Athletically Wimbley maybe a fair comparison but that's where the Comparison ends. If you watch only the highlights you see Mingo do a Spin move. That's already one more rush move that Wimbley ever developed over his career and that's not even factoring the other stuff Mingo does.
I remember all those articles about him, Kam, learning new pass rush moves yet year after year he never did. Mingo already has 2x the amount of moves Wimbley did. Additionally Wimbley doesn't and didn't have Mingo's first step. And in a race to the Qb every 10th of second matters especially when you long arms as Mingo does.
Mingo has his weaknesses for sure therefore there is no need to invent them.
Great...Bust all words. All I know from what I saw. The kid has one of the fastest First steps (with pads on n not short olympics) I've ever seen the last first step like that I have seen is LT. LT mind you had a lot more going on than his first step so Mingo has a lot to go to even be a thought. I'm talking First step which has so so much to do with football especially the NFL where the game is so fast. That is what I like about him. If he works hard he'll add on the pounds n be more efficient w/technique.
Aaron Rodgers - not specifically pointing at you Toad but I am amazed as the years go on how many Rodger pimps there were in 2005...I don't remember many,,,lol
Jarvis Jones...sorry the kid ran a 4.95 - not what you measure OLBs on...but a 4.95??? What that did was force teams to go back n review the film on Jones. What they saw were more system opportunities than Jones making the opportunities happen. A lot of those successes will not occur with the likes of Joe Thomas blocking him. So what happened was the guy Jordan took his role n instead of the Dolphins jumping up n taking Jones at #3 it was Jordan that got taken instead.
Will turn out great??? None of us can say either way on Jones but he dropped for a reason in this weak class.
Right now going in - not close in talent n speed not 40 speed either its that first step.
Mingo will have to work hard to become GREAT.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: I read that he's going to wear "The Assassin's" old number ...... 51. (For those who remember Eddie Johnson) Hopefully he brings that same kind of attitude to the field.
Now there's a guy that could put his game face on! Loved him. RIP Eddie.
if he can bring Eddie's attitude with Barks skills i'll be more than happy with that!
Quote: You say you are linked to Aaron Rodgers. Everyone else says you are linked to Jason Campbell.
I actually have him linked to Tim Rattay.
That's just cruel.
Actually, it's factual.
I don't recall what year it was but we were in the middle of yet another busted 1st round QB working his way out of the city and the league. I was pushing Rattay as a guy to sign and play for a year while we developed a newly drafted QB. Same thing for Campbell.
Getting back to Mingo, I'm not gonna toe the company line and play that the glass is half-full. I think he's a helluva risky pick who has a higher-than-acceptable risk of being a bust. I don't hate Mingo the way I hated Quinn and Weeden, but he's a project, and I don't like projects at #6 in an entire draft. As for Jarvis Jones I'm going to hate seeing him rack up sacks every year against us. We went for upside over production and that's dicey. I would have been much happier with Milliner or Jordan over Mingo.
The two best 1st round picks we've had in the last decade were not sexy picks. They were production guys in Thomas and Mack. I didn't believe we were in the position to go after upside while taking on risk.
Time will tell.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I really, really like Jones, and I hate that he went to a perfect situation in Pittsburgh.
However, he is an injury risk. If he wasn't, if he had a clean bill of health, then he would have gone much earlier than he did. He has risks, just like Mingo does ... except that Mingo can grow out of his limits, whereas Jones could be a hit away from instant retirement. I love Jones' burst, and first step. I think that he is a tremendous pass rusher. That said, there is a reason why he slipped as far as he did. If he was completely healthy, and not a health risk, I could have seen him easily being the 1st pass rusher off the board. He could have gone to Miami, or Detroit, or to us, or to Philly, or to the Jets, or the Raiders, or the Saints. Bottom line is that a lot of teams likely would have grabbed Jones if he wasn't a health risk. (us included) However, he is a health risk, one that the Steelers felt was justified taking at 17 ..and we'll have to see if they were correct in taking him.
What I like about Mingo is his sheer physical talent. Is there a risk? Of course there is. There was risk taking Courtney Brown. There was risk taking William Green. There was risk taking KW2. There is risk with every player. However, if a team is going to be a great team, they need some great players ..... and Mingo has greatness potential. The Browns could have gone "safer", with a CB coming off of his 5th surgery ...... but instead they went with a boom/bust kinda guy, who precisely fits the scheme we will run. I bet that Horton had a huge voice in us taking Mingo. If a guy is a consensus pick, and the coaching staff agrees with the rest of the front office, then I don't have a problem with the pick. This team has a bunch of pretty good players. What we need are those incredibly talented difference makers. I think that Mingo could become one of those players. I think that he has every bit as much physical talent as Jones.
That's worth taking a shot.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I think Mingo is a lot more physically talented than Jones.
Jones' 40-time is what people seem to fixate on (and they fail to realize that he was injured at the Pro Day when he posted that 4.92), but his 7.45 cone, 9'3 broad, 30.5 inch vertical (all measures of how much explosion he has) are also really, really bad for a early-mid first round WOLB. I want my WOLBs to have more burst off the snap than those numbers indicate.
To me, Mingo has Von Miller's ceiling while I see Jones as a very safe player who's probably an 8-12 sack per year guy. He's a good athlete, but not elite, and that'll prevent him from ever being one of the best pass rushers in the league. And as of right now, he struggles against the run and in coverage. And his career can end at any moment.
The Browns got the superior prospect in Mingo. I'm happy to have him.
I think Jones' slide had very little to do with his neck and everything to do with his times. That's what made Suggs fall as well.
Including Powder in the response, I fully agree that Mingo is the better athlete but feel that Jones is the better football player. It goes back to my feelings about picking safer with known production versus picking little, risky production with big upside.
My intent isn't to turn this into a Jones versus Mingo debate. It's more about the philosophy of taking a boom-or-bust guy, ergo my feelings that I'd have been happier with Milliner or even Jordan. Now word didn't come out till the 12th hour that Milliner had gone through several surgeries and that gave me pause, but it's the level of gamble with Mingo that has my teeth on edge. I don't think he can get significantly bigger and stronger which means he stands a bigger chance of being a rusher only, though his physical gifts are supposed to translate well to coverage. Of course that's the least important aspect of what he'll be asked to do, but such is life.
He'll show some amazing burst in OTA's and make jaws drop, but the real test will be his first pre-season games. I sure don't see a guy who is going to do much more than be a situational part this season. I'll keep this as my last skeptical post about Mingo until we get near the season.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I think a big difference in how I view Mingo versus others is that I think he's not that much of a boom-or-bust player. There's definitely some risk that he won't hit the ceiling that his natural athleticism indicates, but even if he doesn't hit this proverbial ceiling, he's still going to be an excellent situational pass rusher if used correctly. This goes back to coaching. I trust Horton more than almost anyone in the league to use a natural 3-4 OLB correctly.
And I still think there's a pretty good chance of Mingo hitting his ceiling. He seems to be an upstanding guy, he fits a 3-4 much better than a 4-3, and Horton is one of the most respected DCs in the game. There's a lot of factors going in his favor, especially compared to someone like Jordan in Miami IMO.
Isn't a player who is only very good at rushing the passer an extremely valuable player?
Quote: I don't think he can get significantly bigger and stronger
Why do you think that? If you have explained earlier please tell me and I will go back and read it. But it seems as though many players go to the NFL and get bigger and stronger and also maintain their other attributes. Why is Mingo incapable of doing what so many others have done?
Yeah, I don't understand people's reluctance with the idea of light-ish pass rushers gaining weight once they hit the NFL. The only example (and this is an extreme one) I can think of in regards to a pass rusher not being able to gain weight and it completely derailing his career is Aaron Maybin. But Aaron Maybin is the exception, not the rule.
Also, am I missing where Jones is significantly bigger than Mingo? Mingo is taller and weighs about the same. I understand that he probably put on muscle to impress at the combine, but he also put on muscle (which you say he can't do) and still ran very well for a man his size.
I disagree. Jones had some excellent tape .... 40 times be damned. He knows how to get after the QB. I just don't see teams dropping him that far ... especially teams that desperately need a difference maker on defense. I think that his medical had to play a big part in his drop.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: There's definitely some risk that he won't hit the ceiling that his natural athleticism indicates, but even if he doesn't hit this proverbial ceiling, he's still going to be an excellent situational pass rusher if used correctly.
Quoting Powder first...
I wouldn't consider it a good thing if Mingo only becomes a situational rusher. I do fully agree that he was always meant for the 3-4. I would also note that all the coaching in the world can't make a turtle fly, so it's going to take more than coaching to get Mingo to learn how to use his hands and gain more leverage.
Quote: Why do you think that? If you have explained earlier please tell me and I will go back and read it. But it seems as though many players go to the NFL and get bigger and stronger and also maintain their other attributes. Why is Mingo incapable of doing what so many others have done?
This was in reference to my belief that Mingo can't get significantly bigger and stronger.
No man, I didn't go into this deeply earlier in the thread so going back to read won't produce anything, hehe.
I know I'm going against the grain on this one, but I don't see a frame where he's going to be able to keep another 20 pounds on it. He's very lean and muscular but he's also got a relatively thin build. If you're going to add weight you want a wide frame, which I don't see with Mingo. I feel that he's in the mold of slightly-built offensive linemen who can't eat enough food to maintain weight as the season goes on. Adding 10 pounds isn't going to help him hold up at the point of attack. Part of adding true functional strength is building up the core and legs, and I'm not sure I see a frame that can do that.
It seems that all I'm doing is ripping Mingo. I'm not at all. If you can keep people off of him and let him work in space he's going to do some damage. My fears revolve around what happens to him when he's engaged. I don't see a guy who is going to ever be solid either against the run, holding up at the point, or shedding blocks. If there's a scheme that can protect someone like Mingo it'll be under the tutelage of Horton.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
I wouldn't consider it to be a "good" thing, either.
But becoming an excellent situational pass rusher (which again, is his floor IMO) wouldn't exactly make him the "boom-or-bust" player that everyone on this forum seems to be labeling him as.
Quote: If he puts on 10 pounds he will weigh about the same as both Clay Matthews and DeMarcus Ware.
And yet both Ware and Matthews are considered stout against the run and good at shedding blocks. So ten pounds is going to make Mingo good in those areas as well.
If you look at their pics, it's clear that Mingo doesn't have the same build as either of those guys, and adding a mere 10 pounds isn't going to get him there.
Many players look exactly the same on paper in terms of size but don't play anything like it on the field. Mingo would have to add 20 pounds of pure muscle to have their size, and I don't see that happening.
Trying to find fair and telling pics isn't easy, but clearly 10 pounds of muscle is not going to put Mingo into the same conversation as Ware and Matthews. He's just that long, that lean, and that slight-of-build. Much of it is in his lower body, that's where the power of Matthews and Ware come from. And for the record, that picture of Mingo wasns't taken in 2009. It was taken the day before the draft.
Not all players are built the same, yet can be listed as the same height and weight.
What Ware and Matthews do aren't things that Mingo is going to be able to do. His game will be different. It'll be all about speed, and the lack of the other attributes which would make him an all around player are my concerns.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy. Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
Pick pick pick pick pick, all I hear is Mingo can't do this Mingo can't do that ...
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Jones is a MUCH bigger bust risk than Mingo....and as you know, I didn't want us to draft neither. That said, Mingo has a much better motor/intensity to his game and he doesn't have the medical Jones has. The "measurables over production" talk is pretty much useless the moment you realize that they played 2 DIFFERENT positions and had completely opposite responsibilities most of the time. Jones was allowed to freelance, Mingo not and he faced an OT a couple of inches away from him. I think around 75% of Jones' sacks were of the unblocked variety, so while it's absolutely legit to question Mingo's problem of shedding blocks, it's somewhat biased to act as if Jones is much better at it, because he ain't. His "rush" was over the moment someone, even RBs/FBs, got a hand on him
But we've been there before, we will find out I guess...but I was fist bumping when the Steelers selected Jones over Eifert and Rhodes. The Steelers' drafts have sucked lately and are the no1 reason why they're an old 8-8 team clearly on the decline...drafting Jones and L.Bell with their best picks will cement that, although they recovered nicely in the 3rd to 5th
I think where we agree is that we should have taken the trade down offer, as Eifert/Rhodes and Warford/Taylor >>> Mingo imho
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Living in SEC country, I get to watch a lot of SEC games. I heard all the talk about Jones, got excited because I knew we needed an edge rusher, and watched him closely. I was very disappointed. The guy played w/out discipline. He would charge up-field and often be the reason why teams had big plays. I was praying we would not draft him and this was before I knew about his medical concerns.
I think Mingo is walking into a perfect situation for him as a player. I truly believe that Horton is not going to over-burden him and instead turn him loose to go after the QB. I think his explosiveness combined w/the many different fronts we'll use will get him in the backfield on a consistent basis.
Earlier this morning, Eric Davis from NFL Network, predicted that Mingo would be the NFL Rookie of the Year. He had similar reasons to mine as to why Mingo would win the award.
I suppose neither of our opinions mean much. I understand that predictions like these don't carry much weight. However--after I got over my initial disappointment of not taking Milliner--I began to think about Mingo's skill set, the talent that will be in our front seven, and Horton's schemes. It's exciting to think about.
I can see Mingo putting up huge sack numbers. That doesn't mean he is the greatest player in the world, but it does mean that he'll be an effective producer for this team. Hard to argue w/that if that is indeed what transpires.
I suppose neither of our opinions mean much. I understand that predictions like these don't carry much weight. However--after I got over my initial disappointment of not taking Milliner--I began to think about Mingo's skill set, the talent that will be in our front seven, and Horton's schemes. It's exciting to think about.
I don't think Milliner is anything special, I think good CB's seem to come up every single year, but Mingo? If this guy turns out to be good, everyone will like him more than they would have if Milliner came in and was good. Mingo is more of a unique talent if you ask me. He's not guaranteed to be anything just like any of these draft picks are.
I think he can still have a big impact, all while not playing every down. I don't think he plays a ton of plays every game, in his first year. They're going to work him in steadily.
I love that Horton has options, and a really nice rotation on the defenisve line.
Georgia linebacker Jarvis Jones is one of the bigger wild cards in the 2013 NFL Draft. He's a phenomenally athletic player and as dangerous a pass-rusher as they come. But he's got a history of spinal stenosis, and that could scare teams off.
Unless Jones is given a clean bill of healthy, anyway. Which, according to Dan Pompei of the National Football Post, is exactly what's happened.
Pompei reports that orthepedist Craig Brigham examined Jones and, in a report that was sent to NFL teams, said Jones doesn't have spinal stenosis but instead "either had a very mild incident of spinal cord concussion or merely a stinger that has long since resolved," according to the Pompei.
Brigham's report told teams that even if Jones suffered another similar injury that "it would not be a career-ending issue."
"Jarvis is cleared to play without restriction," Brigham's report concluded.
There's been a lot of back and forth recently about Jones' health, with him reportedly drawing red flags from "multiple teams" because of his health. Jones adamantly disputed that report to the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
NFLDraftScout.com learned at the combine that at least three teams still had Jones on their board and that he'd be cleared medically. The number, in reality, is much higher.
And if Dr. Brigham's report is accurate and teams buy in to what the orthopedist is preaching, there are only going to be a limited number of teams -- perhaps five or 10 -- that even have a shot at landing Jones in the first place.
Toad: When I wrote that 4.95 I did think about Suggs - but in doing so there was a reason Suggs ran slow...his agent wanting him to be attractive to 4-3 DE teams had him put on weight n neglected the speed - Jones had no reasoning behind his slow times.
DJ...man I love talking football with ya (well reading football) without the ego crapola from both of us. I think that is exactly what happened a lot of teams went back to the film n looked at it more closely. As I stated a lot of those great plays were system plays where he was untouched as you noted. NFL is different...heck the emphasis here is all RBs have to block we know that is one of the only major transitions the RBs have to go through in the NFL. Those opportunities will be far n few between. Even though he is going into a good systems D. I don't see the Harrison in him as of yet...just like Mingo - he can better himself to be a Great Player??? But you cannot teach speed
Vers...I know you were a Millner guy - that must of been tough...I think you will be happy with the McFadden kid been watching a lot of film on him we got a steal
ESPN had us as one of the Bad Drafts - Why? Cause we didn't take Eifert at #6 due to their War Room Imitation of us. McShay was the Head Scout guy, Mangini was Chud who they gave not much power in who we picked just if he liked the guy. Forgot who was Lombardi (Pioli?? totally don't remember) who made the pick....The 3 guys they had to choose from was Eifert, Cooper n another I forgot (not OLB or CB) who maybe Geno?...So Kiper stated why he had the Browns as the Bad draft in the AFC North...said we should have picked EIFERT n didn't.
Like their 5 minute pretend they are the Browns War Room was more efficient than the actual War Room
Toad - Pics on Mingo specifically...thanks - definitely this kid is going to put on some weight in a year or two (don't wish it on him right away...maybe 5-10 lbs this year) but good to know that slight looking body weighs 240...He'll be closer to 260 in a year or so! These kids love to add weight they get to have a Michael Phelps diet...what was that like a dozen eggs n pancakes for breakfast lol
Vers...Agree worst case we utilize similar to how the 49ers used Aldon Smith - but he could surprise us n be football intelligent n grasp more of what Horton wants out of the position??? We'll see but the key is for us to score on O. The more situations with us having the lead the more Passing situations we will have late in the game making Mingo more relevant if he has a limited role his rookie season!
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
haha...just saw that movie again late night like 2 nights ago...lol
I didn't associate it - Don't know why??? For some reason I keep associating his Name with a NEW Breed of Dawg....Mingo breed (I guess cause of Dingo the wild dog breed of Australia???)
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: perhaps I'm showing my age, or the fact that I'm a bit of a Sci-Fi geek, but does anyone else think "Mingo the Merciless" when you see his name?
We need some photoshopping done, me thinks
Don't know who that is, but I could go with that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: Toad - Pics on Mingo specifically...thanks - definitely this kid is going to put on some weight in a year or two (don't wish it on him right away...maybe 5-10 lbs this year) but good to know that slight looking body weighs 240...He'll be closer to 260 in a year or so!
tab, you can't teach speed but you also can't expect speed to translate when adding weight. Mingo played at 230# at LSU and, as we all know, all the effective 3-4 edge rushers go 255 at minimum. Is he going to stay fast adding 10% to his body weight? That's my primary concern with Mingo the Merciless.
Quote: Vers...Agree worst case we utilize similar to how the 49ers used Aldon Smith - but he could surprise us n be football intelligent n grasp more of what Horton wants out of the position???
Even Aldon Smith, skinny as he looked, was 255 going into the draft.
Quote: perhaps I'm showing my age, or the fact that I'm a bit of a Sci-Fi geek, but does anyone else think "Mingo the Merciless" when you see his name?
We need some photoshopping done, me thinks
Don't know who that is, but I could go with that.
You never watched Flash Gordon? Ming the Merciless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Weight does not have to mean loss of speed. Ala Suggs in his draft year...he put on a lot of weight for the combine...too much too soon. But over a length of time where you are scientifically putting on Muscle n keeping those muscles elongated with stretching regimen while adding them on. Also the diet - this isn't OL adding on weight from eating the entire menu at McDonalds (well Old school OL...you know like Chance Warmack or Andre Smith...lol ) . We are talking a scientific approach regarding Carbs n Protein intake when n where during the day n workouts. Too add on muscle n lose more Fat. You actually can get guys faster. Key is to elongate the muscle as you add - so it doesn't bunch up like a Body Builder n then tear when in use athletically. Maybe what happened with DQ in his early on Pec tears??? hard to stretch the Pecs.
I don't wish to see him 260 at camp...but next years camp it would be nice.
255 Aldon Smith - betcha coming out of training camp he was down closer to that 235 area his rookie season.
Note: I'm an agent (pretend not real ) - I got these guys eating Salty foods n saturating them with several gallons of Water for that Combine weigh in...lol You know MLB Pitchers on a hot summer night lose close to 15 lbs weight (water loss) well you can add 6-12 by over saturating for weight stuff...We want Mingo to of course be well saturated for his athletic endeavors n not cramp...but the weight gain we wish is all Muscle. He has room to put it on SCIENTIFICALLY where it will increase or help speed not hinder it.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: Even Aldon Smith, skinny as he looked, was 255 going into the draft.
Von Miller was low to mid 240s and I don't believe he has gone up a whole lot since then (in fact I think NFL.com has his weight at 237).. and he's doing ok.
I really don't see Mingo's weight as an issue.. the only issue I see is his ability to add better pass rushing technique, which is something most high draft picks lack because they are used to relying on their freakish athletics to just beat people... if he's coachable and works hard, I suspect he will be fine.
Quote: Getting back to Mingo, I'm not gonna toe the company line and play that the glass is half-full. I think he's a helluva risky pick who has a higher-than-acceptable risk of being a bust. I don't hate Mingo the way I hated Quinn and Weeden, but he's a project, and I don't like projects at #6 in an entire draft. As for Jarvis Jones I'm going to hate seeing him rack up sacks every year against us. We went for upside over production and that's dicey. I would have been much happier with Milliner or Jordan over Mingo.
I'm glad I didn't post that or it would have been about my "agenda".
But I do agree he's a project and I agree that you shouldn't draft a project #6 overall.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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