DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why can't this franchise ever win the North?

The Browns/Steelers rivalry doesn't mean squat? LMAO

1-12. One out of 13.

Like I said, the other 15 games are more important - losing twice to the Steelers doesn't mean squat if we win the other 15. On the other side, beating the Steelers twice does not make a good season if you're losing the other 15. Thus - the Steelers games don't mean squat if you still have a losing record. Laugh all you want - we still finished in last place even with the coveted Steelers win. How'd that work out for the team record?

No kidding? Sheesh. But don't tell Browns fans that the rivalry doesn't matter.

It matter for two games a year. Not for the other 15 games on the schedule.

And beating the Steelers does not constitute a successful season with a losing record.

Who said otherwise?

It's nit-picky, but technically Belichick was fired by Baltimore, not Cleveland.

Another one of Art's brilliant decisions.

Just read AFC NORTH titles

Steelers 9
Bengals 6
Ravens 6
Browns 0.

That's really eye opening

Agreed. You can trace the beginning of the downward spiral of our Browns to Art Modell especially because of his alleged meddling. However, there has been enough time, GM's and Coaches to right the ship since then. All have failed up to this point.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...super-.bowl-with-champion-chiefs-at-top/

2024 Super Bowl odds: An early look at who's favored for next year's Super Bowl, with champion Chiefs at top.

It's early in the process for every team but it's never too early to start taking a look at who may find themselves playing in Super Bowl LVIII out in Las Vegas this time next year.

The Browns are listed with 17th best odds overall to win Super Bowl.

The Browns are listed with the 10th best odds to win the AFC.

The Browns are listed with the 3rd best odds to win the AFC North.

The odds makers already know we have Watson under contract so there must be another reason for the poor odds.

AFC Odds with overall Super Bowl champion ranking:
Kansas City (1)
Buffalo (3)
Cincinnati (5)
LA Chargers (7)
Jacksonville (8)
Miami (10)
NY Jets (11)
Baltimore (15)
Las Vegas Raiders (16)
Cleveland Browns (17)
Denver (18)
New England (20)
Pittsburgh (23)
Tennessee (25)
Indianapolis (28)
Houston (32)

Odds aren't static.

Dead link.

Would be interested in knowing the actual odds and not just "ranking".

Odds makers' don't care who you have under contract. Futures odds not only have to fit into certain algorithms, they are much more a reflection of betting tendencies than actual talent from team to team.

Yup.

Art Modell has nothing to do with this. He moved his team to Baltimore. The only thing this team has in common with his team is the name. This team started as an expansion team in 1999. Everything related to "this team" has nothing to do with "that team".

The Browns and Broncos are +4500.

The link can be used by clicking NFL at the top of the page and the article is highlighted on the right. It's just an article that I posted for your review that's showing the Browns are not being thought of as a contender at this point even with Watson on the roster. Not my opinion, just an outside source pointing out the early betting lines and thoughts in Vegas.

Always interesting to see the opening lines...

Vegas puts the Browns firmly in the second tier (with most of the pack).

As usual, most of the previous season's playoff participants are right at the top (most expensive) -- because that what early gamblers want to throw down on.


Always some strange anomalies. The Vikings finished 13-3 with odds paying better than the Browns... the Lions finished behind them at 9-8 and are 13 spots higher on the odds charts. Maybe nobody ever bets on the Vikings...


2024 SUPER BOWL ODDS

Kansas City Chiefs +550

San Francisco 49ers +600

Buffalo Bills +650

Philadelphia Eagles +800

Cincinnati Bengals +900

Dallas Cowboys +1600

Los Angeles Chargers +2200

Jacksonville Jaguars +2800

Detroit Lions +3000

Miami Dolphins +3500

Green Bay Packers +3500

New York Jets +3500

Los Angeles Rams +3500

New York Giants +3500

Baltimore Ravens +3500

Las Vegas Raiders +4000

Cleveland Browns +4500

Denver Broncos +4500

New Orleans Saints +5000

New England Patriots +5000

Tampa Bay Buccaneers +5000

Minnesota Vikings +5000

Pittsburgh Steelers +5000

Seattle Seahawks +5500

Tennessee Titans +7000

Carolina Panthers +7000

Washington Commanders +7000

Indianapolis Colts +8000

Atlanta Falcons +8000

Arizona Cardinals +10000

Chicago Bears +10000

Houston Texans +12500


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-super-bowl-with-champion-chiefs-at-top/

Other than getting people who like to gamble to spend money, it's probably not wise to evaluate the chances of any team before free agency and the draft take place.

It's certainly not wise. These opening lines put out right after the SB remind me of the first mock drafts we see. There may not be much movement in the top three or four, but after that it will change a lot as time goes on. I mean as it stands the Raiders don't even have a QB and they're rated above the Browns. Last I saw it was Landry Jones. How does that make any sense?

Interesting read about NFL team odds.

https://www.ksla.com/2022/09/04/6-charts-reveal-need-to-know-stats-about-nfl-preseason-odds/

2023 NFL offseason: Sean Payton's Broncos among five teams poised to make a major leap next season
A look at which teams could be on the upswing next season

By Cody Benjamin

The 2022 NFL season is in the books after the Chiefs won their second Lombardi Trophy in four years Sunday night. Now, it's time to look ahead to the 2023 offseason. We don't yet know which big names will be relocating via trade or free agency, and we don't yet know which teams will swipe the hottest prospects in April's draft. But we can still make educated guesses as to which clubs are best positioned to take real steps forward next season.

Here are five early picks to make a major leap in 2023:

Bears
2022 record: 3-14

We're a little hesitant to hurl flowers at a regime that willfully ignored Justin Fields' dire supporting cast going into 2022, but this time around, with so much cap space at his disposal, general manager Ryan Poles would have to try to avoid improving the young quarterback's lineup. Fields was MVP-level electric as a second-year player, even while coach Matt Eberflus continued to risk injury to the QB in the name of late-season pride. As long as Fields' protection and weapons improve in the slightest, there's no reason to think Chicago can't play spoiler out of the NFC North. Eberflus' young defense also can't be much worse.

Broncos
2022 record: 5-12

You don't get much more uninspired than the "offense" produced by Nathaniel Hackett and Russell Wilson in 2022. The latter remains, but if anyone's going to force the ex-Seahawks star back into form, it'll be Sean Payton, whose public conviction as their new head coach is backed by a been-there, done-that resume. Wilson, by the way, can't be anymore sluggish than he was under Hackett; assuming he's rightly re-saddled to more run-heavy, play-action scripts featuring a healthier Javonte Williams, Denver's still got the foundational pieces on defense to keep pace with the Chargers and Raiders in the AFC West.


Colts
2022 record: 4-12-1

This team's QB carousel finally spun itself into pieces, so GM Chris Ballard is primed to focus on a longer-term investment under center, especially with the No. 4 overall draft pick in tow. Regardless of which prospect ends up on their radar -- Ohio State's C.J. Stroud and Kentucky's Will Levis look like logical targets, assuming Alabama's Bryce Young is gone -- they're also set to return to the comfy tradition of trading offensive coordinators with the Eagles. The chief play-caller for a flexible Philly offense that saw Jalen Hurts emerge as an MVP threat, new coach Shane Steichen should have enough Pro Bowl-caliber playmakers across the board (i.e. Jonathan Taylor, Michael Pittman Jr., DeForest Buckner) to restore hope in an open AFC South.

Jets
2022 record: 7-10

The narrative surrounding New York -- just a QB away! -- has been repeated so often that we're growing a little wary of its truth. Their O-line, for example, remains a question mark. And the new offensive coaching pairing of Nathaniel Hackett and Todd Downing only sounds intriguing if the inevitable QB addition is a whopper, like Aaron Rodgers or Lamar Jackson. Then again, even a lesser name like Derek Carr or Jimmy Garoppolo is probably capable of getting this club over .500. In a division where the Patriots are still retooling and the Dolphins are banking on Tua Tagovailoa's availability, their young talent at so many spots -- running back, wide receiver, pass rusher, cornerback -- suggests they really can be a contender with a top-15 signal-caller.

Rams
2022 record: 5-12

You might call this a copout considering they were Super Bowl champions just a year ago, but then again ... was it only a year ago?! So much went wrong for L.A. in 2022 that GM Les Snead could actually be in seller's mode (!) to recoup much-needed assets for whatever time they have left with Sean McVay at the helm. With the McVay-Matthew Stafford combo back, however, and the O-line presumably in better health along with No. 1 wideout Cooper Kupp, it's hard to think they won't be back in the mix in the NFC West, where the Cardinals, 49ers and Seahawks all have different but major question marks at QB.

NFL Power Rankings: Chiefs sit atop post-Super Bowl list as three AFC teams land in top four
In his final Power Rankings, Pete Prisco says the Chiefs are officially a dynasty -- and there's no denying it
By Pete Prisco

Late Sunday night, filled with joy from another Super Bowl victory, I asked Kansas City Chiefs defensive end Frank Clark if his organization was now considered a dynasty, with two Super Bowl victories in four years and three appearances.

He didn't bite.

He wouldn't say it. Nor would quarterback Patrick Mahomes, who won his second Super Bowl MVP and second ring in five years.

"I'm not going to say dynasty yet, we're not done," Mahomes said.

They won't say it, so I will: The Chiefs are a dynasty.

After rallying from 10 down at the half -- scoring 17 fourth-quarter points -- to beat the Philadelphia Eagles in a thrilling 38-35 victory, there is no other way to describe this team. Two titles in four years and three Super Bowl appearances in that same time makes them a dynasty.

Not a dynasty in the 1950s Cleveland Browns way, but a dynasty of the modern game, where free agency and a salary cap can eat a team alive.


This isn't one of those teams.

That's because of coach Andy Reid and Mahomes, the best coach-quarterback combination in the game. With Mahomes reinjuring his right ankle Sunday night, it looked like the Chiefs were in trouble. But instead, it was Mahomes lighting up the Eagles' vaunted defense -- the top-ranked pass defense in the league -- in the second half. He completed 13 of his 14 passes in the second half with two touchdowns.

But it was the way he did it that impressed. With his mobility limited some, it was the great scheming by Reid that produced the two second-half touchdowns. They got both on return-motion plays that had guys wide open. They were easy throws for Mahomes, made easy by Reid's brilliant offensive mind.

But it's Mahomes who makes this team a dynasty. The Chiefs traded away Tyreek Hill before the season and the offense evolved. Mahomes became more patient, became a better passer. That showed up Sunday night.

In five seasons, Mahomes now has five division titles, two regular-season MVPs, two Super Bowl MVPs and the two rings. On paper, the Eagles were the better team, but Mahomes was the great equalizer.

It's always that way with franchise quarterbacks. That's why the Chiefs end the season as the top-ranked team in my Power Rankings and will be No. 1 going into next season. Sustainable success comes from having "that" guy at quarterback.

The problem is the AFC is loaded with those guys. There is Josh Allen in Buffalo and Joe Burrow in Cincinnati. There is Justin Herbert with the Chargers and Trevor Lawrence on his way in Jacksonville. Those four teams will all be relevant in 2023 because of their quarterback.


But the best plays in Kansas City.

Tom Brady, he's coming for you in a lot of ways -- including possibly taking over as the best to ever do it.

BIGGEST MOVERS
+4 JAGUARS -4 VIKINGS

1 CHIEFS What's to think they can't keep this going? The defense needs some upgrading, and they could use another receiver, but this is a team built for the long run. 14-3-0

2 EAGLES Jalen Hurts showed on the biggest stage that he is their franchise quarterback. The concern now is they will be losing offensive coordinator Shane Steichen. 14-3-0

3 BENGALS With Joe Burrow and that passing game, they will be in the Super Bowl mix again next year. The offensive line remains a concern. 12-4-0

4 BILLS They have to get better in a few areas, including pass rush, pass protection and they need another receiver. They can't ask Josh Allen to do it all. 3 13-3-0

5 49ERS They head to the offseason with quarterback worries. What's new? Will Brock Purdy come back from his elbow surgery next season? Or will it be Trey Lance? 13-4-0

6 COWBOYS After the playoff loss to the 49ers, the pressure will amp up on Dak Prescott and Mike McCarthy in 2023. 12-5-0

7 JAGUARS This is a team on the rise with Trevor Lawrence and Doug Pederson. They do have to improve their pass rush, but they will be a deep playoff team next season. 9-8-0

8 CHARGERS They have a new offensive coordinator, which will make Justin Herbert happy and make this offense better. They have to throw down the field more. 10-7-0

9 GIANTS The big offseason moves will be bringing back Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley. They will sign one -- likely Jones -- and tag the other. 9-7-1

10 RAVENS They will almost certainly put the franchise tag on Lamar Jackson to keep him around. That might not make him a happy player, but it's a must. 10-7-0

11 VIKINGS They needed to make a change at defensive coordinator, which they did. New coordinator Brian Flores will bring a much more aggressive approach. 13-4-0

12 DOLPHINS They are committed to Tua Tagovailoa as quarterback, but now his health is the biggest concern. Getting Vic Fangio as defensive coordinator is a great move. 9-8-0

13 SEAHAWKS They will most likely bring back Geno Smith at quarterback, which they should do. There is a lot of young talent on the roster. 9-8-0

14 LIONS This young team will challenge for the division title in 2023. They improved in a big way this past season. 9-8-0

15 PACKERS The Aaron Rodgers saga hangs over this team's offseason. Will he be with the Packers or is he getting traded? 8-9-0

16 STEELERS They just missed out on the playoffs last season with rookie Kenny Pickett at quarterback. Now they have to grow the offense around him as they push to be a playoff team. 9-8-0

17 BUCCANEERS The Tom Brady era, however short, is over. Now they have to find his replacement. 8-9-0

18 PATRIOTS Bill Belichick made a smart decision to bring in Bill O'Brien as offensive coordinator. Mac Jones has to be happy after what happened last season. 8-9-0

19 COMMANDERS It sounds like Sam Howell will be their quarterback in 2023, although a veteran will be also in the mix. 8-8-1

20 TITANS This is another team that has issues at quarterback. They don't seem as sold on Ryan Tannehill as they used to be. 7-10-0

21 JETS The big offseason talk is whether they can land Aaron Rodgers. If they do, this is a team that can push the Bills for the AFC East title. 7-10-0

22 SAINTS They are searching for a quarterback, but it won't be Derek Carr. They have a team that can win a division title with the right quarterback. 7-10-0

23 BROWNS Deshaun Watson will have a full season with the Browns in 2023, which makes them a better team. But he didn't look great when he played last season.

24 PANTHERS Frank Reich is in as the head coach, but he has to find a quarterback or it won't matter who coaches this team. 7-10-0

25 RAIDERS Who plays quarterback for the Raiders? It won't be Derek Carr, but maybe it's Aaron Rodgers. 6-11-0

26 FALCONS Are they sold on Desmond Ridder as their quarterback? Should they be? 7-10-0

27 CARDINALS The coaching search will end this week, but the biggest issue is Kyler Murray. He is coming off an ACL injury and there are questions about whether he is the franchise guy. 4-13-0

28 COLTS Shane Steichen will be their new head coach, but if he doesn't find a quarterback, it won't matter how good he is as a coach. That's the biggest issue. 4-12-1

29 RAMS Sean McVay is back as coach, but the key for next season is keeping Matt Stafford healthy. They still have a lot of top-level talent. 5-12-0

30 BRONCOS New coach Sean Payton is one of the best offensive minds in the game. Now the challenge will be fixing Russell Wilson. 5-12-0

31 TEXANS They hired DeMeco Ryans as coach, which will be a good thing for this franchise. This team, because of Ryans and draft assets, is trending in the right direction. 3-13-1

32 BEARS Despite having the first pick in the draft, they will build around Justin Fields. They have to get him help, and they have the cap room to do it. 3-14-0

I somewhat agree with what you're saying. My thoughts on the rankings through it all, the pundits have the same (most likely better) information about the Browns than we do. The Browns, just like every other NFL team will be making moves and drafting this off season so their final rosters are not set either - fact. That said, it should make us wonder why the Browns are ranked so low in the early Super Bowl odds and the initial power rankings not to mention being placed 4th in the AFC North. Every one of the pundits know that Watson will be under center next year (except for injury or another off field issue), so why is there no love for the Browns in 2023? The bias by the fans on this forum is expected because after all, it's a Browns forum. However, the pundits apparently don't see Watson as the ultimate savior and the Browns must have bigger questions about the team as a whole. A few of us have been classified as haters because we have brought up what we believe to be some of those items that could be considered issues. I can't say for sure what the pundit's detailed issues about the Browns are so to say but it becomes more obvious every day that the Browns path to the Super Bowl has many more bumps in the road than just getting Watson behind center according to their vision. Pretending the Browns do not have those issues or attacking anyone who suggests such blasphemy is just ignoring what the people who do this for a living really think of the Browns right now. Watson is just a single piece of the puzzle, there appears a bunch of missing and irregular pieces that will still need to be addressed in their opinion. You say it's nothing more than rearranging air but there's a reason for the poor predictions - the Browns might not be where we think they are heading into this off season, at least the pundits don't believe they are where they need to be.

No one is attacking you. What we are saying is that predicting how good the team will be next year BEFORE free agency and the draft is not all that wise. Btw, this is not detailed analysis.



Again, that is not a personal attack on you. It's more of dismissing the reporter's "detailed analysis."

In addition to free agency and the draft, trades could have a huge factor in how teams look next year. For example, what would Aaron Rodgers do for the Jets?

The problem being, you are who you are until you're not.

“All the talk that surrounds football going into a new season is nothing more than rearranging the air.”

Bang on. There will be countless articles like these from now until early September. The ones that might have little substance are coming out, oh I dunno, around now.

I have spent a lot of time researching this subject. Talked to as many people in the NFl as I could. Really dug into this to figure out why we have not been winning the NFL Central title, and I have finally come to a conclusion.


We have not been winning as any games as they have.


There mystery solved.

Would us not scoring as many points as our opponent in games be related to this?

Are those NFL people ok with you sharing such secrets with the rabble?

Wait let me check into that