DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where are the finishers on this team?

Keep on hearing how much talent this franchise has.
How many Pro Bowlers are up and down this roster
How elite this guy is or how great this guy is.
Yet when it matters in crunch time or 4th quarter
Where is all this elite talent at ?
This team has been in every game this year minus
The Pats game.
But when the heat is on, this team melts like butter
On a buttermilk biscuit.
Coaches coach players play. I understand the coaching
Staff and coordinators are open to justification of criticism
But how the accountability of the players?
Maybe Andrew Berry should be drafting players from
Colleges who showed up and delivered on the biggest stages
When it mattered. Looks like this roster has too many
Mental cremecakes led by Anthony Schwartz.
I look at all these teams that win, they have 4th q. Playmakers
The Browns don't. Does PFF have player grades for the 4th q. ?

A really hard-nosed middle linebacker type could help, but mostly this is an indictment of a coach who needs his pulse checked at crunch time. I don’t believe he wants to lose, but he acts like it doesn’t bother him very much.

He hasn't shown it in his short term here, but Watson is a finisher. That can't be disputed and it is a huge part of the reason why so many teams wanted to trade for him.

I think the idea that DW is an undisputed finisher is far, far from the truth or a statement that can't be questioned:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatsDe00.htm

He's 30-27 as a starter in the NFL. He quit on his team for a year and sat rather than play - we can debate whether he was upset at words said by the owner or if he was having a hissy fit because he didn't get to choose the next HC ... but bottom line he CHOSE to sit.

He's shown an abundance of talent. He's not proven to be an undisputed "finisher". That'd be someone's agenda talking.

What's that saying that ends w/something like "...remove all doubt?"

Once again, posters on this message board pretending they know more than all the other GMs and organizations in the NFL do about certain players. Talk about delusions of grandeur.

Ignoring the other responses which came after.
some of the finishers have been waived, cut, or not extended or however you want to put it, from a couple of years ago.
Maybe they don't like winners.

For a team with no finishers we certainly always end up finished

This topic should be why does the Browns offense not do better on so many drives.

Quality football response.

So your argument goes something along the lines of multiple NFL GMs bid on Watson ergobhe must be a finisher.

I don't think your argument is as strong as you believe. And as for the rest of the implied name calling and reference to a famous quote... Merry Christmas to you to.

I'm not a super big Watson guy, but I think it's safe to say he's an upgrade over Baker by a pretty decent margin. The problem is whatever his ceiling is will never be reached with Stefanski. Stefanski is not a head coach. I'm sure he's great at organizing team drills at camp cupcake and keeping the team on their paper schedule while telling the team "it's about the work" while they stare into space and yawn, but that's where his strengths stop.

It was clear Baker didn't know how to play the QB position regardless of Stefanski. I think Watson knows how to play it, but he will be held back by an incompetent HC.

Buckle in folks. If you think this year was a failure, 2023 promises to upstage it.

But this isn't a Baker topic or discussion, and I think you are being kind - by any measure of Watson in Houston and Baker for the Browns there is a very wide margin. Baker 2022 to Watson in Houston isn't in the same galaxy. But the comment/discussion is whether Watson is an undisputed finisher. His win loss record says otherwise, his stats say otherwise, his sitting out a year for whatever reason might indicate to some otherwise.

I think you toss this season out no matter what. People can and have made an argument that Watson should be closer to full game speed/performance, but I'm truly not in a rush to judge what he can do. Give him a full offseason and lets see him play next year. That's him / his talent and ability. Yes - Stefanski may well have an impact on Watson's ceiling and play - but he may also adapt? Let's wait and see. . . . on the issue of whether DW is an undisputed finisher? Only on the massage table at this point.

We have issues with a staff who does not seem mentally tough enough to demand results. We don't put people away (just ourselves). We have a talented group, but little to show for it. It doesn't seem to prove troublesome. We are busy learning from our mistakes, eliminating mistakes, learning to talk to each other, and moving forward while telling fans we are better while taking ownership of failures, most caused by us. I see us giving up leads, our offense drying up in the second half, and becoming drier still in the fourth quarter, and crapping out with final drive, game on the line.
When I was younger, I sold component stereo equipment. One truth I stressed to clients was this: Your system is only as good as your weakest component. Spend heavily on speakers or receivers or turntables as you wish, but all performance drops to the Lowest denominator. That's us it seems. We may have a fabulous QB, who seems good at throwing it into our bench and seldom running. But if Ski can't perform, and is too stubborn to give up play calling, then it will be a waste. We should be able to do more, but we get muscled and hustled. We seem OK with penalties and group failures. I haven't seen game-winning improvement, and I haven't seen much adjustments. If they like Ski, great! But I think he needs to have new parameters about the culture his bosses will insist upon, different demands. He may choose to go. Or go forward learning from this GIGO process that is installed. I want the Browns to win and be respectable.

Next year at this time I'd like to be talking about us being in the playoffs, possibly wining our division and who are opponent in the playoff's will be. That's what I'd like but I've got the feeling we'll be talking about the same old stuff we've been discussing for how long? I can't understand why we're one of the few teams that just can't get it right no matter who we have as players, coaches or the FO. What a shame.

Where are the finishers? Ask OBJ's daddy; he had it all figured out last year and turned the fanbase on our franchise QB.

Baker turned the fanbase on himself with poor play and immaturity. He's not a franchise QB. Guy has been on three teams this year alone.

I rag on Stefanski for not prioritizing winning but it really starts at the top. If Haslam prioritized winning we would have never hired Stefanski to begin with...or Depo for that matter.

Until the ownership changes or until the ownership changes, the Browns will never be good.

So you replace him with a guy facing 26 accusations of sexual impropriety; what's mature about him? Several posters say he's elite; I honestly can't say that because I never followed or watched him play, excluding games against us. I think he should be playing better now if that were true, but I'm holding out hope he will be that next year. Everything says this should have been a positive move in the W column. So far, meh. I'm not saying he's not elite; I'm saying I haven't seen that from him. Considering everything his fan club says, I'd be lying if I said he's been anything more than disappointing in his first few games. IMO, of course.

And I get you don't like Baker, but he played better for us than ANY other QB since the return. I think we should have given him more time and an extension; we gave up on him over the shiny ELITE toy more than his poor play, IMO. The FO obviously thinks DW is Elite too, and that is better than what they consistently got from Baker, even if he flashed eliteness fairly often in his time here. You can make up whatever narrative you want, but just like he didn't face one of the worst defenses in the league today, he wasn't a bad QB and is still above average for NFL QBs.

Rish, I have to ask you a question. If the Haslam's didn't care about wining, why would they give the OK to trade for DW spending all that money and knowing the heat he would bring with all that baggage? To me that's a sign JH wants to win. It's a legit ? and I have no axes to grind with you.

Chubb COULD be a finisher, but we all know KS doesn't use him on 3rd downs or important short yardage situations, he'd rather "keep the D honest" and chuck the ball downfield for an incompletion. I can only remember Myles dominating 1 game in his career, last year against the Bears. He did get a critical sack against TB12 to help with the win a couple games back, but otherwise his sacks come in like the 2nd or 3rd quarter where it doesn't make any significant difference.

Our window for success with the talent we do have is rapidly closing, at this point I say make a run for Sean Payton. We have the talent he would love to have, I just don't know if we have the capital to trade with NO to make it work.

You are asking questions to a guy who is a "glass half empty" person. Unless everything is perfect, it is doom and gloom.

In the realm of fans and this thread, he isn't a finisher.

DAYUM.

It wasn't meant to be an insult. It is what it is. I am not always a finisher. In my new 2K23 golf, if I am not playing well after 5-6 holes, I quit and start over. It costs me a golf ball and some reputation with my sponsors, but I am not going to grind through a crappy round.

We have a lot of finishers on this team. Just look at the facts. We have finished our season in 15 games this year. Our season IS finished.

I'm talking about players on this roster that show up in 4th
Q. When the game is on the line . I see too many players
That make plays for the 1st 2.5 q. Then poof they disappear
The remainder of the game.
This roster might have a bunch of Pro Bowl players
But sure has heck doesn't equate to playoff appearances

I'll try again despite 888 trying to start another fight w/his personal insults. Are you really going to tell me that Watson isn't a "finisher?" He was excellent in the clutch in many games. Teams were fighting to acquire him because he could "finish" games. They overlooked his off the field issues. As for the ignorant "hissy fit" comment, that has nothing to do w/"finishing" on the field. Tell me how he isn't a finisher. And we are talking about a "finisher" as it pertains on how one performs on the field. Let's not allow the Fabulous Baker Boys to change the context of what a "finisher" is.

I think we can turn those comments right around, and correctly so to pertain exactly as written and they work for Baker Mayfield.
Is anyone really going to tell me that Baker Mayfield isn't a finisher? He was excellent in the clutch in many games. Teams were fighting to ac@uire him because he cou... actually can still "finish" games. They overlooked his off the field issues, if there were any.
Baker is no longer on the Browns Watson is on the Browns now. Which one is better? I think they are neck and neck.
One played better this week.
We will never know if Baker would have led the Browns to a win over the saints this week.

I think Watson has shown in the past he can pull out 4th q. Wins
I'm not so sure his surrounding cast has alot of clutch performers
What I have noticed alot in the league this year is alot of teams
Simply cannot put teams away in the 2nd half
Teams are up by double digits and they let the leads slip away

I quoted this only to make a point here. Those who support Stefanski use this same excuse to support him. They find it a valid reason for him to stay on as HC. Those who generally support Baker don't agree with that.

Those who support Baker use it as an excuse as why he should have been kept on as the Browns QB. Those who use the very same excuse to support Stenfanski find it a silly argument when it's used to support Baker.

You couldn't make that crap up if you tried.

Using the excuse that mediocrity should be accepted by either one is a non starter.

I believe that you have missed the actual point, if not just for me - but of many others. Replacing Mayfield with an upgrade to the position was never the issue. Only a complete fool would think that Watson was not an upgrade considering past performance. The point then and now has always been the way the Browns handled the move, the character of the person they made the move for, Stefanski's handling of the injured QB, and the constant spew of hatred by an agenda driven person who hated Mayfield so much he left the forum for over a year. The same person that resorts to name calling and accusations of being agenda driven when he himself is the worst offender on the entire site.

Now the conversation has switched to where the blame really lies - the inept HC Stefanski. The fans here who are trying to carry on a spirited but respectful conversation about the shortcomings of the team and who's responsible is again being hijacked by the exact same person with the exact same reason he spits out to anyone who questions the Browns poorer season this year than last with his hatred driven agenda again. Though in another thread, the opportunity to upgrade the HC position with a higher quality person with no character issues for the Browns HC position has now become a supposed agenda driven attack. It's perfectly fine to go and upgrade the QB position with a better player with clear questionable ethic issues but when we have the opportunity to secure probably the one of the best HC's in the history of the Cleveland Browns, we get accused of driving an agenda created in the mind of the poster that was AWOL for over a year due to his hatred.

I am in total agreement; you can't make this crap up if you tried.


,

I'm not going to debate any of that with you. I'm simply pointing out that on many occasions I've heard each side of the debate use the excuse that "But he is the winningest 'fill in the blank' since the team returned in 1999." Then they dismiss that exact same reasoning when the other side uses it.

Does it go much deeper than that as you have described? Yes it most certainly does. That's just not a can of worms I'm going to help open in the Pure Football forum while the season is going on.

The actual point is this is a thread about Finishers. Not a thread about who likes Baker and who doesn't. You guys are like the plague.

So I take it you aren't giving your seal of approval on this thread like you did in the Franco Harris thread? We are truly devastated.

Lot's of "you' and "we" in your posts. The great Social Media bullying technique.

And how did you manage to make up that BS? Desperation is the only possibility. You mean like the "everyone can see" that you used? Mirrors can be helpful.

I think Haslam cares about winning. I don't think he prioritizes winning. There's a difference.

Other than practicing tackling (which is laughable), name one other thing Stefanski did to try and help the Browns win.

I have no doubt they all want to win, but I don't think they prioritize winning. This is obviously a difficult concept for many to grasp. I firmly believe Stefanski wants to win so badly calling plays that he prioritizes winning where he calls plays vs just winning.

Until this team consistently makes decisions that prioritize winning nothing will ever change.

And yes, I'm a glass half empty guy. We are 6-9 on our way to 6-11. I would love to be more glass half full, but I just don't see any silver linings. At the end of the day I only care about one thing...just win football games.

The last time you predicted this team would lose the rest of their games it cost you $50.

If that were the secret to winning and losing I'd bet every week and gladly lose.

I just want to win football games.

It's just a cautionary tale for those who may consider taking your predictions seriously.

Jeremiah Owusu Koramoah has not been as much of a finisher as he was hyped. Newsome and Emmerson were playing better even before J.O.K. got put on IR.

Just to be clear and on track with the theme of the thread - no-one has proven or even attempted to put a debatable point that Watson is a "Finisher" ... having multiple teams bid on a talented player doesn't make them a finisher. Having a barely above .500 record doesn't make them a finisher. Sitting out a year doesn't make them a finisher. No-one has ever questioned Watson as a much better QB than any other QB the Browns have had since 1999 ... that also does not make him a finisher. The idea that he is an "undisputed" finisher is not only wrong, it hasn't been supported in any way since the claim was made.

As for insults and fighting - I haven't read every post, but the first insult came in the veiled insult referring to a famous quote: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

No-one before that insulted anyone. There was no name calling. No Bullying and no crying victim. But since that non-football comment and post, the thread has literally gone to hell. One cancerous poster with an agenda and another thread derailed.