DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What is a “Franchise Quarterback”?

Same. Which is why it hurts so much when he sucks.

Me too

I understand the detractors, but I’m not giving up on Baker, not yet. He was lights out for us the last eight or nine games in 2020.

Everything was fine last week, but then he has a stinker of a game (like everyone else in an orange helmet or a headset on the sidelines, except the punter) and now he’s garbage. Got it.

For whatever reason, we are not throwing to our deep passes. It was only one play, but the telecast showed a play where there was no one open down the field. Nobody.

Later, Baker rifled one to Njoku, and he drops it. Not the reason we lost, but the reason we lost was not Mayfield, it was because our Defense played like crap. We were beaten badly, on both sides of the ball, man-handled. Placing most of the blame on our QB is mid-guided.

The topic is a dumb idea.
A franchise QB?? You know it when you see it. One who wins over time, one who can win games with his play.
One whom everyone associates with the same team over time.
The topic is a dumb idea, (It will get a dumb response.)

none of this whining will help them beat Detroit or any other teams on the way to their probable 8-9 finish.

Are the coaches hamstringing your franchise quarterback?

A franchise quarterback is one who does insurance commerials. There are only 3 in the league.

[/quote]
A franchise quarterback is one who does insurance commercials. There are only 3 in the league.[/quote]

Now that's funny!

I just don't understand how we improve the talent the way we did and have the same staff but look so much worse. We have flashed greatness in some games and ineptitude in others this season. The Chicago and Cinci games are the browns I want to see. What we got against the Steelers and New England is the opposite of the other two games. Toss out those games and we are just an average .500 team, leave them in, same. Although, I'm convinced that the staff that won Ski coach of the year last year had the ability to fix this, this year they seem to be clueless on how to fix anything. And we are starting to see cracks in the facade of how great this roster is... how great the coaching is... how great the players are... recipe for disaster. Sad part is, nothing is wrong that winning won't fix for the team and for the QB.

Why a dumb idea? How many people wanted Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold? How many QBs actually maintain a high level of performance including winning championships? How much of winning is related to the ownership, the FO, talent accumulation/development and coaching in addition to the abilities of the QB himself? There are not a lot of “franchise QBs” because the term is stupid. You want the best QB that you can get, an elite QB, however you acquire or develop one. As an interesting point how many long for the days of Bernie Kosar who won nothing?

This isn’t whining about anything. It is asking a question since we have lacked for a truly quality QB since the expansion franchise came into being in 1999.

Maybe Sam Darnold will be available. If he saw ghosts in New York I'm sure he'll see them in Cleveland! On second thought he better not come here the ghosts may run him right out of town!!!

Darnold went from a love to hate relationship in CLT very quickly. He and Rosen were definitely the most popular picks that year by most posters on this board. Lamar and Baker probably tied with just a handful of posters wanting them.

I wanted nothing to do with Rosen or Lamar. I wanted Allen followed by Baker. Gun to my head I woulda taken Lamar over Rosen.

How many teams have scored under 21 points in six games so far this season and have people trying to pretend they are set at the QB position moving into the future?

Without bothering to look at the game scores I would bet that there are a pretty good number of teams that are not set at QB. Of course, one also would bet that those same teams have a lot more issues than just the QB.

It seems it's like flipping a coin around here though. When we have a great game scoring points, the claims are we have a great supporting cast. The OL, the RB's, the WR's all are just fine. But when we have an outing like we had Sunday, suddenly we have a lot of other problems. That's not how any of this is supposed to work. And yes, I know Chubb and Hunt are out, but Johnson had 157 total yards.

So what are these "other issues" we have that causes us not to score points?

So I am clear - are you blaming all the issues of the offense on Baker?

From your post it *appears* as if you don't think the supporting cast is an issue. It *appears* you don't see or believe there are other issues. That would seem to indicate you think the issue is virtually all the QB.

Right now we don't have a franchise QB, BUT we have a QB I am not giving up on.

Then please explain to me whose fault it is? Is it or is it not true we have one of the NFL's top OL's? How about the RB's? Even Johnson had a 5.2 yards per carry average against the Patriots on 19 carries and another 58 yards in the passing game. People have talked glowingly about our WR's and they have been very productive in some games. People said we played better on O without OBJ. Mayfirld only passed for over 50% by one completion. So who do you fault for that?

I didn't say it was anyone's fault. I asked you to confirm your position.

Some good points.

I think the changes that might come -

Nothing at QB. Baker has a cheap 5th year option that is a no brainer. Based on rookie year and last half of last year, you'd be short sighted to move on so quickly. He's hurt this year since week 3 with a torn labarum and broken bone ... and I get that gives the anti-Bakers lots of cannon fodder, but he's still better than Case Keenum even while hurt. I guess a change I would make is to lose Case and his high salary.

WR - Berry has shown a penchant for not drafting in the early rounds. And maybe our lack of talent and ability to separate etc reflects that. We have to see change at WR. We can hope/expect growth from Schwartz and DPJ while Landry is likely going to have to restructure or be gone.

TE - we have some decisions to make but we are okay, or better than okay.

RB - we are most definitely set.

Just by way of clarification I hope that Baker is the guy because things will just drag on and on if he isn’t. I think that his injuries and the chip he always has on his shoulder due to thinking he must always prove himself have combined to work against him. I also think that Stefanski has run into a sophomore jinx. The combination of 16 games worth of film from last year, game films from this year and a harder schedule probably have exposed tendencies that opposing teams are exploiting.

So, with his knee tweaked imo Baker absolutely should not start on Sunday. There is no way that the Browns will make the playoffs this year (yes, I know mathematically it is possible) so resting him is more important. I think they should draft a QB in the next draft. Unless there is a stellar QB available don’t waste a first round pick on one. This does not mean giving up on Baker. It does mean that the entire organization had better think long and hard about the QB position and do what needs to be done to move forward.

If we got Wilson we would be set for a few years but with Rodgers it's a stopgap that would last maybe a year or 2. We would still need to draft and develop a replacement. We haven't been to good at that over the years.

I think Wilson is top 5 ... maybe top 3 in the NFL. His price tag would be too much. I don't see Seattle making that trade.

Rodgers is elite - I think you'd need a new HC if you landed Rodgers so I don't think he'd be in play. But he could win you a SB in the next 2 years.

I am not sold on Watson - who played with the best WR in the NFL for a couple years and managed to go to one playoffs and lose. He gets ridiculous amount of love and kudos ... and has done little in a far superior team to the situation Baker took over. Ad his legal issues - no, I would not want him.

I agree that Wilson’s price tag would be too high. I don’t see Wilson, Rodgers or Watson coming here. The comments regarding Watson are valid, I think.

All of this really shows how hard it is to find, develop, build around and keep a good QB.

What is a Franchise QB?

Simple: A QB that you can win a championship with - and that is both your Trent Dilfer's and Rich Gannon's as well as your Brett Favre's and John Elway's.

I think each person that plays poorly bares their share of the responsibility. This offense has scored less than 21 points in six of our games. Chubb is the third rated rusher in the NFL currently and that's even after missing playing time. Our OL is one of the top units in the league. The OBJ excuse has left the building. So while I won't blame 100% of the fault at Bakers's feet, a lot of it I do.

I understand just how convenient is it for you not to respond with your thoughts on the matter.

5

Yeah, I was counting the Falcons game which was a preseason game.

Sadly 4 out of 5 of them have been during the past 6 weeks.

Well you were lambasting all these theories about how posters had all these excuses for Baker but you didn't specifically state what you thought the issue was and whether it was all Baker or mostly Baker .... you keep writing on others perceived excuses for Baker instead of what you see the issues are. So it seemed a good place to start in qualifying your thoughts. I guess I am interested in what "A Lot Of It" is defined as ? That could cover everything from 60% up to 95%.

Personally I think Baker has played bad in a few games. I think he owns some of that. But I also see "a lot" of other influences - If you want to be specific with the % you blame Baker I'll do the same. If you want to leave in generalities the other things I define as 'a lot' of other influences include:

1. The injury.
2. The coaching, entire team preparedness and play calling.
3. Receivers dropping balls. Some mediocre Receivers not getting much separation. Routes and play design with receivers too close together.
4. Specifically with the Patriots game - KS being Pwned by Bill Belichik. I mean completely, totally, utterly.

I've said elsewhere - I think "the real" Baker is who we saw last year in the final 9 or 10 games of the season when PFF graded him the 3rd best (?) QB in the NFL over that stretch. I think we saw flashes of immense arm talent in his rookie year. I think he still has that. I think the periods he has played bad there have been significant things influencing his play in addition to Baker's own mental and physical struggles - Kitchens year. KS introduction and retooling few games last year. This year with a torn Labarum .... Guys that complete 20 or 21 passes in a row to comeback and win a game in the NFL. do not do it by accident, and there is more to the team's struggles than the QB.

Seahawks, Steelers have scored under 21 points 5 times....
Chiefs, Chargers, Falcons have scored under 21 points 4 times...
Ravens, Cowboys, Packers, Rams, Cardinals 3 times...

1. The injury seems legit until you factor in we put up 41 points the week before. Roller coaster Baker doesn't seem to fit with the injury theory as to Bad Baker.

2. We score well? Good coaches, preparedness and play calling. We flop? Bad coaches and play calling and poor preparedness.

3. Once again, these are the very same WR's we had in the Cincy game. Every QB has WR's who drop passes. One week people claim they're good. Until we don't put up points. Then they're bad. I guess we aren't better without OBJ?

4. Well that explains one of the past four out of five games we've scored less than 21 points.

You can take a slice of any QB who has had any success and say "that's who they are". Or you can look at where they actually are now. Who they are now is who they are. You're speaking in terms of "who he was". There have been games since the torn labrum where we have lit up the scoreboard. If that's really the issue and we can't score, why in the hell is he still on the field?

I've never questioned Baker's physical abilities. What I think we're seeing is the lack of ability to consistently be in the mental frame of mind to translate that ability to the field of play. Sometimes I just don't think he can overcome his brain to perform to his physical ability.

So the teams atop the NFL can score. Those with mediocre records have trouble scoring consistently. That's pretty much what I expected.

I'm sure the 99 yard INT return, the 70 yard run, and the 65 yard pass had a lot to do with us getting to 41, which involved 1 throw from Baker... Baker only threw the ball 21 times for 220 yards or so and he faced very little pressure.. it wasn't like he was the driver in us scoring 41 points. We forced turnovers, turned them into points, our defense got off the field and gave us opportunities.. If nothing else, the rest of the team played the perfect game to protect Baker's shoulder from being a factor. The Bengals game wasn't the indication that Baker is great any more than the Patriots game is the indication that he has to go.

Sometimes.... that can be a big part of it.

The only game I put at the feet of the WRs as a major contributor in us losing is the Steelers game... they had much more than the occasional drop, and some that were extremely costly at very important moments. But in the Bengals game, DPJ got open on the deep route for the big score against Cincy... other than that one catch for 60 yards, DPJ had 1 for 26, Schwartz had 1 for 15, Landry had 3 for 11... that was the extent of the involvement of our WRs..

Baker tore his labrum in week 2.. since then...
19 of 31 for 246 yards (scored 26)
15 of 33 for 155 yards (scored 14)
23 of 32 for 305 yards (scored 42)
19 of 28 for 234 yards (scored 14)
20 of 31 for 225 yards (scored 10)
14 of 21 for 218 yards (scored 41)
11 of 21 for 73 yards (scored 7)

You can reach whatever conclusion you want about it, they aren't asking him to do a lot... the true outlier in his stats is that the Patriots game is an anomaly... and that Belichick basically owned Stefanski on both sides of the ball...

Can't quite say that YET, I looked at this last night. (In a new light, taking a different perspective after the loss to the Patriots.

Here's how you play the game, You don't want to lose to AFC teams, (chiefs, chargers, now Pats) because you go behind in so many tie breakers, But, and, part of the game is when you lose a non division AFC game and fall behind that team, (if you shove them UP, into their divisions winner category, then it doesn't hurt you, because somebody has to win those other 3 divisisions your team is not in, and those 3 spots, your team was never eligible for anyway. (Browns can't win the AFC east, AFC South, or AFC West, because they are in the AFC North.)
So. IF!!! I switched, from assuming the Bills would win the East, (titans, ? and Ravens) as one may have done for the past several weeks and look at ways, the Patriots could win the East, and the BILLs could lose 4 future to finish with 8 losses.

Then the prospects, of giving teams the Browns had not beat, 8 losses total, Finding a way for the Browns to end with only 7 losses
going team by team through the 16 AFC teams,
If we hope the Raiders have fallen apart because they no longer have Gruden as a coach, and the Browns can find a way.
If The Bills somehow lose 8 having 3 now with 8 games to go so 3-5. (But even so, ... the bills lost to the Steelers so if the Browns split with the steelers, and the Bills haven't played the Patriots, so if the Patriots sweep the bills, , browns and them beat the Texans, sure the bills beat the chiefs, but if they lost to , whatever. the Bills would be neck and neck.
If the Titans win out, fine,
If the Colts go 4 and 3, starting by beating the Bills this week, in their final 7 and end with 8 losses, those 3 losses coming to the Buccaneers, Patriots and Raiders.
(Basically nothing wrong if the Buccaneers, and Patriots win out, and Titans wouldn't hurt either, let them win out.) that would give the Colts 8 losses.

If the Browns, Finish 10-7, by, Beating Detroit,
Splitting with Baltimore, or Sweeping Baltimore to get to 11-6, sure,
BEAT the RAiders, who are coachless, and let the Chargers win out to take that division won't hurt there.

The Chiefs, already have 4 losses. SO! if the Cowboys beat the Chiefs this week, (Go cowboys,) that's 5,
and if the Broncos, Sweep the Chiefs, but don't win any others because they haven't played yet, The Browns already BEAT the Broncos so they'd have a same record advantage over the Broncos,
but that would give the Chiefs 8 losses. The Raiders can Beat, or tie the Bengals this week, then fall apart (they already beat the steelers in week 2, and the ravens, iirc.)(thank you them)
And the Browns are going to beat the Raiders when they play.

Then, the Browns can do whatever vs. the Packers, (Browns are going to win, but it won't be necessary)
Because the next week,
the Browns are going to Beat the Steelers on MNF,
Then Beat the Bengals AT HOME in the final game of the regular season.

Browns 10-7
Bengals 10-7 (Browns swept them so (bye bye bad guys) (out of all considerations at start by 3rd place in division rule)
Steelers 9-7-1. Ravens win the division, Browns get the First Wild card.

Titans win a division you can't, win out who cares
Patriots (not bills) win a division you can't who cares
Bills 8 losses, Or, (there are two other wild card spots you can shove them into one.
Chiefs 8 losses, or, shove them into a wild card spot.

Raiders 8 losses
Broncos 10-7 but the Browns beat them head to head, (sai-ya-nora, amigo!)
LA Chargers win their division you can' t so who cares,

Dolphins, Jets, Jags and Texans , 8+ losses. Colts 8 losses.
Browns would make the playoffs!!!

Titans bye, probably, Browns at Ravens, or Browns at Chargers, or Browns at Patriots for the first playoff game.

What it takes, This is the Browns schedule that remains. Browns now are , 5-5, (3-4 in the afc,) (1-1 in the division)
Detroit win by 10+
At Baltimore win by 10+
--Bye week--
Baltimore, win by 10+
Raiders, (a must win) win by 10+
at Packers, Christmas day Win!
At Steelers Monday Night Football, win by 10+
Cincinnati. win by 10+
Wild card games Win (with Chubb back!)
Divisional games win
Conference championship games Win
--Media week-- (take pictures, give interviews)
Super Bowl Win by a Ton!!!

Parade. Show em all !!!

Thanks, I needed that😁. That is quite a mountain to climb!

Dak, as of today, is the best QB in the league.

Drafting 26th in his 3 year.

Drafting 26th in his 3 year.