With the original thread reaching 10 pages long, this might be a good time to start a continuation of the subject.
Watching our players short press conferences posted on the Browns webpage just after the Vikings game, I noticed a "common comments" by a couple of our players.
You certainly have a right to your opinion. No disrespect. but these types of off-topic remarks can only result in taking this thread on an unnecessary tangent. I think you know that.
Why not start your own "1000 reasons why Baker can't win a championship" thread. If it gets traction so be it. If it does not, oh well.
The following article contains an observation that I was unaware of in real-time. One of the wrinkles that could be helping the defense and the front four particularly is aligning the four DL then putting a linebacker over a guard so the defense appears as if they could rush 5. This forces the OL to account for the fifth player on the D line and get more 1 on 1's for the actual rushers. This increases the opportunity for the D to get pressure with the four DL.
Hope that's clear. Heres the link and the article.
Browns Pincer Attack Claims Second Victim in Twin Cities After an inauspicious first two games, the Cleveland Browns defense under defensive coordinator Joe Woods has dominated against back both the Chicago Bears and Minnesota Vikings. PETE SMITHOCT 3, 2021 The Cleveland Browns pincer based defense carried the team to its second victory in as many weeks, holding a pair of NFC North opponents to 13 points over two games. After they limited the Chicago Bears to a pair of field goals while holding to a historically low 47 total yards, the Minnesota Vikings were only able to score seven at home.
The Browns went from a defense with a significant amount of talent and promise but not much to show for it in their first two games to the most ferocious, dominant defense in the league the past two.
Beyond the fact they are keeping opponents off the scoreboard, they are brutalizing them in the process. They take away the perimeter, eliminate the run and then proceed to pound on the opposing quarterback.
The Browns did not get off to a great start in the twin cities, allowing a 75-yard touchdown drive. Their defense quickly found their footing and did not allow a score the rest of the game. Cousins, who came into the game as one of the most efficient quarterbacks in the NFL came out firing, completing 6 of his first 6 passes for 59 yards and a touchdown. After that, he completed just 14 of his next 32 passes for 144 yards with an interception.
The Browns were able put a significant amount of heat on Cousins, sacking him twice and hitting him a total of ten times over the course of the game. Cousins basically never felt comfortable after the first drive and was forced to make a number of hurried throws throughout the game.
This occurred because the Browns took away the running game and forced the Vikings to be a one-dimensional offense, putting the game in Kirk Cousins' hands. Dalvin Cook had a 13-yard run the first drive of the game, but only had 21 more rushing yards on his other eight carries the rest of the game. Alexander Mattison rushed ten times for just 20 yards.
That was caused in large part because the Browns did such a good job dominating the edges for the second game in a row. Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney have been giving the Browns everything they could possibly want, making it incredibly difficult for opponents to get outside of them, setting up the rest of the unit for success. When the running game can't get outside, it's just about impossible to utilize wide play-action concepts. So both the running game and the passing game have to take place almost exclusively between the tackles.
Because they were able to funnel the offense inside, the Browns were able to shut down the run of both the Vikings and the Bears and keep the quarterback in the pocket for basically the entire game.
Not unlike a python once it has found its prey, the Browns defense seeks to eliminate means of escape, then constricts around the opponent, taking away any space to move, air to breathe, until they are suffocated to death. That's exactly what the Browns did to its most recent two opponents.
Defending the running game with limited places to go is far easier because the Browns can commit numbers to stop them. The last eight quarters, the Browns defense has given up 111 yards on 36 carries for an average of just over 3 yards per carry.
Shutting down the running game while taking away the edges has enabled pass rushers to be focused on a target with little or no room to escape or operate. Since they know where the passer is going to be, they are simply planning on how to get there. Defensive backs know with relative certainty what angle passes will be coming. It's more difficult execute concepts like floods and changes which areas of the field the defense is more concerned in eliminating, which reduces the amount Joe Woods has to worry about stopping with his calls.
When the Browns have limited the quarterback to operate in the pocket and put them in obvious passing situations, Woods been able to make calls that attack the bottleneck.
Blitzes, whether off the edge or up the middle have a clear trajectory. Denzel Ward had half a sack and two quarterback hits against the Vikings a week after safety Ronnie Harrison notched a sack coming off the edge. John Johnson III came with a safety blitz that forced the Vikings to punt. Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is an ever present threat because of his explosiveness.
The sheer amount of speed the Browns have at their disposal behind this defense line looks even faster when they don't have to cover the entire field.
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One of the looks Woods has employed in obvious passing situations this season to generate pressure has had a defensive end lined up alone on one side against the tackle with three on the other, lining up over the center to the tackle, leaving one guard uncovered.
They then line up an inside linebacker over the uncovered guard. Most of the time, they are simply dropping that linebacker into coverage but the positioning still forces the guard he's over to treat him like he's blitzing, allowing every single defensive lineman to get isolated on an offensive lineman, making it four-on-four.
That guard can usually end up helping on the nose, but the other three defensive linemen are coming against a single blocker unless they kept help to try to slow down their edge rushers in the form of a tight end or running back. The running back isn't always helpful since the quarterback is already operating in tight quarters and the running back might exacerbate the problem. Nevertheless, the Browns are create the illusion of sending five while actually still keeping up to seven in coverage.
When the three players in one-on-one matchups include Jadeveon Clowney and Myles Garrett on the same side isolated on a guard and tackle, that's a terrifying situation for the offense. Takkarist McKinley is the player often lined up across from the other tackle, who can bring a speed element as well as converting speed to power.
At the level the Browns defensive line is currently playing, they are going to get to the quarterback. It's simply a matter of how long it will take. This also allows the Browns to specifically target the weakest player on the offensive line and attack them.
The Browns are still lined up to take away the edges and maintain the bottleneck. Justin Fields tried use his mobility to escape but was unable while Cousins tried to get the ball out as quickly as possible. In third-and-long situations, that might not be enough time to make a good read on a pass beyond the sticks, only making it more likely the Browns can get off the field.
These past two games have introduced a very real fear factor into the quarterback's thought process. It's increasingly difficult to simply try to look for holes in the defense when the quarterback is worrying about fumbling or getting hit. The defense was finally able to capitalize on an opportunity created with that quick clock in the form of a Greedy Williams interception, something they hope to increase as the season progresses.
The Browns will go on the road to face the Los Angeles Chargers followed by a game at home against the Arizona Cardinals. Both teams feature athletic passers with a good amount of firepower. They will try to come up with ways to counter the Browns pincer attacking defense, but it's easier said than done with Garrett and Clowney on the edges. The Browns have not only restored the 'D' in Dawg Pound, but this pincer plan of attack has the potential put the clamps on some of the top offenses in the NFL.
Here's another one. I recently put Camryn Justice, New 5 - Cleveland in my favorites. Surprisingly she is able to write a fair amount of content even though they are TV and not print media.
No JOKe: Browns rookie LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah is the real deal as seen on Sunday items.[0].image.alt Photo by: Stacy Bengs/AP Cleveland Browns linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah (28) grabs Minnesota Vikings running back Alexander Mattison (25) by the foot in an attempt to stop the ball during an NFL football game against the Cleveland Browns, Sunday, Oct. 3, 2021 in Minneapolis. Cleveland won 14-7. (AP Photo/Stacy Bengs) By: Camryn JusticePosted at 8:07 PM, Oct 03, 2021 and last updated 8:07 PM, Oct 03, 2021 MINNEAPOLIS — Nominated for the NFL's Rookie of the Week award last week, Browns linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah has already impressed early in his NFL career, and on Sunday -- as the defense shined bright again -- he made it clear that he's the real deal.
When the Browns drafted Greg Newsome II in the first round, it seemed almost inevitable that the rover out of Notre Dame would be off the board before the Browns could grab him. But things fell their way and Owusu-Koramoah, who was a projected first-round pick by most, fell into the second round—and Cleveland scooped him up.
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Owusu-Koramoah's potential heading into the NFL was exciting. His ability to execute hard hits and forceful tackles paired with his speed, agility and athleticism seemed like just what defensive coordinator Joe Woods needed to help build up the defensive scheme that he didn't have the talent to trot on the field last season (or health, for that matter).
After returning from the COVID-19 list the second week of training camp, Owusu-Koramoah showed he hadn't missed a step, making big plays at practice sessions and through the preseason.
But still, it remained to be seen how the versatile defender would perform in regular-season game action. Now, four weeks into the regular season, while it's early, it feels safe to say that Owusu-Koramoah is delivering what the front office and fans had hoped.
Ramping up his impact Last week against the Bears, Owusu-Koramoah got the start at strong-side linebacker and put up four tackles, a half-sack and two passes defended—showing off his skill of changing direction on the fly and making plays on the ball.
"He knows he can be a force rushing the passer. He was there with me, and he made plays in the pass game dropping out in coverage and pushing pressure on the quarterback. I think we all did, and that is how it is supposed to look, especially with the guys we have up front and the guys we brought in," said Browns defensive end Myles Garrett after the win over the Bears.
Linebackers coach Jason Tarver said that in the Week 3 outing, Owusu-Koramoah had such a great game due to making the right calls and starting the plays exactly how they designed them for him.
"What Jeremiah did well was stay in his process and start the game and start the plays correctly, using what we do to start plays, so what I mean is his patience in the beginning of the play and then how he was able to fit and move and he got more in the groove than he has before so that was really cool to see," Tarver said. "When he stays in his process, when we all stay in our process, that's when we can be our best."
Tarver said that by starting correctly, Owusu-Koramoah has been able to be in a spot where he can feel the game out for himself and make those quick decisions on each down, allowing him to showcase his play-making ability while providing impressive coverage against the run and the pass.
That impact was had playing just over 50% of the defensive snaps, meaning as he continues developing his skills and proving his abilities on the field, Owusu-Koramoah's impact may just get even greater as the weeks go on.
"There are multiple packages we can create for him, but there is only so much he can handle because when you get on the field, you have a certain number of reps. If you are giving him a lot of stuff to do, how many times can you rep it for him to be comfortable doing it? That is with our defense in general," said defensive coordinator Joe Woods on Thursday.
With this Sunday's outing against the Vikings, it seems he's well on his way to finding himself even more involved in the game.
Another Sunday showcase Adding to the argument that Owusu-Koramoah's impact isn't just beginner's luck, the linebacker had another big game against the Vikings.
Owusu-Koramoah solidified his ability to be a versatile defender on the first play of the game, holding Vikings star running back Dalvin Cook to a single yard, flying around the edge and wrapping himself around Cook for the tackle.
His impact was felt throughout the game when he was on the field and he had a performance that showcased his closing speed and his aptness for changing direction on a dime while also making seven tackles, which as he's said before, is his favorite thing to do.
Heading into his rookie debut, some critics were skeptical of Owusu-Koramoah's ability to play linebacker due to his 6'2", 215 pound stature. But even before taking the field for an NFL game, Owusu-Koramoah was confident in his ability and explained why his size wasn't going to be an issue.
"It is an advantage in terms of how the league is evolving in terms of a more pass-based league and in terms of probably about 85% nickel and third-down defense. I think it's an advantage because the offense, the way it is running in terms of more spread. I think it's an advantage because of how the league is moving forward and just my skill set in terms of getting to Point A to Point B in terms of slipping blocks and pressing blocks. I think that is something I'll be looking forward to,” Owusu-Koramoah said back in May.
Having a big game against a well-rounded offense like the Vikings that has been firing on all cylinders this season, the game Owusu-Koramoah had Sunday will only add confidence.
Part of a dominating defense Owusu-Koramoah's impact helps the rest of the defense perform.
For the second week in a row, the defense won the game -- this week more so than last, even with the rough opening drive.
In addition to last week’s 26-6 win over the Bears, the Browns have held their opponent to single-digit points in consecutive games for the first time since 1995. They have allowed just 20 total points over the last 10 quarters. The Browns have recorded 14 total sacks this season, second in the NFL as of the 1 p.m. games on Sunday.
The defense clicked -- really clicked -- last week against the Bears, with their nine total sacks, and their dominance continued into Sunday's win over the Vikings.
Garrett reminded fans he's a force while Jadeveon Clowney proved he's still a quarterback nightmare. Grant Delpit and Greedy Williams have made big debuts after returning from injury. The Maliks (Jackson and McDowell) have been commanding on the interior while the secondary is a night and day difference from last season.
Owusu-Korarmoah has been there with them, ready when they send him out on the field, helping the gears run smooth as they chug along through the next 13 regular season games with the hopes of even more postseason match-ups. He's part of what could continue to be an elite defense—and you know what they say about defense.
It wins championships.
We're a long way from that, but four weeks in, it's so far so good.
Camryn Justice is a digital content producer at News 5 Cleveland. Follow her on Twitter @camijustice.
RELATED: BROWNS DEFENSE DOMINATES IN 14-7 WIN OVER VIKINGS
While JOK seems to be thriving in this defense the past two weeks, I'm not ready to credit him for the improvement in the play of our defense.
I give a majority of the credit to DC Joe Woods for changing the type of defense he is calling. Instead of playing a conservative defense, giving up yardage underneath. In the past two games Woods allowed the defense to play an aggressive style, not allowing the QB the luxury to relax in the pocket and wait for a receiver to curl into an opening for a high percentage completion. Watching our CBs play a soft zone was tough to watch.
Mixing his defensive calls keeps the opponent's QB guessing about the coverage or wondering if he will have enough time to complete the pass or if he needs to just get rid of the ball.
JMO, but it sure looks like the Browns defense enjoys playing this aggressive style.
I certainly think that was a huge reason. I also think getting JOK up to speed at the NFL level played a part. Watching both of them play shows the skills needed to run a more aggressive scheme.
I agree. The best place to try it out was in the Chicago game against the rookie QB. After passing that test with flying colors they tried it against a much better offense and it proved to be ready.
Progress is typically not linear. I think that the Chargers will have some counters to what we did last week. And they have a better OL and QB to pull it off.
Happy to see our defense improving, but there are going to be bumps, and the next 2 weeks look very likely to provide some of them. Watch all the Fire Woods people return, only to be sent into hiding again by Halloween night. L
I will be curious to see if some of those earlier issues with the D magically come back vs AZ (mobile/running QB).
It would be really really cool if the Browns D were able to say they've pretty much ironed out all the little kinks (containing a running QB, taking away a strong run game, disrupting a QB that tends to get the ball out fast) before we start against our division.
Sure there will be bumps in the road. I understand what you're saying but let me offer a counterpoint. It was only two weeks ago that we started to see the more aggressive style of D we're seeing now.
So you do have a point that teams have it on film now. The counterpoint is that you don't install an entire system right away. You install it in increments. To attempt to install the entire playbook that quickly would overwhelm your players.
So as they are developing counters we will have a more expanded version of the D. Some of which they have not seen and can not be prepared for.
If we can keep Ekelar and their QB between the tackles, our D will be fine.
As soon as we start giving things up to the outside, we will begin to break down unless the LBers and CBs/Safeties fly up in support.
What is making this all work so well I believe is that the edges are set so hard by Garret and Clowney, then if someone should get to the outside the speed of the folks we have on the backend shuts it down quick. I don't think this defense has much to worry about as long as they play hard and get hats on the ball.
I am thinking that Baker is going to light it up this week. That is what he has always done when faced with adversity I love that about him. Will always worry I know that too................The life of a fan
I will be curious to see if some of those earlier issues with the D magically come back vs AZ (mobile/running QB).
It would be really really cool if the Browns D were able to say they've pretty much ironed out all the little kinks (containing a running QB, taking away a strong run game, disrupting a QB that tends to get the ball out fast) before we start against our division.
This defense was built for a running QB. Speed, Speed, and more speed.
The Ravens are going to get handed their asses this year. We have been angling towards dealing with their QB, will get it done if we don't do anything else.
The Ravens at this juncture are an afterthought for me. I got my sights set a lot higher then them.
If I am right year one of the next great NFL dynasty begins next February.
The pieces are looking like they are coming together and ahead of schedule too... Thanks Mac
On 6-18-2021 an article was posted Woods was asked about all the new faces on the defensive side and said Woods commented that as long as the coaching staff does its job, he is confident everything will work out...this according to a team-provided transcript:
Quote:
“It is my job to go in there and our job as coaches to teach these guys the scheme, the techniques that we are using and to rep it. That is what the offseason is for and that is what training camp is for.."
During the first two games, it looked as if Woods and his coaching staff clearly missed their goal of teaching the more aggressive defensive scheme that Woods referred to during the off-season (June).
Personally, I prefer the style of defense being used during the past two games and if we ask this group of talented players, they would also prefer the more aggressive scheme.
Jeremiah is so fun to watch play football. He made some plays against the Vikings that made me jump up of the chair.
We all know how godd Myles is. Clowney has been outstanding as well. He has great lateral pursuit and he never stops.
But there is no doubt in my that the play of Malik McDowell has been huge.
This man pushes the pocket. He is drawing double teams as well. If you concentrate on just the LOS and the snap. You can not miss McDowell. His guy goes backwards.
For such a big man. He is quick and powerful. To think that he was out of football for four years. And now is a starting DT on the Browns. That is something.
Having Malik Jackson next to him is a big help. MJ is veteran guy who embraces the mentor role. He is helping to form MM.
As the season wears on MM will be drawing attention.
Going into the season I was optimistic about the defense.
However, you don't know till you see the product on the field.
What I am seeing now is outstanding.
JOK's role will continue to grow as he learns to play inside the scheme. It is about learning all the different looks he will see from all the offenses. By the time the season is near the end. He will be something to see. By mid season next year. He will be a star in the league.
We have some young defensive stars. We have good solid veterans mixed in.
Like in basketball defense is a matter of consistent effort. Offenses can have ups and downs like a shooter going hot and cold. A defense like ours can win games on their own. They just proved that.
This week will be a new chapter. Herbert is showing he is for real. It will take a big effort to win this game on the road.
McDowell who I do watch has been outstanding I believe he is the best D tackle in the league this side of the Mississippi.
He is impossible for one blocker to handle and he draws attention away from Garret and Clowney.
It's sort of funny really because if you watch the 1st snap of the game you will see teams try to handle him with one blocker by the third snap their are 2 guys on him the rest of the game. He is very disruptive and forces the ball out of the QB's hand before he wants to let it go.
The biggest thing the Browns D Line is doing is they are disrupting the timing of the offenses we are playing.
Everything for all offenses is execution and that execution is based on time, shorten the time a QB has to get rid of the ball and you are disrupting the offenses ability to execute. You got them you are now dictating what they can and cannot do.
With the Browns D Line being so disruptive and tying up the O line with the pressure they are generating it also disrupts the O Lines ability to get out and block our linebackers and safeties, in the running game and that of course allows the LBers and safeties to come in and clean up the running game.
It all really does start up front on both sides of the ball as long as we win those battles we will continue to win football games.
Sure teams see film on how we are running our scheme, but this is about trench warfare and we are manhandling teams up front. From there everything just falls into place.
On 6-18-2021 an article was posted Woods was asked about all the new faces on the defensive side and said Woods commented that as long as the coaching staff does its job, he is confident everything will work out...this according to a team-provided transcript:
Quote:
“It is my job to go in there and our job as coaches to teach these guys the scheme, the techniques that we are using and to rep it. That is what the offseason is for and that is what training camp is for.."
During the first two games, it looked as if Woods and his coaching staff clearly missed their goal of teaching the more aggressive defensive scheme that Woods referred to during the off-season (June).
Personally, I prefer the style of defense being used during the past two games and if we ask this group of talented players, they would also prefer the more aggressive scheme.
They were still missing JOK and Delpit, and they offer the speed.
I also think the D we played against KC was the plan....to keep it in front of them.
All teams present different challenges, thus you have to adjust the way you play. The chargers have a good quick pass offense. We may not see all that much blitzing on Sunday and see guys camping out in the throwing lanes.
Mostly it is all about his play on the field. However, when he was first drafted by the team he was interviewed by Nate Zegura. Nate is an excellent interviewer. He has great rapport with the players and coaches. He is knowledgeable about the game and has a manner to get them relaxed while in a one on one interview.
Nate came away from that interview really impressed. He said that in his eight years of covering the team. Jeremiah was the most impressive rookie he has covered from the standpoint of maturity.
JOK in simple terms has his head screwed on right. He has a great mental approach to go along with his outstanding football skills.
Having Garrett and a healthy Clowney on both ends is an obvious competitive advantage. One that, if both are playing reasonably well, offensive coordinators are probably only going to be able to limit the damage they do. But add McDowell into the equation, and that propels our defensive line into a legit, official embarrassment of riches. You have 3 guys that require double-teams and/or chips. That is pure insanity.
and we still have another Malik and Takk, both of whom have been showcasing a motor, especially Takk.
There has been more than one instance where I've watched Takk and mistaken the body moving for Clowney until I noticed the number on the jersey. They are both just powerful missiles out there.
On 6-18-2021 an article was posted Woods was asked about all the new faces on the defensive side and said Woods commented that as long as the coaching staff does its job, he is confident everything will work out...this according to a team-provided transcript:
Quote:
“It is my job to go in there and our job as coaches to teach these guys the scheme, the techniques that we are using and to rep it. That is what the offseason is for and that is what training camp is for.."
During the first two games, it looked as if Woods and his coaching staff clearly missed their goal of teaching the more aggressive defensive scheme that Woods referred to during the off-season (June).
Personally, I prefer the style of defense being used during the past two games and if we ask this group of talented players, they would also prefer the more aggressive scheme.
They were still missing JOK and Delpit, and they offer the speed.
I also think the D we played against KC was the plan....to keep it in front of them.
All teams present different challenges, thus you have to adjust the way you play. The chargers have a good quick pass offense. We may not see all that much blitzing on Sunday and see guys camping out in the throwing lanes.
IMO this is 100% correct. There's a difference in teaching the players a defensive scheme and having the players available to run that scheme. And scheming depending on your opponent makes perfect sense.
Offenses must try to wear down the DL. They can't plan many deep route plays. They must scheme quick play-action plays. Once the Browns defense gets comfortable and the offense gets more consistent, they can play tight and defend 20 yards off the line of scrimmage.
To be fair - we stopped the Chargers a bunch of times on 3rd down only for them on make it on 4th down. 3 for 3. We have a lot of injuries and we were playing a very good team .... With that said, there are still some unsettling things witnessed today. Not the least were the blown coverages that resulted in TDs.
we gotta get healthy. we're injured on the front and back end. JOK is balling, but he is young, takitaki and wilson seem lost in the sauce no matter who the DC is.
To be fair - we stopped the Chargers a bunch of times on 3rd down only for them on make it on 4th down. 3 for 3. We have a lot of injuries and we were playing a very good team .... With that said, there are still some unsettling things witnessed today. Not the least were the blown coverages that resulted in TDs.
This sorta goes back to the beginning of the season and the soft coverages we saw.
I think Woods was trying to get these young guys to understand how important it is to maintain coverages on the back end.
When tasked with not letting anyone get behind him Delpit on 2 occasions let the receiver get behind him and we saw the results. Not anything that can't and won't get fixed but clearly a rookie mistake. When the gloves were removed and these guys were left to use their instincts they failed to understand how important it is they fulfill their primary assignment.
we got two guys in delpit and Green with very little experience playing. i thought green had a good game. and you're right, the blown coverages by delpit is just inexperience.
we just gotta get healthy, and hope we aren't playing vs. the refs every week.
I thought Green was outstanding and really held his own against Williams several times and Williams towered over him and he still held up.
We may have lost but we also had a ton of positives and we just couldn't overcome the poor officiating. I plan to write the NFL with my complaints. It won't do any good but this sort of thing can't go unchallenged.
There were several no calls on holding Garret, but the holding calls were awful in fact in one of the plays they called holding on Tretter and the defensive man had his hand around Tretter's throut. We all saw the shirt pull and PI call that was blown.
I was actually shocked they called face mask on the Hunt run at that point in the game I was sure that the officials were going to do anything they had to to insure the Browns didn't win..................
Agreed. If the Browns had got the calls like the Chargers did, we would have won by 14. A correctly called/officiated game and we win by 3 or 7. . . . how that isn't part of the issue IDK.
Agreed. If the Browns had got the calls like the Chargers did, we would have won by 14. A correctly called/officiated game and we win by 3 or 7. . . . how that isn't part of the issue IDK.
I disagree with the premise of your post. I'd say, if the Browns didn't gift the Chargers 2 TDs on totally blown coverage assignments, we probably would've won by a score or two. Those blown calls were pretty bad, and they seemed to come up in crucial times, but this loss is on the D, IMO.
If your defense gives up 47, despite the opponent missing 2 XP and a "gimme" FG try, and despite your offense not giving the opponent short fields with turnovers, then most people would say that the defense is to blame.
Does anyone think that the Chargers would have blamed their offense if we had somehow managed to hit a TD on the final play of the game, to win the game?
It wasn't THE problem...but is most certainly was A problem.
You are correct. There is almost always more than one problem. Is it possible to overcome bad officiating? Yes it is. But in a league with all of the instant replay and all that we have, you shouldn't have to. It's always possible to point out mistakes that we made or great plays they made which, had they gone the other way, would have overcome bad officiating.. but teams/players are going to make mistakes and should be responsible for overcoming their own mistakes. For the most part, we did overcome our own mistakes and the Chargers overcame a few of their own, but blowing basic calls that change the entire trajectory of the game is inexcusable.
The offense puts up 42 points rolling up 531 yds...
But the defensive unit collapsed, giving up 47 points..26 points (4 tds) in the 4th qtr.
Excuses..yea, we can cry about all the excuses Browns fans come up with, but the facts remain..the Browns defense couldn't stop the Chargers when it counted.
I think it's time for GM Berry and HC Stefanski to step in and help to figure out how to correct or at least improve upon "the performance of the defense... especially in the defenses 4th qtr performance.
Ownership, management, coaching staff and the players need to to be concerned. Now is the time to sound the alarm...
With all of the injuries on the defense yesterday, by the time we got to the fourth quarter, other than some kind of voodoo magic Berry or Ski couldn't have helped much.
The offense puts up 42 points rolling up 531 yds...
But the defensive unit collapsed, giving up 47 points..26 points (4 tds) in the 4th qtr.
Excuses..yea, we can cry about all the excuses Browns fans come up with, but the facts remain..the Browns defense couldn't stop the Chargers when it counted.
I think it's time for GM Berry and HC Stefanski to step in and help to figure out how to correct or at least improve upon "the performance of the defense... especially in the defenses 4th qtr performance.
Ownership, management, coaching staff and the players need to to be concerned. Now is the time to sound the alarm...
Made me spit out my coffee.....................
Horse manure comes to mind.................
Biggest steaming pile of non sense I have read today, who you taking notes from TL or Riz or gee wiz ?
Making more excuses will not help the performance of this defense.
There are 28 defensive players listed on the defensive unit and each coach has a responsibility to coach up their players to make sure they are ready if needed.
To make the "next man up" philosophy work, each coach has to be sure their backups are ready.
Both Stefanski and Berry need to become more involved on the defensive side, doing all they can to support Woods..whether it's Stefanski helping to scheme or Berry searching for players to sign or trade for to help improve the defensive performance.
The excuse "there is nothing anyone can do"..that crap excuse is for losers.
It wasn't THE problem...but is most certainly was A problem.
You are correct. There is almost always more than one problem. Is it possible to overcome bad officiating? Yes it is. But in a league with all of the instant replay and all that we have, you shouldn't have to. It's always possible to point out mistakes that we made or great plays they made which, had they gone the other way, would have overcome bad officiating.. but teams/players are going to make mistakes and should be responsible for overcoming their own mistakes. For the most part, we did overcome our own mistakes and the Chargers overcame a few of their own, but blowing basic calls that change the entire trajectory of the game is inexcusable.
Poor officiating is one thing...missing a call is another thing...BUT
Refusing to see/call the blatant holding by whomever "blocks" Garrett is unbelievable and in yesterdays game...there were TWO critical penalties called against us where the other team was the one committing a penalty!
It's fashionable to say "the refs didn't lose us the game" and fans of every team think that their team gets slighted at times...BUT...yesterday...the refs saw TWO penalties being committed...I mean they actually SAW it...and they called the penalty against the wrong team.
That's a completely different level than simply complaining/whining about the refs.
With all of the injuries on the defense yesterday, by the time we got to the fourth quarter, other than some kind of voodoo magic Berry or Ski couldn't have helped much.
We can agree to disagree. These guys are in the NFL and should be expected to play, nobody was asking them to go into LA and beat the Chargers from the start or have an 11 win season, just put up some token resistance and slow the bleeding.
In the 4th quarter, on 4 LA possessions, we gave up 4 TDs, 241 yards of offense, in 6:46 TOP....
granted, the offense had two 3 and outs which would have helped if we had some ball control there.. but still, our offense scored 14 points in the 4th quarter and lost by 12...
With all of the injuries on the defense yesterday, by the time we got to the fourth quarter, other than some kind of voodoo magic Berry or Ski couldn't have helped much.
We can agree to disagree. These guys are in the NFL and should be expected to play, nobody was asking them to go into LA and beat the Chargers from the start or have an 11 win season, just put up some token resistance and slow the bleeding.
In the 4th quarter, on 4 LA possessions, we gave up 4 TDs, 241 yards of offense, in 6:46 TOP....
granted, the offense had two 3 and outs which would have helped if we had some ball control there.. but still, our offense scored 14 points in the 4th quarter and lost by 12...
Multiple HORRIBLY blown coverages. Inexcusably bad. There shouldn't ever be a situation where you allow Mike Williams free run behind you, yet it happened more than once. You either have to be inept or be doing it by design for that to occur.
Being without 3 of our Top 4 CB's once Greedy got hurt surely didn't help, nor did being without Clowney. Say what you want, but he's been a major factor for this defense.
Nobody expects back-ups to be as good as the starters.. but it shouldn't be like falling off a cliff either..
Blame the coaches for lack of preparation... you don't let a WR run alone 25 yards behind your defense, that's not a talent problem, that's a coaching problem. If you are playing with lesser talent and trying to protect a lead then the #1 rule is keep everything in front of you, make tackles, force them to take the longer road to the end zone, hope they make a mistake or at the very least, eat up a bunch of clock.. Football 101.
Herbert is good, the Chargers are good.. but this is a team that came in averaging 23.75 ppg and hadn't scored more than 14 points in any one quarter all year... they scored more than their total ppg in the 4th quarter alone against us... that's not just because we had some back-ups in the game. You almost have to try to be that bad.
I don't understand... are you saying that they were coached to let a WR run free behind them, or that they have to specifically be coached to not let a WR run free behind them?
Regular busted coverage and poor communication still prevalent in game 5 is alarming.
Not replying to anyone specific...
I touched on the "next man up" philosophy the Browns claim they believe in saying the following from my above post...
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Making more excuses will not help the performance of this defense.
There are 28 defensive players listed on the defensive unit and each coach has a responsibility to coach up their players to make sure they are ready if needed.
To make the "next man up" philosophy work, each coach has to be sure their backups are ready.
As Willie said, 5 games into the season and we still have busted coverages and poor communications continuing to happen.
Excuse makers throw up their arms say "oh well"...
I say, there are individual coaches and a Defensive Co-odinator and a Head Coach who should be held responsible for making sure the team is "WELL COACHED".
I don't understand... are you saying that they were coached to let a WR run free behind them, or that they have to specifically be coached to not let a WR run free behind them?
Neither, I'm saying that whatever defense was called for those plays, they weren't coached up enough to know what their assignment was and somebody botched it. Some of that is on the players, some of it has to be on the coaches.
Somebody was supposed to go with him, odds are 4 or 5 of them were where they were supposed to be, 1 player wasn't. That's all it takes.
It's the Belichick mantra, "Do Your Job"... Somebody didn't know what "their job" was... and it made everybody look stupid and helped cost us a game. Just like a backup QB has to have the tenacity to prepare every week like they are going to play, so does a back-up CB...
It wasn't THE problem...but is most certainly was A problem.
I never said it wasn't.
My comment was based on a poster blaming the officiation as the primary reason we lost.
It wasn't. Take away the 2 quick strike, walk in TDs we gave up and it is a totally different outcome. Even if they ended up scoring, how much extra time would have been erased from the clock? Now the final 5-6-7 minutes of the game is erased.
Some of believe it was more about a breakdown of communication on the field than anything else.
Don't doubt that at all..
Personnel and package comes in from the sidelines based on down and distance, game situation.
Then the offense comes to the LOS and the defense adjusts based on their formation. Those adjustments need to be conveyed and understood.
then the play starts and 4 or 5 guys come off the LOS into their routes then it becomes about split second reads as to who has what responsibility. And those routes are specifically designed to create confusion and/or force DBs to make choices.. I get all that.
And it all has to work. So yes, it is understandable that a back-up who doesn't get the reps isn't going to be as good at it as the starter.. but somewhere between the coaching and the player decisions, there was a breakdown... twice.
You seem to be saying that when you're down to your fourth of fifth CB and a S who has only had three starts, that somehow the coaching can coach up players with huge limitations. You can only do so much with limited talent and experience.
I think you're more caught up with a concept than a reality.
You seem to be saying that when you're down to your fourth of fifth CB and a S who has only had three starts, that somehow the coaching can coach up players with huge limitations. You can only do so much with limited talent and experience.
I think you're more caught up with a concept than a reality.
No, what I'm saying is that if you are trailing Mike Williams by 2 steps or if he outbattles you for the ball or beats you with a great move.. that's probably because you lack the talent and speed to be a great DB in the NFL and probably deserve to be 2nd or 3rd string.....
If you are standing 15-25 yards away watching him fair catch a TD pass, that's because you made a huge mental error. And I don't care if you are the best CB in the league or down on the depth chart, I have very little sympathy for huge mental errors because that speaks to coaching and preparation.
You seem to be saying that when you're down to your fourth of fifth CB and a S who has only had three starts, that somehow the coaching can coach up players with huge limitations. You can only do so much with limited talent and experience.
I think you're more caught up with a concept than a reality.
No, what I'm saying is that if you are trailing Mike Williams by 2 steps or if he outbattles you for the ball or beats you with a great move.. that's probably because you lack the talent and speed to be a great DB in the NFL and probably deserve to be 2nd or 3rd string.....
If you are standing 15-25 yards away watching him fair catch a TD pass, that's because you made a huge mental error. And I don't care if you are the best CB in the league or down on the depth chart, I have very little sympathy for huge mental errors because that speaks to coaching and preparation.
Thank you! That is the entire point that I have been making...or trying to make.
This poor communication has been evident all year...except when we smoked the Bears.
We should not still have these communication/assignment issues in the 5th game of the season. Period.
That's totally fair WSU. I'd like to know if the defensive calls were getting in late on those plays. I heard someone mention that the corners and safeties were still talking to each other when the ball was snapped on one of those blown plays, though I haven't personally seen it.
So you think coaching causes a player to make a mental error? Really? Sometimes it's hard to believe that posters put such things on a message board.
You coach the players you have to play. Claiming that coaches can get into their minds and stop them from making mistakes is just nonsense. You're pulling players off the bench and they haven't really had a lot of experience playing in a game within this system. They're going to make mental errors. Practice and learning a play book is no comparison to an actual NFL game.
To pretend this doesn't happen elsewhere or that there was some magic coach this didn't happen to is fools gold.
So you think coaching causes a player to make a mental error? Really? Sometimes it's hard to believe that posters put such things on a message board.
Yes. Unapologetically yes. Or better put, "lack of coaching" causes players to make mental errors. For the record I also included "preparation" in there, which is on the part of the player to receive, understand, and execute the coaching.... so it could be all or part on the coach and the player... and I see I must be making headway in the argument as you have started to resort to snide sarcastic insults. Score one for me.
Bill Belichick has essentially proven that this is true. He had 20 years of success in New England for two primary reasons.. 1. Tom Brady... 2. Because he got more out of average talent than any other coach in history and he did it by making sure they were prepared and didn't make mental mistakes. That's what his whole mantra of "Just do your job" is about. Even if you aren't the most skilled player or the greatest athlete, if you are always in position to make the play you are supposed to make.. you will win more times than not.
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You coach the players you have to play. Claiming that coaches can get into their minds and stop them from making mistakes is just nonsense. You're pulling players off the bench and they haven't really had a lot of experience playing in a game within this system. They're going to make mental errors. Practice and learning a play book is no comparison to an actual NFL game.
To pretend this doesn't happen elsewhere or that there was some magic coach this didn't happen to is fools gold.
Other teams have injuries, they substitute, they have lesser talent.. how often do you see a guy in the NFL 25 yards behind the nearest defender with nobody even chasing him? How often do you see it twice in the same game... to the same receiver?
Maybe you think I'm implying that people need to be fired or cut.. I'm just implying that if you want to be a legit contender in the NFL, these things can't happen.. with your starters or your back-ups.
So you think coaching causes a player to make a mental error? Really? Sometimes it's hard to believe that posters put such things on a message board.
You coach the players you have to play. Claiming that coaches can get into their minds and stop them from making mistakes is just nonsense. You're pulling players off the bench and they haven't really had a lot of experience playing in a game within this system. They're going to make mental errors. Practice and learning a play book is no comparison to an actual NFL game.
To pretend this doesn't happen elsewhere or that there was some magic coach this didn't happen to is fools gold.
I don't think you are really wrong there...mostly. I also think everyone that is arguing "against" you completely understands your point there.
But this miscommunication has been going on all year long...whether the starters or backups or a combination are in the game.
We signed the two great "communicators" in A Walker and JJ3 in the off-season...yet we still run around like Sendejo is still back there.
Maybe we have a defense full of dunces who can't follow instruction? But I doubt that. These guys aren't in high school here.
There is one other component to consider. Even if you disagree.
I just watched the past two games where our D gave up 6 and 7 points respectively.
So I'm not quite sure where you get "this miscommunication has been going on all year long".
We had a complete CB tandem of back-ups in that fourth quarter.
Had I felt you were correct in saying "this miscommunication has been going on all year long", then I would say it's systemic. But after the defensive performances in both the Bears game, and even more convincing, the Vikings game, we certainly disagree.
Belichick coached the Patriots for 21 seasons. Nobody else in the NFL has the longevity or experience with one single team in NFL history. If you think that's somehow a fair comparison to a HC one third of the way through his second season I would say you are mistaken. You haven't scored anything.
Delpit was making his third NFL start. People have always called what you saw as rookie mistakes..... until now.
I just watched the past two games where our D gave up 6 and 7 points respectively.
So I'm not quite sure where you get "this miscommunication has been going on all year long".
We had a complete CB tandem of back-ups in that fourth quarter.
Had I felt you were correct in saying "this miscommunication has been going on all year long", then I would say it's systemic. But after the defensive performances in both the Bears game, and even more convincing, the Vikings game, we certainly disagree.
No one is saying there is miscommunication on every play.
In the 7 point game you mentioned above, the drive to give up the 7 had numerous miscommunications in it...including the TD throw. They got it together after that...kudos to them.
There were two giant miscues against the Chargers that led to TDs. We lost that game by 5 pts.
We have guys running wide open in the middle and back of the defense...especially so on 3rd and 4th down it seems.
Can you site any NFL games where there is never a single miscommunication?
I mean if you only gave up one TD in one game and six points in yet another game, I would certainly love to see defenses who do better and have less miscommunications.
In short, our defense played two great games in a row until our secondary was decimated with injuries. I see a direct correlation there.
That's totally fair WSU. I'd like to know if the defensive calls were getting in late on those plays. I heard someone mention that the corners and safeties were still talking to each other when the ball was snapped on one of those blown plays, though I haven't personally seen it.
This is something the Chargers have been doing all this year, if not longer. I have seen it on pregame shows a few times. They look like they are getting situated for the next play, not in a hurry, then hurry up and snap the ball. Numerous times they catch the D talking to each other, and sometimes not even looking at the offense.
If the network analysts know this, and have the tape, then so should our staff. Getting snookered by a technique a team is known to be using is not acceptable.
Here are the two plays that resulted in wide open touchdowns for the Chargers from the Jake Burns article...
The second-quarter touchdown was clear quarters look where Delpit locks in on the sail route from No. 2.
Note too where Delpit's eyes are when he hits the breaking point of the route. Green is expecting that inside help/bracket that never arrives. When you watch the clips you will see the secondary scrambling to get on the same page.
On the final long touchdown catch, it again comes from quarters. In this look, it feels like Harrison's eyes are wrong.
The backside cornerback handles the 1-on-1 side and covers the dig while Harrison should be seeking out deep coverage opportunities. He is normally eyeing No. 3 in the formation who stays in to block, so this is likely what causes him to misread the situation and get caught chasing.
Overall, the bust plays lead to 20 points, and those plays matter so much against good offenses. You have to make things as tough as possible in order to have even a chance. The Browns set those historic marks losing a game where they scored 40+ points and didn't turn the ball over due to these big plays. We know now John Johnson III is the new "green dot" communicator on defense and this could (major could) have led to some issues with the change. It is so uncharacteristic of Wood's defense to make this many mental mistakes with communication. Could the Chargers' tempo have also been a big part of the problem, sure. This is something they have to rectify and we will monitor how they do so over the coming week with another tough offense coming to Cleveland this weekend.
Not having Ward & Newsome, and then not having Greedy, while having a newer Delpit in there, I'm sure, led to some of the issues.
I also have to guess that, following on the heels of two amazing performances, Woods tried to add some new wrinkles for this game and it is part of what didn't quite go so smoothly.
Adding to your post, simply think what talent we have seen so far at the corners AJ Green, Greedy, Hill, Ward, and Newsome. Once those youngsters get the experience, yep, the better that secondary becomes.
Can you site any NFL games where there is never a single miscommunication?
I never said such a thing exists...nor did I say I expect us to be perfect in communications.
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I mean if you only gave up one TD in one game and six points in yet another game, I would certainly love to see defenses who do better and have less miscommunications.
And in the very next game, poor communication let the other guys' best and premier WR run downfield with no one within 10 yards of him...twice...for TDs. Oh...and I don't care about the shortcomings of other teams' defenses.
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In short, our defense played two great games in a row until our secondary was decimated with injuries. I see a direct correlation there.
You are arguing - yet again - a point that no one has disputed OR brought up. Getting beat because you are injured or simply not as good is very different than getting beat because you don't know where to be.
So you have made the determination that our #4 and #5 CB's not having good communications on the field is something that should not have been expected?
See, that's where my issue is. These guys have never been starters and some have very little experience. But somehow they're suddenly expected to communicate and work as a unit. That's very unrealistic expectations.
Nobody should realistically be saying that since all of our starters did well, the #4 and #5 guys at the position should also do well. Nobody should realistically expect communication between guys who have never actually started and played together as a unit to be on par with starters.
If you don't care about that situation or take it into consideration, I would have to say that's on you.
Not for nothing, but the tandem on the first Williams TD was AJ Green and Delpit. Now, Delpit is a sorta rookie, but the dude has been getting his PT since like week 2. Also, just to keep us on the same page, we're not talking minor miscommunication here.... we're talking letting their main WR threat trot totally uncovered down the field.
The tandem on the second Williams TD was Troy Hill and Johnson (I just rewatched a highlight clip and this seems to be the offending defenders... but the cutup isn't the greatest for looking at who was covering him on that play). Neither rookies nor are the buried on the depth chart.
Belichick coached the Patriots for 21 seasons. Nobody else in the NFL has the longevity or experience with one single team in NFL history. If you think that's somehow a fair comparison to a HC one third of the way through his second season I would say you are mistaken. You haven't scored anything.
Delpit was making his third NFL start. People have always called what you saw as rookie mistakes..... until now.
Are you related to any of our safeties or maybe the coaches? Because you are taking this criticism very personally and making a lot of excuses.
Belichick built his reputation and his winning percentage by having very disciplined players who know their role and who do their role.. to the point where it became kind of plug-and-play with new players coming in either out of school or via free agency and just fitting in. It is something that is constantly stressed and the players get it, some of the players are on record as not even liking it.. but it works.
If Delpit stops making those mistakes, then I will be inclined to think that maybe we are appropriately stressing it too...
I don't care if it's a rookie mistake, or a new to the system mistake, or my wife just had a baby mistake, or I was looking at the hot cheerleader mistake, or a I didn't hear the play mistake... it's a mistake.
As for him being a rookie.. well he played safety in 40 games for LSU so I'm going to assume that he's familiar with a game plan, a play call, adjustments, on-field communication, and maintaining his responsibility against offenses like Alabama, Florida, Ohio State, etc.... what he's doing now might be a little more complex, but none of this is new to him.
All college players who make it to the NFL played in college. You seem to be pretending that is the same as being in the NFL. It isn't. It also seems you believe that even players who were coached well do not make mistakes. News flash, they do. You have named one HC, probably the best HC to ever coach in the NFL to attempt to make a point. Few if any NFL HC's could live up to the example you are using.
I'm not taking it any more personal than you are. You're taking the greatest HC in the NFL and trying to use it as an example of how a HC in his second season should have his team prepared. If anything it's you who seem to have an emotional, rather than rational view of the situation.
Did one of these coaches diss your sister in high school?
84 points given in in 2 games. The defense, for the 2nd consecutive year, cannot stop anyone on 3rd and 4th downs. Nobody on here can tell me they feel comfortable with the Defense getting a stop when the opposing Offense has a 3rd and 5, 10 or 21.
well, when they are calling plays like this a penalty and the 40 other fantom penalties on the defense...
what can we expect?
Honestly, this play was ticee-tacee and I wonder if the NFL and these officials might have decided to call a close game to send a message to the Browns.
They aren't mutually exclusive and one doesn't mitigate the other. The refs sucked, and absolutely put points on the board for them that should have been stopped, but the defense sucked, too and should have just stopped them again. We don't have to be reductionist and try to blame it on just one thing, because it's almost never the case.
The other pass play where 43 Johnson almost makes the INT and then they called a PI again on Ward on a crucial play that would have ended the drive instead Zona went on to score a TD hmmm both TDs on PI that the refs called which weren't close to being an PI GAME CHANGER...6-0 instead of 20 to zero.
calling it close...my main objection is not calling it THE SAME as our WRs get mugged and theirs are not even touched and they get the PI call. its seems at the end of the game when the lead is almost impossible to come back we get the token calls to make it look even.
I hate losing but despise losing because of ref calls at what point do our fans start throwing objects again at the refs. We still are paying for that game!
The Browns defense needs to come up 'big' tonight, stopping the Broncos offense and hopefully creating some turnovers.
If the Browns are going to have any chance of making the playoffs, the Browns defense needs to play their best football. The Joe Woods defense can not afford any blown coverages in the secondary.
If Joe Woods defense doesn't play well in this game tonight, Woods future with the Browns might be questionable. The Browns defense ranks 28th in the NFL in defensive takeaways with only 4.
Given the investment GM Berry made in the defense, signing free agents and using the draft by using the Browns 1st, 2nd, a 4th, and both 5th round picks in an effort to upgrade the defensive talent. After 6 games, (IMO) the return on that investment has not materialized, 'YET'. There is still time for Defensive Coordinator Woods to use the talent GM Berry provided to PRODUCE RESULTS.
Tonights game is an opportunity for the Browns defense to step up.
Baker always has his best games on Thursday nights. So denvers defense stands no chance, which will mean the Browns defense will be the better defense tonight.
The Browns defense needs to come up 'big' tonight, stopping the Broncos offense and hopefully creating some turnovers.
If the Browns are going to have any chance of making the playoffs, the Browns defense needs to play their best football. The Joe Woods defense can not afford any blown coverages in the secondary.
If Joe Woods defense doesn't play well in this game tonight, Woods future with the Browns might be questionable. The Browns defense ranks 28th in the NFL in defensive takeaways with only 4.
Given the investment GM Berry made in the defense, signing free agents and using the draft by using the Browns 1st, 2nd, a 4th, and both 5th round picks in an effort to upgrade the defensive talent. After 6 games, (IMO) the return on that investment has not materialized, 'YET'. There is still time for Defensive Coordinator Woods to use the talent GM Berry provided to PRODUCE RESULTS.
Tonights game is an opportunity for the Browns defense to step up.
I agree with this statement Woods is on thin ice the lack of aggressiveness is IMO unacceptable and at this point I believe Woods is holding this defense back.
I hate seeing coaches let go but Joe's time is quickly running out. I am a reasonable person in my view and will tolerate quite a bit Joe is running out of chances with me.
I hate passive defenses and I believe his lack of aggressive play calling is the reason we are ranked so low especially with 3rd down conversion. The talent we have is top shelf and the results are lacking. I think we all have seen what this defense is capable of doing. I believe football to be a very emotional game, and you set a tone early in games and in the process create the mind set of the players running the defense Joe's wait and see approach sucks and I am sick of it. This talent is being wasted, and IMO Joe is the cause of our issues on defense, he sets a tone of passiveness and IMO that is just all wrong.
I can't say until I review the video of the game, but it sure looked like Woods did simplify the defense using a more basic defense. I didn't see any busted coverages or confusion. The defense did a good job last night...just what the team needed.
I agree, Mac. A couple times during the game I thought we were playing faster. Might have been individual's big play, but as a unit they looked sharper, I thought. Woods still has a ways to go IMO.
I didn't realize how important JOK has become to our Defense, we truly missed him and I think he is the glue to the Defense. Once we get him healthy again, Garrett and Clowney and others with become much more relevant again!!
Yes. I think the lousy Ravens vs Bengals matchup number1 in 2021, in October, that awful game yesterday. I think it stands as a statement that Offense wins still wins championships.
I mean, all day yesterday, ALL OF YESTERDAYS GAMES, the Entire NFL has become an Offense driven game, Offense, Offense, Offense, Offense. The league just won't let anybody play defense anymore. and I'm sorry. But! Everytime! I keep seeing ticky tack roughing the passer penalties, for brushing a QB, I keep thinking...
ONE of these guys, one of these defenders, eventually is just going to say, ... Well!! If they want to see a Roughing!!
I'll show them a Roughing!!! and ya, they'll get kicked out and there will be a penalty, but it will be brutal! Just no forethought by the league It's like the boy who cried wolf!
Easy... he never amounted to much the entire time he was here. He was average, at best, and he hasn't been too much better than that down there. He has flashes in games, and a game or two per year where he stands out, but he disappears for most of a season. e.g. He played a really bad Falcons team yesterday and was mostly invisible.
That's a really weird graphic. Combining First Downs and Touchdowns?? How do you even read that?
What stands out to me is just how poor we are in the TO department.
I see our guys going for the strip instead of the tackle all the time, yet we never get it. Imagine how good we could be if we just went for the tackle? Probably still not very good, but we might actually get guys down on first contact every now and again.
Myles Garrett had 1.5 sacks, using a nice move to slide by the Bengals offensive tackle. MG leads the NFL in sacks with 12 and the Browns defense sacked Burrows 5 times bring'n their sack total to 27 and 2nd place in the NFL one sack behind some other team.
Myles Garrett had 1.5 sacks, using a nice move to slide by the Bengals offensive tackle. MG leads the NFL in sacks with 12 and the Browns defense sacked Burrows 5 times bring'n their sack total to 27 and 2nd place in the NFL one sack behind some other team.
Rich Eisen today said that Myles Garrett is a "Grown a** grim reaper"... which implies that the real grim reaper isn't nearly as scary.
Defense can win a Championship, but on the flip side, defense can lose a Championship, too!
It wasn't until Chuck Noll's 4th season as HC of the Steelers before Noll's team posted a winning record.
It wasn't until Chuck Noll's 6th season as HC of the Steelers before they won a Super Bowl.
It's obvious that a few more major changes need to made before Stefanski is going to lead the Browns to a successful season that includes success in the regular season and the playoffs.
Stefanski needs to evaluate himself and if he is doing all he should be doing to insure the Browns success.
Good point bone. Stefanski has had a sophomore slump. He’s still very inexperienced. He’s going to be here a long time. In the long run games like this might be good for him … I actually do have faith in him to right the ship of the franchise.
And our losses to: Baltimore (11-5) Pittsburgh (12-4) Las Vegas (8-8)
We had 1 win last season at this point against a team with a winning record and 7 of our 10 games were played against teams that would end up .500 or worse.
This seasons wins: Houston (1-8) Chicago (3-6) Minny (4-5) Denver (5-5) Cincy (5-4)
And our losses to: KC (6-4) LA Chargers (5-4) Arizona (8-2) Pittsburgh (5-3-1) New England (6-4)
We have 1 win against a team with a winning record, at this point, but only 4 of our 10 games have been played against teams that are currently .500 or worse.
We are basically right where we were last year, we are beating the .500 and below teams that we should beat, but we aren't beating the top half that we need to compete with... and on our remaining schedule, the Lions is our only game against a team that is not currently over .500... so we have put ourselves in a very bad spot to make the playoffs, but regardless, we will find out a lot about whether we are able to compete with playoff caliber teams in this stretch.. and with 4 games left in our division, we will have a good understanding where we stand against the teams in our division..
It definitely seems like we struggle to consistently rise to the occasion and break the glass ceiling of mediocrity. It just has that feeling of resignation to never be a great team.
Belichick is considered by most to be the greatest game planner ever. He was that way as DC under Parcells.
His record speakes volumes.
Coaching is all about putting the players you have in the best position to win. That did not happen.
Consistency means you do it more times than not. That has been the issue. We have one game when all looks good then lay an egg.
The defense in particular has been inconsistent. The Viking and Cinci game we played very good defense. Cardinals, Chargers, Patriots, we were horrible.
Offense seems like more of the same inconsistent. Injuries have played more of part on offense.
We are not alone. Look around the league. The Bills lost to the Jags. Dolphins beat the Ravens. Washington beat the Bucs.
Every team has at least two loses. Division leaders plenty have three loses. As much as many on this Board want to single out players.
Rosters have 53 guys and injuries often occur. It is very hard to win each week.
To be a great team you need to be able to execute at a high level every week. Parity is real.
To return to the topic's orbit: This defense will not win championships as played. They do not look like better teams' defenses. And they look inferior regularly despite having more talent than their play displays. They don't get off the field on third downs often enough, don't seem to change or adjust much in-game or week to week, and what has been exposed gets them burnt repeatedly. One corner whiffs regularly. We are often chasing a play that is already made. Seems to suit Woods and Ski. By week 11, surely you are seeing your scheme come together and getting the unit play you want and believe in, your philosophical football foundation. Did the defenses look different Sunday to others.
That wasn't a loss. It was worse IMO. The downward spiral is getting worse faster.
I see this as a good thing..leaders on the defense speaking out...
We have seen some on this message board wonder what the heck the defensive plan was and question the plan as well as the coaches responsible for the defensive plan. Problems with the defense was the last thing many expected to see going into the season, but from the very first game there were questions concerning the defensive game plan.
When fans complain, no one from the Browns organization listens. When commentators and talking heads complain about the Browns defense, maybe a few within the Browns organization take notice. But, when those playing on the defense start questioning their defensive coaches...99% if those within the Browns organization take notice.
The Browns are 5-5 with an outside chance of making the playoffs, so it's not too late to "begin" listening to the fans, talking head, commentators and especially your own defensive players. The Browns defense has problems that can be corrected if there is a something done NOW!
Below, Myles Garrett speaks out!
Myles Garrett takes dig at Browns coaches after getting crushed by Patriots By Andrew Crane
After the Patriots racked up 45 unanswered points against the Cleveland Browns on Sunday, defensive end Myles Garrett said that he didn’t think the Browns countered like they were supposed to — taking a jab at defensive coordinator Joe Woods and the rest of the coaching staff.
In four of their five losses this season, the Browns have allowed opponents to score 33 points or more.
“We’ve got to go back to the drawing board and see how we can get better, see how we can scheme better, see how we can make adjustments on the fly,” Garrett said in his postgame press conference. “We never had a chance just because we didn’t make any adjustments on the sideline or when we had time to.”
Garrett didn’t specifically address Woods or head coach Kevin Stefanski by name, but said that the overall lack of adjustments allowed the New England offense to keep stringing drives together — scoring 38 points across the final three quarters. Only one drive, excluding victory-formation kneels at the end of the game, didn’t end with points for the Patriots, while quarterback Mac Jones was 19-for-23 with 198 yards with three touchdowns.
Running back Rhamondre Stevenson, drafted in this year’s fourth round out of Oklahoma, had the first 100-yard rushing game of his NFL career. Garrett, who finished with one tackle and sack, said that New England was “max protecting” and kept trying to attack the middle of the field, something that the Cleveland defense didn’t have an answer for.
“I think we didn’t counter like we are supposed to,” Garrett said. “We didn’t stop the bleeding and they kept attacking where we were deficient.”
Woods is in his second season as defensive coordinator for the Browns. He joined Stefanski’s staff from the San Francisco 49ers ahead of the 2020 season. Cleveland, which currently sits in last place in the AFC North, hosts the winless Detroit Lions on Sunday, while New England will look for a fifth straight win on Thursday when it travels to Atlanta.
The one thing that gets me about Myles speaking out (which I agree with), is that throughout the game the announcers repeatedly pointed out that they were letting MG rush enough to get behind him with their running and PA plays. I'm not sure how many plays were to his side, but it was a bunch. That situation was on Myles, his job might have been to pressure but he had to see what they were doing to him and HE had no answer either.
As of today, near as I can tell, the Browns rank 16th in scoring defense...that is not going to get the job done, no matter how the analytics boys manipulate the stats.
The Browns defense has FAILED SO FAR IN 2021...Woods has to take responsibility for the performance of HIS DEFENSE!
Yep. Right now Woods seems to be our weak link on the team.
We certainly didn't lose despite his efforts (they could've played well but we only scored 7), but the last 3 games have been very good defensive outings. Defense couldn't get off the field, but the offense couldn't stay on it, either.
And our losses to: Baltimore (11-5) Pittsburgh (12-4) Las Vegas (8-8)
We had 1 win last season at this point against a team with a winning record and 7 of our 10 games were played against teams that would end up .500 or worse.
This seasons wins: Houston (1-8) Chicago (3-6) Minny (4-5) Denver (5-5) Cincy (5-4)
And our losses to: KC (6-4) LA Chargers (5-4) Arizona (8-2) Pittsburgh (5-3-1) New England (6-4)
We have 1 win against a team with a winning record, at this point, but only 4 of our 10 games have been played against teams that are currently .500 or worse.
We are basically right where we were last year, we are beating the .500 and below teams that we should beat, but we aren't beating the top half that we need to compete with... and on our remaining schedule, the Lions is our only game against a team that is not currently over .500... so we have put ourselves in a very bad spot to make the playoffs, but regardless, we will find out a lot about whether we are able to compete with playoff caliber teams in this stretch.. and with 4 games left in our division, we will have a good understanding where we stand against the teams in our division..
Are you saying the defensive game planners aren't working hard enough of the coaches, or are you saying the Whole team, offensive coaches included aren't working hard enough in game planning.
Because I dang sure think the Browns have a more talented defense than the p'zant Dolphins today! and I sure as same think the Browns have a more talented quarter back than that blind noodle arm Tua, and we Sure as heck know the Browns running backs are better than mike gisecki
and all I can think of is how the dumb dolphins whooped the ravens by 12, when the Same Ole Browns couldn't beat the ravens in a hundred tries,
What are the game planners for! Do they come up with a form letter in May and then take the rest of the $##### year off!
Hammer is right you are wrong. If the question is This Year! Starts by Baker do not include the Broncos game. Baker was hurt in the Texans game, and also the patriots game but he started the Patriots game, and he returned in the Texans game. week1. Browns 29- 33, at chiefs week2. Browns 31-21 Texans week 3. Browns 26-6 Bears week4. "14"-7 at Vikings
5. 42-47 at chargers 6. "14" -37 Cardinals 7 Broncos game Baker did not play 17-14.
8. "10"- 15 Steelers 9. 41- 16 at Bengals 10. "7"-45 at Patriots.
The offense with Baker, or well, the TEAM, when Baker played has scored less than 21, 4 of 9 times in the 10 games this year, and once with Keenum in the Bronco game. So it's 4.
"The defense in particular has been inconsistent"?
Our defense has given up more than 21 points in five games.
Our offense has scored less than 21 points in in six games.
The inconsistency has been quite a team issue with neither side of the ball looking any less consistent than the other by any noticeable margin.
That level of inconsistency is on the coaches.
The offense started out somewhat consistent before Baker got hurt with games of 29, 31, and 26.... but the last 7 games have been 14, 42, 14, 17, 10, 41, 7.
the defense has been just as bad with 33, 21, 6, 7, 47, 37, 14, 15, 16, 45
Now I'm no guru, but that kind of inconsistency on both sides of the ball would led me to believe that if we have a good game plan, it works. If they are defeating our game plan, we can't/don't adjust.
This is just one of the reasons that I think Stefanski should relinquish the play calling to AVP so that he has time during the game to actually coach. To identify what's working and what's not and take responsibility for being a part of making those adjustments to both the offense and the defense.
I could buy into that if Baker would have thrown accurate balls last week. I just find it all odd. To me either the players execute or they don't. If they execute the plays being called it's said the coaches are doing great. The players fail to execute the plays, it's the coaches fault. I don't know what the problem is for everything that's going wrong. I just find it hard to buy into believing that the same HC that led us to an 11 win, playoff season last year suddenly forgot what he's doing. At some point we need to hold the players who are not performing accountable.
No, Stefanski didn't forget what he is doing... our schedule is significantly harder this year than it was last year, plus there is an entire year of film and an entire off-season to breakdown what Stefanski did last year... I don't think he forgot what he's doing, but I do question whether he has grown in what he is doing or if he is just doing the same things he did last year, which most teams are ready for. Our offense felt a lot more consistent last year but we were still held under 21 points 7 times, single digits 3 times....
Maybe that's why AVP was so successful in the playoff game against the Steelers (putting up 48 points), because they could prepare for the Browns but couldn't prepare for AVP calling the plays... so using the same playbook, maybe the nuance of difference in how he called the plays is what made him so successful in his one game..
Plus, his QB this year has played more than half the games with a serious shoulder injury...
I think that if this FO is anywhere near as analytics-driven and committed to leaving no stone unturned in terms of improvement, we're going to see some changes over the off-season. I doubt we'll see anything in-season so long as the team sticks together and doesn't completely fall apart. They responded to the OBJ exit and they need another response now.
And I'm not saying they should do anything dramatic, but the coaching staff needs to all, each one, take a good long look in the mirror and some blunt conversations need to occur.
Maybe that's why AVP was so successful in the playoff game against the Steelers (putting up 48 points), because they could prepare for the Browns but couldn't prepare for AVP calling the plays... so using the same playbook, maybe the nuance of difference in how he called the plays is what made him so successful in his one game..
Some would say that would be a reason CKS should stop calling plays, but I do not concur.
Maybe that's why AVP was so successful in the playoff game against the Steelers (putting up 48 points), because they could prepare for the Browns but couldn't prepare for AVP calling the plays... so using the same playbook, maybe the nuance of difference in how he called the plays is what made him so successful in his one game..
Some would say that would be a reason CKS should stop calling plays, but I do not concur.
From my novice vantage point, based on our gross inconsistency and frequent stagnation on offense, 1 of 3 things has to be true..
1. Everybody on the offense who is not named Nick Chubb has regressed, with Baker not only regressing but falling completely off the cliff. 2. Baker is way more hurt than anybody is letting on and Stefanski won't pull him for his own, and the teams, good. 3. Stefanski either didn't change up the offense from last year and most teams are onto him or he did change it up and his changes aren't very effective.
Like most offenses, everything starts with our OL, and we had a ton of injuries down the stretch last year, far more than we have had to this point this year, yet the offense remained much more consistent.
I definitely think something has to be going on with Baker. Aside from that forced INT against the Chiefs, he was destroying them with all kinds of downfield passing and whatnot.
I will say that - from my novice eye like yours - one thing I feel is different between AVP and Stefanski in terms of playcalling is the complexity. Stefanski seems to be more of a chess player in the mold of Kyle Shanahan, where he sets up certain plays at the beginning and then shows that same look later in hopes of catching the defense off guard. It has the boom potential of completely catching the defense with their pants down, or it could blow up in our face.
In the Steelers game last year, I felt like AVP just found a pressure point and kept pushing it. I can't remember who that OLB was the Steelers had, but he got absolutely annihilated by Teller on one pull. It seems AVP noticed, because he just kept doing it. The Steelers seemed like they knew it was coming, but just couldn't stop it at times.
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