump in energy/execution that came with our QB swap, it'll be interesting to see if the team regresses back to the mean after 1-2 more games. I figure shakeups at QB/HC/etc. have an effect for up to 3 games before the team settles back into its normal habits. It will be very telling whether or not this happens.

I'm not going to rag on Hue but I do think the controversy between he and Haley was unhealthy.

I'm really looking for a division win on the road as the next major step forward.

I think Hue was just not very good, and Haley was too interested in trying to shoehorn players into HIS system, instead of allowing the players to do what THEY did best.

Now that, my friend, would be like marshmallows on a fire. If our staff can engineer that, I'll be more convinced in keeping them on than re-booting again. Win in BAL - give them the keys. We win 3 of the remaining games then the incumbents have to be front runners. Add Arians. Job done.

If we don't, then start again knowing we have a legit QB.

I think you are over reacting this time.

As of yet we have not blown anything up. I believe we actually , from what I have seen, Upgraded on both accounts. HC and OC.

We still could have continuity. Don't wish the Blow up that you speak of. I don't wish to lose Williams nor Kitchens.

Perfect scenario is with Arians coming here and convincing Williams to stay and Kitchens staying also as the OC.

You could be right with the blow up. But it has not happened yet.

Best case scenario - Williams wins a ton of games and we keep it just the way it is, no blow up but an upgrade at HC and OC.

HOPE/WISH

Several things are different this time.
1. We got a real GM seemingly making all the right moves.

2. We have a Franchise QB.

3. We have a lot of young talent where for the first time we are actually a very very attractive team for a new HC to come here and take it to fruition.

jmho

A few things I noticed this week that show growth.

They showed an ability to drive down and score on the first drive. That's what good teams are able to do, and that's what we did today.

We won on the road against a division opponent, winning a must win game to keep playoff hopes alive.

The team looked relaxed and confident, something we haven't really seen yet.

No drops by the receivers. Chemistry is developing between Baker and the guys.

Njoku is progressing. He is going to be a beast, and looks much better than he did earlier. Still needs to learn to not leave his feet unless it's absolutely necessary.

Very few penalties. There was a costly roughing penalty at the end that gave Cincy a first down, but overall the team played disciplined football.

Even when it wasn't working we kept running the ball, confident it would pay off. That shows growth and confidence in the run game.

The team didn't crumble when momentum shifted.

They made plays when needed to close the game out.

Find the QB and the coach and the rest will follow.

GM... Dorsey is playing a key role.

it's amazing how much better our team looks when we have good QB play

Its amazing how much better the team is with a coach that knows what he is doing.

Baker isn't the major difference, although he is helping. the absence of HUE is.

Baker isn't a major difference?

Do you watch the games?

Baker isn't THE major difference.

The MAJOR DIFFERENCE was firing HUE.

Do you watch the games?

If Baker is not a major difference then I guess we could start TT or Stanton and the results would be the same?

The difference is Baker and the team around him. As well as good game planning and play calling.

It is so obvious that Baker is driving the bus. If you don't see that I have no idea what you are looking at.

Baker, Chubb, OL blocking better, receiver chemistry are major factors.

Coaches don't make plays on the field. Players make plays.

Well, the right GM finds both of those so I assumed that was implied.

Baker is making a difference.

Attitude is making a difference.

Discipline and confidence are making a difference

But for me its all about Kitchens, last week agauijnst a team weak in the middle he went max protection, brought multiple tight end sets, limited motion to the tight sets and even a three back set.

This week, wneh Hue looked prepared to clog the middle( see Chubbs YPC) and was selling out to stop the run, he came out in multiple five weide sets, moved TE's out, used one back offense and as will be open when the LB's are pulled into the box deeper crossing routes. He afforded better protection by moviong th pocket some and giving readily available check downs to Mayfield. One st

Baker is making a difference.

Attitude is making a difference.

Discipline and confidence are making a difference

But for me its all about Kitchens, last week agauijnst a team weak in the middle he went max protection, brought multiple tight end sets, limited motion to the tight sets and even a three back set.

This week, when Hue looked prepared to clog the middle( see Chubbs YPC) and was selling out to stop the run, he came out in multiple five wide sets, moved TE's out, used one back offense and as will be open when the LB's are pulled into the box deeper crossing routes. He afforded better protection by moviong the pocket some and giving readily available check downs to Mayfield. One stat that jumped out at me, we had five receivers with pass plays over 21 yards, no dink and dunk crap.

Now the next game as a DC what do you prepare for, tight sets or spread out sets, crossing routes where you need deeper LB sets or seam routes where the you need two high safeties that clog the middle.

Kitchens is dialing it up, and Mayfield is doing all that is asked from him, and more.

j/c...

Not necessarily a response to you exclusively, but a general response to a phrase you used.

“dink and dunk crap”

Short, accurate passes that open running space for backs and receivers are a very, very effective tool for ANY offense to be able to use.

It’s one of my favorite phrases to hate.

Use whatever you need to use to win.

Actually he used the dink and dunk pretty effectively against Atlanta, that was kind of part of my premise.

But I understand your angst at the term, I n fact most terms seem to have some negative connotation, deserved or otherwise.

I have a buddy that I’m always giving a beat down to about using it. And it’s always a perjorative. I wish there was a “good” catch-phrase for those passes.

"Ball control passes." An extension of the running game passes."

Smart passes.

Baker also had 4 TD passes and 4 deep pass completions out of 19 completions. That's not a bad percentage.

Can it not be all of the above? Obviously Baker is proving to be "the guy" for the foreseeable future, but man has the entire team been better since Hue got canned. It's a mixture of both imo. Baker has continued to get better, and Hue getting canned helped that development (as well as the rest of the team).

We're talking about an offshoot of the Nickel & Dime Offense which evolved into the West Coast Offense, credited to Bill Walsh who devised early portions of it while working under Paul Brown. (Parcells popularized the phrase"West Coast Offense" in derision after beating the 49ers, after Bernie Kozar used it to describe the Air Coryell system but was misquoted and applied to Walsh's system.)

So, it's really the "Browns Offense" if you think about it.

I want to say I appreciate how some try to define "the reason" for success but I'd like to remind everyone that the thread is about growth as a team as we watch the organization transform into a consistently winning franchise. You can see it coming together as certain aspects begin to assert themselves (winning, consistency, fewer penalties, and so on) but I caution that it is a process. One that takes time, and the coordinated function of all aspects from GM, to coaches, to players, to consistent execution. Bear in mind these past two wins may be considered wins against mediocre teams, and as we move on to play Houston in Texas, Denver in Denver a mile in the air (even though they're 5-6), and the Panthers at home we likely face far greater challenges against these teams. Since the Browns are in "growth mode" it's conceivable we see regression in the coming weeks but that doesn't mean there isn't or won't be growth. And while Baker is certainly a big part of "the reason", he is certainly not all of it.

Agreed. Houston at home is a tough game for anybody the way they are playing. We are 5-23 lifetime against Denver and at their place a win is a longshot at best for us. Carolina is a good team but at least we have them at home. We are 1-4 lifetime against them. My fellow Browns fans have a right to their opinions. As for me I will keep my optimism tempered and hope for the best.

Sunday against Houston, we have a chance to take another step in our growth as a team. I am anxous to see who will continue to step up.

Wait, what? Ball control passes? An extension of the running game? I thought passing was inherently dangerous, a sure fire way to have turnovers, to blow football games... 3 things can happen and 2 are bad... now it's just an extension of the running game?

Team growth is an ongoing process.

But it started with the hiring of John Dorsey.

Then all the roster changes that came once Dorsey started to build the team.

A young team is starting to come together. Experience together. The experience Baker is gaining from seeing how opposing teams game plan on defense.

Njoku and Callaway along with the rest of the receivers are growing.

Robinson is stepping up at LT.

It is very cool to see it all come together.

But in the end quarterback play has to be there. Poor play at that position, turnovers, etc. a team can not win.

The Bakerman is making it happen.

j/c...

Baker Mayfield Plants His Flag: Week 12 in the NFL

By Albert Breer
November 26, 2018

The sentiment really started circulating through the Browns’ offensive meeting rooms and locker room on Thursday, and it built on Friday, during the short Saturday flight downstate to Cincinnati and into game day. But it’s one thing for guys to quietly talk about their grudges amongst themselves. It’s another to go public with them.

Leave that to Baker Mayfield.

After tearing through the Bengals for 258 yards and four touchdowns on 19 of 26 passing en route to a 35–20 win, the No. 1 overall draft pick was visibly cold toward former Browns coach Hue Jackson, who joined the Cincinnati staff less than two weeks after being ousted in Cleveland. And when he was asked about the post-game exchange afterwards, he made clear that it was no mistake: “I didn’t feel like talking.”

“I don’t know. Left Cleveland, goes down to Cincinnati, I don’t know,” Mayfield explained at his press conference. “It’s just somebody [who] was in our locker room, asking for us to play for him and then goes to a different team we play twice a year. Everyone can have their spin on it, but that’s how I feel.”

Maybe this doesn’t register quite like Mayfield’s flag-planting did two Septembers ago just down the road in Columbus, after his Oklahoma team upended Ohio State at the Horseshoe. But the idea wasn’t far off.

In each case, Mayfield felt disrespected, carried an edge shared by his teammates, exacted his revenge and then made the opponent eat it.

Those in the Browns’ facility over the last few days could see it coming, too. Once that seed was planted—Hue asked us to play for him, then went to a division rival without hesitation, and that’s BS—the quarterback had a little extra for this one, and that quickly became contagious.

“We weren’t losing that game,” said one Browns staffer Sunday night. “No way in hell were we losing that game.”

Mayfield wouldn’t let them. It’s a new day in Cleveland.

So here’s the thing about Mayfield’s swagger—it’s not empty. He’s a football junkie, which is reflected in the time he spends on his game, and in a work ethic that naturally has become a big part of why players, young and old alike, follow him. That, and the fact that he can really play.

That work and ability show up in how Mayfield is improving on an almost daily basis. As much as anything, his first-half flourish in Cincinnati—he was 17 of 22 for 245 yards and three touchdowns as the Browns raced to a 28-0 lead—was a remarkable display of that improvement, with evidence surfacing in subtle but effective ways.

The Browns ran different personnel groupings on the field on just about every snap of their game-opening, 10-play, 78-yard touchdown drive, which gave Mayfield and the coaches a look at how the Bengals would react and adjust. What they found was that Cincinnati was sold out to stop Nick Chubb and the run game, which led to the aerial assault to come.

On Cleveland’s second possession, the coaches empowered Mayfield by going empty backfield straight through. Doing that puts the onus on the quarterback to get his protection calls right—since there’s no last line of defense with a pass-blocking back—and the staff trusted that Mayfield would accomplish that. The benefit is that, with the defense spread out, the quarterback has a clearer view of where rushers are coming from, which helped Mayfield pick the Bengals apart. And the amazing thing is that Mayfield had almost no experience in this area coming into the NFL.

Offensive coordinator Freddie Kitchens and his staff worked to attach run-action to plays out of all those personnel groupings, which helped in making Mayfield comfortable and getting him playing fast—another sign that this is increasingly becoming the rookie’s offense. The approach was effective Sunday, even though the run game (2.4 yards per carry) really wasn’t.

Mayfield has also started to follow a directive to incorporate Chubb into the passing game. The second-round rookie wasn’t considered much of a threat in that area coming out of school (he had nine catches in 28 games over his last two seasons at Georgia), but the coaches liked what they saw from him in practice and believed using him as a pass-catcher would help open up the run game. Chubb had three catches for 44 yards on Sunday, including a spectacular 14-yard touchdown on which the rookie reached around and pinned the ball to the back of Bengals safety Brandon Wilson.

In essence, the recent success is a combination of the staff finding concepts that Mayfield feels good running, and Mayfield improving at a breakneck pace. And in the end, the results looked like this …

Drive 1: 10 plays, 78 yards, touchdown
Drive 2: Four plays, 56 yards, touchdown
Drive 3: 12 plays, 96 yards, touchdown
Drive 4: 11 plays, 59 yards, touchdown

The score was 35–7 in the third quarter before the Browns would punt. And once that finally happened, a Cleveland offense that probably could have piled on the points and yards went into protection mode—Mayfield threw just three passes the rest of the way, completing one, for seven yards.

Here’s one other nugget to take with you: I’m told that last week wasn’t a great week of practice for the Browns offense. In the past, that would’ve been a killer for a team that was searching for confidence and to find its way.

Thanks to Mayfield, it now looks like Cleveland isn’t that kind of team anymore, and the way they stuck it to an old coach of theirs on Sunday only serves as more proof.

Sports Illustrated: MMQB Article

You are just trying to justify your passion for the worst coach in the NFL history.

Coaches Coach teams, and teams are the ones that win or lose games.

News Flash: The Browns have the 9th best run offense and the 23rd best passing offense, so cut the crap about Baker being the major improvement.

The major improvement is not having a complete idiot calling the plays and running the team.

Baker is doing good, no question about it, but don't try and spin the story, and at least show some humility when you are called by the ones who got it right.

Maybe when you get something right that you can regain your bragging rights.


PFFFF, we had to take your crap for 2 years, enough is enough.

The big reasons that this team has grown, in no particular order:

Mayfield: Brings outstanding leadership on and off the field. He's infectious.

Chubb: Quiet leadership. Plays the game like Jim Brown played it. Goes out, does his job, doesn't over celebrate, acts like he's been there before and expects to be there again.

Williams: He Lets it FLY. Teaches the players, then let's them do what they were taught to do.

Kitchens: Comes up with effective ways to use the tools he has on the field.. He finds fun things to do with those tools and they are all responding to him. Baker Trusts him so they all do.

Dorsey: Unless you believe that Haslam chose the players we picked up, then he deserves a LARGE amount of the credit for assembling this team. I can't wait to see what happens next.

We are exactly 5 wins from having a shot at the playoffs (yes, unlikely) and in any year in November, that's exciting..

I agree on Chubb. He's been a rock for two months now .... he's a stud

I'll also add the emergence of Demarious Randall. He brings swag and gives our back end D stability

The shorter the pass the better rate of success. Check the stats. lmao

Let's get something straight. Show me in archives were this passion is you speak of is?

Show me one time where I have said anything other than Hue deserves a chance with a real team. Never did I say Hue was anything. I never called him a good coach or a bad coach. Never.

So prove otherwise.

Check Baker's numbers game by game. Quarterback rating or any numbers for that matter. If you don't see the improvement maybe look again.

I have given the current coaches credit for game plan and adjustments. I like what they are doing. And have stated that. "As well as good game planning and play calling."
=========================================================

"Maybe when you get something right that you can regain your bragging rights."
==========================================

I don't brag. I write what I think.
=============================================


PFFFF, we had to take your crap for 2 years, enough is enough.
=============================================

Do yourself a favor don't read anything I write.
========================================================

I will refrain from personal attacks. I don't post to get into that kind of exchange.

You want to go there go ahead. I get enough feedback from people on this Board in PM's and football talk that seem to like what I have to say.

I don't need a thing from you. You have proven what little you know every time you post.

I'm going way out on a limb here to say that in this case, you are both right... to a degree.. but the bulk of the blame goes on Hue/Haley...

Baker's rating with Hue (and Haley) was 78.9 with Williams (and Kitchens) it's 129.5 ....

So I don't care that the Browns are 23rd in passing, that's yardage which is relatively unimportant.... Baker has been an efficiency machine since Hue left...

It's hard for me to conclude anything but the fact that Hue/Haley were the problem... but that the biggest benefactor of Hue leaving is that Baker is now being properly utilized....

So speaking of team growth... Over the last 3 weeks, since the coaching change, we have scored:

Chiefs - 21
Falcons - 28
Bengals - 35

Texans - 42?

That 42 should be enough. Let's go with that.

Our improved scoring output must be playing hob with the over/under bets. I feel so much better watching the game knowing we have some legitimate chance of some offensive output.

I don't know why you bother to read his dribble. He states crap like Mayfield having a weak arm and being inaccurate as if it is fact, when he is the only person on the planet that thinks that. He is a troll who is a waste of time reading.

J/C .... in the last 3 games, Baker has thrown 9 TD passes, and 1 INT .... while only being sacked twice in those 3 games.

Prior to the change, Baker threw 8 TD and 6 INT. Different opponents, yes, but coaching matters too.

Nick Chubb has 663 yards and 6 TD rushing for the season. 345 yards and 3 of those TDs have come in the last 3 games. He has 9 catches and 2 TD on the season. 7 of those, and both TDs have come in the past 3 games. Coaching matters.

Duke Johnson has 3 TD catches. All of them have come in the past 3 games.

When we look at the execution of the offense .... the way things are moving much more smoothly ..... fewer penalties .... way fewer drops .... it's obvious that coaching matters. Mental mistakes are way down. Coaching matters.

Williams and Kitchens have done a fantastic job with the team. They took a rather ragtag offensive unit, running plays they were ill suited to run ..... and turned them into a much more effective unit. Scoring is up ... and yes, it is against some lesser defenses .... but it is up significantly .... and we really called off the dogs late in the game against the Bengals. I think we could have put 50 on them if we hadn't. I understand why we did what we did, but we absolutely and completely dominated that game.

This was a team that had won what .....(?) 6 or 7 in a row against us?

The defense has suffered injuries, and they are still struggling in some aspects, but Avery and Vallejo have really stepped up big. How many CB have we gone through? Peppers appears to finally have the light coming on.

There is a ton of great stuff going on right now with this team. We still need some pieces .... but man, there is a ton to be excited about right now.

Your right. But he called me out with a load of crap and I could not let it fly.

Had to put this video of this absolute DIME somewhere.

Not necessarily a response to you exclusively, but a general response to a phrase you used.

“dink and dunk crap”

Short, accurate passes that open running space for backs and receivers are a very, very effective tool for ANY offense to be able to use.


Ham...I would like to just bring to your attention DINK n DUNK crap...is the exact game plan that was put in for.... TYRUD TAYLOR. A QB with a pittance of Arm talent that Baker has.

We would have 3rd and 8 and they would dial up 3 yard routes just like the ones that they had dialed up for TT. Meanwhile the difference of the play calling with Kitchens is so so vivid. We actually throw 10-15 yard routes no on down to gain as 3rd and 8!

This possession dink and dunk stuff brings all the D in tighter and tighter also having so many close to the box. There was no Vertical Stretch. And that doesn't have to mean throwing Bombs.

When Baker took over they (Hue/Haley) decided to play with no trust in the rookie QB. They were determined to not let the ROOKIE "LOSE" games instead of letting him loose and "WIN" games.

So I can see your opinion in a well executed West Coast Offense. Its just we have a pretty special QB who can hit accurately routes all over the field and we can spread them out horizontally and vertically creating so much space with this QB and instead we chose (without a better term) to Dink and Dunk it.

As was brought up by a poster here. Since the Change...not of QB but of Offensive Philosophy one geared for the very talented QB of ours. 9 TDs, 1 INT and 2 Sacks...Increase in the production of our rookie RB to a great degree. Throwing 5 TD passes to our RBs in 3 games. Posted or tweeted - 10/10 100% of RED ZONE success in our 3 games under the new PHILOSOPHY.

I cannot believe these MORONS were utilizing the same Game Plans that they had in place from day one as they went ALL IN with TT and to the extent totally IGNORED our Overall #1 pick. So they tried to force a Thoroughbred Race horse to be harnessed and entered in a TROTTER environment pulling back on the reigns preventing him from Running Free and kicking everyones butt!

Ergo dink and dunk as a negative for us.
jmho

Team Growth this week is hard to see but it's there.

The O-line allowing no sacks.

The D-line getting to, and containing (for the most part), a physical, mobile QB.

Not quitting in the second half.

Leadership by the QB when the ball was stripped from Callaway.

I think a loss like this will help the young team learn and grow. And execute better down the road.

They didn't contain him

Not completely, but he wasn't running all over us either.

You can't grow without adversity.

Need to learn to play with the big boys.

Not to say we only beat creampuffs. Some of the opponents we beat are pretty tough.

But sometimes you have to get schooled to know what needs working on.

I'm not gonna say I'm glad we lost today. I'm gonna say I'm glad they got a taste of what they will need to beat when we get to the playoffs.

This year isn't our year for playoffs. But we have a tough schedule, so it will all provide valuable experience for next year.

GC.

Team Laser

Man up dude, you supported Hue, now eat the crow.

The Hue deserves a chance was an aberration, the guy was never a good coach.

And then you come up and criticize Haley.. which clearly knew what he was doing.

Man up and cut the crap. YOU WERE WRONG in many things, so get off the high horse and take a humility bath.

"I don't know why you bother to read his dribble. He states crap like Mayfield having a weak arm and being inaccurate as if it is fact, when he is the only person on the planet that thinks that. He is a troll who is a waste of time reading."^

Is this your second account, or the same old gang up mentality.

You have reading comprehension problems, I never said Mayfield had a weak arm, I say he does not have arm talent, which is a complete different thing.

I don't think Mayfield arm is on the top 10-15 of the NFL, its also clear that he struggles with some throws, which is natural.

The kid is still developing, he's doing a good job with ups and downs, has showed many good things but also many things where he has to work.

And yes Baker Mayfield is inaccurate out of the pocket, I don't think this is even questionable.

I admit the Kid is growing on me, specially after what he did to HUE

j/c - didn't want to start a new thread and my comments fit just fine right here:

This team has shown growth from the beginning of the year...no question about that. I've read comments all over the place where people make comments about what we "need" at this point...but they rarely break it down. I think we need a penetrating DT and two new linebackers...after that a WR and CB...then a DE and maybe/probably an OT...

DT

I like Ogunjobi a lot...remember that he's in just his 2nd year. I like Price, Coley and will probably like Davis as rotational guys...but we need a penetrator inside. All of these guys are young, young young...but other than Ogunjobi, I don't see penetrators. The draft is very deep at DT/DE.

LB

We have ONE good starter (Shobert)...ONE good backup (Vallejo)...and ONE guy who looks like he could be a starter but is most certainly a keeper (Avery)...with two other guys making waaaaaay too much money for what they bring to the table. Give Shobert that penetrating DT and see what happens. Avery may be one of the two LBs I think we need...but we need a stud LB who can rush, cover and stop the run. Draft or FA or both...I don't care.

WR

I am becoming very conflicted here. We have the perfect combo of Landry & Higgins (both young guys) for the underneath, wide, intermediate and chain-moving roles...they simply get open (or Baker-open) and catch the ball. Calloway is showing what Dorsey saw in him...a year out of football and rusty to start...his play yesterday against a tough defense was impressive. He's not likely to be a prototypical #1 stud for awhile - if ever - but I think he's going to be really good. We would be hard-pressed to find a better 4th receiver than Perriman - who is also crazy young.

I am conflicted because I don't want to burn a bunch of high draft picks on a trade for a "#1 WR" when we have four #2/#3 guys already. But...yes...I'd love to see Baker throw to a guy like Hopkins or AJ Green. BUT...I also don't want to just wait on our newly drafted WR in April 2019 to develop into a stud.

CB

I'm less conflicted at CB...but probably because there is a reason why the saying "You can never have enough CBs" exists. Ward is a STUD...Mitchell was very good before he got hurt...Carrie has been just 'ok' and overpaid...Gaines is a good backup. We need another good one here...but I think less -so than the DT and LB listed above.

OT

I think we need help at DE and OT but not like we need at the other spots mentioned thus far. We presently have two new starters at T (both young) and a developmental guy as a backup. I don't know how many T's a team really needs...but...all three of the new guys are new to the scheme they learned in TC and even newer to the scheme we apparently implemented a few weeks ago. It is reasonable to believe that the upward trend will continue.

DE

Look...we have solid rotational guys in Zettel and Smith...we could probably use another one and I have no clue what is the deal with Chad Thomas...maybe he's that other guy. I think the only way we put a 'priority' on DE is if we cut bait with Coley/Davis and plan to move Ogbah inside more-often.

We aren't a playoff team just yet...but we are very close. The growth from the youth on this team is impressive and finally having that FQB is huge. This is going to get interesting.

We were talking yesterday at our get together, and the one big thing that Houston has that we don't, is team speed.

We desperately need speed at DE or DT, OLB, CB, and WR.

IMHO, the OL, while not perfect, does appear to be gelling ..... and Baker is capable of feeling pressure, and moving in and out of the pocket effectively.

I think that we are capable of adding what we need this off-season, and taking the next step.

Agreed. We could never have filled all our holes in one draft and FA period. If we continue to mature and progress from here and with one more good draft and FA period we could contend for a playoff spot in "19.

Great post Willie...I think you nailed it.

This team has shown growth from the beginning of the year...no question about that. I've read comments all over the place where people make comments about what we "need" at this point...but they rarely break it down. I think we need a penetrating DT and two new linebackers...after that a WR and CB...then a DE and maybe/probably an OT...

I totally agree with your opinion of what we need...

I get sooo frustrated with people on here thinking our defense is good... Teams run on us at will and it makes me want to put my fist through the coffee table every Sunday... I think our secondary is going to be fine, especially if Mitchell is who he has been the first few games

We need 3 front 7 players in a bad way...Schobert is the only LB I'd keep and he is limited athletically... I'd spend at least our first two draft picks on the front 7.

Yes we absolutely need a penetrating DT... We are not able to make the opposing RB change his path from the designed play and have you seen us try to defend sweeps/jet sweeps ? My god...

WR is not nearly the priority if our goal is to actually win games soon.... Sure a #1 WR would be great but won't help us win as quickly as front 7 players... My god

Pass rushing DT is the #1 need, IMO. a smart, fast, thumper OLB is #2. For me it's a toss up between CB & #1 WR as #3 need. I might lean toward CB. I want to say we need a #1 WR, but I'm really liking what I'm seeing from Callaway. Perriman and Higgins can fight it out for # 2, I want to see Landry in the slot. But if we found a big,( 6'2"+) strong, fast WR, I wouldn't bitch. OT, sure, maybe, but I'm not complaining about our OL right now. Overall, just keep adding talent. I'm stoked for next year. Hope we get the coach decision right.

I didn't want to start a new thread previously and now I don't want to post in a draft forum...yet. But thought this might be interesting and fits here. I allowed myself to read a 2019 mock draft (Matt Miller) last night for the first time this season. It felt weird not doing that until December.

Anyway...the mock has us picking 11th right behind GB and two spots in front of the Bungles (which will likely change). It went like this:

DL/EDGE, DL, DL/EDGE, DL, CB, DL/EDGE, QB, CB, QB, DL/EDGE, US, QB, Bungles (LB), DL, WR

I think our pick will get further from the start as the season progresses but will say this about that mock.

(4) DL/EDGE guys went before our pick;
(2) DL;
(2) CB;
and (2) QBs and jimmy crack corn about that position.

So...in that mock, the top four edge guys, top two DL and top two CB are gone before our pick...and that mock has us taking OL from Alabama and the Bungles taking LB from LSU. At our presently-mocked pick, we could take the 5th best EDGE, 3rd best DL, 3rd best CB or the #1 OL/LB/WR. Let that sink in for a minute. I also expect that we win enough games to move a few spots back.

So...we have a dilemma folks...and it might get worse as we win and posers like Miami, Cincy, Tampa Bay, Washington move up and only Indy moves back with us. Like most years, the BPA discussion is fraught with 'yeah-buts'...and this year will be no different. Can you justify taking the 5th best EDGE or 3rd best DL or 3rd best CB over the BEST LB or WR or OT? You certainly CAN depending on the talent...but it's likely not going to be easy.

I don't think that our #1 pick in 2019 will garner many desperate suitors...but looking at that mock, I'm much more willing to part with that pick in a trade to upgrade a roster spot than I was a month ago. We are destined to get a complimentary player (meaning not a starter) with our first pick unless our #1 pick comes up with the #1 WR/OT/LB on the board. I also do think that that mock makes our foray into FA even more important.

Something to ponder as we get closer to the end of the season.

I think it is the perfect year for taking BPA (except QB) with whatever pick we end up with.

I’m not ready yet ...

I am soooo looking forward to each and every game the rest of the way ...

U know Willie ... i thought we could be in trouble on sunday ... yet i was still looking forward to the game ....

Game starts and it was like the last 3 years all over again ... we can do nuttin on O and can’t stop them from moving the ball .. YET i couldnt wait for the 2nd half ... i was bummed but not sick to my stomach or dejected ... just bummed YET somehow still excited for the 2nd half ..

i still couldnt wait for the 2nd half .. i wanted to se what adjustments Fred would make and to see how Bake reponded to his abysmal first half ...

COULDNT WAIT even though the first half was hard to watch ...

Once again dawg ... it was DIFFERENT ... and then what was really really different ... both questions were answered with a RESONDING YES ..

That made it GOOD DIFFERENT!!!! ....

I brought that up in another thread where people said that DL was deep and that position would probably be our pick. The question becomes is the 4th to 6th best DL in the draft going to be as good as the 1st ranked player at other positions? It's not going to be as simple as some think.

It's difficult to say who is who in terms of rankings at that mid-level where we'll be picking. Sort of eye of the beholder type thing. Bosa may be the clear #1 player for example, but the third ranked DL could actually turn out to be a top guy, or the guy Dorsey & Coach have their eye on. At this point, I feel very comfortable with Dorsey making the picks. Not that he can't or won't make mistakes, but he really does a deep dive and seems to know what he's doing when evaluating talent. I'm guessing he may go LB, DL, CB with that first round pick. I would think he sees those positions as high value as opposed to say WR or OL based on our needs and considering this draft class. But that is only my guess.

I saw this mock yesterday that I found interesting:

Round 1: Devin White, LB, LSU
Round 2: Collin Johnson, WR, Texas
Round 3: Yodny Cajuste, OT, West Virginia
Round 3 (from New England): Isaiah Buggs, DT, Alabama
Round 4: Joe Gaziano, DE, Northwestern
Round 5 (via Jacksonville): Khalil Hodge, LB, Buffalo
Round 5, Pick 2: Isaiah Prince, OT, Ohio State
Round 5, Pick 3 (via New England): Jalen Hurd, WR, Baylor
Round 6: Tommy Sweeney, TE, Boston College
Round 7 (via Pittsburgh): Derrick Baity, CB, Kentucky

I don't want to turn this into a draft thread, but I found it interesting in both the positions chosen and order they were picked, (not necessarily because of the players picked). Also is the fact that we could be adding 8 players in the first five rounds. Of course there could be trades, etc. but between the draft and free agency we should have a very good influx of talent. Something I think Dorsey excels at, and something that will definitely help team growth.

I'm with Diam in that I don't want to look too far ahead, as I am really enjoying this season. But man, next season, with a year under Baker's belt and the influx of talent, has the possibility of being something special.

What if the BPA is a G, C, SS or FS?

Tying back in the "Team Growth" theme here. Let's get a drink from Diam on the Island and say this:

Corbett becomes a great backup at G/C and maybe even a starter and we keep all current Gs & Cs (Could really happen);

Chad Thomas becomes Ogbah Lite and looks like a decent rotational guy (Who knows if this can really happen);

Callaway keeps improving and Perriman keeps looking like he's looked (Could really happen);

Robinson keeps improving and Harrison gets stronger and coached up (Who knows if this can really happen);

We get rid of Collins and his contract and try to re-structure or punt on Kirksey (Could happen....those are both awful contracts compared to value.)

Let's say Coley and Price become starter-level DTs (That's not happening);

Where are we most at risk? Where do we not even have a promising or existing young guy who might/maybe/could develop? I won't answer because my analysis is biased...however...that is why I've posted what I have posted in this thread.

Those are all good questions/suppositions but one overriding factor is that the free agent signing period begins March 13th at 4:00 P.M.

Regardless of how our players develop and who is retained or lost, a lot of the pre draft answers will be looked at during free agency. Come draft day, the scenarios may be quite different.

Then you trade back a little til where you think the BPA will also fill a role you need.

I agree with Pit, the entire complexion of needs will probably change by the draft. Dorsey seems to have a penchant for filling all the holes in FA, then letting the draft fall where it may. I still think the value pick in the first round will be LB, DL or CB, depending on who on his board is sitting there when we pick. But who knows? If I've learned anything it's that I know nothing about who we'll select in the draft.

No doubt that FA will help shape the draft. What I'm somewhat driving at though is that the team growth - finally - will impact the draft and FA.

There is no reason why Callaway and Perriman cannot continue to improve and grow. Willies showed some flash...Louis has a year off to find his hands. If they continue to improve / develop, the need at WR changes. I think Baker is the kind of QB that makes a WR's life much easier...dare I say he "makes them better".

There is no reason why Corbett cannot develop...there is wonder if Harrison can develop.

We don't have a guy to even develop at LB and if we have a guy to develop along the DL, I don't know who that guy is...maybe Price or Davis.

You always need more/better CBs.

But for the first time in forever, we appear to have a nice foundation that allows other players to grow into their roles and improves our attractive-ness to free agents. I think Dorsey will look to free agency to gain him flexibility in the draft. But we have some glaring needs where we won't have any team growth to help fill the void...and a couple spots where we just might have something to work with.

I get what you're saying. We're almost at a point where we can draft BPA simply to add talent and upgrade the roster. By the end of the season and after the FA period, that may absolutely be the case. Dorsey and to a degree Sashi did a good job helping us catch up to the rest of the league talent-wise. We went from an abysmal roster to a respectable roster in just a few years. Next year we should actually have a very good roster that includes a franchise QB. It's been a long, long time coming. Dorsey must get the HC hire right.

I agree. I didn't want to totally derail the thread topic, but the team growth is different than it's been in awhile and will change how we look-at/approach the off-season.

Early on, Callaway looked to be JAG with a long way to go...he still has a ways to go, but you can easily see why Dorsey took a a shot on him. He has absolutely grown since the beginning of the year.

Perriman and Robinson as young vets have also definitely improved since they've been here. Sometimes a change of scenery gets a guy going...why not here?

Peppers went from looking like a bust (unfair as it was) to looking like a pretty good SS.

I should have mentioned Avery as a LB to develop...he's another excellent pick who will be no worse than a very good situational pass rusher. He's probably being asked to do too much right now...but that will pay dividends later. I notice Vallejo pretty regularly and he looks athletic and aggressive...if not also being asked to do too much right now.

Bake is the straw that stirs the drink now...his growth has been incredible.

Even the kicker has grown.

You didn't derail anything. All your points were right on. And the draft is certainly part of the growth process, particularly when we have a stable of talent to build on.

Callaway's issues, IMO, were experience, focus, and chemistry. He seems to be doing very well on all those fronts. Those bombs he caught Sunday were explosive and so fun to watch. Even with the BS holding call and the strip. There were very clear glimpses of what our future holds.

I'm very impressed with the turnaround of both Perriman & Robinson. I though Perriman would be a complete bust and Robinson on his last stop on his way out the door. It's amazing how they've performed in their new environment. I think that says an awful lot about the locker room, and the character of the players and coaches around them.

I thought all Peppers needed was time, and more talent around him, and that seems to be the case. He's a thumper. Even his returns are looking better.

Avery is flashing, but he's raw, it'll be fun watching him grow the next few years. He's a blast to watch going after the QB.

When Baker had his three INTs against Texas, it was almost a relief...lol. Like waiting for the other shoe to drop. But knowing he would grow from that experience never shook my confidence. Watching his performance in the second half was something special. I get the impression he will not rest until he has the ability to dissect every team in the league, and then surgically carve them up. It's amazing to me to see him perform at such a high level his first year.

lol, The kicker has definitely settled in. I'm not white knuckling it every time he tries an extra point now.

We obviously saw some growth today.

Baker looked really good, threw some amazing passes. Hard to believe he's a rookie with only a partial season under his belt.

Chemistry with the WRs is improving weekly.

We got an important win against a good team playing for their playoff hopes. Good win.

We didn't crumble when things got tough, (turnovers, missed extra point, penalties). Those things could have completely derailed the game in previous seasons.

Took a step back in terms of penalties and tackling.

But, the D stepped up and got stops and closed out the game when it was needed. That is huge.

Garrett seems to be improving every week, becoming crafty in his approach to how he works the tackle.

The O stuck with the run, and it eventually paid off, Chub got a couple very good runs in, and Landry had a beautiful run. Those WR runs really worked well for us today.

There were some play calls I didn't like, but I'm not going to bitch, they have to call what they think is right. What I will say, the play calling has been interesting and innovative, if not always effective. That type of play calling is almost unrecognizable. Good to see us execute as well. Opening with the deep ball early in the first drive, and completing it sends a big message: We came to play and are here to stay.

The league has officially been put on notice. If you play us, you better bring your lunch because it will be an all day affair.

The beaten Browns fan in me was sure we'd lose by one, but that didn't happen and we closed out in superb fashion. Go Browns!

Well, we've taken another step forward this week.

Winning in Mile High and beating the Donks for the first time in 28 years.

Getting a team win.

Leaning on a strong D performance when our QB has a game where he struggles and pulling out the win.

Team accountability.

Overcoming poor refereeing. The bad spot, two uncalled face mask penalties, a ticky-tack unsportsmanlike call. (Though Perriman should've kept his cool and walked away clapping his hands the minute he saw the yellow flag. That would've been a 1st down instead of 3rd & 14. Dumb mistake I'm sure GW will address.)

Because now there is discipline. I'm sure the penalties in general will be a topic of discussion on Monday.

We're also seeing very good communication on the sidelines.

We have our QB elevating the play of others.

The team is playing for each other.

Winning is more important than individual stats.

These are just a few things that show recent team growth. What have you noticed?

last night was a big step IMO ... on the road, didn't play very well on O, but still managed a W

Don't overlook your first sig quote: Dorsey's "Don't pass on real players." There is his focus, his priority, his goal for growing our product. With our improved base and flushed coaches, we can pound more resources into needed player positions with Dorsey birddogging "real" players. I think we can do more with more; some teams waste momentum picks.

That quote says a lot about an ongoing focus for quality roster through the draft and FA IMO.

Sorry, wrong player. It was Callaway that overreacted.

And, because the penalty was after the play, the result of the play was 1st and 10, just from further back.

The penalties were offsetting, they replayed the down. (3rd & 14)

I'd like to see at least another win this season. Two would be nice, but start with the Bengals. Crush them and put them at the bottom of the AFC North for the season.

Everyone on the Browns can get better. It's a young team, with lots of room to grow. The coaching staff hasn't been together all that long and can do the same. Show the world that the Browns are for real. Make the top coaches want this job-- I'm not saying you have to bring in a new guy, just make the job desirable-- make players want to re-sign here, make free agents want to come here.

Keep adding to that pile of real players. There's still plenty of cap space and draft picks available. Let the coaches, Mayfield, and other leaders on the team do their thing and demand improvement and accountability from the rest of the guys.

There are some really good players at important positions on this team on rookie deals. The mindset has to be to improve quickly because this advantage won't last forever. Eventually you have pay guys who perform, but take advantage of it while we can.

I supposed I would say biggest sign of growth against the Bengals came when Landry and others rushed to Baker's aid.

They've clearly developed a tight knit group.

They took care of business in a very business-like fashion most of the day. It was a bigger beatdown than the score indicated.

The blocked punt and the penalties remind us it's still a young team.

They are winning the games they're supposed to win. Next step will be a win over a winning team. Doing it on the road would be icing. Looking forward to the game next week.

The defense is improving weekly.

The o-line has jelled and is performing well both in run blocking and pass protection.

We've stayed relatively healthy.

Everyone (who's serious) is contributing. Big plays are being made on both sides of the ball.

We're seeing the emergence of future stars. Legends in the making.

Having Baker is great. Having a receiving corps, effective TEs, and a running game is amazing. (Chubb, Higgins, Landry, Perriman, Duke, Njoku, and Fells all looked like studs today.) And seeing them all come together at once, like today, is fantastic. Watching guys like Peppers, Ogunjobi, and Avery develop into impact players is so much fun.

Side note: It's tough watching Denzel. I only pray he's going to be all right. While we are definitely better with him, and watching him is amazing, I hope he chooses health over football if it comes to that.

Finally, we swept a division rival, guaranteeing we would not end up in last place, and our final game of the season determines the fate of the division. That's real growth.

Go Bengals.

What did you notice?