DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where are the finishers on this team?

Maybe you should pay better attention next time instead of lying about what was actually posted. But then that's nothing new.....

I would still like to know who those guys are. Why include that statement if you want others to ignore it?

or at this job at this level

I don't care about NFL coaching experience, especially on the defensive side.

Leohnard played 10 or so years in the NFL. He knows NFL D.

People don't need NFL coaching experience to coach in the NFL. Jeff saturday had no coaching experience at all...he is a head coach right now.

Every player in the NFL knows their assignments on their side of the ball. According to your logic that means they would all make good NFL DC's or OC's. I find it odd how you always seem to claim that the Big 10 is a weaker conference than the SEC but now promote some college DC from the big 10 as being the answer. Things that make you go hmmm...

So he's a DC in the Big 10 who doesn't even face the best college teams in the country, according to you, and that's who you want?

No it doesn't. The guy has proven to be a good coach.


As far as the SEC/Big 10 thing, that doesn't have anything to do with anything here.

I am not disputing the "or at this job" part. I am disputing the other part because the conversation was about hiring Leonhard. mac and maybe others didn't want Leonhard hired because he had no NFL coaching experience. So again, I ask for the list of coaches the Browns have hired who had no previous NFL coaching experience?

Btw--------all this fuss and Leonhard probably won't even get the job. LOL.........

True enough.

I am just expressing who I would like to see. To me he has all of the qualifications, including being an alumnus of the team.

peen, I wasn't getting on your case. You are making an argument for your preferred choice. I am taking exception w/those who are trying to say the Browns have a history of bringing in coaches w/no prior NFL coaching experience. I really can't think of any, but that doesn't mean there weren't a few guys. Maybe Fazio? He was a HC at Pitt [the university] but I am not sure if he coached D somewhere else in the NFL before he came here. He probably did. No matter what, it's certainly like we have a long history of making such moves. It is just another attempt at trashing the Browns by those w/an agenda.

So you have no idea what "or" means. Instead you wish to parcel a part of a sentence in order to change the context. Not surprised. And it seems it's you and Peen making a big deal about Leonhard who has zero experience as an NFL coach in any capacity.

I know exactly what "or" means. Again, I get the latter part of your statement. However, I think the first part is yet another fabrication by you to make the Browns look bad. Furthermore, I contend that many teams have hired Head Coaches who have not had any prior HC experience in the NFL. So, what's the big deal? It's just yet another example of you hating on the Browns.

The "statement" as you say is the entire sentence. Not a parceled portion of it. As an English teacher I thought you would understand that. And I know you're fully aware of this, but many of my posts aren't and haven't had anything to do with "making the Browns look bad". There are posters on here that do far more of that than I. Yet you don't seem to say anything about it. Like Rish for example. You seem to be very elective about who you target with that mantra. You know I've given watson credit for every game he has shown improvement as an example. But never mind all of that, right?

Can we re visit game #I vs. the Carolina Panthers in 2022.

The Browns defense in the first 4 series had the Panther @b looking like he'd go 0 for a million and get sacked nineteen times
if the rest of the game continued like that.

Now, the Browns defense was coached ok, ready to play.

Now?

The Browns offense, in the opening half of the opening game against Carolina?
Why didn't they put up more points. The Panthers were not a great defense that day, not even a really good defense that day.

Because offense is the consistent problem. need more evidence? 2020, the run up to the playoff year,

Look at ANY, first possession on OFFENSE of an overtime period that year, and they were all terrible, unprepared, looked like they didn't belong or weren't ready to decide what to do on offense in overtime, and that is consistent over 30 games.

It's not the defense that is the problem,
the offense is still the problem, it has been for all but maybe 2 years since Nineteen Ninety Nine,

... not for nothing but I feel that Leonhard as a DC would be amazingly a step back to BAD like Chud as a HC bad,

In Watson's first game back, the defense outscored the Browns offense by getting I4 points and seven more on a punt return to only 3, or maybe 6 after a turnover, but the offense wasn't doing well.

The offense needs retooled for 2023, the defense is fine, but, when will they ever learn.

They need to open their eyes, somebody needs to open their eyes.

Your sentence is worded as in both things have taken place. Not an either or proposition. Then again, we all know that your insecurities won't allow you to admit you are wrong.

Awe. And a very Happy New Year to you too.

Urban Dictionary of or changes to O.R. haha.
I. short for over rated
2. organized rhyme
3. over reaction
:see more definitinons:

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.


awe
/ô/
noun

a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder.
"they gazed in awe at the small mountain of diamonds"


verb
inspire with awe.
"they were both awed by the vastness of the forest"



Similar-sounding words
awe is sometimes confused with aw and aww

Finally you can use your English degree since you left the classroom. But this isn't your classroom. You seem to have a problem getting a grasp on that fact. And once again, Happy New Year.

Actually, I use that degree all the time to decipher all the BS you spew daily. Funny you mention classrooms when you and your little gang of terror tell others which stats and which articles people can post and which ones to not post.

Gang of terror? And you talk about the BS I post? You're hilarious! When have I ever told anyone which articles they can post or which one's not to post? I haven't. Yet you try to call out others for posting BS? Put down the whiskey bottle. And again, Happy New Year.

Who cares? Coaching is coaching.

If the guy never played in the NFL or was only around for a year as a practice squad player I might get your point. Joe Woods had plenty of pro coaching experience.

What did that do for him?

Joe Woods was never a DC - which I think is Pit's point. I don't know diddly about Leonhard - so can't comment one way or the other. McVay had a pretty skinny resume when he became (then) Redskins OC - 3 seasons later he's HC of the Rams and is the poster boy for "new up and coming" .... If you get the RIGHT guy it doesn't matter if he's a retread or brand new to the NFL in my eyes, getting the right guy seems about as hard as getting the right QB for the Browns.

The Browns have had 20 Offensive Coordinators in their history. 10 of those or 50% were hired with no OC experience. 6 of the 20 had winning records as OC's before getting the Browns position. In the last 35 years, the Browns only had 2 OC's with winning records: Joe Pendry 1988 (10-7) and Marc Trestman 1989 (10-7-1) with the jury still out on Van Pelt who sits at 52.0% (27-25).


Coach________Years__________Record___Win %_Playoff record__Prior Experience as OC before CLE
Alex Van Pelt___2020-Current___26-24-0__52.0%___ 1-1_____1 year Buffalo (6-10)
Todd Monken___2019__________ 6-10-0__37.5%___ 0-0_____3 years Tampa (19-29)
Todd Haley____ 2018__________ 2-5-1___31.3%___ 0-0_____2 years ARI (20-16), 6 years Pittsburgh (74-39-0)
John DeFilippo__2015__________ 3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Kyle Shanahan_ 2014__________ 7-9-0___43.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Norv Turner____2013 __________4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0_____3 years Dallas (43-25-1), 1 year San Diego (5-11), 1 year Miami (9-7), 1 year SFO (7-9),
Brad Childress__2012 __________5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____4 years PHI (47-24)
Brian Daboll___ 2009-2010_____10-22-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____NONE
Rob Chudzinski_2007-2008_____14-18-0__43.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Maurice Carthon 2005-2006_____7-15-0___31.8%___ 0-0_____1 year DET (3-13), 2 years Dallas (16-17)
Terry Robiskie__2004__________ 3-8-0___27.3%___ 0-0_____5 years LA Raiders (46-36),
Bruce Arians___ 2001-2003_____21-27-0_ 43.8%___ 0-1_____NONE
Pete Carmichael 2000__________ 3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0_____NONE
Steve Crosby___1994-1995____ 16-16-0__50.0%___ 1-1_____NONE
Jim Shofner____1990_________ 3-13-0__ 18.8%___ 0-0_____2 years Houston Oilers (8-17), 4 years Cardinals (23-39-1)
Marc Trestman_ 1989__________ 9-6-1___59.4%___ 1-1_____NONE
Joe Pendry____ 1988__________10-6-0___62.5%___ 0-1_____NONE
Lindy Infante__ 1986-1987_____ 22-9-0___71.0%___2-2_____1 year Cincinnati (7-3-0)
Joe Scannella__1984___________5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0_____NONE
Larrye Weaver_ 1983__________ 9-7-0 56.3%___ 0-0_____2 years San Diego (18-11)

The Cleveland Browns have not had a Defensive Coordinator with a career winning record with the Browns since 1989 and the jury is still out on Joe Woods who currently sits at 52.0%. The only hire the Browns had directly from college at HC, OC, or DC was DC Nick Saban from Toledo in 1991.


Coach__________Years________Record___Win %___Playoff record___Prior Experience as DC before CLE
Joe Woods_____2020-Current___25-23-0__52.0%___ 1-1______2 years Denver (11-21)
Steve Wilks____2019__________ 6-10-0__37.5%___ 0-0______1 year Panthers (11-6)
Gregg Williams_2017-2018______7-24-1__ 23.4%___ 0-0______4 years TEN (45-24), 1 year JAX (5-11), 3 yrs NOS (41-13), 3 yrs Rams (17-31)
Louie Cioffi____2016___________1-15-0__ 6.3%____0-0______NONE
Jim O'Neil_____2014-2015_____10-22-0__ 31.3%___ 0-0______NONE
Ray Horton____2013___________4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0______2 years Arizona (13-19)
Dick Jauron___ 2011-2012______ 9-23-0__28.1%___ 0-0______4 years Jacksonville (38-32), 2 yrs DET (11-21)
Rob Ryan_____2009-2010______10-22-0__31.3%___ 0-0______5 yrs Oakland (20-60)
Mel Tucker____2008___________ 4-12-0__25.0%___ 0-0______NONE
Todd Grantham2005-2007______20-28-0__41.7%___ 0-0______NONE
Dave Campo__2003-2004_______9-23-0__28.1%___ 0-0______5 yrs Dallas (40-37)
Foge Fazio____2001-2002______16-16-0__50.0%___ 0-1______4 yrs MIN (46-25)
Romeo Crennel_2000___________3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0______NONE
Bob Slowik____1999___________ 2-14-0__12.5%___ 0-0______6 yrs Chicago (41-57)
Rick Venturi___1995___________ 5-11-0__31.3%___ 0-0______4 yrs IND (17-36),
Nick Saban___ 1991-1994______31-33-0__48.4%___ 1-1______NONE - College hire from Toledo
Jim Vechiarella_1990___________3-13-0__18.8%___ 0-0______NONE
Dan Radakovich1989___________ 9-6-1___59.4%___ 1-1______1 year SFO (2-14)
Dave Adolph___1984,1986-1988_37-26-0__58.7%___ 2-3______NONE
Tom Bettis____1985____________8-8-0___50.0%___0-1______1 year KCC (2-14), 7 years Cardinals (45-60-1)
Schottenheimer1980-1984______34-39-0__46.6%___ 0-2______1 year NYG (5-9)
D Modzelewski 1976-1977______15-13-0__53.6%___ 0-0______NONE
Howard Brinker1964-1973______92-44-4__67.1%___ 3-6______NONE

I am not sure what the point is in posting all of that?



To me if you are hiring a coordinator who has NFL coordinator experience, you are hiring a guy who failed in the position unless he was in the job on a interim basis. It seems that very few cycle through the position with different teams if they are any good.

Coordinator is a steppingstone position to a head coaching position, be it in the NFL or college. I suppose in some cases people are hired who were good as a coordinator, got a HC position, floundered in that position then go back to being a coordinator.

Somebody who might fill that bill currently is Jim Schwartz. If the desire is to get an experienced D coordinator who had NFL success at the position, then Schwartz might be a guy to give a look.

Geez, Peen, it was posted because of the tiff on the forum about experience at the position and how the Browns did in that regard. Inquiring minds wanted to know. As far as success in the position, I agree that it's a revolving door and talent has a huge bearing on that. It is part of the hierarchy where OC/DC is a step toward the HC position, but the problem is and has been that just because you're a good foot soldier doesn't make you a great general. I've seen it my entire career where people are under the impression that a great foot soldier can be a general and they fail. The NFL is the poster child for that cause. IMHO, that's exactly what the Browns have in Stefanski. He can run an offense (to a degree), but he doesn't have the chops to be in control of everything that's required to be a HC. There's a reason why the vast majority of people have little to no idea who OC/DC are on a team. The Browns do not have that type of HC where those positions report to him and there in that lies the problem with the current Browns. Bringing on a new DC is most likely not going to solve the problems the Browns have today. They are talent weak (FO and HC decision makers) at many positions and they have a HC who has not shown he can manage the whole team. Passing off the teams' failures on the QB position last year and now the DC this year after a poorer performance to date than last year is nothing more than an excuse driven franchise that's underperforming due to a lack in leadership. Until that is addressed, the Browns will continue to be wannabes.

While a DC isn't the total answer, I do think it will make a fairly significant difference.

I am not going to say the D laid down, but it looked to me we were half-assing it far too many times. I think that was a direct reflection on Woods.

I think steve is trying to fight. I barely glanced at his posts because he is trying to prove some point that I did not make. I did not ask how many coaches have the Browns had that received a promotion. My question is how many coaches have the Browns hired that came directly from college and had no experience coaching in the NFL before? I saw Saban's name highlighted. Is he the only one?

Seeing Saban's name reminds me of that era. We actually had perhaps the greatest coaching staff ever assembled and our genius fans trashed our coaching staff because they were upset about one player's demotion. Go figure.

What fight and who mentioned you in any way, shape, or form about the previous coaches? Just because a person doesn't kneel down to your biased opinion doesn't make them try to cause a fight. You don't have to agree with my posts but just because I totally disagree with the majority of your opinions doesn't make me want a fight. This is a fan forum where I have as much right to state my opinion as you do. Nobody should have to be walking on pins and needles because they might cause you to go off like you do the vast majority of the time because another forum fan doesn't kneel before you and agree with your biased opinion. If you're going to take cheap shots at peoples posts that have no reference to you then buckle up, you get what you deserve. Some of us will continue to talk Browns football while you continue your crying about everything in a corner. As has been said before, this forum was such a nicer place to visit while you were on your self-imposed hiatus.

Just as I thought.....

You gave actual football statistics in regards to the coaching staffs. That must mean you want to fight. The stupidity involved in someone even uttering such a thing is obvious.

Where are the adults to scold the children for these posts?

Pretty sure Vers questioned a post by Pit about experience. Steve provided one post with experience history, Vers response was to say thank you but ask about a different coaching group. Steve has provided the same information as before but for the other coaching group, but now is accused of instigatinga fight and Vers claims he doesn't know why the stats have been posted that validate Pits original post that Vers trashed.

Facts are not his friend. It appears Peen isn't a fan of them either. But that's the game. Label someone as being negative or having an agenda to try and distract people away from the facts.

He posted facts, but they did were facts that had nothing to do w/my question and that your assertion that the Browns have hired college coaches who had never coached in the NFL before.

This whole conversation is off the rails. Experience where? Experience how? None of that matters. Read down this list of coaches STR. The problem isn't their experience level when they got here, the problem is that they were all sh*tty head coaches. It's like looking at a beat-up-POS-car, that doesn't run, and arguing over whether the tires will be good in the winter.


Freddie Kitchens
Kitchens was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2019 season.

Hue Jackson
Jackson was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2016-2018 seasons, a total of three years. Jackson's record as the team's head coach was 3-36-1, making him the least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Mike Pettine
Pettine was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2014-2015 seasons, a total of two years.

Rob Chudzinski
Chudzinski was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2013 season. Chudzinski's record as the team's head coach was 4-12-0, making him the third-least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Pat Shurmur
Shurmur was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2011-2012 seasons, a total of two years.

Eric Mangini
Mangini was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2009-2010 seasons, a total of two years.

Romeo Crennel
Crennel was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2005-2008 seasons, a total of four years.

Butch Davis
Davis was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 2001-2004 seasons, a total of four years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2002) and had a 0-1 record under Coach Davis in playoff games.

Chris Palmer
Palmer was the head coach for the Cleveland Browns in the 1999-2000 seasons, a total of two years. Palmer's record as the team's head coach was 5-27-0, making him the second-least successful head coach in Cleveland Browns history.

Quite a list of coaches none of whom were successful. Well. at least they battled and tried hard!!!!

The more things change the more they stay the same.

For an English major you sure don't comprehend very well. It is clearly posted in the DC post that the only HC/OC/DC the Browns have ever hired directly from the college ranks was Nick Saban from the U of Toledo as a DC. Now if that doesn't answer your question with the documented proof of where all the other hires came from then I don't know what the hell to tell you. Talk about someone just wanting to start a fight.

Butch Davis, Browns 2nd head coach after the rebirth in NinetyNine, had not been a HC in the NFL prior, and had come from the U, of Mia, if I recall correctly.
And became about the best HC since the return in my opinion, at least top 3, even after Ks, and Pettine or Palmer? ....or Crennel better than Palmer but Crennel not as good as Davis, Whatever.... Because he won a couple of games they weren't even supposed to compete in, Jacksonville being one of them.