DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why can't this franchise ever win the North?

You are entitled to your subjective opinion, but I think it is false. Wildly false.

I am not going to go through a long list and it is a long list, but I'll throw a few out.

You said "Maybe Peoples-Jones." Maybe? He was a 6th round pick, right.

How about Teller who was a nobody in Buffalo.

Did Jacoby improve while he was here?

Njoku?

Bitonio hasn't developed?

Cooper was better here than he was in Dallas last year.

Hell, your boy Baker got better after Stefanski arrived and regressed after he left here.

Ward had "developed" into one of the best corners in the league even though this board disrespects him.

Chubb was a 2nd round pick. I think he improved in Stefanski's offense.

Did we ruin Conklin?

How about Pocic? He stunk in Seattle. Now, he is graded as one of the best by PFF.

--Has Myles developed into one of the very best in the NFL? I know there were high expectations, but many fail. Myles is a legit Defensive Player of the Year candidate every year.

Yet we still can't win or get out of the AFC North basement.

I don't really think about Peyton because of the 1st rounder attached. We don't have one, I don't think NO would welcome the idea of one 3 years from now, and I am not sure I would want to trade a pick for a coach in the first place. At most that is a maybe.

1. Hoping for Mayo to be hired as DC.
2. Make AVP OC and play caller.
3. Keep Priefer.
4. Sign some decent WRs in FA - Offense needs more speed and quickness.

5. Get rid of the F-in Evil F-in Elf. The Browns are cursed until they do so.

Name one HC the Browns have fired since 1999 that went on to be a successful HC in the NFL for another team? I understand your reasoning. The problem is that in the case of the Browns it holds zero merit in terms of HC's. I would say the actual problem is the Browns have sucked at hiring HC's.

Any HC or GM that the Browns fired in the past were
Fired for justification. Even John Dorsey has been unable
To land a GM gig since he was fired by the Browns
And I consider him the best GM since the return
Farmer sucked as GM. Heckert and Kokinis were skirt chasers
Sashi was a embarrassment as GM.
HC wise the Browns never the got the best candidate at that
Time. It was always the 2nd or 3rd or 4th

John Dorsey failed to get another GM gig because he plain out sucked at the job. Twice fired - yeah awesome.

In fact, all of those you mentioned sucked and should never have been hired as GMs for the Browns to begin with.

Don't forget the Joe Banner/Mike Lombardi circus. Banner was one creepy ass cracker.

This right here - Truth.

I get consistency and giving people time - I can't believe it but I wanted HUE to get more time and was happy we didn't can him after two seasons... because I bought all the reasons people are saying Stefanski should get another year. Sure - Stefanski's record is night and day to Hue's but we also have a much better roster.

So the truth is - when you look at all our head coaches most of which had posters/fans campaigning that they needed time and hiring/firing was the issue. . . . we had the wrong people in place. Consistency and giving people more time only work when you have the right people on board. Using Belichick as an example is distorting things - the reality is that none of the head coaches we have cycled thru since the return have gone on to be successful anywhere else. That is some indication the decisions were CORRECT. We gonna have to wait 1 more year to find out about Stefanski. Lordy I hope so many with grave reservations are flat wrong.

Was that necessary? Do we have to open every old wound on Pack-it-in Monday??

And do you mean creepy-ass cracker, creepy ass-cracker... or both?

j/c:

The "truth" is often lost when qualifiers are put into the equation. You know, like "since 1999." Well Bill Belichick has turned out to be the best HC of all-time, yet our local media and large portion of the fan base wanted him fired and thought he was a bumbling idiot. Another qualifier is when you limit to "head coaches." Nevermind that Shannahan, Bruce Arians, and Brian Daboll were all despised by our brilliant fans and local media and have since went on to have great careers. But qualifiers are great when you want to win an argument. It's like saying it doesn't rain a lot in Seattle and some dude calls you out by saying "did it rain on July 23rd of this year?"

100% dead on. Fired Browns HCs have not been a successful HC for any other organization. That goes to show you the vastly subpar HCs the Browns hire. Garbage in, Garbage out.

Stefanski has had arguably the most talented Browns players a coach has had since 1999. It is a HCs job to get them to play as a Team. The Browns have a lot of talented individuals but not a talented Team that knows who to consistently win year after year.

Here is the thing. Pit quoted me, but he asked me a question about only Head Coaches. I never said that. I said coaches and FO personnel. If y'all can't see that changing schemes due to new coaches and overhauling rosters due to new FO personnel, may God bless you.

It's called details instead of generalizations. Those are the facts, not what-ifs and what-abouts. It makes in no less of a truth. The discussion as based around Head Coaches specifically and not Offensive Coordinators

Which of these former Head Coaches, since Bill Belichick went onto greatness?

Name League Years Regular Season Records Playoff Records Combined Records

Freddie Kitchens NFL 2019 6-10-0 (0.375) 0-0-0 (0.000) 6-10-0 (0.375)
Gregg Williams NFL 2018* 5-3-0 (0.625) 0-0-0 (0.000) 5-3-0 (0.625)
Hue Jackson NFL 2016 - 2018 3-36-1 (0.088) 0-0-0 (0.000) 3-36-1 (0.088)
Mike Pettine NFL 2014 - 2015 10-22-0 (0.313) 0-0-0 (0.000) 10-22-0 (0.313)
Rob Chudzinski NFL 2013 4-12-0 (0.250) 0-0-0 (0.000) 4-12-0 (0.250)
Pat Shurmur NFL 2011 - 2012 9-23-0 (0.281) 0-0-0 (0.000) 9-23-0 (0.281)
Eric Mangini NFL 2009 - 2010 10-22-0 (0.313) 0-0-0 (0.000) 10-22-0 (0.313)
Romeo Crennel NFL 2005 - 2008 24-40-0 (0.375) 0-0-0 (0.000) 24-40-0 (0.375)
Terry Robiskie NFL 2004* 1-4-0 (0.200) 0-0-0 (0.000) 1-4-0 (0.200)
Butch Davis NFL 2001 - 2004 24-35-0 (0.407) 0-1-0 (0.000) 24-36-0 (0.400)
Chris Palmer NFL 1999 - 2000 5-27-0 (0.156) 0-0-0 (0.000) 5-27-0 (0.156)

I understand. However, he quoted me and then asked a question that I never once brought up. I am not disputing the fact that no HCs have went on to have great success since we came back in 1999. But, I never once said otherwise. Pit has a habit of turning one's words around to start a fight and you fell right into the trap. If you wanna call me out, please at least refute what I actually said and not some invented BS that I never once claimed.

The truth is that a lot of posters and fans thought Shanny was an awesome OC. People soured on him because he was trying to be the HC. That's been mentioned several times and yet here you are regurgitating this falicy again. I can't comment on Arians or Daboll... I don't remember any sentiment either way. Many DID want Arians as HC when he stated he wanted the job.

No, that is not the truth. He was said to not be a "team player" and we would be a lot better off w/Flip because "they would all be on the same page." Wanna wager?

You forgot to mention the Browns will be watching from the basement again as they watch other teams compete as they, again sit in the basement. Hopefully they have some windows down in the basement

Might get a glimmer of light

Nah ! what was I thinking !?

With all due respect, I think the "basement" and "last place" thing have been overdone by a couple of guys who are still upset about Baker being canned. The Browns play in a very strong division and in a superior conference. Detroit won two more games than we did. Tampa Bay won their division while winning one more game than us and we beat them head-to-head.

Yesterday, Berry noted that are a lot of teams in that 7 to 10 victory range. That's very true and a few good breaks or bad breaks are the difference. This team is not nearly as bad as some say they are.

Every single team in the NFL is giving the same speech at their post season press conference. We play in a strong division and a superior conference but a break here and a break there and we would have been a playoff team.

You say Detroit only had 2 more wins, but I guarantee you that if you go to the Lions board, you'd find out that a) the fans are saying a bad break here and a bad break there cost us a playoff spot and b) the FO and HC are saying they are actually better than they showed and left 2-3 victories out there they should have won.

New England, Pittsburgh, Detroit, Washington, Green Bay, Carolina, New Orleans, and Atlanta were all 1 victory somewhere in their season from making the playoffs. Every one of those teams are saying the exact same thing the Browns gave yesterday at their press conference. The hard reality is that for them and the Browns, your success is based on your play on the field and the wins and losses generated from that play. Every team in the NFL plays "what if" every off season - there's nothing special about the Browns season except they did finish in last place and that's not being overdone - it's a freaking fact attributed to the HC and team's performance.

Actually, I would have been more impressed with Berry and Stefanski if they would have been honest with the press and admit that they had a very poor season and that it was unacceptable for a Cleveland Browns team. That this team has a lot of work to do this off season to get us to the point where we will be a contender for the division championship that we have NEVER won. That Berry would have said that he was having meetings with the coaches and Stefanski with the players and starting today that they are going to right the ship. Instead, we get that there are a lot of teams in that 7-10 victory range. You know what else there is, after the 2022 season, there's only 7 teams in the entire NFL with back-to-back losing seasons and one of those is our Cleveland Browns.

Here's a couple of stats to chew on:
The NFC has won 2 of the last 3 Super Bowls

Which is the superior conference:
2021: 80 games played interconference, AFC 40 wins - NFC 40 wins
2022: 80 games played interconference, AFC 40 wins - NFC 40 wins

AFC Conference Record:
2021 Cleveland Browns ranked 11th - 5-7-0 .417
2022 Cleveland Browns ranked 14th - 4-8-0 .333 (only teams with a worse AFC Conference record: #15 Houston 3-8-1 .292, #16 Denver 3-9-0 .250)

One thing to keep in mind about the standings is we have a poster on here who likes to talk about how we haven't finished above 3rd place in the last three years. He fails to mention that in one of those years, we beat the the Steelers 2 out 3 times, including a win in a playoff game. Nope, no mention of that. It's just "the Browns finished in 3rd place.

What is the barometer of success with this franchise?
How is success being measured over the years. ?
The best this franchise has ever accomplished is beating
The Steelers in the playoffs 3 seasons ago.
I think alot of fans are still celebrating that win.
But that win was nothing more than a flash. The Browns
For one day were relevant.
Since then this franchise is average at the very best.
It failed to use that Steelers playoff win as a vehicle
To propel foward to greater achievements
Right now the Browns have to figure how to become relevant

mac, I will post what I want. You do not have the authority to tell me what I can and can't post. You can put me on ignore if you don't like what I have to say.

Two things, he wasn't a HC and the Browns didn't technically fire him, but Shanahan is doing a pretty good job in SF. I"d love to have him back....

So, you're of the mindset that as long as we beat Pittsburgh it doesn't mean a thing that we actually finished in 3rd place. Heck, we beat Pittsburgh once this year too so that makes the whole year successful and has no bearing on the fact we finished in last place in the division - WE BEAT PITTSBURGH! Never mind that we had the 3rd worst record in the entire AFC (4-8) in conference games - we beat Pittsburgh.

You can spin it any way you want but it doesn't change the fact that the Browns performance on the field has resulted in no finish better than 3rd place the last 3 years and actually last place this year. The Browns are also the only team in the division to have never won the AFC North. HC's resumes are built on win and losses not "what ifs." The playoff you want recognized is a distant past as the Browns have gotten continually worse since that time - that's fact and a reality you refuse to accept. Heck, Pittsburgh finished higher than us in the standings this year playing a rookie QB with a 3rd of the talent the Browns have on offense. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in 19-years, and you want credit for beating them twice in one year as we wallow continually in the bottom half of the AFC North?

Hey, ok, the Cleveland Browns achieved only their second winning season in the last 18 years when they went to the playoffs in the 2020 season and had a 1-1 playoff record. The Browns abruptly returned to their losing ways posting losing seasons in 2021 and 2022. Two winning seasons now in the last 20-years but we beat Pittsburgh.

Sometimes I actually wish the Browns kept their name when they moved from Cleveland to Baltimore. But I haven’t lived in the Cleveland area for years so it’s easy for me to say that.

What?!

Bill Belichick head coach of the Cleveland Browns in 1991 - 1995. Fired by Art Modell.

How about Marty Schottenheimer? He only has the 8th highest number of wins as a HC in NFL history. 205 wins to be exact.

Sometimes….just…sometimes. Like I say I haven’t lived in the Cleveland area since I joined the Navy. I’d have been a loyal fan wherever the Browns were located. I would have felt bad for the local fans and I hated Modell even before he moved the team. And I hate the rats now but I wouldn’t have if they kept the Browns name.

Are you Pit's brother. I didn't imply any of that. I pointed out that you completely ignore it and just state that we finished 3rd in the division. Let me channel you for a minute.....So, you are saying winning 12 games while reaching the playoffs and beating your biggest rival in the playoffs is meaningless and finishing 3rd in the division during the regular season is all that matters. LOL

The rival doesn't mean squat - that's only 2 out of 17 games that need to be played. We can lose every game to the Steelers as far as I'm concerned if we win the other 15. I'm also not saying that the win against Pittsburgh wasn't exciting - it was just that. I'm also saying that we limped into the playoffs losing 2 of the final 4 games (including a NYJets loss) and needing Miami to lose and the Browns to beat the Steelers backups in week 17 as the Division winning Steelers rested most of their starters. The eventual win resulted in a 3rd place finish with a playoff bid and then the Browns failed to build on that rare feat the next season as they suffered a losing season in 2021 and another one in 2022.

Yes, the won/loss record is the only thing that matters. As the great HC Vince Lombardi said: “Winning is not a sometime thing; it's an all the time thing. You don't win once in a while… you don't do things right once in a while… you do them right all the time. Winning is a habit. Unfortunately, so is losing.”

After all the HC's we've had since 1999 you had to reach back almost 30 years to try and make a point. Since that time there have been 12 Browns HC's. If you think having to reach back almost 30 years and 13 HC's ago is some positive in trying to prove your point, you should be able to see the desperation of that. A record of 1-13 in your theory isn't a positive in case you missed it.

How many fans weren't supporting Marty again when he was fired? As I recall most fans were outraged when he was fired.

No but if my parents were still alive I might be requesting they adopt him.

No what people are saying is that when every season since then the W/L record has regressed you can't keep leaning on what a HC accomplished three years ago. You're welcome. You don't seem to be able to channel Steve very well.