Okay, let me just start off by saying I normally wouldn't put something like this on a public forum but we're all somewhat anonymous to a certain degree so I'm fine with it. This is also the longest online space I've ever been a part of where the same members are there day after day. So while I haven't met a lot of you in person it feels like I know you in spirit. You've given me advice in the past and I know a lot of you probably have more life experience than me so maybe you can lend an ear.
Anyway, in terms of romantic relationships, I'm kind of new to them in the past couple years as it feels I've spent most of my life cultivating a career and well being for myself that I didn't take the time to devote attention to that area of my life. I have a great job, am , generally good looking( not Brad Pitt but I'm alright), in good shape, workout, and am a pretty understanding guy, have open mindedness about religion, spirituality, meditate daily, and like living my life a certain way. I have most everything I want in life but when it comes to romance I'm kind of like a rudderless ship in a way if you will.
A couple months ago I started seeing this girl who shares a lot of my views on life and the world. We are able to have these deep conversations and I really like it. She has some incredible insights that I find not everyone has. Maybe I'll say they seem mature or its like she's beyond her years in wisdom or experience. We've been going on dates, things generally go great, we hug, flirt a little, hold hands.
We had a great little evening recently, talked for hours, seemed like we were connecting well and she asked me to walk her back to her car. Generally I'm a nice guy, like to make a girl feel special, and since things were going well, that was a mental cue for me to attempt a kiss. Well anyway, I hold her close, look her in the eyes and start to lean in, she gets uncomfortable. Apparently she eludes to something that happened in her past that don't know about, I'm not sure if there was some type of prior traumatic experience there or what. Its not like I forced anything on her or got upset, I just kind of understood the circumstances for what they were...I'm not sure about everyone else, but when I get to a certain point with a person, kissing seems like a natural way to show one's affection towards another, someone you care deeply about. And let me just say, I don't have some type of ulterior motive, like if you kiss me then we have to do X or it will lead to Y. My intentions are innocent and true, I just want to show this person how much I like them.
She kind of says she wants to take things slow and this is after multiple dates. I'm not really sure what to think at this juncture. Whether this person is simply not worth the effort I'm putting in, or they can't see my generosity towards them, or perhaps they just don't reciprocate my feelings. I mean, that's fine but I think someone should be mature enough to communicate that someone else. Plus, she keeps going on dates with me..
Like I said up top, I do really like this girl, but some of her behaviors in key situations have been odd. I'm just looking for a loving relationship where I can be happy with someone and we can be there for each other. And maybe this comes down to a personal choice, but what would some of you do? Would you have a heart to heart conversation to try and figure out what's going on with her, just let her process things? I'm looking for perspective from men and woman as well. I always try and put myself in the other person's shoes to figure out what they might be thinking or feeling but I don't have their experiences so its difficult. Maybe she got hurt in the past but I'm not sure. It seems a little odd not to kiss someone you've been seeing, talking, and having great experiences with for awhile.
Should I continue trying to reach out to her? Let her come to me, and if she doesn't then that's that? If it doesn't work out then I guess its better it happen know then a year down the road right?
For starters, it wouldn't hurt to be honest with her about your feelings. Put her on the spot, and you should know pretty quickly.
However, I know one universal truth when it comes to women...and never forget this...it will never let you down...
Actions. Speak. Louder. Than. Words.
Follow that, act accordingly, and it will never let you down. Or follow this girl around like a little lost puppy dog and get the cute puppy dog treatment.
I am an old guy who had a ton of relationships w/women.
When a woman seems reluctant, it is my advice to immediately back away.
The rest is complicated. It might be a mistake to not pursue a woman who wants to be courted, but I would never, ever make a fool out of myself by chasing a woman who didn't want me. Even if we ended up together, the dynamics of the relationship would be lopsided.
We all look for someone who wants to be w/us all the time and who we want to be w/all the time. I would accept nothing less because even under those circumstances, life can throw so much crap at us that relationships are difficult.
If you've been on multiple dates and she's intimidated by an innocent kiss - that's a bit of a red flag to me. Seems strange. Yes, as Rish said, be honest about your feelings and let her know that you don't want to feel like there is an imaginary wall between you, ie... you need to know if there is a ghost from the past that will affect your relationship.
Has she been married? Kids? Those are important factors if you want good advice.
Oh dear, that can't be good (j/k). Seriously though: slow down, back off of the frequency and see (as you said) if she comes to you. If she also wants a relationship, she needs to put forth an effort. You'll know...
Oh dear, that can't be good (j/k). Seriously though: slow down, back off of the frequency and see (as you said) if she comes to you. If she also wants a relationship, she needs to put forth an effort. You'll know...
Pretty much this.
Also, don’t expect there to be more of an answer from her if you ask about what happened. Might be a lot more there, so it could take a lot more for the walls to come down. If she’s ready to let them down, she’ll let them down. If she doesn’t let them down, don’t take it too personal which I doubt you would do. Humans are complicated. Also don’t push for more of an answer if she clams up.
Both of you may just be at different points in your personal growth and that’s okay.
This is a tough one for anyone to figure out but your lack of experience makes it that much more so.
I think things boil down to one question. Why didn't she want to kiss you?
It's typically takes a lot of experience to get a good feel for what going on and even then it is easy to be wrong. So 1st piece of advice is to not jump to any conclusions. Don't make assumptions that you assume are facts when they are not.
So some thoughts regarding THE question:
1, You said that you have been on going on dates. Did she know these were dates? Is it possible that she thought you 2 were hanging out as friends and when you went in for the kiss it caught her off guard?
2, How old is she? Could it be that despite seeming worldly wise in conversation that she is very innocent in relationships? Could it be possible that this would have been her 1st kiss? Or perhaps the number of people she has kissed is still in single digits and the prior weren't good or the person she kissed told her that she wasn't a good kisser.
3, Maybe she was feeling self conscious about her breath.
4, Maybe she has been dating someone else in a non committed relationship but likes you and feels guilty about things.
5, You said some of her behaviors in key situations have been odd". That implies that there have been other odd behaviors. Can you share any of those with us?
6, Maybe she used to be a boy, or is still a boy and in the process of converting and is afraid to tell you but respects you enough to want to tell you before kissing you.
7, Could be a weird religion thing.
8, Hopefully this one isn't the reason but she could be a true #metoo. Maybe it was someone that she had started to date and things went bad. Maybe she hasn't gotten over that yet.
9, Hopefully this isn't the case either but perhaps she just isn't that into you.
I tried to be as inclusive as possible with potential reasons (see #6) but I am sure someone can come up with other reasons. I do think Rish is right that actions speak louder than words. But the risk in that is that sometimes there are valid reasons for their behavior and we assume something then misinterpret the action. However, repeated actions do need some 'splainin'.
Rish also said "follow this girl around like a little lost puppy dog and get the cute puppy dog treatment." Vers said the same thing in a different way. Regardless of what women say, women want men to be men. If you follow a girl around begging for attention it will turn her off.
I see 3 ways to proceed going forward. Each has it's plusses and minuses.
1, Back way off. This let's you know that she really is into to you if she becomes the pursuer. The down side is some women are old fashioned and will never be a pursuer. If she does pursue you, it will take much longer than you would expect and if you like her as much as it sounds like you do, you will feel miserable waiting and odds are that you will end up puppy dogging her before you get to that point. Should you be able to hold out and she doesn't put the moves on you then you will be left with a lot of what if's in your head. I find that this really only works if you really don't care if she turns around and chases after you or not.
2, Keep going the way that you are and see how things play out. If you do this she sees that you are willing to put in the effort and are confident enough that you handled the situation like a man. The difficulty of this is that you have to block out what happened otherwise you will end up acting weird and that will screw everything up. Instead of showing her that you are a real man, you end up showing her that you are a whiny little puppy. All of us fall into one of 2 categories. We either don't care that much about her or we are whiny little puppy. What separates out the men from the pups is how well they are able to hide their puppy-ness. It isn't easy and the more you like her the harder it is too hide.
The other difficult thing with this is that at some point you will have to go in for the kiss again. Too early and she thinks you don't respect her , or that you "just don't get her". Wait too long and the opportunity can pass you by, she starts thinking that you aren't that interested in her and she eventually moves on to someone else, even though she really did like you.
3, Bring it up and talk to her about it. Broaching the subject is difficult and will be uncomfortable for you and for her. You have to find a way to say that you like her and that you are cool with waiting - if she is interested in you. But if she isn't interested in you that that's cool too. You might also have to find a way to let her know that if she isn't ready to talk about her reasons just yet that that is okay too. And you have to find way to do it in which you come across strong and in control which is really difficult to do. It is so so easy to come across as that puppy. And puppies get put in the friend zone.
You have to look at yourself and figure out which method works for you. For me, I have had success with method 1 but typically only with girls who I would like to pursue me but if they don't then I don't really care that much. Method 3 works if you do it well whether it works or not. If she is interested then she respects you for being straightforward if she doesn't like you then you find that out and can accept it, deal with it, and move on. This is very high risk because if you do it poorly then it can go horribly wrong and a girl who really likes you can all of a sudden look at you in a completely new light - and that is not a good one.
I tend to go with method 2. I just play it cool and see how things play out. Usually her feelings become self evident. If not, you can always transition to Method 1 or 3. But once you do 1 or 3 that is the endgame, one way or the other. And make a conscious effort not to change the frequency with which you text her, call her, or ask her out. That means don't increase or decrease the frequency.
Last thing, if this were a Rom-Com, you would do some grand gesture of like sending her 97 roses to her at work (one for each day that you have known her), or you would serenade her and this would win her over. Rom-Com's do this because women think this is what they want. In real like this works about 1/100,000 times it is done. From what you told us, she doesn't seem like incredibly insecure woman that this would work on. So in short - DON'T do this. The vast majority of the time it will have opposite the intended effect. Grand gestures are better off left for when you are secure in a relationship and know that you both have strong feeling for each other.
Phew, I feel like I just gave birth -> to Dr Phil. Anyway, hope this makes sense and is helpful. If not, try having a beer or 6 and re-reading it. These conversations are always better done over a few beers. Hopefully others can add the thoughts/opinions and perhaps a few other approaches.
I’m not going to say anything that the other guys haven’t mentioned. It’s clear that there’s “something” there between you ... whether that’s close friendship or romance ... so that also means backing off isn’t going to kill your chances IMO. I’d probably let her be the one to reach out (chances are she’s thinking about it as much as you are).
It may be that she is “seeing” someone else and is sorting things out in her own mind. It may be that she’s just as inexperienced as you, so it’s not natural for her yet.
I definitely would not ramp up your pursuits or make some grand gesture ... let it simmer a bit and see what her actions are.
I have learned that if you have to go on a message board for relationship advice, you will never have a relationship.
Just kidding around man.
Honesty is the best policy. Just be honest and it goes where it is supposed to go. Relationships aren't like a product you can manufacture. They just develop. If you try too hard, you look like Jim Carrey.
Some good advice here, the only thing I can add is that relationships require effort from both parties.
Take a look at your time together and be sure you weren't blinded by the infatuation, and that you both were putting in effort. I have seen many friends, men and women, put in all the effort and think they had a great relationship, only to have it collapse, and in retrospect they realized they were the only ones putting in effort.
Yea cause I’ve dated white, black, and Latino American women.
And the only difference between any of them are the hair products in the bathroom. I wasn’t expecting my wife to lock my ass down that quickly in Germany, but 12 years of marriage later, here we are.
I hate to be overly blunt but women here will push away from dudes if you’re giving off way too many “nice guy” vibes. So, TB, I dunno. As long as you aren’t giving off those vibes like the dudes who whine about women not dating them cause of the friend zone rhetoric, then you aren’t the problem.
I dated this one woman before who unfortunately was abused when she was a kid. Then the first time she let her emotional walk down and dated this dude in college, he ended up abusing her as well. So when we got together, it was like trying to *emotionally* penetrate iron man’s armor.
So if homegirl is talking about something in her past keeping her from making the leap, the best thing to do is simply be there. She clearly enjoys having you around, especially since you listen. If y’all ever link up again, don’t even bother trying to kiss her or cuddle up. She’ll give you hints if it’s time to go in for the kill.
My bad, I mean take it to the next level.
Seriously though, if y’all have chemistry to the point that you two talk non stop for hours, then you need to understand something:
It might not be you, but what you potentially represent. That probably scares her.
If she’s been burned by too many dudes, and/or something happened back in the day, then her defenses is something you’re just gonna have to deal with if you really like this woman. She’s got her guard up for a reason.
Your job is to now peel back those layers ever so gently and see what’s up. You could find that she was well worth waiting for, or maybe have to many issues for you to be in a relationship with.
One thing you never do is throw up the deuces. If you’ll bounce out that quickly over her uncomfortableness, imagine what she’ll think about you long term when the relationship actually gets complex.
NO STOP! my first reaction to your post, was to advise meditation on anything other than God, or the Word of God, is spiritually dangerous.
Have u, or has anyone ever known me to do the right thing? no! so!
Here's what I wouldn't do, and so what I suggest you do.
Well, tell her some flake on a message board told you to do this.
Be indignant! 1. Ask her why her other BF is such an a-H 2. Tell her if she doesn't want you you'll get with her friends- (got that from DR. Dre and Snoop 3. Tell her if she really is hurting you'll be there for her, but she can't continue to lead you on like this, no more talking for hours. hours? (?? really, was this really?)
4. Storm off, scream female dog after far away!
Oh and don't forget to ask if the other dude is better looking than you sometime earlier.
see, 3rd person I'd know what to do, pfft! Good luck, and 5, it's pretty much over, I'm guessing accept it and move on; but leave like a boss!
There has been a lot of advice that has been given and a lot of it seems pretty logical. So I'm not going to attempt to add to it. But I will make a comment about something in your post. You mentioned having a heart to heart talk with her. Now that's a question you have to answer for yourself. But let me ask you this.
Do you see it as a possibility that if you don't have a heart to heart talk with her about this, that in the future you may be looking back asking yourself what might have been if you would have had that conversation?
If you feel your answer may be yes, I would suggest you strongly consider having that conversation. Looking back over your shoulder wondering what might have been is something nobody wants to live with.
Step 1 - try your very best to take a mental break from her. Thinking too much about it will stress you (and then her) out about the whole thing.
Step 1.5 - Give her some space for a little bit. If you've been making all the effort, and then she says it's time to slow things down, then do just that. It's tough to do when you're really into someone, but it's important. She could be thinking you're one of those guys that are too clingy, or she might need to think about how she feels about you... or she might be trying to lead you on.... if it's any of those things, giving her ample space is the solution. I'm not talking about ghosting her, just making your presence in her day-to-day significantly less.
Step 2 - Have that hear-to-heart. After you've sorta made yourself scarce for a little bit, then ask for that conversation. It's best to have it after the cooling off period. Whichever way the relationship goes, having this convo will help either give you closure, or clear the air and allow the relationship to progress along.
I am an old guy who had a ton of relationships w/women.
When a woman seems reluctant, it is my advice to immediately back away.
The rest is complicated. It might be a mistake to not pursue a woman who wants to be courted, but I would never, ever make a fool out of myself by chasing a woman who didn't want me. Even if we ended up together, the dynamics of the relationship would be lopsided.
We all look for someone who wants to be w/us all the time and who we want to be w/all the time. I would accept nothing less because even under those circumstances, life can throw so much crap at us that relationships are difficult.
This is almost exactly what I would have typed out.
Tons of relationships of all varying lengths and intensities. Married once, likely going to get married again. All before age 40 LOL.
I would ask....are paying for everything on these dates? If yes, time to back off, it may be just dinner for her.
My advice in general for men wanting to date women is, be true to who you are. What I mean by that is I know that me, BPG, personally am a force of nature, I am very strong willed, I don't take any [censored] from anyone, man or woman. So I know that it would be foolish of me to let a woman think that she could go unchecked. A lot of guys fall into this at first only to get comfortable and revert to who they actually are. So it's cliche but own what you are and if she don't like it, see ya later.
A rule of thumb is, if she seems too busy or unavailable, she isn't into it. She will let you know when she's interested. We used to say if she don't reciprocate....next. I mean down to the smallest detail....if she is taking hours to text me back and it's one word and I am carrying the conversation.....I'm not texting that person anymore.
Dating sucks, it's expensive, it's frustrating but it's all worthwhile if you catch the flames.
Lots of good advice in this thread. They all kind of mesh together. You just have to figure out how to blend them together and figure out what works for you.
This is a tough one for anyone to figure out but your lack of experience makes it that much more so.
I think things boil down to one question. Why didn't she want to kiss you?
It's typically takes a lot of experience to get a good feel for what going on and even then it is easy to be wrong. So 1st piece of advice is to not jump to any conclusions. Don't make assumptions that you assume are facts when they are not.
So some thoughts regarding THE question:
1, You said that you have been on going on dates. Did she know these were dates? Is it possible that she thought you 2 were hanging out as friends and when you went in for the kiss it caught her off guard?
2, How old is she? Could it be that despite seeming worldly wise in conversation that she is very innocent in relationships? Could it be possible that this would have been her 1st kiss? Or perhaps the number of people she has kissed is still in single digits and the prior weren't good or the person she kissed told her that she wasn't a good kisser.
3, Maybe she was feeling self conscious about her breath.
4, Maybe she has been dating someone else in a non committed relationship but likes you and feels guilty about things.
5, You said some of her behaviors in key situations have been odd". That implies that there have been other odd behaviors. Can you share any of those with us?
6, Maybe she used to be a boy, or is still a boy and in the process of converting and is afraid to tell you but respects you enough to want to tell you before kissing you.
7, Could be a weird religion thing.
8, Hopefully this one isn't the reason but she could be a true #metoo. Maybe it was someone that she had started to date and things went bad. Maybe she hasn't gotten over that yet.
9, Hopefully this isn't the case either but perhaps she just isn't that into you.
I tried to be as inclusive as possible with potential reasons (see #6) but I am sure someone can come up with other reasons. I do think Rish is right that actions speak louder than words. But the risk in that is that sometimes there are valid reasons for their behavior and we assume something then misinterpret the action. However, repeated actions do need some 'splainin'.
Rish also said "follow this girl around like a little lost puppy dog and get the cute puppy dog treatment." Vers said the same thing in a different way. Regardless of what women say, women want men to be men. If you follow a girl around begging for attention it will turn her off.
I see 3 ways to proceed going forward. Each has it's plusses and minuses.
1, Back way off. This let's you know that she really is into to you if she becomes the pursuer. The down side is some women are old fashioned and will never be a pursuer. If she does pursue you, it will take much longer than you would expect and if you like her as much as it sounds like you do, you will feel miserable waiting and odds are that you will end up puppy dogging her before you get to that point. Should you be able to hold out and she doesn't put the moves on you then you will be left with a lot of what if's in your head. I find that this really only works if you really don't care if she turns around and chases after you or not.
2, Keep going the way that you are and see how things play out. If you do this she sees that you are willing to put in the effort and are confident enough that you handled the situation like a man. The difficulty of this is that you have to block out what happened otherwise you will end up acting weird and that will screw everything up. Instead of showing her that you are a real man, you end up showing her that you are a whiny little puppy. All of us fall into one of 2 categories. We either don't care that much about her or we are whiny little puppy. What separates out the men from the pups is how well they are able to hide their puppy-ness. It isn't easy and the more you like her the harder it is too hide.
The other difficult thing with this is that at some point you will have to go in for the kiss again. Too early and she thinks you don't respect her , or that you "just don't get her". Wait too long and the opportunity can pass you by, she starts thinking that you aren't that interested in her and she eventually moves on to someone else, even though she really did like you.
3, Bring it up and talk to her about it. Broaching the subject is difficult and will be uncomfortable for you and for her. You have to find a way to say that you like her and that you are cool with waiting - if she is interested in you. But if she isn't interested in you that that's cool too. You might also have to find a way to let her know that if she isn't ready to talk about her reasons just yet that that is okay too. And you have to find way to do it in which you come across strong and in control which is really difficult to do. It is so so easy to come across as that puppy. And puppies get put in the friend zone.
You have to look at yourself and figure out which method works for you. For me, I have had success with method 1 but typically only with girls who I would like to pursue me but if they don't then I don't really care that much. Method 3 works if you do it well whether it works or not. If she is interested then she respects you for being straightforward if she doesn't like you then you find that out and can accept it, deal with it, and move on. This is very high risk because if you do it poorly then it can go horribly wrong and a girl who really likes you can all of a sudden look at you in a completely new light - and that is not a good one.
I tend to go with method 2. I just play it cool and see how things play out. Usually her feelings become self evident. If not, you can always transition to Method 1 or 3. But once you do 1 or 3 that is the endgame, one way or the other. And make a conscious effort not to change the frequency with which you text her, call her, or ask her out. That means don't increase or decrease the frequency.
Last thing, if this were a Rom-Com, you would do some grand gesture of like sending her 97 roses to her at work (one for each day that you have known her), or you would serenade her and this would win her over. Rom-Com's do this because women think this is what they want. In real like this works about 1/100,000 times it is done. From what you told us, she doesn't seem like incredibly insecure woman that this would work on. So in short - DON'T do this. The vast majority of the time it will have opposite the intended effect. Grand gestures are better off left for when you are secure in a relationship and know that you both have strong feeling for each other.
Phew, I feel like I just gave birth -> to Dr Phil. Anyway, hope this makes sense and is helpful. If not, try having a beer or 6 and re-reading it. These conversations are always better done over a few beers. Hopefully others can add the thoughts/opinions and perhaps a few other approaches.
Wow, that was quite the post, thank you for being all inclusive with your explanations. And to your point of why she didn't kiss me, that's the internal question I'm asking because everything else appears to be great.
1. I would assume so, I make it a point on purpose to call them dates, I don't ask her to hang out. I try and make our dates romantic in nature.
2. She's 31 years old. That is a possibility about being innocent and newer to relationships. I never thought of this, but if I were someone who let's say didn't have a lot of experience in dating and relationships, I don't, but if I wanted to not make that known or worried about it I can think how someone might overcompensate in other areas of conversation to make it appear they have a lot of knowledge when in fact they do not. And yeah, it could be any of those reasons about not being a good kisser. I mean I wouldn't say I'm bad but if someone told me they weren't too experienced in that sort of thing I'd be flattered that they'd tell me that much and share the information.
3. Honestly I'm not sure.
4. This could very well be the case. I mean if I were in her shoes and I really liked someone the last thing I'd want to do is hurt them.
5. Yes, some of the other odd behaviors include being apprehensive about being in my car alone with me. Having me pick her up from her place to go on a date, etc. I've driven her a couple of times but that behavior gave me a very odd vibe. And I don't mean just like the first date either, it's like at this juncture. I'm not sure if that eludes to some sort of physical unwanted trauma in her past life or what. I mean there's no reason to be afraid of me doing something like that but I've never had those possible experiences so I just don't know...
6. Honestly I'm not sure how I'd react to that. I guess if I really liked the person for who they were I wouldn't care, just as long as they were know a woman. That's an interesting take.
7. Hmmmmm, for this girl she's actually not super religious in a traditional sense at least. She's more spiritual I would say, or at least more open.
8. I really hope that's not the reason. I just have honest intentions and I want to kiss her to show my affection. That # movement would be an interesting shift, hopefully it's not that. Honestly I wouldn't want to date someone that overgeneralizes a subject like that to all men anyway. To me that's shortsighted of someone.
9. Hopefully that's not the case. If it somehow is, I would just find it perplexing as we keep going on dates. I mean I'm a guy so I'd like to think my natural default thinking is logical so that wouldn't make sense to me anyway. If I didn't like a girl and I wasn't into her, I wouldn't keep seeing her.
Wow, your methods are so nuanced. I can tell you're experienced and you've done this before! I guess maybe that's what comes in terms of relationship experience and as years go by. I do like a lot of what you say and I think its valid.
I am pretty firm on what I'm looking for, which is a loving relationship and if I feel my romantic feelings aren't being reciprocated to my satisfaction then it almost feels like mental anguish to continue forward. You know? God forbid if she says, "I just want to be friends." I don't think I'd ever do that because I have particular feelings towards her and always see her in that way so it wouldn't work.
With everything you wrote I feel like I have a mini arsanel of methods to think about and possible apply. Thank you for your honest answers and being so forth wright. I'll have to let you know what happens.
Normally I'm the type of person who doesn't play any sort of games, is not super desperate, but likes to communicate my feelings honestly. I mean I don't expect anything from someone necessarily, except respect if I treat them with such.
When she briefly spoke up about something in her past, I didn't push or delve into it with her. I kind of played the role of I'm here for you if you want to talk about it. If not that's alright too, whatever you're comfortable with. She liked that.
On all accounts she seems like a great women. We seem to agree on a lot of various different things and I do like her. So I mean I'd be prepared to try and make an effort to help her through whatever it is she might be dealing with, there for support. Usually I want to be there for those types of conversations and I want to have them. I know from my limited experience though, there seem to be a lot of people who "run" when the tough get going. I know I'm not like that but I've met many who are.
This is also very good input. I feel like I would like to have the conversation with her and talk about whatever it is that may be bothering her. I'd definitely like to have it than not and then wonder about it some time down the road.
I think she's worth it to delve deeper and have those type of heart to hearts. But no joke, I feel like sometimes to figure this stuff out I have to have a psychology degree. I told that to someone else and they said if its clear you two like each other the same way then a relationship naturally isn't that difficult.
I am just glad that I am not a young adult dating today. I would want a birth certificate, baptismal certificate, and sworn statement from both parents as to the birth gender of their child.
5. Yes, some of the other odd behaviors include being apprehensive about being in my car alone with me. Having me pick her up from her place to go on a date, etc. I've driven her a couple of times but that behavior gave me a very odd vibe. And I don't mean just like the first date either, it's like at this juncture. I'm not sure if that eludes to some sort of physical unwanted trauma in her past life or what. I mean there's no reason to be afraid of me doing something like that but I've never had those possible experiences so I just don't know...
This really makes me wonder if she did have a bad #metoo experience that she is still trying to get over. If this is the case you need to tread lightly in talking about it. It is really hard for women to open up about this kind of stuff. So there is a very good chance she says she doesn't want to talk about it. If she does, the appropriate response is "I understand" in a caring empathetic tone. Then judge the situation for the appropriateness of giving her a hug. If unsure don't but there is a good chance that she will hug you. If a hug does occur just hold her with a strong (but not squeezing) protective hug. Resist the inclination to go in for a kiss.
If she does tell you, be caring, empathetic and non judgmental. Do more listening than talking. The hug comment above applies here too.
8. I really hope that's not the reason. I just have honest intentions and I want to kiss her to show my affection. That # movement would be an interesting shift, hopefully it's not that. Honestly I wouldn't want to date someone that overgeneralizes a subject like that to all men anyway. To me that's shortsighted of someone.
If she is a true #metoo victim your take is wrong. She is not consciously generalizing to all men. In her head she knows that isn't the case and probably knows that you are not the kind of guy who would do such a thing. If she didn't feel that way about you then she wouldn't be hanging out with you. BUT, when she gets into those type situations you describe, it brings back these horrible visceral feelings that she has no control over.
But if this is the case, be aware that you will need to take things really slowly and be extremely patient. Eventually she will learn to deal with it but it will take a long time. It sounds as if you like her a lot and that you would be up for it but it won't be easy.
And if this is the case, when you finally have sex be prepared for her to freak out in an unpredictable way. The best is that she starts sobbing uncontrollably. Then you just hold her until she falls asleep and be there when she wakes up. But she might suddenly become very distant or even angry. The anger isn't at you it's at that [censored} responsible and at her guilt but it will feel like it is directed towards you. If she becomes angry or distant or both you are in for a tough road for a while
I think you have provided a ton of great insight and advice on this thread. I want to address this particular one because I have some experience w/it.
Quote:
5. Yes, some of the other odd behaviors include being apprehensive about being in my car alone with me. Having me pick her up from her place to go on a date, etc. I've driven her a couple of times but that behavior gave me a very odd vibe. And I don't mean just like the first date either, it's like at this juncture. I'm not sure if that eludes to some sort of physical unwanted trauma in her past life or what. I mean there's no reason to be afraid of me doing something like that but I've never had those possible experiences so I just don't know...
This really makes me wonder if she did have a bad #metoo experience that she is still trying to get over. If this is the case you need to tread lightly in talking about it. It is really hard for women to open up about this kind of stuff. So there is a very good chance she says she doesn't want to talk about it. If she does, the appropriate response is "I understand" in a caring empathetic tone. Then judge the situation for the appropriateness of giving her a hug. If unsure don't but there is a good chance that she will hug you. If a hug does occur just hold her with a strong (but not squeezing) protective hug. Resist the inclination to go in for a kiss.
If she does tell you, be caring, empathetic and non judgmental. Do more listening than talking. The hug comment above applies here too.
My wife was a victim of sexual assaults. The offending party was a family member. Consequently, she always distrusted men.
It took quite awhile before she shared any of this w/me. I did not push her for details. I didn't kiss her [obviously] or even try to hug her. I simply grabbed her hand and said: "I will never push you to talk about this, but I will always be here to listen shall you need me." I also said: "I will always protect you to the best of my ability."
Words are cheap. Actions speak louder. Situations such as these take a lot of time. Trust must be earned over the course of time. One must be consistent in their actions to help build that trust.
I think you nailed it when you talked about listening. Once, you get them to talk.........just listen. Nod your head. Eyes are alert because you really do care. Make little noises of concern or understanding or even approval when you see the pleading in her eyes. Only offer advice if asked. I never ever judged the "whys" of how it happened. I wasn't there and I don't even understand how someone can do such a thing. I just offered my unwavering support for her as a person and tried to always send messages of how much I believed in her and loved her.
It's not something that all can pull off. If you are selfish, you probably don't have the resolve to help such a person. Ego over id for your Freud folks.
Thanks, but no bro. I am the one who is lucky to have her in my life.
I don't know if I have ever met a stronger, determined, honest person in my entire life. She really is an incredible woman. She has overcome so many things, yet she is still such a loving and caring mother and person.
Not trying to force you to speak up, but too many women are sexually assaulted and the damages can be catastrophic. Stories of support, overcoming the abuse, or lingering effects are important.
Knowledge of a subject leads to better understanding and hopefully.............prevention.
As I see it, it's time to ask her where she sees this thing heading.
It sounds as if you are open to the idea of further exploring this relationship if she seems amenable. You have to find out if that's where she might want to go, as well.
Without a clear understanding of where each of you may be, it's impossible to chart the next few steps.
Ask her, up-front. Don't be bold or confrontational about it, just tell her where you are, where you think this might go, and ask her if she feels the same.
Let her answer guide your next 2 or 3 steps.
I can't see any other way to approach this, if I found myself in the same sitch.
Thanks, but no bro. I am the one who is lucky to have her in my life.
I don't know if I have ever met a stronger, determined, honest person in my entire life. She really is an incredible woman. She has overcome so many things, yet she is still such a loving and caring mother and person.
You can both be lucky Thay's the makings of a good relationship. Both people feel lucky and show their appreciation for the other person.
As I see it, it's time to ask her where she sees this thing heading.
It sounds as if you are open to the idea of further exploring this relationship if she seems amenable. You have to find out if that's where she might want to go, as well.
Without a clear understanding of where each of you may be, it's impossible to chart the next few steps.
Ask her, up-front. Don't be bold or confrontational about it, just tell her where you are, where you think this might go, and ask her if she feels the same.
Let her answer guide your next 2 or 3 steps.
I can't see any other way to approach this, if I found myself in the same sitch.
Just have an honest conversation with her about what she is looking for.
Her intentions.
Dont put the pressure on. Just ask what dating goals she has. What she wants for her life.
Good in theory but how do you ask that without putting pressure on her? Especially after the awkward situation they had. She will feel pressured, there is no way around it.
The only way I can see it from the perspective of being asked that question before is to say something like: and as I type it out I am already feeling awkward and pressured.
Would love for you to share more details on how you would initiate that conversation without making her feel pressured.
Just have an honest conversation with her about what she is looking for.
Her intentions.
Dont put the pressure on. Just ask what dating goals she has. What she wants for her life.
Good in theory but how do you ask that without putting pressure on her? Especially after the awkward situation they had. She will feel pressured, there is no way around it.
The only way I can see it from the perspective of being asked that question before is to say something like: and as I type it out I am already feeling awkward and pressured.
Would love for you to share more details on how you would initiate that conversation without making her feel pressured.
Well, it depends on how they met. Context means everythings.
Its totally different if:
They met at the gym.
They met at the bar.
They met at work.
They met at church.
They met on a dating site.
Context is every thing. They could just be hanging out as friends. Maybe he has different ideas than she does. I been there.
So he should just ask her about what she is looking for in life. And relationships.
He said that they have been seeing each other fr a couple months so I think how they met isn't so significant. But I would take any one example that works. Then I could reverse engineer it to fit the other situations.
The only way I see this conversation not creating pressure is if the person you broach the subject with has had this on their mind already and she is wondering where this is going and just waiting for you to bring it up.
Unfortunately, you don't know that they are waiting on it, otherwise you really wouldn't need to ask.
Not trying to give you a hard time. I truly would love to know. And if we want tastybrownies to have this conversation with her without making her feel pressured, then I think we should give him some guidance on how to do so. I am fairly experienced with women and don't have a clue on how to do that. Tasty says that he is inexperienced. How do we expect him to just know how to do it?
He said that they have been seeing each other fr a couple months so I think how they met isn't so significant. But I would take any one example that works. Then I could reverse engineer it to fit the other situations.
The only way I see this conversation not creating pressure is if the person you broach the subject with has had this on their mind already and she is wondering where this is going and just waiting for you to bring it up.
Unfortunately, you don't know that they are waiting on it, otherwise you really wouldn't need to ask.
Not trying to give you a hard time. I truly would love to know. And if we want tastybrownies to have this conversation with her without making her feel pressured, then I think we should give him some guidance on how to do so. I am fairly experienced with women and don't have a clue on how to do that. Tasty says that he is inexperienced. How do we expect him to just know how to do it?
It makes a big difference how they met.
What if they met at work? Or at church? Or via friends? Or a dating site?
Each has different considerations.
Its ok to ask what the other is looking for in life.
Without pressuring them for a certain answer.
He doesnt have to pressure, but she will know his intentions by asking and that could be good enough. So she can get a hint.
I'll give you this. Meeting on a dating app does change a few things.
1st, no way she doesn't know these were dates 2nd, it decreases the likelihood that she is struggling with a #metoo issue 3rd, it significantly increases the likelihood that she is dating multiple guys
It is generally understood though mostly an unsaid rule that if you meet on a dating app that you both are meeting multiple people. Though being a couple months in is confusing.
When I meet a girl on a dating app. I like to prep for these conversations in a few ways. Sometimes one, sometimes the other, sometimes all. On the 2nd date I might say something like, so we met on a dating app, I am sure a lot of guys are trying to match with you. I just want you to know that if you are out on a date with another guy and I walk into the bar with my buddies, I'll just give you a head nod and head to the other side of the bar. I won't make scene or do anything to make you feel uncomfortable. Depending on how playful our relationship is, I might throw in a, I can't say I won't be bummed out about it, but I'd understand and be cool about it. Implied in this is that she might walk in on you on a date with another girl and she should act the same way.
On the 3rd or 4th date, I will say something like, I'm really enjoying hanging out with you and I am going to be taking down my profile because at this point I am not interested in meeting anybody new. I don't ask her to take her profile down, I just say it matter of factly. But I can't think of a time that I have done this and she hasn't volunteered that she was going to take hers down too. After this you do take your profile down. If you don't she will notice. I can almost guarantee that she will have her friends try and find you on there. This isn't for tasty because he seems like a standup dude, but more just for the conversation. I have several female friends who have been dating a guy they met on a dating app and they think things are going well and think they are exclusive despite not having had the conversation about it but the guy still has his profile active and the girls want to know what this means. They have not had a talk about taking their profiles down but the guys give them the strong impression that they are the only one. The girls will frequently ask their guy about it and invariably they say, oh, I forgot to take it down. Any single girls reading this, know that they didn't forget to take it down. For you married guys who have never been on a dating app, these things send you frequent reminders even if you haven't been active on it. And some of them let people know when you were last active. Or the girl will have her friend message you from that friends profile and see how you respond.
Several points with this statement. I say not interested in meeting anyone new not I am not interested in dating anyone else. This does a couple things. One, it lets her know you are interested but doesn't jump to an exclusive relationship so it doesn't pressure her. Second, if she says that she is taking hers down too, or even if she doesn't it lets you know where you stand with her. 3rd, there may be a 2nd girl that you are still trying to sort things out with and this gives you a little time. Because let's be frank. Dating apps are designed for you to meet a lot of people. If you want, you could have a date every night of the week with a different girl. But doing that sabotages all the relationships because you never get the chance to really develop any of them. But "meet" gives you time to clean things up. If there is a 2nd or a 3rd girl you will want to break things off with them if the girl you said this too also takes down her profile. If she doesn't then you might want to re-evaluate how you view the girls. Lastly, it also eases your way to the exclusivity discussion down the road.
I feel like I am rambling and losing focus. I feel like I am trying to help out tasty (both now and in the future) and explain somethings to the older married guys who are not familiar with dating apps and I am crossing my streams (just watched Ghostbusters last night).
So we're still both talking to each other in a friendly manner, which I think is a positive sign. She seems willing to continue and we both agreed to meet tomorrow in person and have a discussion.
At this point she seems friendly, but after what happened I have trouble trusting whether or not their words match their actions. We shall see....I think it's important to talk about what happened and why she felt uncomfortable about it. If there is a prior issue I don't want it to stand in the way of us possibly developing a healthy relationship.
I plan on letting her speak first but I will bring it up if she doesn't.
As I see it, it's time to ask her where she sees this thing heading.
It sounds as if you are open to the idea of further exploring this relationship if she seems amenable. You have to find out if that's where she might want to go, as well.
Without a clear understanding of where each of you may be, it's impossible to chart the next few steps.
Ask her, up-front. Don't be bold or confrontational about it, just tell her where you are, where you think this might go, and ask her if she feels the same.
Let her answer guide your next 2 or 3 steps.
I can't see any other way to approach this, if I found myself in the same sitch.
This. Just dont pressure her.
I agree. It's there or it's not.
You can't manufacture a relationship. It happens or it doesn't. If the other person, woman or man isn't feeling it, it just isn't going to happen.
Relationships are as much about timing as anything else. Both people have to be ready. I don't buy this idea that there is only 1 person in the world for you. My wife and I love each other, but had we not had like minds at the time we met, it wouldn't have happened. We might have found somebody 3 blocks away.
There are millions of women who would have loved me....a joke, but in a way it's true. It's all about timing. It's about a Guy and Gal who are ready to settle in, and they find somebody they like, thinks the same, meets their needs.....you get it.
If you live in NY and your "real" match is in Tokyo it's not like you are going to go through life alone unless you choose, and it isn't even taking 2nd best.
There are a lot of great people in this world. Most of us find a match. You just have to sift around until you find a person of right mind who is a good completion of the process.
As Males and Females, I believe we are only half human. Only until we bond do we complete the circle of life and become complete humans.
I am only half a person without my wife. I need her rudder. I think she needs mine. Sometimes the woman needs to set the direction, sometimes the man does.
A true union understands that. Sometimes it's best for the woman to make the call, sometimes it's best for the man to make the call. We have to understand that. We think differently.
It takes both of us to get it right. Without the other side, we'll both have it balled up one way or the other. Work together in union, you might have a shot.
It takes both. It's why men and women need each other.
I think the most important thing to ask is if you want to be with her for the rest of your life... if that's the case then you need to be in it for the long haul... if it's more just dating then that's different
I actually had a very similar situation when I was in my early 20s... had a strong relationship with a girl but when we got physical the first couple of times she flipped out... at the time I had no idea what was going on and eventually I broke up with her before we had a chance to talk... looking back I realize now that she was sexually abused and I wasn't mature enough to see it at the time or have the patience to talk to her about it...
when I was dating my wife she was actually similar... this time I recognized it and we talked about it... we didn't go into details at the time (she still hasn't shared all the details but I don't need to know them all). While we were dating I told her I wanted to hug her, hold her hand, and kiss her but we would wait for anything more until we were married and she was ready... we probably still don't have as physical a relationship as I would like... but I never want to do anything to make her uncomfortable... and frankly its just one piece of our relationship
so if you want a long term relationship you need to talk about it somewhat... but don't push her... she obviously was extremely traumatize by some asshat... just tell her that you want to have a strong relationship, you'd like to be more physical but the relationship is more important... so when she's ready to talk or be physical you'll be there for her...
[color:#FFCC66] I'll give you this. Meeting on a dating app does change a few things.
1st, no way she doesn't know these were dates 2nd, it decreases the likelihood that she is struggling with a #metoo issue 3rd, it significantly increases the likelihood that she is dating multiple guys
1st point I totally agree on...
2nd point I disagree.... just because she's on a dating site doesn't mean that she's dealing with past trauma... it's ignorant to think so
3rd point I disagree.... she might be talking to lots of guys and going on a date... but not 'dating' a lot of guys.... I guess its more of a distinction for me... on dating sites you talk with a lot of people but you're not dating a lot (like going on multiple dates).
And for background... I met my wife on a dating site...
2, I said less likely not saying that she definitely isn't 2, also said that she is less likely still struggling - meaning that it could have happened but is at least far enough back and dealt with internally enough for her to feel ready to get back into it - though she could have thought she was ready and actually isn't
3, When I said "dating multiple guys" I meant dating Tasty and a 2nd guy. I should have been more clear. And again, i said increases the likelihood. None of this is definitive. At this point it is just trying to figure out the odds of which tasty is going to be dealing with.
I think the most important thing to ask is if you want to be with her for the rest of your life... if that's the case then you need to be in it for the long haul... if it's more just dating then that's different
Agree with a slight tweak. I don't think he has to know that he wants to be with her the rest of his life. After all, they have only known each other a couple months. I think the question should be, does he think he could potentially want to spend the rest of his life with her.
From tasty's earlier posts, I get the impression that his answer would be yes.
great post... I read awhile back that marriage isn't 50/50... it's 100/100... it takes two fully committed and willing to work on the relationship...
I love that quote. I first heard in a radio interview of Dan Reeve's about his book. My recollection is of him saying something along the lines of:
If anyone tells you marriage is a 50/50 proposition, they're lying. It's 100%/100% because marriage is hard and if both people are not completely committed it won't work out
For the second point I still disagree somewhat... I think we are both on same page... but I still think that just because someone is dating that doesn't mean that they aren't dealing with past hurts.... you are probably right that they have dealt with or buried those feelings... but that's lifelong trauma and you never know when it gets brought up
my wife and I have a great relationship...we've worked hard at it... she also has had a lot of counseling to deal with her rape.... but there are still times when a smell or touch will bring her right back to that moment....
yeah it was eye opening the first time I heard it... we went through a program called Re-Engage a few years back that was really great too... really talked about how each spouse really needs to focus on themselves and (since it was Christian based) his/her relationship with God... as my relationship with God and focus on what I can do better improved... our marriage improved...
yeah I agree... I went back and re-read a few of your posts and think we basically believe the same thing...
back to the primary post... hope the chat goes well... agree with what eve said above though... don't push her... think you need to be honest and open but can't push her... also, again, need to know what you want out of the relationship....
Again, I just wanted to say thanks for everyone's input on the subject and I really appreciate it. I met with the girl this past Wednesday and we had a heart to heart conversation where we both talked about our feelings after what happened that night. That I wanted to make sure she knew why I wanted to kiss her and how I felt in that moment and afterwards.
She also shared her feelings and some personal things that happened in past relationships, one in particular that was a catalyst to her spiritual awaking and how she realized she needed to kind of a new beginning, or to turn her life around.
We talked about a few other things and I came away from our date that the conversation was healthy, productive, and honest. I didn't really know how it would go so I used some advice in this thread and it generally went pretty well.
Thanks again everyone for your thoughts. Maybe some day I'll meet some of you in person..Wouldn't that be weird. I've been a board member since 2007, so think of that, its been thirteen years that I've seen some of your usernames. Its an interesting environment where members are on a site for that long. I don't think it happens many places on the Internet today. I am so thankful of the board we have here and the nice members.
Glad it went well... conversations like that will truly strengthen your relationship and help you both figure out where it's going and what you want out of the relationship. great job... it takes a lot of guts to have those conversations.
That was awesome. All of our single folks should print that out.
I guess maybe that's what comes in terms of relationship experience and as years go by. I do like a lot of what you say and I think its valid.
