Its really amazing to consider this franchise has never won
The AFC NORTH. The only other sports franchise I can
Equate this to is the Pittsburgh Pirates. But the Pirates
Ownership refuses to spend money.
But the NFL is structured in a way teams can go
From lovers to division title winners in 1 season.
Yet the Browns keep on inventing ineptness.
Is this franchise really cursed or does the Blame lay
With the ownership and a front office that is clueless?

It's because we have a HC that has never finished higher than 3rd in the division capped with a last place finish this year. You can't continue to stay on the same path when your division mates are whooping on you with less talent. The difference is clearly leadership, and the Browns have yet to find a coach since their return that's been a leader and the results speak volumes.

The Browns have a lot of talent. It's hard to believe they didn't do much better this season.

Kinda sad that the worst team in football that had the #1 draft pick each of the last 2 seasons has made the playoffs this year while our Super Bowl contending Browns finished last in the AFC North. But hey, let's give the guy whose teams have gotten worse every year since he's been here another shot at turning it around. Is it any wonder why the Browns are the second losingest team in the NFL the last 50-years?

The lack of a good HC over the years is one big reason. The other is our lousy drafting since we've returned as I have spoken about recently. We have a 3rd round pick right now, Martin Emerson, that is playing better than most of the #1's we've drafted since our return. Think about that...

2nd??? who the heck is worse?
The saints? Falcons? Bucs? Cards right cards? < they were all pretty bad for a while .
who was it.

Who?

Maybe we don't have as much talent as you think OR it's not being used correctly!!!!!

Mostly because the other teams have better cultures

I don't think this team has as much talent as what is perceived
But talent is a small part of the equation when trying to win
Is the team mentally strong ?
Does it have high IQ football players ?
The Browns are last in the North every year for a reason

Between January 8, 1973 and January 8, 2023, the worst record by a team the last 50-years

Detroit Lions________783______311-468-4_____.400
Cleveland Browns____736______295-437-4_____.404
TB Buccaneers______ 742______299-442-1_____.404
Jacksonville Jaguars__450______189-261-0_____ .420
Houston Texans_____ 338______142-195-1_____ .422
Arizona Cardinals____783______ 333-445-5_____ .428
New York Jets_______784______ 335-447-2_____ .429
Atlanta Falcons______784______ 353-429-2_____ .452
Cincinnati Bengals___ 783______ 358-421-4_____ .460
Carolina Panthers____450______ 212-237-1_____ .472

Losing culture. Lack of leadership from the top on down. No identity and no clear vision from ownership. The Browns have tried the Football Guy, The Nerds, The Patriot Tree, The College Coach, The Up and Comer, etc..., it's throwing darts at dartboard. This leads to constant change because ownership, from Lerner to Haslam, had/have no defined plan or clue on how to build a winner or what that looks like. They're guessing.

The rest is just a by-product of the above.

And now even the Lions are on the way up

It is what it is;50 years of futility with only a couple of good seasons mixed in.

Probably because no team fires coaches and FO personnel more than the Browns do. Other teams stick w/their guys for the most part. They allow them to develop. The Browns think firing guys is the answer. We blame everything on the HC or the GM. Thus, schemes are dropped and new ones are implemented. The fan base and media are so excited about how the old guys were so dumb and the new guys are really smart. They disregard questions about the new guys and proclaim that "we have to give these guys time" to turn things around. They also blame everything on the previous regime while forecasting sunny days in our very near future. Rosters are overhauled because the new guys need their kind of players to make the new, exciting, and fundamentally sound systems to work. Meanwhile, implementing new schemes and overhauling the roster takes time, which sets us back even more.

Flash forward 2-3 years and the entire process begins yet again and fans are leff to ask why can't this franchise ever be successful?

It's the Merry Go Round of Misery.

And we have fans on this forum wanting to keep going on the same path that secured us last place in the AFC North with a Super Bowl contending team.

I agree, they should have stuck with the plan from the beginning of 202I.
That being to re up their franchise #I overall draft pick @b, and let him get healthy for this year and beyond.

Chubb, Peoples-Jones, Garrett, Amari Cooper,

With Cooper, Watson, and Chubb we should be legit contenders with even an average OL (and ours is supposed to be above that)

With the assets we’ve spent on defense (garrett, Ward, Newsome, JOK, Delpit) we shouldn’t be this bad either

Yet we were 7-10 with those exact same players on the team. So, either the other teams have to get worse, or the Browns have to get a whole lot better with a HC that has never finished higher than 3rd place in the division. The Lions have finished better than us as has the Jaguars, New England, NYGiants, Washington, Seattle and we had the same record as the lowly Carolina Panthers. Legit contender is a stretch with this FO and HC in charge. The proof is in the record. Every team is based on wins and losses and the Browns were last in the AFC North with those players listed on the roster. Most of them the last 2 years which resulted in losing records both years.

The other thing we don't do is develop talent.

How many players have we drafted over the past 5 years are significantly better than they were when we drafted them? I would say Chubb. Maybe Peoples-Jones. Many are not as good as they were perceived when we drafted them.

As I typed that I started to question, how many free agents have we signed that are as good or better after joining us than they were before? At the moment I cannot think of any.

How about players we have traded for? Teller for sure. Cooper is about the same but we have only had him for 1 season to try to ruin him.

The last time the Browns had a franchise QB they won the division 4 out of 5 years. We just had 6 games with our new franchise QB. Those 6 games were very important for our team in the fall of 2023. I think it was a very tough situation Deshaun put himself in and to his credit he did not make excuses. In the last 6 games he QB'ed this team in a new system than he has ever ran before, with players he has never played with before, players that have not played with him before either. This all coming after he missed all of 2021. Am I saying that now that he has a full off season, camps, voluntary workouts with teammates that the Browns are going to win the North next year. No! But I do expect them to challenge for it next year simply because next year he will easily be the best QB under center for the Browns since Bernie.

Now the other reason I think the Browns have not been winning division titles. Plain and simple run defense. For 20+ years trying to run against the Ravens and Steelers have always been like running against a wall. In the few games the Browns found ways to run against those teams they have beaten them. The run defense is the most fundamental part of defense. Shut down the run and put the offense in predictable plays where the defense can pin their ears back, send exotic blitzes, and most importantly keep both safeties in the secondary playing center field. This year teams rushed 488 times for 4.7 yards per carry. If the defense can at least hold opponents to 3 yards per carry they would have to throw the ball another 100 times and mostly in situations behind the sticks. How many more sacks would Garrett have had.

The Steelers (Big Ben), The Ravens (McNair, Lamar), The Bengals (Palmer, Burrow) have had better QB's than the Browns. They have also especially the Steelers and Ravens have had better defenses and specifically run defenses.

DeShaun will give us a franchise QB that matches up we just b=need to fix the run D and this Defense will improve.

It is interesting some of the points you make. I think stability is crucial and have pointed out teams, including the Browns who changes coaches and FO people frequently rarely succeed. GM's draft players and obviously 1st and 2nd rounders are critical, but I think nearly as important are teams' 3rd to 5th round picks. They usually take longer to develop and if you are constantly changing coaches/FO people, the new guys don't want their jobs reliant on the previous regime's players. So, many times, just when the later picks are starting to develop, the new guys get rid of them for their picks/acquisitions.

Mike Brown is ridiculed in Cincinnati, but the man is patient and loyal. Their fans complained about him keeping Marvin Lewis who was making the playoffs and winning division titles. Brown and Lewis finally parted ways and hired their current coach. I read their message boards and halfway through last year they wanted Taylor fired. Heck, even after them going to the SB last year, a good number of their posters wanted him gone when they started 0-2 this year. Now he has them poised to possibly go again.

I have no idea if KS is a good coach or AB is a good GM, but I have been waiting since 1969 to see the Browns just play in a SB, let alone win one. I am willing to wait a bit longer to see what can be done with this team and a few additions for next season.

Many of you guys are young enough to know the less stable franchises of the recent past so I will go back about 50 years. The Eagles in the late 60s to mid 70s prior to Dick Vermeil were horrible, changing coaches like undershirts. The Oilers from late 60s until Bum Phillips were also constantly changing coaches. The Steelers were just as big a joke as today's Browns until they hired Noll, who went 1-13, 5-9 & 6-8 first 3 seasons. That record wouldn't be tolerated today. The Saints from their first year (1966 I think) until about 1978 when they 8-8 went through a lot of coaches. Many times, the press, along with fan pressure is the final straw for an owner who "has to do something".

Again, I don't know if KS or AB or the answer, but fans always seem to be smarter than professional football coaches and FO people. The Browns certainly don't care what I think, and many here will disagree, but I am willing to go at least one more season. Many have said we just need a franchise QB, so maybe a full season to find out if Watson can be again will tell us all we need t know after next year.

Anyway, not trying to be confrontational, just my 2 cents.

Nice post and you make a lot of valid points I concur with. There is much to be said about stability. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in 19 years - stability - but they also have an excellent coach and FO. You made a valid point about Chuck Noll's first 3 years where that might not be tolerated today. The part I noticed though is even though the record was dismal, the team and their record improved each year of those first 3 years. As an owner, you might be inclined to stay with the HC if improvement is occurring each year. The Browns, however, have not been doing that under the leadership of Berry and Stefanski. They have never finished higher than 3rd place in the AFC North and finished all alone in last place this year after finishing tied for last in 2021. The real kicker though is they went from 11 wins to 8 wins to 7 wins the last 3 years. That is not a team that is improving under the guidance of Berry and Stefanski - it's a team that is failing and getting worse each year even with the heavy investment in skill players.

Stability is important but so is improvement and winning. Keeping a stable FO and HC while losing more and not improving is a recipe for disaster. Welcome to your Cleveland Browns.

I think one thing not mentioned is the Browns instability
At QB over the years. Every QB that has taken a snap
Since 1999, his end result is failure.
Even with DeShawn Watson as the QB for the next several
Seasons it's not a given that he lead this franchise
To a division title. He doesn't look like the same QB
That he was In Houston. I don't see the swag or
Confidence. And here's the kicker. Is Watson
Really motivated to win? He's gotten paid. He is
Set for life.

I've seen in this league teams that replace the HC and
Staff after a losing season and go to the playoffs
The next year. The Dolphins and Jags did it.
The Vikings replaced HC and the GM and won
The division this year.the Giants replaced HC and GM
And boom playoffs.

Some teams make the playoffs in year 3 under their HC
Brandon Staley and Zac Taylor.

Stefanski will be retained for this year but it's on
A very short leash. Any kind of slow start will
Doom him. And Berry needs to be put on notice.
His drafting is very porous and now he has to
Find immediate playmakers in the middle rds
Not developmental picks.
He has to find football players that put team above anything
Else.

Last but not least. This team will have a hard
Time attracting free agents that are in the great to
Elite level. It will have to overpay for average free agents

I’d think njoku is one of the few players who we hav successfully developed. Maybe DPJ too

I know everyone wants to blame Haslam and rightfully so, but the Browns have the second worst record in the NFL the last 50-years - not just the last 10 with Haslam. This poor showing isn't just during Haslam's ownership - it's been going on for 50-years. Finding the right combination of FO and HC is the key - it's just taking the Browns longer than anyone else except for the Lions. Of course, even the Lions had a better record than the Browns this year. If it isn't right, then you have to change it until you do get it right. It's only been 50-years - right?

The 50 years doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is this year.

I don't think if we had won a few superbowls 25 years ago that everything would be OK. Even you mitigate the Lions by saying they had a better record this year.
No doubt things need to change but to hold 50 years of history against the current people isn't a point at all.

I guess it was missed that Milk posted that the Browns have the second worst record in the NFL for the 10-years of Haslam ownership. Maybe I missed you pointing out to him that we only care about this year's team too. My point was simple, Haslam might be an awful team owner, but the Browns record over the last 50-years is the exact same as Haslam's. Now that might not be the point you want stressed today, but it does show that mediocrity didn't start with Haslam's ownership and keeping Stefanski on after his dismal performance the last 2-years isn't going to change that trend. Hah, I see they've already claimed their scapegoat for this season. It'll be interesting to find out what quality of a DC they can find knowing they have to review their game plans every week with the analytics dept.

You were making a point about 50 years

I didn't say anything about 10 years, but even that gets to be out of focus. The last 2-3, I agree, things need to start showing up. We have been through the rebuild, the players seem to be here, we are told the window is open, it's time to prove there actually is a window of opportunity.

If i was haslam, i would keep fanski one more season. I would also tie Berry to his hip and tell them upfront that unless something totally from out of left field happens, it's playoffs or out the door for them.

It wouldn't be understood. It wouldn't be insinuated. It would flat out be told in a face to face meeting with the two of them. It's sink or swim for both.

Defense wins Championships. And a great defense trumps a great offense most every time.

A high powered offense is great, but a great defense is more important, I'd rather win 6-3 than lose 30-27

Because we've never had a franchise QB since the return.

/Thread

This is pretty accurate as well. Watson is supposedly that guy, so let’s hope it’s the case

I'm here also - with the exception of trying to get Sean Payton. If I could get S.P. - Stefanski would be Goneski. Barring the ability to get Sean Payton - I give KS one more year and it's exactly as you spelled out. And frankly backing into the playoffs on the last game of the season and losing in the Wild Card game would be also be a goneski event for both.

The issue with Sean Payton - which I didn't realize till recently - he is essentially owned by New Orleans. Any team that wants to have him as their HC will need to compensate New Orleans - and what I read the other day inferred it would be a minimum of a 1st round pick to land him. So he isn't going to be a Brown.

Yesterday's repeat performance that mirrored the worst of Stefanki's issues throughout his tenure here really has me leaning slightly more to letting him go than keeping him --- but you have to replace him with someone better and I don't know who that would be. ESPN had a really interesting / fun piece (link below) highlighting some of the top HC candidates this offseason. It's been updated since to reflect some changes - but has a short coach bio on a few guys and I am not really interested in any of them. So keep KS and give him 1 more year.

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/s...make-your-pick-texans-lions-falcons-jobs

* Interesting they didn't have all those teams listed the other day - they also had different head coach candidates like Jim Harbaugh was listed. Not sure what's changed.

I would do exactly what we’re doing as well (and maybe I’d find a new ST coordinator .. I’m on the fence with that one).

My assumption is that we had better see an uptick in execution, discipline, and W’s obviously. If we are under .500 next year we’ll be looking for a new coach

Um, the Browns ended in 1995. It doesn’t matter what their records were before Cleveland was awarded an expansion team. Yes, the Browns have sucked since the expansion team was created.

First off, the term “franchise quarterback” is meaningless. Every team looks for players, especially QBs, that can lead the offense. The problem lies in judging talent in that QB and the players assembled around them. How many people clamored for Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold before Baker was drafted? If an organization is not correctly assembled the end result will be the same.

Second, no one gets to know what would have happened. Baker’s issues can be seen from his overall performance this year. Which is also irrelevant to the way the Browns played.

The only rebuttal I have to not having a FQB is this: say we drafted Mahomes or Allen, I bet they’d stink here anyways lol. It’s a two way street

Here's a list of current candidates for NFL HC positions

Dan Quinn - Dallas Cowboys defensive coordinator - Pitching up in Dallas could not have gone much better for Dan Quinn and the task of repairing a reputation partially dented when he was fired as Atlanta Falcons head coach in 2022.

Jim Harbaugh: Head coach, Michigan - As head coach of the 49ers, Harbaugh went 44-19-1, made the playoffs three of his four seasons and made it to the Super Bowl in 2012.

DeMeco Ryans - San Francisco 49ers defensive coordinator - His defense ranks first in points per game, yards per game, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, first downs per game and touchdown-interception ratio.

Sean Payton - Former New Orleans Saints head coach - The Super Bowl champion who steered Drew Brees to NFL quarterbacking royalty will accompany Quinn at the top of most wishlists having led the Saints to winning records in 10 of his 15 seasons in charge, secured a playoff berth in nine and transformed the New Orleans offense into one of the most potent and consistent in the league.

Ejiro Evero - Denver Broncos defensive coordinator - The Broncos may have a star on their hands, floating amid the woes of Hackett's wreckage. A British-born star on course for a top job, or top job contention at the very least. Evero has tempered a hobbling offense on the brink of total shutdown with success as one of the most productive defenses in the league to propel him among head coaching murmurs.

Shane Steichen - Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator - The ascent of Jalen Hurts from unconvincing rookie to sophomore superstar has reflected glowingly on Eagles offensive coordinator Shane Steichen, who had earned his role in Philly by way of overseeing the 2020 Chargers offense in which Herbert played his way to Offensive Rookie of the Year.

Jonathan Gannon - Philadelphia Eagles defensive coordinator - Jonathan Gannon's defense leads the NFL in sacks, interceptions, while ranking second in total yards allowed per game - a nifty return for a coach that has been called out for lacking aggression.

Jerod Mayo - New England Patriots inside linebackers coach - The Patriots' Jerod Mayo secret is out. If it ever was a secret. Those inside the building will have long vouched for the head coach credentials of the 36-year-old, who has been integral to restoring a stifling Bill Belichick defense of previous years.

Leslie Frazier - Buffalo Bills defensive coordinator - Leslie Frazier is likely to prove the most experienced option among this coming cycle's candidates with 24 years of NFL coaching behind him at the age of 63. A decade on since being fired as Minnesota Vikings head coach he directs a Buffalo Bills defense that has the second most interceptions in the league since his appointment in 2017.

Ben Johnson - Detroit Lions offensive coordinator - Ben Johnson's offense is partly to thank for that, his 'make yourself at home' message to Jared Goff with a perfectly-tailored system offering similarities to that which he led in college having reinvigorated a written-off quarterback while elevating Detroit's attack among the most entertaining in the league.

Frank Smith - Miami Dolphins offense coordinator - Frank Smith is a wildcard shout here, whose time is more likely to come a year from now, a few years from now, but you might be naive to ignore the potential.

Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy and Cowboys offensive coordinator Kellen Moore have become recurring names on the coaching cycle in recent years as they work towards top jobs, former Colts head coach Reich is likely to come into consideration after his midseason firing, Giants defensive coordinator 'Wink' Martindale has boosted his stock through his blitz-heavy scheme in New York, Seattle Seahawks offensive coordinator Shane Waldron has played a part in one of the stories of the season with Geno Smith and Los Angeles Rams defensive coordinator Raheem Morris remains highly-regarded despite the team's post-Super Bowl slump.

You are entitled to your subjective opinion, but I think it is false. Wildly false.

I am not going to go through a long list and it is a long list, but I'll throw a few out.

You said "Maybe Peoples-Jones." Maybe? He was a 6th round pick, right.

How about Teller who was a nobody in Buffalo.

Did Jacoby improve while he was here?

Njoku?

Bitonio hasn't developed?

Cooper was better here than he was in Dallas last year.

Hell, your boy Baker got better after Stefanski arrived and regressed after he left here.

Ward had "developed" into one of the best corners in the league even though this board disrespects him.

Chubb was a 2nd round pick. I think he improved in Stefanski's offense.

Did we ruin Conklin?

How about Pocic? He stunk in Seattle. Now, he is graded as one of the best by PFF.

--Has Myles developed into one of the very best in the NFL? I know there were high expectations, but many fail. Myles is a legit Defensive Player of the Year candidate every year.

Yet we still can't win or get out of the AFC North basement.

I don't really think about Peyton because of the 1st rounder attached. We don't have one, I don't think NO would welcome the idea of one 3 years from now, and I am not sure I would want to trade a pick for a coach in the first place. At most that is a maybe.

1. Hoping for Mayo to be hired as DC.
2. Make AVP OC and play caller.
3. Keep Priefer.
4. Sign some decent WRs in FA - Offense needs more speed and quickness.

5. Get rid of the F-in Evil F-in Elf. The Browns are cursed until they do so.

Name one HC the Browns have fired since 1999 that went on to be a successful HC in the NFL for another team? I understand your reasoning. The problem is that in the case of the Browns it holds zero merit in terms of HC's. I would say the actual problem is the Browns have sucked at hiring HC's.

Any HC or GM that the Browns fired in the past were
Fired for justification. Even John Dorsey has been unable
To land a GM gig since he was fired by the Browns
And I consider him the best GM since the return
Farmer sucked as GM. Heckert and Kokinis were skirt chasers
Sashi was a embarrassment as GM.
HC wise the Browns never the got the best candidate at that
Time. It was always the 2nd or 3rd or 4th

John Dorsey failed to get another GM gig because he plain out sucked at the job. Twice fired - yeah awesome.

In fact, all of those you mentioned sucked and should never have been hired as GMs for the Browns to begin with.

Don't forget the Joe Banner/Mike Lombardi circus. Banner was one creepy ass cracker.

This right here - Truth.

I get consistency and giving people time - I can't believe it but I wanted HUE to get more time and was happy we didn't can him after two seasons... because I bought all the reasons people are saying Stefanski should get another year. Sure - Stefanski's record is night and day to Hue's but we also have a much better roster.

So the truth is - when you look at all our head coaches most of which had posters/fans campaigning that they needed time and hiring/firing was the issue. . . . we had the wrong people in place. Consistency and giving people more time only work when you have the right people on board. Using Belichick as an example is distorting things - the reality is that none of the head coaches we have cycled thru since the return have gone on to be successful anywhere else. That is some indication the decisions were CORRECT. We gonna have to wait 1 more year to find out about Stefanski. Lordy I hope so many with grave reservations are flat wrong.

Was that necessary? Do we have to open every old wound on Pack-it-in Monday??

And do you mean creepy-ass cracker, creepy ass-cracker... or both?

j/c:

The "truth" is often lost when qualifiers are put into the equation. You know, like "since 1999." Well Bill Belichick has turned out to be the best HC of all-time, yet our local media and large portion of the fan base wanted him fired and thought he was a bumbling idiot. Another qualifier is when you limit to "head coaches." Nevermind that Shannahan, Bruce Arians, and Brian Daboll were all despised by our brilliant fans and local media and have since went on to have great careers. But qualifiers are great when you want to win an argument. It's like saying it doesn't rain a lot in Seattle and some dude calls you out by saying "did it rain on July 23rd of this year?"

100% dead on. Fired Browns HCs have not been a successful HC for any other organization. That goes to show you the vastly subpar HCs the Browns hire. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Stefanski has had arguably the most talented Browns players a coach has had since 1999. It is a HCs job to get them to play as a Team. The Browns have a lot of talented individuals but not a talented Team that knows who to consistently win year after year.

Here is the thing. Pit quoted me, but he asked me a question about only Head Coaches. I never said that. I said coaches and FO personnel. If y'all can't see that changing schemes due to new coaches and overhauling rosters due to new FO personnel, may God bless you.

It's called details instead of generalizations. Those are the facts, not what-ifs and what-abouts. It makes in no less of a truth. The discussion as based around Head Coaches specifically and not Offensive Coordinators

Which of these former Head Coaches, since Bill Belichick went onto greatness?

Name League Years Regular Season Records Playoff Records Combined Records

Freddie Kitchens NFL 2019 6-10-0 (0.375) 0-0-0 (0.000) 6-10-0 (0.375)
Gregg Williams NFL 2018* 5-3-0 (0.625) 0-0-0 (0.000) 5-3-0 (0.625)
Hue Jackson NFL 2016 - 2018 3-36-1 (0.088) 0-0-0 (0.000) 3-36-1 (0.088)
Mike Pettine NFL 2014 - 2015 10-22-0 (0.313) 0-0-0 (0.000) 10-22-0 (0.313)
Rob Chudzinski NFL 2013 4-12-0 (0.250) 0-0-0 (0.000) 4-12-0 (0.250)
Pat Shurmur NFL 2011 - 2012 9-23-0 (0.281) 0-0-0 (0.000) 9-23-0 (0.281)
Eric Mangini NFL 2009 - 2010 10-22-0 (0.313) 0-0-0 (0.000) 10-22-0 (0.313)
Romeo Crennel NFL 2005 - 2008 24-40-0 (0.375) 0-0-0 (0.000) 24-40-0 (0.375)
Terry Robiskie NFL 2004* 1-4-0 (0.200) 0-0-0 (0.000) 1-4-0 (0.200)
Butch Davis NFL 2001 - 2004 24-35-0 (0.407) 0-1-0 (0.000) 24-36-0 (0.400)
Chris Palmer NFL 1999 - 2000 5-27-0 (0.156) 0-0-0 (0.000) 5-27-0 (0.156)

I understand. However, he quoted me and then asked a question that I never once brought up. I am not disputing the fact that no HCs have went on to have great success since we came back in 1999. But, I never once said otherwise. Pit has a habit of turning one's words around to start a fight and you fell right into the trap. If you wanna call me out, please at least refute what I actually said and not some invented BS that I never once claimed.

The truth is that a lot of posters and fans thought Shanny was an awesome OC. People soured on him because he was trying to be the HC. That's been mentioned several times and yet here you are regurgitating this falicy again. I can't comment on Arians or Daboll... I don't remember any sentiment either way. Many DID want Arians as HC when he stated he wanted the job.

No, that is not the truth. He was said to not be a "team player" and we would be a lot better off w/Flip because "they would all be on the same page." Wanna wager?

John Dorsey is about to begin his 3rd year with the Detroit Lions...that team that was one of the worst in the NFL but have improved over the last couple of years and are in the playoffs this year. As far as Dorsey landing another GM job...he ran out of time, being 60 yrs old when the Browns fired him and the Lions were looking for a younger GM, hiring Brad Holmes, who was 20 yrs younger than Dorsey.

But Dorsey did for the Lions what he had done as GM with the Chiefs and Browns, helping to improving the talent level of the Lions and helping to build Lions into a playoff caliber team.

When the Chiefs hired Andy Reid as their HC, most knew that eventually Reid would take over as GM..that is simply how Reid works the best...having full control. It was more about giving Reid all the power he wanted as long as the Chiefs were winning. Then with the Browns, Dorsey was faced with an owner who believes that analytics is all that is needed to get the Browns to the Super Bowl.

Dorsey is "old school" and he does his best when working with franchises that have similar beliefs. The Lions will be in the playoffs while the Browns will be at home again, watching other teams compete for a shot at playing in the Super Bowl.

You forgot to mention the Browns will be watching from the basement again as they watch other teams compete as they, again sit in the basement. Hopefully they have some windows down in the basement

Might get a glimmer of light

Nah ! what was I thinking !?

With all due respect, I think the "basement" and "last place" thing have been overdone by a couple of guys who are still upset about Baker being canned. The Browns play in a very strong division and in a superior conference. Detroit won two more games than we did. Tampa Bay won their division while winning one more game than us and we beat them head-to-head.

Yesterday, Berry noted that are a lot of teams in that 7 to 10 victory range. That's very true and a few good breaks or bad breaks are the difference. This team is not nearly as bad as some say they are.

Every single team in the NFL is giving the same speech at their post season press conference. We play in a strong division and a superior conference but a break here and a break there and we would have been a playoff team.

You say Detroit only had 2 more wins, but I guarantee you that if you go to the Lions board, you'd find out that a) the fans are saying a bad break here and a bad break there cost us a playoff spot and b) the FO and HC are saying they are actually better than they showed and left 2-3 victories out there they should have won.

New England, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Washington, Green Bay, Carolina, New Orleans, and Atlanta were all 1 victory somewhere in their season from making the playoffs. Every one of those teams are saying the exact same thing the Browns gave yesterday at their press conference. The hard reality is that for them and the Browns, your success is based on your play on the field and the wins and losses generated from that play. Every team in the NFL plays "what if" every off season - there's nothing special about the Browns season except they did finish in last place and that's not being overdone - it's a freaking fact attributed to the HC and team's performance.

Actually, I would have been more impressed with Berry and Stefanski if they would have been honest with the press and admit that they had a very poor season and that it was unacceptable for a Cleveland Browns team. That this team has a lot of work to do this off season to get us to the point where we will be a contender for the division championship that we have NEVER won. That Berry would have said that he was having meetings with the coaches and Stefanski with the players and starting today that they are going to right the ship. Instead, we get that there are a lot of teams in that 7-10 victory range. You know what else there is, after the 2022 season, there's only 7 teams in the entire NFL with back-to-back losing seasons and one of those is our Cleveland Browns.

Here's a couple of stats to chew on:
The NFC has won 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls

Which is the superior conference:
2021: 80 games played interconference, AFC 40 wins - NFC 40 wins
2022: 80 games played interconference, AFC 40 wins - NFC 40 wins

AFC Conference Record:
2021 Cleveland Browns ranked 11th - 5-7-0 .417
2022 Cleveland Browns ranked 14th - 4-8-0 .333 (only teams with a worse AFC Conference record: #15 Houston 3-8-1 .292, #16 Denver 3-9-0 .250)

One thing to keep in mind about the standings is we have a poster on here who likes to talk about how we haven't finished above 3rd place in the last three years. He fails to mention that in one of those years, we beat the the Steelers 2 out 3 times, including a win in a playoff game. Nope, no mention of that. It's just "the Browns finished in 3rd place.

What is the barometer of success with this franchise?
How is success being measured over the years. ?
The best this franchise has ever accomplished is beating
The Steelers in the playoffs 3 seasons ago.
I think alot of fans are still celebrating that win.
But that win was nothing more than a flash. The Browns
For one day were relevant.
Since then this franchise is average at the very best.
It failed to use that Steelers playoff win as a vehicle
To propel foward to greater achievements
Right now the Browns have to figure how to become relevant

vers...it's time for some to stop the "sugar coating" exercises and be honest about what the Browns are...the Browns are last in our division thanks to a 7-10 W-L record. For every team in the NFL, the bottom line is "the same"... your team is what their record says they are.

Some teams might attempt to paint a picture straight out of the fantasy world, by claiming that their team is better than the record indicates and imo, the Cleveland franchise falls into that category. But for some reason, the Browns can't stop "losing"..! The Browns W-L record indicates that the team is on a gradual decline, finishing dead last to the AFC North this season.

Reality bites and I take no pride in my Browns being the 'worst' team in the AFC North and being called 'losers'..!

Time for ownership, management and the coaching staff to face reality and how each of them played a part in building the 2022 team into what they are...last in the AFC North and losers of 10 games during the 2022 season.

mac, I will post what I want. You do not have the authority to tell me what I can and can't post. You can put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to say.

Two things, he wasn't a HC and the Browns didn't technically fire him, but Shanahan is doing a pretty good job in SF. I"d love to have him back....

So, you're of the mindset that as long as we beat Pittsburgh it doesn't mean a thing that we actually finished in 3rd place. Heck, we beat Pittsburgh once this year too so that makes the whole year successful and has no bearing on the fact we finished in last place in the division - WE BEAT PITTSBURGH! Never mind that we had the 3rd worst record in the entire AFC (4-8) in conference games - we beat Pittsburgh.

You can spin it any way you want but it doesn't change the fact that the Browns performance on the field has resulted in no finish better than 3rd place the last 3 years and actually last place this year. The Browns are also the only team in the division to have never won the AFC North. HC's resumes are built on win and losses not "what ifs." The playoff you want recognized is a distant past as the Browns have gotten continually worse since that time - that's fact and a reality you refuse to accept. Heck, Pittsburgh finished higher than us in the standings this year playing a rookie QB with a 3rd of the talent the Browns have on offense. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in 19-years, and you want credit for beating them twice in one year as we wallow continually in the bottom half of the AFC North?

Hey, ok, the Cleveland Browns achieved only their second winning season in the last 18 years when they went to the playoffs in the 2020 season and had a 1-1 playoff record. The Browns abruptly returned to their losing ways posting losing seasons in 2021 and 2022. Two winning seasons now in the last 20-years but we beat Pittsburgh.

Sometimes I actually wish the Browns kept their name when they moved from Cleveland to Baltimore. But I haven’t lived in the Cleveland area for years so it’s easy for me to say that.

What?!

Bill Belichick head coach of the Cleveland Browns in 1991 - 1995. Fired by Art Modell.

How about Marty Schottenheimer? He only has the 8th highest number of wins as a HC in NFL history. 205 wins to be exact.

Sometimes….just…sometimes. Like I say I haven’t lived in the Cleveland area since I joined the Navy. I’d have been a loyal fan wherever the Browns were located. I would have felt bad for the local fans and I hated Modell even before he moved the team. And I hate the rats now but I wouldn’t have if they kept the Browns name.

Are you Pit's brother. I didn't imply any of that. I pointed out that you completely ignore it and just state that we finished 3rd in the division. Let me channel you for a minute.....So, you are saying winning 12 games while reaching the playoffs and beating your biggest rival in the playoffs is meaningless and finishing 3rd in the division during the regular season is all that matters. LOL

The rival doesn't mean squat - that's only 2 out of 17 games that need to be played. We can lose every game to the Steelers as far as I'm concerned if we win the other 15. I'm also not saying that the win against Pittsburgh wasn't exciting - it was just that. I'm also saying that we limped into the playoffs losing 2 of the final 4 games (including a NYJets loss) and needing Miami to lose and the Browns to beat the Steelers backups in week 17 as the Division winning Steelers rested most of their starters. The eventual win resulted in a 3rd place finish with a playoff bid and then the Browns failed to build on that rare feat the next season as they suffered a losing season in 2021 and another one in 2022.

Yes, the won/loss record is the only thing that matters. As the great HC Vince Lombardi said: “Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while… you don't do things right once in a while… you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.”

After all the HC's we've had since 1999 you had to reach back almost 30 years to try and make a point. Since that time there have been 12 Browns HC's. If you think having to reach back almost 30 years and 13 HC's ago is some positive in trying to prove your point, you should be able to see the desperation of that. A record of 1-13 in your theory isn't a positive in case you missed it.

How many fans weren't supporting Marty again when he was fired? As I recall most fans were outraged when he was fired.

No but if my parents were still alive I might be requesting they adopt him.

No what people are saying is that when every season since then the W/L record has regressed you can't keep leaning on what a HC accomplished three years ago. You're welcome. You don't seem to be able to channel Steve very well.

The Browns/Steelers rivalry doesn't mean squat? LMAO

1-12. One out of 13.

Like I said, the other 15 games are more important - losing twice to the Steelers doesn't mean squat if we win the other 15. On the other side, beating the Steelers twice does not make a good season if you're losing the other 15. Thus - the Steelers games don't mean squat if you still have a losing record. Laugh all you want - we still finished in last place even with the coveted Steelers win. How'd that work out for the team record?

No kidding? Sheesh. But don't tell Browns fans that the rivalry doesn't matter.

It matter for two games a year. Not for the other 15 games on the schedule.

And beating the Steelers does not constitute a successful season with a losing record.

Who said otherwise?

Reality is, the Browns are what their record says they are...7 wins..10 losses.

It's nit-picky, but technically Belichick was fired by Baltimore, not Cleveland.

Another one of Art's brilliant decisions.

Just read AFC NORTH titles

Steelers 9
Bengals 6
Ravens 6
Browns 0.

That's really eye opening

Agreed. You can trace the beginning of the downward spiral of our Browns to Art Modell especially because of his alleged meddling. However, there has been enough time, GM's and Coaches to right the ship since then. All have failed up to this point.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...super-.bowl-with-champion-chiefs-at-top/

2024 Super Bowl odds: An early look at who's favored for next year's Super Bowl, with champion Chiefs at top.

It's early in the process for every team but it's never too early to start taking a look at who may find themselves playing in Super Bowl LVIII out in Las Vegas this time next year.

The Browns are listed with 17th best odds overall to win Super Bowl.

The Browns are listed with the 10th best odds to win the AFC.

The Browns are listed with the 3rd best odds to win the AFC North.

The odds makers already know we have Watson under contract so there must be another reason for the poor odds.

AFC Odds with overall Super Bowl champion ranking:
Kansas City (1)
Buffalo (3)
Cincinnati (5)
LA Chargers (7)
Jacksonville (8)
Miami (10)
NY Jets (11)
Baltimore (15)
Las Vegas Raiders (16)
Cleveland Browns (17)
Denver (18)
New England (20)
Pittsburgh (23)
Tennessee (25)
Indianapolis (28)
Houston (32)

Odds aren't static.

Dead link.

Would be interested in knowing the actual odds and not just "ranking".

Odds makers' don't care who you have under contract. Futures odds not only have to fit into certain algorithms, they are much more a reflection of betting tendencies than actual talent from team to team.

Yup.

Art Modell has nothing to do with this. He moved his team to Baltimore. The only thing this team has in common with his team is the name. This team started as an expansion team in 1999. Everything related to "this team" has nothing to do with "that team".

The Browns and Broncos are +4500.

The link can be used by clicking NFL at the top of the page and the article is highlighted on the right. It's just an article that I posted for your review that's showing the Browns are not being thought of as a contender at this point even with Watson on the roster. Not my opinion, just an outside source pointing out the early betting lines and thoughts in Vegas.

Always interesting to see the opening lines...

Vegas puts the Browns firmly in the second tier (with most of the pack).

As usual, most of the previous season's playoff participants are right at the top (most expensive) -- because that what early gamblers want to throw down on.


Always some strange anomalies. The Vikings finished 13-3 with odds paying better than the Browns... the Lions finished behind them at 9-8 and are 13 spots higher on the odds charts. Maybe nobody ever bets on the Vikings...


2024 SUPER BOWL ODDS

Kansas City Chiefs +550

San Francisco 49ers +600

Buffalo Bills +650

Philadelphia Eagles +800

Cincinnati Bengals +900

Dallas Cowboys +1600

Los Angeles Chargers +2200

Jacksonville Jaguars +2800

Detroit Lions +3000

Miami Dolphins +3500

Green Bay Packers +3500

New York Jets +3500

Los Angeles Rams +3500

New York Giants +3500

Baltimore Ravens +3500

Las Vegas Raiders +4000

Cleveland Browns +4500

Denver Broncos +4500

New Orleans Saints +5000

New England Patriots +5000

Tampa Bay Buccaneers +5000

Minnesota Vikings +5000

Pittsburgh Steelers +5000

Seattle Seahawks +5500

Tennessee Titans +7000

Carolina Panthers +7000

Washington Commanders +7000

Indianapolis Colts +8000

Atlanta Falcons +8000

Arizona Cardinals +10000

Chicago Bears +10000

Houston Texans +12500


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-super-bowl-with-champion-chiefs-at-top/

Other than getting people who like to gamble to spend money, it's probably not wise to evaluate the chances of any team before free agency and the draft take place.

It's certainly not wise. These opening lines put out right after the SB remind me of the first mock drafts we see. There may not be much movement in the top three or four, but after that it will change a lot as time goes on. I mean as it stands the Raiders don't even have a QB and they're rated above the Browns. Last I saw it was Landry Jones. How does that make any sense?

Interesting read about NFL team odds.

https://www.ksla.com/2022/09/04/6-charts-reveal-need-to-know-stats-about-nfl-preseason-odds/

2023 NFL offseason: Sean Payton's Broncos among five teams poised to make a major leap next season
A look at which teams could be on the upswing next season

By Cody Benjamin

The 2022 NFL season is in the books after the Chiefs won their second Lombardi Trophy in four years Sunday night. Now, it's time to look ahead to the 2023 offseason. We don't yet know which big names will be relocating via trade or free agency, and we don't yet know which teams will swipe the hottest prospects in April's draft. But we can still make educated guesses as to which clubs are best positioned to take real steps forward next season.

Here are five early picks to make a major leap in 2023:

Bears
2022 record: 3-14

We're a little hesitant to hurl flowers at a regime that willfully ignored Justin Fields' dire supporting cast going into 2022, but this time around, with so much cap space at his disposal, general manager Ryan Poles would have to try to avoid improving the young quarterback's lineup. Fields was MVP-level electric as a second-year player, even while coach Matt Eberflus continued to risk injury to the QB in the name of late-season pride. As long as Fields' protection and weapons improve in the slightest, there's no reason to think Chicago can't play spoiler out of the NFC North. Eberflus' young defense also can't be much worse.

Broncos
2022 record: 5-12

You don't get much more uninspired than the "offense" produced by Nathaniel Hackett and Russell Wilson in 2022. The latter remains, but if anyone's going to force the ex-Seahawks star back into form, it'll be Sean Payton, whose public conviction as their new head coach is backed by a been-there, done-that resume. Wilson, by the way, can't be anymore sluggish than he was under Hackett; assuming he's rightly re-saddled to more run-heavy, play-action scripts featuring a healthier Javonte Williams, Denver's still got the foundational pieces on defense to keep pace with the Chargers and Raiders in the AFC West.


Colts
2022 record: 4-12-1

This team's QB carousel finally spun itself into pieces, so GM Chris Ballard is primed to focus on a longer-term investment under center, especially with the No. 4 overall draft pick in tow. Regardless of which prospect ends up on their radar -- Ohio State's C.J. Stroud and Kentucky's Will Levis look like logical targets, assuming Alabama's Bryce Young is gone -- they're also set to return to the comfy tradition of trading offensive coordinators with the Eagles. The chief play-caller for a flexible Philly offense that saw Jalen Hurts emerge as an MVP threat, new coach Shane Steichen should have enough Pro Bowl-caliber playmakers across the board (i.e. Jonathan Taylor, Michael Pittman Jr., DeForest Buckner) to restore hope in an open AFC South.

Jets
2022 record: 7-10

The narrative surrounding New York -- just a QB away! -- has been repeated so often that we're growing a little wary of its truth. Their O-line, for example, remains a question mark. And the new offensive coaching pairing of Nathaniel Hackett and Todd Downing only sounds intriguing if the inevitable QB addition is a whopper, like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson. Then again, even a lesser name like Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo is probably capable of getting this club over .500. In a division where the Patriots are still retooling and the Dolphins are banking on Tua Tagovailoa's availability, their young talent at so many spots -- running back, wide receiver, pass rusher, cornerback -- suggests they really can be a contender with a top-15 signal-caller.

Rams
2022 record: 5-12

You might call this a copout considering they were Super Bowl champions just a year ago, but then again ... was it only a year ago?! So much went wrong for L.A. in 2022 that GM Les Snead could actually be in seller's mode (!) to recoup much-needed assets for whatever time they have left with Sean McVay at the helm. With the McVay-Matthew Stafford combo back, however, and the O-line presumably in better health along with No. 1 wideout Cooper Kupp, it's hard to think they won't be back in the mix in the NFC West, where the Cardinals, 49ers and Seahawks all have different but major question marks at QB.

NFL Power Rankings: Chiefs sit atop post-Super Bowl list as three AFC teams land in top four
In his final Power Rankings, Pete Prisco says the Chiefs are officially a dynasty -- and there's no denying it
By Pete Prisco

Late Sunday night, filled with joy from another Super Bowl victory, I asked Kansas City Chiefs defensive end Frank Clark if his organization was now considered a dynasty, with two Super Bowl victories in four years and three appearances.

He didn't bite.

He wouldn't say it. Nor would quarterback Patrick Mahomes, who won his second Super Bowl MVP and second ring in five years.

"I'm not going to say dynasty yet, we're not done," Mahomes said.

They won't say it, so I will: The Chiefs are a dynasty.

After rallying from 10 down at the half -- scoring 17 fourth-quarter points -- to beat the Philadelphia Eagles in a thrilling 38-35 victory, there is no other way to describe this team. Two titles in four years and three Super Bowl appearances in that same time makes them a dynasty.

Not a dynasty in the 1950s Cleveland Browns way, but a dynasty of the modern game, where free agency and a salary cap can eat a team alive.


This isn't one of those teams.

That's because of coach Andy Reid and Mahomes, the best coach-quarterback combination in the game. With Mahomes reinjuring his right ankle Sunday night, it looked like the Chiefs were in trouble. But instead, it was Mahomes lighting up the Eagles' vaunted defense -- the top-ranked pass defense in the league -- in the second half. He completed 13 of his 14 passes in the second half with two touchdowns.

But it was the way he did it that impressed. With his mobility limited some, it was the great scheming by Reid that produced the two second-half touchdowns. They got both on return-motion plays that had guys wide open. They were easy throws for Mahomes, made easy by Reid's brilliant offensive mind.

But it's Mahomes who makes this team a dynasty. The Chiefs traded away Tyreek Hill before the season and the offense evolved. Mahomes became more patient, became a better passer. That showed up Sunday night.

In five seasons, Mahomes now has five division titles, two regular-season MVPs, two Super Bowl MVPs and the two rings. On paper, the Eagles were the better team, but Mahomes was the great equalizer.

It's always that way with franchise quarterbacks. That's why the Chiefs end the season as the top-ranked team in my Power Rankings and will be No. 1 going into next season. Sustainable success comes from having "that" guy at quarterback.

The problem is the AFC is loaded with those guys. There is Josh Allen in Buffalo and Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. There is Justin Herbert with the Chargers and Trevor Lawrence on his way in Jacksonville. Those four teams will all be relevant in 2023 because of their quarterback.


But the best plays in Kansas City.

Tom Brady, he's coming for you in a lot of ways -- including possibly taking over as the best to ever do it.

BIGGEST MOVERS
+4 JAGUARS -4 VIKINGS

1 CHIEFS What's to think they can't keep this going? The defense needs some upgrading, and they could use another receiver, but this is a team built for the long run. 14-3-0

2 EAGLES Jalen Hurts showed on the biggest stage that he is their franchise quarterback. The concern now is they will be losing offensive coordinator Shane Steichen. 14-3-0

3 BENGALS With Joe Burrow and that passing game, they will be in the Super Bowl mix again next year. The offensive line remains a concern. 12-4-0

4 BILLS They have to get better in a few areas, including pass rush, pass protection and they need another receiver. They can't ask Josh Allen to do it all. 3 13-3-0

5 49ERS They head to the offseason with quarterback worries. What's new? Will Brock Purdy come back from his elbow surgery next season? Or will it be Trey Lance? 13-4-0

6 COWBOYS After the playoff loss to the 49ers, the pressure will amp up on Dak Prescott and Mike McCarthy in 2023. 12-5-0

7 JAGUARS This is a team on the rise with Trevor Lawrence and Doug Pederson. They do have to improve their pass rush, but they will be a deep playoff team next season. 9-8-0

8 CHARGERS They have a new offensive coordinator, which will make Justin Herbert happy and make this offense better. They have to throw down the field more. 10-7-0

9 GIANTS The big offseason moves will be bringing back Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. They will sign one -- likely Jones -- and tag the other. 9-7-1

10 RAVENS They will almost certainly put the franchise tag on Lamar Jackson to keep him around. That might not make him a happy player, but it's a must. 10-7-0

11 VIKINGS They needed to make a change at defensive coordinator, which they did. New coordinator Brian Flores will bring a much more aggressive approach. 13-4-0

12 DOLPHINS They are committed to Tua Tagovailoa as quarterback, but now his health is the biggest concern. Getting Vic Fangio as defensive coordinator is a great move. 9-8-0

13 SEAHAWKS They will most likely bring back Geno Smith at quarterback, which they should do. There is a lot of young talent on the roster. 9-8-0

14 LIONS This young team will challenge for the division title in 2023. They improved in a big way this past season. 9-8-0

15 PACKERS The Aaron Rodgers saga hangs over this team's offseason. Will he be with the Packers or is he getting traded? 8-9-0

16 STEELERS They just missed out on the playoffs last season with rookie Kenny Pickett at quarterback. Now they have to grow the offense around him as they push to be a playoff team. 9-8-0

17 BUCCANEERS The Tom Brady era, however short, is over. Now they have to find his replacement. 8-9-0

18 PATRIOTS Bill Belichick made a smart decision to bring in Bill O'Brien as offensive coordinator. Mac Jones has to be happy after what happened last season. 8-9-0

19 COMMANDERS It sounds like Sam Howell will be their quarterback in 2023, although a veteran will be also in the mix. 8-8-1

20 TITANS This is another team that has issues at quarterback. They don't seem as sold on Ryan Tannehill as they used to be. 7-10-0

21 JETS The big offseason talk is whether they can land Aaron Rodgers. If they do, this is a team that can push the Bills for the AFC East title. 7-10-0

22 SAINTS They are searching for a quarterback, but it won't be Derek Carr. They have a team that can win a division title with the right quarterback. 7-10-0

23 BROWNS Deshaun Watson will have a full season with the Browns in 2023, which makes them a better team. But he didn't look great when he played last season.

24 PANTHERS Frank Reich is in as the head coach, but he has to find a quarterback or it won't matter who coaches this team. 7-10-0

25 RAIDERS Who plays quarterback for the Raiders? It won't be Derek Carr, but maybe it's Aaron Rodgers. 6-11-0

26 FALCONS Are they sold on Desmond Ridder as their quarterback? Should they be? 7-10-0

27 CARDINALS The coaching search will end this week, but the biggest issue is Kyler Murray. He is coming off an ACL injury and there are questions about whether he is the franchise guy. 4-13-0

28 COLTS Shane Steichen will be their new head coach, but if he doesn't find a quarterback, it won't matter how good he is as a coach. That's the biggest issue. 4-12-1

29 RAMS Sean McVay is back as coach, but the key for next season is keeping Matt Stafford healthy. They still have a lot of top-level talent. 5-12-0

30 BRONCOS New coach Sean Payton is one of the best offensive minds in the game. Now the challenge will be fixing Russell Wilson. 5-12-0

31 TEXANS They hired DeMeco Ryans as coach, which will be a good thing for this franchise. This team, because of Ryans and draft assets, is trending in the right direction. 3-13-1

32 BEARS Despite having the first pick in the draft, they will build around Justin Fields. They have to get him help, and they have the cap room to do it. 3-14-0

Not a response to you but to "rankings."

If there is any meaning in ranking teams at this time I for sure do not understand it.

Teams do not even have there final rosters for the upcoming season. New head coaches have just been hired. It is like saying Spring training games in Baseball mean something.

Deshaun Watson has played 60 games in the NFL. And it appears that many around football are judging how he will play going forward based upon how he played the last six games? That makes no sense to me at all.

Six games out of sixty when those six games were played after eleven games were played in that season. Then add all of what happened going into the season. Then really look at those games and how he played.

It sure makes more sense to me to look at his last full season when he had a full off season to prepare for the season.

At least that would be comparable.

All the talk that surrounds football going into a new season is nothing more than rearranging the air.

I somewhat agree with what you're saying. My thoughts on the rankings through it all, the pundits have the same (most likely better) information about the Browns than we do. The Browns, just like every other NFL team will be making moves and drafting this off season so their final rosters are not set either - fact. That said, it should make us wonder why the Browns are ranked so low in the early Super Bowl odds and the initial power rankings not to mention being placed 4th in the AFC North. Every one of the pundits know that Watson will be under center next year (except for injury or another off field issue), so why is there no love for the Browns in 2023? The bias by the fans on this forum is expected because after all, it's a Browns forum. However, the pundits apparently don't see Watson as the ultimate savior and the Browns must have bigger questions about the team as a whole. A few of us have been classified as haters because we have brought up what we believe to be some of those items that could be considered issues. I can't say for sure what the pundit's detailed issues about the Browns are so to say but it becomes more obvious every day that the Browns path to the Super Bowl has many more bumps in the road than just getting Watson behind center according to their vision. Pretending the Browns do not have those issues or attacking anyone who suggests such blasphemy is just ignoring what the people who do this for a living really think of the Browns right now. Watson is just a single piece of the puzzle, there appears a bunch of missing and irregular pieces that will still need to be addressed in their opinion. You say it's nothing more than rearranging air but there's a reason for the poor predictions - the Browns might not be where we think they are heading into this off season, at least the pundits don't believe they are where they need to be.

Rearranging air.

It means nothing at all.

Rank the Packers now? Rodgers is in the dark. Rank the Jets? Please.

They have to dig up conversation and that is ok. It is just air moving.

If DW saga had been say what the Carr situation is. Meaning he is just going to another team having played played a full season in 2022.

Where would the Browns be ranked? Those who looked at his last six games and expect the same going forward are basing that on incomplete evidence.

Since quarterbacks do lead teams and there are five or six quarterbacks who will play for new teams. Ranking means what?

There is this obsession with predictions in the NFL that controls the narrative. Every week every person in the media "makes predictions." After and during the season most these "predictions" come out about 50/50. And now gambling is being heavily promoted. Pete Rose must feel real bad.

I would not care at all if the predictions right now all said the Browns would win one game in 2023.

No one is attacking you. What we are saying is that predicting how good the team will be next year BEFORE free agency and the draft is not all that wise. Btw, this is not detailed analysis.



Again, that is not a personal attack on you. It's more of dismissing the reporter's "detailed analysis."

In addition to free agency and the draft, trades could have a huge factor in how teams look next year. For example, what would Aaron Rodgers do for the Jets?

The problem being, you are who you are until you're not.

“All the talk that surrounds football going into a new season is nothing more than rearranging the air.”

Bang on. There will be countless articles like these from now until early September. The ones that might have little substance are coming out, oh I dunno, around now.

I have spent a lot of time researching this subject. Talked to as many people in the NFl as I could. Really dug into this to figure out why we have not been winning the NFL Central title, and I have finally come to a conclusion.


We have not been winning as any games as they have.


There mystery solved.

Would us not scoring as many points as our opponent in games be related to this?

Are those NFL people ok with you sharing such secrets with the rabble?

Wait let me check into that