20-6 lead squandered.

Failure on all sides of the ball.

It's the 2008 season all over again. This season is almost as unwatchable as the Sashi years.

Changes are needed. I don't know where the change should start.

Basically, this image is us.

I hate this team so much right now.

Awful second half...

Baker needs to protect the damn ball..

Officials were awful....

Defense wore down....

Better showing the last week initially... baker needs to get better... coaching needs to get better...

Chubb with another good game

Kitchens and Mayfield are not the answers.

Freddy ????
Baker Int's although a lot have been dropped by Wr's into the opponent's hands
Nick Chubb is a beast and needs more than 20 Carries
Garrett is a sack master now with 9 sacks
Defense soft against the run
OL did not play horrible today
WR's and RB's need to squeeze the ball
Play Calling ???
Officials should be investigated

Oh yea Ward and Greedy

our shopping list for offseason appears longer than last years.. We need a franchise QB, HC, DC, OC, LB's, 2 safties, 2 CBs that aren't cream puffs and some dline that can actually shed blocks.

I know it was over at halftime (seattle scored prior to halftime)....same old Browns

Freddy aint ready for the job = Period

A lot of these involve Baker throwing behind WRs. Derek Anderson developed the same problem in 2008.

Rigged. Anyone who thinks otherwise... I'm very jealous of you. Enjoy the rest of your cocktail and happy life.

They called a catch to end the game when the BALL HIT THE GROUND AWAY FROM THE PLAYER.

It wasn't a weird bobble, it wasn't a roll over, it wasn't a bad angle.

There's literally no way anyone let alone a ref standing 10 feet away could think that was a catch unless they were cheating.

Also the man down field, the no call D holding, hands to hte face, the fake holding call, the fake roughing call and the 4th down fumble BS.

I'm done spending any money on the NFL. I'll enjoy it as free entertainment, but it's clearly not a real sport.

All NFL QB's throw to the back shoulder the Receivers are supposed to catch the ball !!!

We got really juiced after beating Baltimore...and now Cincy nearly beat Baltimore haha our team is horrid

What's tough is I expected the Hawks to win... before the game... they have a good coach and qb and overall are the better team.... but we had them on the ropes early... and we didn't put them away.... then we had chance to come back later in the game and couldn't do it.... this team is a long way away from learning how to be a winner...

Turnovers(not apple ones)…
Our DB's cant tackle on a level that makes it almost unbelievable.
Sadly I see it right in front of my face..
Where are the pricey stars in crunch time?
So tired of seeing second tier players drop passes in the breadbasket...
BTW I have no kind words for the GD REFS!!!
So how will the league office frame this "our bad" on the officiating, for this team in particular?
I swear the NFL is fixing games
I think it needs investigated federally.

No wonder this team will always remain the whipping boys of the league.
Feeling more and more like the heel for continuing to watch this franchise when I know how it is always going to go.
How did he put it today, Suffering for decades? Yup.
I wonder if it is my fault?
When I turned the game on it was 20-12...
FML!~

Same old groundhog day crap I have been seeing for way too long of a time.

One thing I will say is this: I am watching the Jets run screen after Screen to drive down the field ...... and wonder why we don't run screens?

the refs absolutely wrecked us today.

but there were SOOOO many bad plays from offense and defense that we could've overcame the refs.

our defense couldn't stop the run or pass. we got some sacks but it didnt even matter, we got wrecked with Wilson's mobility. absolutely wrecked. he extended plays all damn game and gashed us.

and whats worse? they were down two starting OL. and we still got destroyed. guess being ranked 9th in pressure doesnt mean all that much huh?

do not get me started on Freddie kitchens and his atrocious play calling.

i mean how in the world do we pass MORE with the lead? somebody explain that to me. Chubb had us rolling, and then we get a big lead and start acting like we're a pass first team. i dont freaking get it.

And baker.

look guys....people will make the very viable argument that 2 of these picks should've been caught.

but those passes to landry and hilliard were behind them. Baker is NOT accurate right now. and nobody can claim otherwise. baker is either throwing high or behind. very few passes this season have been on the money.

he now had 5 TD's, and 11 picks.

in what world are we gonna win with that?

We seem to be dying on the hill of trying to install the Air Raid offense in the NFL.

25 passes to 11 rushes in the first half.

Chubb had 9 carries, very head scratching to say the least.

Meh, I put this one on Freddie. He sucks as a rookie HC. We outplayed them the first quarter. I don't understand all the shotgun. It seems like we forced the ball to OBJ a few times. The ints were bad breaks, partly baker, partly WRs. I'm glad the bye is here, maybe Freddie can out coach the bye... smh

I still feel we'll finish in the 10 win neighborhood. I think we were the better team today and just beat ourselves.

Too many turnovers...
Too many penalties...
Too many questionable offensive play calls...
Too many missed tackles...
A Defense that still can't stop the run...
Poor clock management at end of first half...
Bakers timing still off with receivers...(guess sitting out ALL preseason is paying dividends now)...

We don't know how to win...
Never liked the coaching changes...Dorsey has to take some responsibility for this. He took a staff that had this team playing disciplined football at end of 2018...jettisoned the staff for an unknown flash in the pan...maybe next year people...maybe...

Turnovers. Penalties (I know some of them were questionable). Dropped passes. Can't stop the run. Can't score from the 1 yard line. Still need to learn how to win. Tough loss. Patriots will school them after the bye. But watch out after that. Maybe not playoffs but this season is not over. It's year one with this group. Hang in there. Stay tuned.

Everyone have a good week off. Patriots probably going to teach us a few things. Relax. It's going to be OK. No, we're not going to the Super Bowl. We may not even make the playoffs. But this season isn't going to be as bad as you think. Really.

Correct me if I’m wrong but was that horse collar penalty called by New York officiating after the play or did I misread what the commentators said? New York can call penalties now? With the newest rules, the constant reviews, the challenges etc. they might as well take the pads off and make it a flag football league.

I’m a tired fan. Tired of this thread. Tired of the same old crap every season. Doesn’t matter who fields this team, who coaches, who is the owner. It’s the same.....thing... I’ve never been so close to giving up and burning everything I own in the brown and orange. I want to give up. For my sanity and personal health. Tired of being angry every week due to dangled hope on the field, just to be crushed by either bad performance, referees, or coaching. I freaking hate my parents for passing on this purgatory to me. It’s a weekly misery during the fall that comes annually and has no sight of changing.

F the refs
F the coach
F the team

Glad I turned it off at the half.

This is one of the problems, when we do get a big lead, we fold and allow teams to come back, stay in the game, and eventually win. The only two exceptions are the Jets and Rats games.

Yup most teams will win being up 20 to 6...the bottom feeders will lose those games...that's us

I feel you! Don't give up til after the season though, because our division stinks and right now we are playing high profile QBs on highly marketable teams.

If we play the exact same game we played today it's a win VS the Bills, Broncos, Cardinals, Dolphins, Steelers and Ravens, which just so happens to be the remainder of our schedule after NE.

Even with these botched losses we could still end up 9-7 which may be good enough to win a weak division.

I don't understand how it was a horse collar... had him by the chest and back of the jersey...

Alot of us agreed Baker might have second year struggles and its occurring. Couple that with rook HC who seemingly second guesses and outsmarts himself and it's a recipe for what we see.

Our (non playing) DBs are soft too.
Get on the field...

We did a few times, however Chubb fumbled on one...(not blaming him for the loss, but turnovers kill a team) Our lineman never get in place...and our backs seem to all get dragged down early on screens...don't seem fast enough to get out in space imho.

Our talent is fine. Our coaches suck. Its a straight up crime to suck this bad when we have the talent we have.

Freddie has no clue. We are ahead by a bunch in the first half and Chubb is on a roll and he abandons the run. wtf? His play calling SUCKS and this isnt the first game either.

I used to like Wilks. But he sucks too. Did he really think he would beat wilson by bringing 4 all game? Wilks NEVER brings the heat and blitzes. That is a FAIL of a strategy, especially against the stronger QBs. If you cant put them on their ass YOU will LOSE. Wilson had all day to throw all game.

I hate the coaches of this team, and if they are all fired during the bye I wont be sad.

We have all this talent on the team, and its being WASTED.

j/c:

The game went pretty much how I expected it would, unfortunately.

Watched Landry pull up on a block after he was flagged for the BS blindside block. It would have been a first down on that play but refs quelled any fire from this team and the fans earlier in the quarter.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but I believe the turning point in the game was the inability by the coach or the QB to manage the clock at the end of the first half. A 10 year old would know better. Not only did they not milk the clock, they rushed the play, Baker threw a bad ball, and with the time left on the clock it was the difference between 27-12 and 20-18. I don't mind losing; I just hate losing by being dumb.

I've also never seen so many interceptions over just a few games span that hit the receivers hands. It's like a case of really bad luck.

On a positive note, I know those that are upset won't want to hear that but this was the good Baker from last year for 90% of the game. I think that's a positive sign moving forward.

Exactly, Baker made some decent throws, not perfect, maybe not even great but the WR's got both hands on the ball and should have made the catch, they didn't and it ended up in the air and picked.

I'm certainly not saying Baker has looked great this season, he's regressed in a lot of areas, but this loss was not his fault.

The D had some good play throughout the game but got gassed later in the game and that spelled the end of any comeback.

When you jump out 20-6, you need to find a way to win, the Browns have not found the ability to put a game away, unless it's against weaker teams, and I consider the Rats to be weaker compared to a handful of other teams, not the weakest team but I doubt they go to the Super Bowl.

You can bet, in two weeks, NE will beat the snot out of the Browns, that effectively will end the Browns hopes for playoffs, if it's not already ended, which I think it is.

Oh and the refs weree f'n horrible today. I truly feel there could be conspiracy against the Browns. The blind side block call against Landry was one of the worst calls I've ever seen, even the announcers were scratching their heads at that one, then made the excuse of a young ref, well, if he's young and inexperienced then let him learn in preseason, in my opinion, he should not have a job after today.

Darryl Johnson said they changed the horse collar rule this year to extend to the nameplate on the back of the jersey which is where he had him. Personally I think it's ridiculous, but that's the rule now according to him.

This game was utterly exhausting. I felt in my bones after that 1st quarter that it was an apparition. I kept thinking that we’re going to screw the pooch eventually, let them back in, we can’t sustain this, we have to get crazy out in front of the Seahawks, like 30 points to have a real expectation of winning. I know that speaks to my psychology but with this team... I’m not wrong.

It’s scary how good we can be when all cylinders are firing. But we’re undisciplined, we’re immature and we just don’t have what it takes to hang with elite teams for 4 quarters. Maybe in time it could come together but I fear the internal forces at work with this team and FO will tear it apart and unless there’s a seismic shift, we’re on a course for major upheaval again in the off season.

We still have a lot of season left but I think we know exactly what they are right now. We’ve seen the range, I know how to bet on them. What they are is not an easy or quick fix, it’s root level. Ultimately it’s a leadership problem. We have to hope that our coaches and key players are not crumbling, that they’re soberly learning and will get better. The alternative is ruin.

Yes, Baker cant throw and catch the ball too. There were some bad drops.

But that is part of any game.

I feel the bad coaching and play calling is the over arching reason we lost.

What a horrible game to watch. On Monday against the niners I quickly slipped into apathy Browns apathy mode where I stare at the TV blankly and say nothing and feel nothing but today I had hope and got angry as they let it slip away. It was the Browns game to lose and they lost.

1) Freddie needs to answer for this. He needs to explain what is wrong with this football team.

2) The officiating was horrible. It is amazing that the officiating in the NFL can be so bad year after year after year. Sometimes I wonder why I continue to watch. It’s bad on two levels. One, they throw too many flags. It is disruptive to the flow of the game to see flag after flag after flag which, of course, have dramatic impact on the outcome of the game. (2) Blatantly poor calls which ruin the game occur far too often. No excuse for it to happen as often as it does and no excuse for it to have not been remedied before this by the NFL.

3) So many balls bobbled into the air today by the receivers. There probably could have been more interceptions because of this. It needs to stop.

4) Nice game for Chubb.

5) Baker had some nice plays and some bad plays. Of course I’ve read some comments on here about us needing a franchise QB but I just don’t see any reason to give up on Baker yet. Quite frankly he has shown a lot of upside and he is basically in his 3rd coaching regime in 20 NFL games. I think we underestimate the impact of that sometimes. He had the Hue regime, the Gregg regime and the Freddie regime. I know Kitchens was involved in all of those but in varying roles and it matters. It’s not the same as if Baker got to sit on the bench for a year with Mike McCarthy as the coach and Favre as QB and all that consistency. Just think of your own job and think if your bosses keep changing and think of the impact it’s going to have on you, especially if you yourself were just starting out and learning. So I’m not giving up on Baker.

I’m pissed Freddie isn’t getting it done. I was yelling for him to be fired during the game. But it may be in our best interest to let Freddie develop because he may develop into a good coach even though he has some initial struggles. We may have some growing pains but it doesn’t mean it won’t get ironed out throughout the course of THIS season. Certainly a mid season firing rarely does any good. Last year when we fired Hue we did have some benefit but there would be no benefit in firing Freddie after giving him 5 weeks. It would be ridiculous. It may benefit him to have a bye week to regroup. Unfortunate to have the Pats the first week after the bye but if the Browns can beat them, it will be a great win for us.

What makes you think it was Dorseys decision and not the Haslems?
Dorsey was hired by the Haslems, and the coaches were hired by the Haslems,
and the Haslems hired Haley, Hue, Sashi, Depodesta, and all the others that don't come to mind.

Just don't see how you can think Dorsey had the final say when it seems if the Haslems didn't agree they just would have gotten rid of any or all of them Dorsey included, just don't see how it wasn't the Haslems with the final call.

sorry bro, you don’t win against anyone turning the ball over like we do. Not on the nfl.

it was widely reported John Dorsey was given the ability to hire the HC without interference from the Haslams.

Problem with letting Freddie learn on the job is this team is built to win now and soon we will be handing out some contracts that will hurt. I don't see the talent some are saying.. I'm seeing not alot of heart or leadership..particularly on the defense. Shouldn't have hired freddie to begin with. Just about any of the others we interviewed would have been better options

For the life of me I can not understand the thinking before the end of the half??

I mean call a time out. Get the offensive unit together and tell them this is what we are going to do.

We are going to run the ball. Eat clock. And worse case kick a field goal.

Employ a jumbo package and run. Then do it again and sweep.


There is no way that what took place should have happened.

It was dejavu all over again. I mean learn from mistakes.

That point swing was the game.


They came to play. Had a great plan. Then made mental errors that at this stage is inexcusable.

Penalties,turnovers,blocked punts.All are hallmarks of a poorly coached team.
I've seen more than my share of piss-poor crap football.I'm bailing on this season.
Maybe next year.

-Morgan Burnett and Whitehead were awful...blown plays, penalties, and whiffs on tackles

-Eric Murray...This guy is bad, I'd take Ogbah as a rotation end vs him seeing the field

-LB's its odd, but with this lame 4-2-5 I can never tell if our LBs are playing good or not...Saw single LB looks several times as well.

-Most over-rated DLine considering the talent and money spent

-Myles flashed several times, had another penalty...then again flashed more...Still has no control of his gap in the run game...Ogi had an iffy penalty, Vernon had one good presure, but then helped force a fumble...Saw Sheldon make one play, he gets neutralized really easy, well then again so does everyone.

-So we activated Higgins, but didn't play him...Ratley was inactive as was Tawyon Taylor whom we traded for...So we only had OBJ, Landry, Calloway?

-Calloway...sigh

-Landry...stop having him return punts, he gets injured then we are screwed. Block call was absurd.

-OBJ man someone mentioned the Braylon Edwards comp...Dropped some passes, but made some difficult routes...seems to get annoyed and gears away if you play physical with him...but made some good grabs

-RSJ-this guy has severe issues blocking...Brown blows as well

-Chubb...our offense has to feature him more, probably our best player...Though the fumble on the screen hurt...must protect the ball.

-Baker...finally got to see him run, and then sneaking got him banged up...A lot of those turnovers are on his WRS...and trust me I'm hard on Baker, yes the passes could have been ideally perfectly placed. But trust me off passes happen all the time, when the receiver drops them and they are picked off....then thats when they are magnified severely.

-Oline played much better than last week...Our lineman suck at moving though...horrible movement on pulls and screens.

-Coaching...F all around...D just sat around all day, what happened to this attack D? Freddie had a flurry of blunders...and that horrible goal line sequence...

I'll wait while some of you decide whether you're gonna leap off that ledge.....

Few thoughts:

* Freddy's clock-management at end of first half was brutal. He gifted them 7 points. I'm not giving up on him, but I said even before we gave him the HC gig that we'd be better off keeping GW as head coach, and keep Freddy as OC.
* For the most part, Baker threw the ball well today, I know he had three picks but not one of them was his fault. I don't care if anyone disagrees with me - I'm not blind.

* Wilson is so fluid when throwing on the run. Deadly.

* We are not a finished product, everybody has take a deep breath and get some perspective.

* Overall, we actually played well against a well-oiled Seattle team, hung in there with them.

* the penalty on Landry still ticks me off, but we had the lead in the fourth quarter and couldn't stop them. I'm not going to blame the refs for this loss.

* the offensive line played well today.

* Too many penalties.

Couldn't agree more. I posted something similar as well.

New Flash for people who expect an explanation: Freddie will always have an excuse. Do you really think he is gonna say he sucks? LOL that is what the FO is for when they give him his pink slip.

Int in the endzone.

OBJ and others dropping passes.

Penalties, some which were beyond questionable. Jarvis blocks a guy running straight at him, and it is crack back?

Freddie throwing a challenge flag and taking enough points off the board that could have had us winning.

This defense can't hold a lead. Everytime we score the opponents drive the field for a TD.

The horsecollar was BS. They tried to say he grabbed the nameplate, but when the video stops as he is saying it, his hand is clearly below the name.

I thought Baker played well for the most part, early in the game drops killed a couple drives. His INTS are killing us, but today I put it on the recievers.

Piss poor clock management before the half, only to lead to the defense allowing them to drive the field with little resistance.

People mentioning the back half of the schedule are delirious. This team can lose to anybody, just as they have the ability to beat anybody.

Same old Browns is all I can say. I was optimistic before the season, but now I have no reason to believe they can beat anybody. I just do what I've been doing for the last 30 years, expect a loss and hope for at least a .500 record in the end.

The factory of sadness is alive and well.

He is the GM, and that is his job, no?

Once again playing a team with backup Oline in more than one spot, and our vaunted Dline can't stop the run. Carrie is one of the worst tackling DBs I ever saw.

All I hear from everyone is "The game should be run through Nick Chubb"...yet we refuse to. Is it an ego thing? I just don't get it.

We all see it I guess Freddy doesn't ???

I agree, I don't think Baker was awful or to blame for this loss, it was turnovers, but those INT's were on the WR's not Baker, the ball hit them in both hands, a PRO WR should make the catch, getting paid MILLIONS of dollars so I guess it just doesn't matter. They look like Dropcut v2.0

Good point about clock management, that has been an issue for a long time with many different Browns teams and regimes.

I thiink Freddie and Baker are young, they have time to learn, grow, and get better, it takes time. Bellicheck did not start out a SB winning coach. However, Dorsey might feel differently, and I could not blame him, if this same crap is happening this time next season.

I still think the trade of Zeitler for Vernon was a mistake, not that it's really cost us any games, but it hasn't helped win us any either and I think Zeitler would helop our OL better than Vernon has helped our D. JMO

Looking forward...

We might limp into the playoffs given how weak our division is, but then we will be destroyed.

But, I am QUITE SURE Dorsey will be looking to replace our incompetant coaches.

Our team has a lot of talent and is built to win now.

Logically he will want very experienced coaches who can help us win now.

Not rookie coaches learning slowly and stinking.

So I expect an upheaval in the offseason.

Given the talent on our team, we should have our choice of coaches.

That's what so maddening to me. The whole Football Universe see it except for the guy calling the plays, which will hopefully stop after the Bye Week.

If the Browns losing wasn't bad enough check out the new NCAA polls LSU Jumped OSU in both polls lol SEC Bias at its best!!!

Failure just seems so deeply ingrained into the culture of this team. If we need a win, we'll turn it over inexplicably until we lose. If it looks like we're turning it around, the coach will turn into a bumbling idiot. If we add a boatload of talent the QB will look inept and the talented players will not be able to function at a high level. If we get the best coach in the world, the owner will move the team. If things are going our way and there's a chance we'll win, the refs will manufacture phantom calls, and not call blatant penalties on the other teams to make sure we have no chance. If I believed in curses I would swear we are cursed. It's just so pathetic how we manage to screw up and get screwed in so many ways, all the time. And I swear it started with Red Right 88. Since that ill-fated day, nothing has gone right, even the best of seasons ended with inept tragedy. Now, it's a constant state of affairs. Nothing ever goes right. Ever. I feel that if we were to turn it around and have a good season, we would $#!% the bed in the playoffs because that's just who this team is, and how it will always go. It is simply unbelievable how deep and long and wide the losing goes.

Did you hear Freddie's presser theothe day, he said it himself, "You can't win in this league if you don't get chunk plays." He was referring to the passing game more than the run.

Although, if we run Chubb more, and we still don't win, then ppl will be saying we run the ball too much. So really, the offense needs to be balanced but at the very least, you need to do whatever it takes to win. We were up 20-6, and we FAILED to completely takeover the game and find a way to win.

I don't think any coaches get fired.

#5 beat #7. It's not a shocker. Have we even played a #10 or better yet?

- We have the worst HC in the NFL right now. He may get better, but he’s not even close to a competent coach right now. Constantly screaming at officials instead of strategizing, poor challenges, poor clock management, etc. It’s sad.

- Refs are ruining the NFL.

- Chubb is good.

- OBJ is all flash but doesn’t produce any WINS

- Our OL probably had its best day of the year .. great pass pro all day

- Secondary = trash ... it’s the first real game I felt Ward/Greedy’s absence really hurt us

- DL quite overrated ... what happened to this being a dominating unit? Vernon is invisible.

- Landry was basically invisible as well, as was Higgins ... why even dress him?

They deserve to be fired.

Their strategies suck and cost us, game after game.

Why build a team to win now, and have some noob coaches who wont have the skills to win until 5 years from now. It doesnt fit Dorseys vision.

if Baker Keeps throwing back shoulder passes to tons of different WR's and they are turning into picks...

whose fault is it?

there are trends and not blips of bad luck.

Well, LSU beat ranked 7 Florida, I don't think the Buckeyes have beaten a top 10 ranked team yet?

How are we built to win now? No one on the team has ever won anything, coaches or players.

I also think Baker is hurting more than he’s leading on, even before today’s game. In all honesty, this has been a disastrous start to the year. About as bad as it could be ... and I’m going to predict that we will be 2-5, then 2-6, then 2-7 ... headed into the Pittsburgh TNF game

Have you seen our roster? In denial much?

I would love to spend a Festivus with your family.

Am I invited?

The airing of the grievances must be a spectacular site.

Oh SO the Baker Apologists are out. The reason our WRs and backs drop balls is because Baker throws behind them. Two of the intercepted passes were because BAKER is throwing behind them all the time. The Landry pass in the end zone was a classic Baker throwing behind the receiver to the point the DB tipped the ball off of Landry's shoulder!!!! Face it, Baker has not been accurate at all this year. And Freddy is calling for him to pass when we should be running.

I mean, at this point I’m going to say that I’m not being negative as much as I’m being realistic. We simply are a losing team still, except this year we have a horrific HC and a 2nd year QB who’s slumping

I liked Pettine and Farmer, sigh, I know some story about the number of "football" guys increased when they changed...

I can't think of anything that's clearly improved from 2014.

This would have been Pettine and Farmers 7th year or so.

Try and think of 4 players that showed noticeable improvement and development while on the Browns since 1999, but don't include undrafted free agents, it's not that easy.

I always liked Pettine. I would be ok with giving him another chance at HC.

Then stop watching. You're obviously driving yourself crazy. Life's too short bud.

Yeah, you’re probably right haha ... you’re wiser than I

I still want to be invited to Festivus.

Dec 23 you’re there

You're right about the refs, they suck. However, Freddie screaming at them is sort of warranted and understandable. lol

Hollywood Higgins can go to Hollywood, he's done nothing.

As for the secondary being trash, I'm not sure that's the case, I think it's a matter of Wilson being a mobile QB and can extend plays, by doint so, it ensures that a WR will come open at some point, you can't contain wR's forever (unless you are a Browns WR then you can't get open.)

As for OBJ, true he's not been much in the stat dept. but he has provided a lot of coverage which has allowed others to be open, at least most of thetime, however, I'm now thinking we should have used two firsts to get Khalil Mack, as it's pressure on these QB's we need, and only Garrett is getting any of that and it's not qutie enough. We also shoudl have kept Zeitler.

I know that wasn't directed at me but as lifelong Browns fan for 46 years, I would NEVER turn my back on them. But I sure do complain a lot!

Bringing 4 will never pressure an opposing QB. Ever. I dont like our defensive gameplan at all.

If we have this same plan against the Pats, Brady will rack up 70.

I think it's due to the CB injuries? We blitzed a ton when they were healthy.

Baker barked on the refs in his PG interview. Probably get fined for it.

I'll say this . . .

It's a tale of two teams. One, Seattle, is a well oiled, well coached, the chemistry is there, the talent, they have it. This is why they make the playoffs.

The second team, us, is a herky jerk, bucket of talent and little talent coached by a guy who should never have sniffed the job.

We are not well coached at all on all sides of the ball. We look good one week, like crap the next. Wilks has one good game against Baltimore but can't call one at all against San Fran and this week with Seattle.

We may do okay down the stretch after New England. But we don't have it together to run with the big boys of the league. Whether or not that changes is gonna depend on how well Kitchens learns how to be a head coach. And it's gonna be a painful learning process cause he sucks.

Baker has regressed but I don't lay it all on him. Monken and Kitchens are playing a role in his game. It's an ad hoc offense each week. What can we drum up to win a game? It's sandlot football.

Can't put this loss on the D. And can't blame Freddie, even though you may not like the scheme or some of the calls. The five turnovers and the blocked punt are the real culprits. Take those away, we win this game walking away.

When have they ever been healthy?

He's allowed to complain about refs when he gets his completion percentage above 68%, stops throwing needless INTS, and learns to throw in-front of a receiver.

Game 1.

We didnt win that game....

D sucked vs Titans.

Watching other teams who’ve beat us (Titans, Rams, Seahawks, 49ers) ... they are SO much better coached than we are. LIke, it wasn’t close. Efficient, prepared, cohesive, etc.

There are many problems with this team. Most of those are probably not fixable this year, unless significant changes are made. We do not have a team that can beat good teams in most games. My fear is that the team will look better in the weaker part of the schedule in the second half of the season and not change what needs changed, which will be disastrous for next year.

I'm not saying your post isn't true some of the time, but as fans of one team we tend to be overly harsh on our own team and overly embellish the good qualities of other teams.

Yeah I can agree with that. Every fan base questions their coaches. I wonder if you’d poll NFL execs anonymously how they’d answer, but I bet they’d say the Browns are among the worst coached teams thus far

This is exactly my fear.

We can't accept mediocrity, or bank on "winnable" easy games.

Great, so we beat a bunch of teams with 1-3 wins. I'd hate to hang our hats on that, yet we can't say "oh, look at these signature wins against the elite teams".

You are who you play as. I want us to beat elite level competition, and I don't want us to settle with being okay with beating scrubs. That's unacceptable.

Freddy needs to stop being arrogant and stop making the same mistake that hue and shurmer did, which is calling the plays. This doesn't work in the nfl more times than it does. Let's see what monk can do.

Wilks....man his defense confuses me sometimes. He runs a 4-2-5. I understand this is a passing league but not having that third lb is hurting us in the run game, especially since Garrett and Vernon. Are basically strictly pass rushers.

Anyone thinking that the return of ward and greedy....if they ever return, is gonna make a huge difference you might be in for a rude awakening. Honestly I would keep one on the bench and keep Mitchell in. He is a damn good CB imo.

This team sorely needs a fullback.

Our passing scheme seems to confuse our players more than it does the opponenet.

On training camp I kept hearing about how Lawrence was this unstoppable force even against the first string. That's because he was going up against our porous o line. This guy is good for being fined every other week and that's about it.

This shotgun/pistol offense needs to be trimmed down to. Run the damn ball from under center. Also I would like to see more play action also coming from under center.

I think we can all agree the hope of making the playoffs is done, it's over. At this point being 8-8 would be a massive success

IDK, so many of the issues look execution-related to me. Specifically the turnovers. For example, Baker mentioned in his presser that a couple of his back-shoulder passes were intentionally thrown there to protect the WR or take him away from the safety, but clearly, he and the WRs weren't on the same page. So perhaps when they learn to expect back-shoulder passes in certain situations, that will change. I'm not apologizing for the mistakes, just saying we often don't have all the information, and as infuriating as the interceptions and incompletions can be, there may be execution-related issues going on that we're not privilege to. So to your point, perhaps if they get better at doing what they're supposed to be doing, they will become better overall, and start winning the more difficult games and beating the better teams. Seattle is a good team, a 5-1 team that we should have beaten today. The Browns looked like crap often enough to lose the game, but take away those turnovers and replace them with proper execution, and we win this game and this is an entirely different conversation. JMHO

*Regarding Kitchens, Dorsey made a huge mistake.
*How long has Baker been playing hurt?
*After NE schedule gets a little easier. Brown's could still make playoffs.
*If they don't make playoffs, or have a winning record, Kitchens could be done after just 1 year as HC.
*After the talent Browns got last off season, Dorsey can't be happy with what he's seeing. Kitchens seat maybe getting warm.

I guess it's time to go back to not caring if the Browns win or lose and just focus on fantasy football.

I just did this 30 minutes ago and my day got better.

Doesn't work for me because my three fantasy teams suck worse than the Browns.

Too early for not caring.

Lol, sorry.

It's the only thing that has me still watching football today.

Yikes

Need to know how much of that is due to BS & phantom calls.

You don't go from being a candidate for NFL Rookie of the Year to awful. I think Baker is still a franchise QB that's playing hurt. IMHO

I need to go back to auto-drafting.

Awful officiating, interceptions sink Cleveland Browns

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10/awful-officiating-interceptions-sink-cleveland-browns.html


By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND – If the Browns had not thrown three interceptions, they probably would have won this game.

Or if Nick Chubb had not fumbled near the goal line...

Or if the officials had not messed up the call where Jarvis Landry appeared to fumble AFTER he crossed the goal line...

Or if the officials simply would have kept most of the flags in their pockets and allowed both teams to play the game and decide the issue...

Final score: Seattle Seahawks 32, Cleveland Browns 28.

This is going to sound strange because the Browns lost, but they showed more grit and character in this game than at any time this season.

I write that knowing there was some strange play-calling by coach Freddie Kitchens.

And knowing there were some significant breakdowns by Steve Wilks’ defense.

And knowing the 2-4 Browns now have lost all three of their home games.

“You can’t move the ball if you keep turning it over,” said Kitchens. “We scored 28 points and had four turnovers.”

That is the bottom line, a blown opportunity for the Browns. The Browns had a 20-6 lead in the first half but couldn’t maintain it.

So this is not all about officiating.

EMBARRASSING OFFICIATING

But this is probably the worst officiated NFL game I’ve seen in years...

If not decades.

If the NFL were to truly study the tape of this game, a couple of officials should be suspended or at least fined for general malfeasance.

I’m not going to spend a lot time on the details of all the bizarre or just-flat-out wrong calls. There were too many.

Most went against the Browns, but not all.

Nor do I know if the NFL had sent a competent officiating crew to the game if it would have made a difference in the final outcome. The Seahawks, now 5-1, are the more talented team and Russell Wilson is a quarterback who finds ways to win games.

But the players, the fans and the league deserves a better performance than they received on this sunny October afternoon.

BAKER’S ACHING HIP

Baker Mayfield hurt his hip with 11:09 left in the third quarter when he scrambled for a first down. Rather than slide before being tackled, he tried to spin away. He still was taken down.

When the QB stood up, you could see his hip was aching.

He stayed in the game, but didn’t look comfortable throwing the ball.

For the game, Mayfield was 22-of-37 passing for 249 yards. He threw a 31-yard TD pass to Ricky Seals-Jones. He also ran for a 10-yard TD.

It was not a good game for Mayfield, but it was a determined one. It was the kind of game that reminds you Mayfield has the heart and inner-toughness of an NFL quarterback.

Chubb continues to be the most consistent player on offense. He ran for 122 yards on 20 carries, including a pair of TDs.

I was hoping to write about how Mayfield played through the pain...

How Chubb carried the team on his back while Mayfield’s hip was aching...

How the defense made some big plays at the right time...

How Odell Beckham was an impact receiver with 101 yards and six catches...

And all of that is true... but the Browns lost.

Four turnovers, a blocked punt and the inability to stop Seattle when it meant the most were the main reasons for the loss.

But they were not the only ones.

The officials had their role, too, and there was no excuse for how they clearly were overwhelmed by the speed and physical nature of the game.

There's a solution. Might be coaching or it might be coaching. Freddie's not a good game day planner and I'm not sure he's any type of disciplinarian. William's had consequences to crap performance. Most younger men dont like that but I think we need some of that.

Possibly, but it also looks to me like he's pressing too much. Last week it was all the overthrows, this week it was getting cute with placement. Seems to me he was playing more within himself last year, now it seems he's trying to be a hero on every play. Maybe it was because he had more to think about last year, but he needs to calm the F down.

Why won't the Cleveland media hold Freddie accountable?

No clue to even start after that mess. This being said, tons of missed tackles, 4 turnovers, way too many penalties, some awful refereeing and terrible defensive play calling ... only lost by 4.

If we ever figure out how to play football, we might be pretty good

The sky is not falling guys.. The calls to fire the head coach are laughable. Freddie didnt fumble the ball, or drop balls causing INTS that were within a FOOT of the receivers.. He didnt miss all the tackles or cause a bone headed rusher to hit the QB late. He didnt make the refs throw ASININE flags. Is he perfect ? Hell no. But he's NOT the reason we lost today.. RELAX.

- The crowd at the game was great. People at the game getting irate Chubb is getting the ball more.

- An 0-3 effort at home this year for the fans. No wonder they offered season ticket holders 30% off food and beverage at the game today.

- The penalties and turnovers are absolutely maddening.

- This team is far too undisciplined.

- Freddie is completely overwhelmed.

- I thought Juice was going to physically assault Freddie over throwing the challenge flag on what should have been a TD for Landry.

- A 20-6 lead blown.

- Watching this team attempt to run and/or call plays effectively inside the 10 yards is torture.

- The refs were garbage. They've been garbage league wide all year.

- Chubb is the best player on the team. The offense is best when it runs through him.

Also, did it seem Freddie called more pass plays once everyone in the whole world knew Baker was hurt? I mean I could be wrong...But we risked more hits on Baker, and more arrant throws...both of which had happened under laws of probability.

I knew Freddie thought he was probably trying to outsmart the Seahawks...But I just thought that was dumb.

Outside of Baltimore, please tell me a time he had our guys in a position to win the game against an elite opponent?

It will all be ok when we get the apology letters from the NFL on Monday.

I thought Chubb’s fumble was near midfield

I thought it was too...on that screen play

yeah, it was on their 45

I have 3 things:

Freddie: when we get inside the oppo 5 yard line, give the ball to Chubb. Period. The end.

Baker: back-shoulder throws are for finesse plays outside the numbers on the field, NOT for quick slants over the middle when you need to deliver a strike to a WR running full tilt towards the middle of the field where he might very well get his head taken off. You must hit those guys in stride, on the numbers, or else bad [bleep] happens. Get it together, Mayfield - you're LATE.

Roger Goodell: your referees are sucking canal water. Landry's "illegal block", Ogunjobi's roughing the passer call, and the horse-collar tackle call on Burnett were so weak, so freaking lame - and so game altering - that they were inexcusable. These referees need to be dismissed - they are making games unwatchable. If this [stuff] continues, I'm not sure I can keep watching NFL games.

Rick Mirer did. It’s the first example that popped into my head. I’m sure there are others

Baker has potential, but he isn’t a sure thing yet. If we pick in the Top 5 again take a QB this is really deep draft with a few good QB. If we are in the top 5 again in the draft it would be criminal not to pull the trigger on a QB.

We are 4-1 with even average QB play this year. Mayfield hasn’t even played up to backup quality this year. So sad. Hopefully he figured it out if not we will be in the top 5 of the draft again and you gotta pull the trigger on another qb at that point.

RG3 did as well IIRC

Just a FYI....the horse collar was the correct call. The rule was changed to include nameplate and QB was out of the pocket. I’m more miffed at the fact we didn’t get the td when we challenged. The ball was clearly in his grasp when it was touching a defender who was clearly in the end zone.

Some other thoughts

Coaching wasn’t a problem today, turnovers were. I know Freddie took blame but that is only because that’s what he is supposed to do.

Chubb had another productive game.

Myles with a couple more sacks today.

Russell Wilson is an elite QB.

I gotta say that I disagree with this mindset. This is accepting mediocrity. With our roster we should expect nothing less than the division and at least one game in the playoffs. To accept losses to good "highly marketable teams" is poor form and won't get us far. We should win these games. We can't beat the NFCW at the moment and that appears to be one of the better divisions, if not THE best division. On paper we should hang with all of these teams and even beat them, but we can't seem to get out of our own way.

Tired of watching games STOLEN from my team by refs that are HOT GARBAGE. Any blindfolded monkey, being explained the rules five minutes before the game, could do a better job. GAME-CHANGING calls, week after week, year after year... makes me want to puke. Won't comment on the short-comings of a team whose win was STOLEN.

Pretty much agree. I was of the opinion that money would ruin the game, but I'm now feeling officials will ruin it.

Don't get me wrong, I want rules, obviously............but flags every 2nd or 3rd play?

Anyone think that the officials are being a bit defiant ... like to say screw you to the NFL for the micromanaging of rules, replays, DPI, etc

Defiant? Making calls that clearly don't exist... Reviewing plays and being arrogant enough to dispute evidence clear to any human? How's about CORRUPT??

Defiant - no. "We are bigger than the game" - yes... clearly.

Well, the bright side is if we win out in our division (which is a strong possibility considering the NFL North right now) and pull off wins against the other three teams who currently have losing records then we could win our division.

#FreeToddMonken

Yes. 100%. I've mentioned it before.

I also think opposing players, coaches, and FOs aren't the only ones that want to shut the Browns up.

I may be wrong, but my recollection is that Burnett had his left arm on or around Wilson's waist and also had a fistful of his jersey around the number in back. I didn't see it as any kind of horse-collar tackle. Plus, the flag wasn't thrown at all; the penalty was called after yet another endless "referee conference". Its like they were saying "we forgot that we saw this, but we did, so this announcement will have to replace any flag we could have thrown, but didn't.".

GTFOH, zebras.

That is interesting

Five in a row on the last drive of the Dallas-Jets game, all in favor of Dallas, just to give them the opportunity to get into the end zone. I was shocked they allowed the stop on the 2 point conversion to stand. Shocked!

Also, one referee signaled touchdown so he was overrulled twice!!

The officiating get worse each year.

Purposely stayed home this afternoon to watch my Browns. They were the regional game because the Pats played on Thursday. Being in Pats country they will be on here again in 2 weeks. I won't make the same mistake I made today. I honestly can't take much more of bad play calling, poor refereeing, dropped passes, poor tackling etc. I love my Browns and want to see them win in the worst way but enough is enough.

This is 100% correct about forcing the ball to OBJ unnecessarily. It's why I'm one of the biggest supporters of OBJ being traded off the team. Last year Mayfield spread the ball around more and would throw to the open receivers, whoever became open. This year he doesn't do it as much and tries to force it, just an observation.

Saw that. Somebody had money on the cowboys

After 6 games, we are near or at the top in missed tackles, dropped passes and penalties

from his lips to God's ears

Refs were awful.

Comparing Rick Mirer to Baker is awful. How did we ever get to that point? Stop. Mayfield is our franchise quarterback. He's not going anywhere. He's still only started 19 games and he's not close to the amount of interceptions peyton manning threw in his first two seasons.

I agree coaching has been an issue. I also know Freddie probably isn't going anywhere. He's going to be here next year. You don't hire a rookie head coach knowing there could be growing pains.

And I agree we have talent to win, but we are still a young team and we are still only 2 seasons removed from 0-16.

I'm frustrated like all Browns fans... I'm not ready to give up. 2-4 is a better start than the previous 3 seasons. Minus the Titans, our opponents that beat us are a combined 13-4. The 5-0 Patriots up next, then it gets real easy.

Im actually still confident we will make the playoffs/win the division.

I don't like being 2-4 either, but things will get better. I promise.

not sure why people assume we are going to or even have a chance to win our division..Baltimore, despite us beating, is better than us. Only two teams have allowed more points in the NFL than us.. Cincy and Miami

I agree Rish, it seems pretty obvious

I didnt know that. Disappointing. Defense was supposed to be our strength.

That’s really, really bad to see if it’s true. IMO, that’s unacceptable

I truly hope they do get better...I can still see some teams upsetting us when our schedule gets easier...But we got to hope we start to improve here fast.

They won't be upsets. The only teams we "should" beat are the Bengals and Dolphins.

All the other teams are as good or better than the Browns.

I wonder why Wilson's WRs don't ever tip the ball to the other team or run into each other causing a INT?

I just saw the QB efficiency chart through week 6 ... if i can copy/paste it I’ll try. It has Baker at the bottom just above Rosen ... all others above him

https://mobile.twitter.com/benbbaldwin/status/1183542698478919681

There are about 5 different graphs with different info like that in that thread

You really think we are going 8-1 or 7-2 down the stretch after the Cheatriots blow us out?

Nope.

Suddenly, analytics suck. LOL

Why do we have a chance to win the division?

The Ravens 4 wins have come against teams with a combined 3 wins.

No one in our division is better than 3 of the 4 teams we lost to.

The Steelers still could mount a comeback within the division, but their best player is out for the year.

We are a young team still learning to win. It's gonna happen. We have the most talented offense in the division.

“The funny thing is, is that Cleveland has had this reputation of losing & we are all sitting here trying to figure out why we didn’t win....This is a team that could possibly be 6-0 or 5-1, but that is not our record. We are 2-4, and we are 2-4 for a reason" - OBJ

https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN/status/1183563812768796672

This will only get worse I’m afraid

He sounds like an English major.

Andy dalton has been better than baker mayfield so far this season.

This is gonna be a long bye week.

Tough crowd.

Yes, we will still be in the thick of the playoff hunt even if the Patriots blow us out.

The team ahead of us in the standings still has to play 3 of the teams we lost to.

Yeah, that chart is very telling, at least to me

It wasn't. It also wasn't an illegal block in the back by Jarvis, a fumble by Jarvis, a catch by Metcalf, hands to the face or illegal man downfield by Hubbard, and I could keep going on but in a game decided by 4 points and 17 lost by the Refs I don't think I can stomach to.

It's Haslam for cripes sake!

Holy....

Can't say I'm surprised, when you lead the league in turnovers you're pretty much the worse.

More turnovers than Jameis Winston? That's quite a feat. Bravo Baker, Bravo.

Yeah, seeing he has more TO’s than Jameis is eye opening

The fistful was on the nameplate, therefore it was a horse collar tackle. Like it or not, that one was a correct call (even if it was after the fact)

Terry Pluto ..... who never complains .... (there is other stuff there, but this is about the officials ......

Awful officiating, interceptions sink Cleveland Browns - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10/awful-officiating-interceptions-sink-cleveland-browns.html

EMBARRASSING OFFICIATING

But this is probably the worst officiated NFL game I’ve seen in years...

If not decades.

If the NFL were to truly study the tape of this game, a couple of officials should be suspended or at least fined for general malfeasance.

I’m not going to spend a lot time on the details of all the bizarre or just-flat-out wrong calls. There were too many.

Most went against the Browns, but not all.

Nor do I know if the NFL had sent a competent officiating crew to the game if it would have made a difference in the final outcome. The Seahawks, now 5-1, are the more talented team and Russell Wilson is a quarterback who finds ways to win games.

But the players, the fans and the league deserves a better performance than they received on this sunny October afternoon.

Oh, and the tackle in question was on the shoulder of the uniform, not the nameplate.

How bad was the officiating in the Browns' loss? 3 blown calls that went the Seahawks' way - cleveland.com
https://www.cleveland.com/sports/g66l-20...ahawks-way.html

3rd section has the slo-mo video.

There are tons of reasons why we lost, all of them valid. I would just say that was one of the worst officiated games I have ever witnessed. Bad call after bad call. When you are the home team you at LEAST expect them to call it even. Not in Cleveland. I was longing for the days when a fan might toss a whiskey bottle at the zebras. Pathetic. The NFL is pretty much unwatchable these days and today was a prime example of why.

I could forgive the facemask one, that's hard to see. But the most egregious one of the day was Landry's touchdown. There was a still frame, right on the endzone of Landry with the ball in hand breaking the plane of the goal. What more did they need to see?

The other two shown in that link just show that the Refs don't even know their own rules. What a joke.

I agree, the Landry TD belongs on the list ahead of the horse collar tackle.. that one was close. But the most egregious as in, scratching your head wondering what they were looking at, was the blindside block. I even went back and watched all of the players around Landry to see if maybe they just got the number wrong, but they didn't... that call is inexcusable.

When you have 5 turnovers and lose by 4, nobody wants to hear you whine about the officials though.. (and yes, I count the blocked punt as a turnover even though the official stats don't)

While we're at it, it's Callaway, not, Calloway.

The officiating in the NFL has been a joke, league wide. Making games tougher to watch. Tom Terrific said as much as well...

j/c

A few things: I don't blame Freddie for challenging Landry's goal line catch and I think its wrong to characterize that situation as Freddie cost us a TD (maybe the play calling did, but not challenging it). Freddie was barking at the refs to come over and talk to him to inform him what was going on but they didn't. That's why he called the time out initially AND why they didn't charge him with calling it. HE was right and they should have been over there. But I think he was trying to challenge that play all all along and they weren't paying attention which caused the Chubb's walk in to be called off.

-This team has virtually no maturity. The very next play after Jarvis' phantom illegal block, Baker steps back and just rips it waaay over the head of I think it was Seals who was open enough to catch it. Baker's whole body language read to me a 10yr old throwing a fit because he was mad.

And it was after I believe Chubb's fumble.. the air completely deflated in our offense. I've seen this situation too many times before to believe otherwise. If our DEF didn't recover that fumble on the very next drive, I really believe this game would have been Titans 2.0


Cool things I saw today though:

The Hammer punted the piss out of the ball.. I think it was 60yards.. and almost all in the air. I still want to see him on a fake punt and put his rugby skills to use.

Nick freakin Chubb.

I really want to know what drives and motivates this guy. Watching him is... fun. I can't really describe it any better than that. I was about 11 years old and guys like Eric Metcalf and Eric Turner were my Browns heroes. But my very first jersey, the one I saved my paper route money for? Leroy Hoard.

That dude was big, fast, had crazy balance. I know he wasn't some NFL superstar, but as a kid he was so much fun to watch.

Watching Nick Chubb brings back that feeling I had as a kid. His quiet professionalism is also what really impresses me too. Barry Sanders is my all time favorite athlete because of his quiet professionalism. I see a lot of the same in Chubb.

I wonder if there's a message in there somewhere that the one player on our team killin it week after week is also our quietest?

Oh yeah, one more thing, but it ain't positive. Did Freddie really say we need more chunk plays??? HEY GENIUS!!! YOUR RUNNINGBACK IS AVERAGING 6 YARDS A CARRY! RUN HIM 25+ TIMES AND YOU'LL GET THOSE CHUNK PLAYS.

Smdh

I agree w/you on Chubb. If every player would be as professional and business like, I think we’d be in better shape.

It’s mind boggling when we stray away from him, especially when we’re ahead 20-6

It seems there's been an anti Browns bias with officiating for years. It became evident to me in that game about 10 years ago when they awarded the steelers a 1st down after a measurement clearly showed a good 2-3 inches of chain between the tip of the ball and the pole.

If that’s the case (and honestly I feel that way sometimes too, though part of me thinks every fan base must think that) .. you wonder why? What would be the motivation for it?

The Browns picked the wrong HC. Who ever made that decision needs to go.

Why? Money.

The NFL has been making millions. Why would they want change? The NFL makes a ton of money and we haven't been relevant for years. It's far more important for other franchisees to be relevant because Browns fans are loyal and we still buy stuff and go to the games despite only winning 5 games or less year after year after year....

Brady doesn't get paid enough, if New England wasn't relevant and the AFC east was a lead by a small market Bills team there would be panic. Why do you think there are all these rules to protect the quarterback?

CLEVELAND BROWNS
Baker Mayfield‘s stat line may not be pretty, but he was really more a victim of poor turnover luck as opposed to bad play. One interception occurred as his receiver was picked by a crossing defender not part of the coverage on the play, and another was off a deflection on a contested ball in the end zone. The nail in the coffin was a drop by running back Dontrell Hilliard that bounced straight into the hands of Seattle linebacker K.J. Wright.

The Browns’ offense was clicking early but struggled in the second half once they tried to implement the run more. The offensive line did a substantially better job pass blocking than run blocking, and their receivers, at least early on, were able to create space against Seattle’s defensive backs.

Myles Garrett dominated the Seattle offensive line and seemed to be in the backfield all game forcing Russell Wilson outside the pocket. Olivier Vernon played well against the run and forced a fumble in the contest.

The Browns’ secondary had a rough game staying with Seattle’s receivers, especially when Russell Wilson was able to extend plays. The linebackers and secondary had a tough time bringing down Chris Carson and limiting his yards after contact, though.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-6-pff-refocused-seattle-seahawks-32-cleveland-browns-28

Started out so damn promising... A fumble by Chubb, (never would have thought) Picks (some on Baker, some not)

I saw some outstanding plays by both the D and O.. ST's weren't horrible either. (blocked punt aside)

Some BS penalties but that always happens.

When a team has this much talent, something else is wrong.

I can't talk about it anymore.... it hurts too much

I ain't one to blame refs for losses but this loss was on the refs. The flags were big momentum plays that changed the game. Defensive holding that keeps the linemen from pulling blatant and missed. Facemask calls that weren't flagged. The laundry bracing for a hit peel back block call was the one getting the most attention but man it was really really criminal.

As for the rest, we are almost there. I still believe we win the division and likely finish with an 11 win season.

Our players seem to waste too much energy thinking about the refs and how they are going to try to screw the team over. Blatantly nonsense calls going on. They need to be able to just focus on the game. It's easier said than done when the refs are applying 2 different sets of rules. The refs have gotten good at making the numbers look okay at the end. Yet in key moments they consistently make calls contradicting the rule book and the way they had been allowing both teams to play.

As much as our play calling appears lopsided on the surface, you take what the defense is giving you. Imposing your will sounds great, our center and RG are not road graders, though and our TEs aren't good at blocking, either. Yes, we can break off big runs when holes open horizontally, but when both lines try to go forward, ours is the one that is going backwards.

Our players need to catch the ball. Baker hasn't been great, but he has had "help". Even when we have good plays it looks like the players are looking around for a bogus flag to be thrown. It's in their heads. It's not "where's the ball, let's make a play," it's " where's the flag this time."

Battered Browns Syndrome might be a thing alongside Battered Browns' Fan.

I'm sure they'll get another apology this week. They'll probably believe it as much as they'd believe an abusive husband, though. The power dynamic isn't that different.

We should have won anyways. We had more talent. Still the "abuser" can get in one's head.

The only real mistake Baker made was throwing into double coverage into the end zone, bad bounce on the deflection and it got picked.

Thought Freddie dialed up a good game plan, 4 turnovers and the penalties aren't on him.

Can't lead the league in turnovers and penalties and win, just how it is.


Anyone saying this is as "unwatachable" as the Sashi years is obviously overly emotional. The Seahawks are a damn good team and aside from some really horrible breaks (two tipped INT's and WR's running into each other for another, horrific penalties, bad calls and ball spots) we were every bit as good.

Young teams don't win in the NFL, just the way it is. Russell Wilson is 30. Tom Brady is 42. Heck the Chiefs should be 3-3 right now with a transcendent talent at QB.

It's fine, the hype was a little too big this season. We have a young QB who can very obviously play in this league. I can't say that any of the INT's were clearly his fault. At the end of the day, this is probably the best thing that could happen to an extremely over confident young team.

I managed to get through all of page one and most of page two before I stopped. It became nauseating. I'm not really sure what people expected. One thing people seem to be missing by and large is the difference between a good team and a team trying to establish itself.

A good team knows how to pull together and win. A team trying to establish themselves are looking to become a team that knows how to pull together and win. See, I watched people post how Seattle was barely winning in close games against average teams. Many saw that as some type of negative that was a good sign for us. I saw it the opposite way. I saw it as no matter what, in the end, they know how to put W's on the board.

Were some of Bakers passes behind the WR's? Yes they were. But overall he seemed better. I only saw one Int. I would lay squarely on his shoulders. The one where he threw into double coverage in the end zone. One was a miscommunication between he and the WR or the coverage made contact with the WR not allowing him to be where he was supposed to be. But I can't in all good faith lay the blame on anyone for that.

But I did see some of the things I was hoping he would improve on. He wasn't fading back in the pocket after his initial drop back. He wasn't getting happy feet and rolling out of the pocket early. Both of those things were tendencies I saw from him early that concerned me.

I was as disappointed as anyone was watching the second half collapse. But some of the comments and overreaction from some of our posters tells me that anything regarding reality and patience has been lost in our society.

jc --

While I am firmly in Freddie's and Baker's corners and believe they will grow and learn and get better, this team needs to prove to itself they can win big games. I understand the notion that they are learning how to win. I think that is valid and applicable. I also believe some people just get it done. I don't know if Freddie and Baker are winners or losers and whether or not they can just get it done. They need to prove it to the fans but most importantly they need to prove it to themselves.

I'm reminded of a game a while back between the 9ers and the Seahawks. I believe the 9ers were fresh off their super bowl appearance and the seahawks had a second or third year QB and a brash defense. It was a primetime game. I think everyone expected the 9ers to go back to the super bowl. Wilson and that defense just willed the Seahawks to victory and San Francisco never really recovered as a franchise. But it was a classic case of just getting the job done because that's what you do...you win.

The Browns are the opposite of that right now. The "learning to win" thing can only fly for so long. At some point you just have to get it done.

Has there ever been a Patriots game where they were robbed of a touch down or had blatant multiple bad penalties called against them in the 4th quarter?
Serious question, I cannot think of any . Hmmmmmm

j/c...

Last week against SF, Callaway, coming of a drug suspension, missing time in TC and showing to TC out of shape, was immediately given a significant role in the game to the detriment of the team.

Meanwhile, Higgins returns from injury, is Baker's security blanket, and doesn't play a single snap yesterday.

Freddie needs to be asked that question straight up...idiotic if he was truly ready and didn't get a snap

interesting stat...and by interesting I mean very sad

Baker Mayfield this season: 5 TDs, 11 INTs. Mayfield in the 4th quarter this season: 0 TDs, 6 INTs.

Quite a few folks said that they put Callaway in too soon....maybe Freddie didn't want to make the same mistake with Higgins?

There are a lot of things Freddie did yesterday that baffled me....this one is near the top.

That's what happens when you wake up and feel dangerous...

And the idiot coach continues to put the ball in his hands in the 4th quarter... dumb & dumber

A lot of humble pie. It will either make him or break him.

I will reiterate something I said earlier though...I've never seen so many unlucky bounces and so many picks hit the receivers hands before. That's not to excuse his poor play, but more of an observation. I'm also not a big fan of stat box heroes that use these numbers out of context. Not saying that's you lead...but we all know what the Cowherds of the world are going to do with those numbers.

Baker wasn't bad yesterday. He was close to the guy we had last year. That's a positive sign. He made at least 2 plus level throws that were outstanding...the 4th and 7 to Landry. How many guys would even attempt that throw and how many would make it? And the TD to RSJ.

You will need throws like that to eventually win games.

And then there's this stat ...



Turnover worthy pass means that the ball should have been intercepted. So if it bounces off a defenders hands, it counts. If it bounces off a receivers hands and into a defenders hands, it doesnt count against you. (Like we've see a lot)

What you can control and what you can not.

Can't control the refs. There is no justification for the calls. But you have to overcome that because sometimes it goes your way or not. Not much you can do.

Players make plays or not. Sometimes the other guy makes a good play. Sometimes your guy blows it. Like Hilliard. It happens.

What you can control from the sidelines is clock management and play calling.

I see no excuse for what happened just before the half. Freddie in his press conference said he wanted to score, hold them and score again.

That is not the correct mental approach to the situation.

We had the ball. We were in scoring position. We had control of the clock. Inside the five passing can be difficult and risky. The boundaries are an ally of the defense. The field is condensed. Everything is tight.

We have a power back. Chubb knows how to find the end zone.
I like going with two backs and two tight ends. The quarterback should have options. RPO depending on pre snap defensive alignment. He can call it at the LOS. There should be a run option inside and outside.

Even if we get stopped we can run the clock down and kick the field goal. Go into the half up 23-6 or 27-6.

You can not be stubborn there. You have a good lead. You have played well. Still a half to go. Be conservative there.

I like Freddie. I want him to be successful. I think he can be a good coach. But you have to learn from mistakes.

We had a good plan. The team was inspired. We played very well up to that point. What happened should not have happened. We had control of that.

He's certainly had some bad bounces go against him. Most in the league...

In the NFL, many teams are bunched together, with a few truly elite teams.

What makes the difference? Making plays when at the end of the game. That's why these bad calls matter so much.

The bad replay didn't hurt us right there, because we scored after stopping the Hawks and then scoring to take the lead on the next possession. However, that refusal to overturn a fairly obvious call did hurt us later on a catch along the sideline that could have been reviewed, but we were out of reviews. The "blindside block" was one of 2 really bad calls on the very same drive. Could we have driven and won the game there? Who knows .... but we will never know, because that opportunity was stolen from us.

Game officials should face punishment for truly bad calls. If players and coaches are punished for complaining about the officials, then the officials should face punishment for screwing up fairly obvious calls.

Agree 100%.

Most mad I've been all season.

Freddie doesn't realize his responsibility is to win the game. That's it. Nothing more. Make your decisions with that as your foundation.

He's currently making decisions to showcase his talent as a coach and play caller.

Make decisions to win the game, not showcase Freddie.

Did he really say that?

I am usually fairly quiet during games. I don't cheer a lot or yell a lot. I take a more analytical approach. My wife and I normally watch the game on separate TVs because I don't like to talk during the game. I want concentrate on the game. However, at half time I went to the railing and called down to her about how dumb we were at the end of the first half. I was really, really angry w/how we managed the clock. I could not figure out why Baker was not winding the play clock down and why we were passing.

And come to find out that Freddie wanted the ball twice to Seattle's once?!?! You do this w/a double digit lead? Seriously?

Its a good observation. Part of the problem is his throws are tending to be a touch behind receivers, but the other thing is it appears that our WR aren't quite prepared for the velocity on Baker's throws. When was the last time anyone saw Beckham with 2 drops in a game? Two of the throws yesterday were tipped and picked off, and the would-be TD to Callaway vs the Niners likewise all had some stank on them. Maybe our WRs need to practice with the Jugs machine set up to throw a little behind them and the speed control set all the way up to 11. It also wouldn't hurt to get Higgins on the field, because he doesn't seem to have any issues catching Mayfield's throws. Last, and most important, Baker needs to work on not being late over the middle on his throws.

Edit: Sorry, I meant this to be a reply to Rish, but clicked EXCL ... I'm pretty new here.

Indeed.

It's an undisciplined, reckless mindset.

On the last two offensive series of the first half:

“I thought about scoring. I thought about scoring, using my three timeouts to get the ball back and score again. That was the mindset I was in.”

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2019/10...transcript.html

I was so angry that my wife and daughters and dog left the room. We also had our front door open. No telling what the neighbors thought. I'll probably get some strange looks next time a walk through the neighborhood.

I was driving home after the loss when I heard this. I almost drove off the road I was so pissed hearing that nonsense. It was a press conference so he could have been spouting off anything that came to he mind first. But if he really meant that....what a stupid thing to say/think.

Like I said..Freddie really needs someone on the sidelines that can veto some of his stupid things..like coaching the coach kind of thing. Or if guys like monken and Wilks can but aren't allowed to then that needs to change. Sometimes you just can't get out of your own way, it gets even worse as the results do. But you would think being in the league as long as he has, theres just situational norms that you do based on score, time on clock, position on field, down and distance. Things just about every coach does... we don't seem to do those things

Just normalcy for a Browns fan. Along with anger, frustration, disgust, a little depression, gas, bloating and heartburn. Always keep the tums and maalox at arms length especially as you get older.

Transcript from Freddie press conference.


"On the last two offensive series of the first half:
“I thought about scoring. I thought about scoring, using my three timeouts to get the ball back and score again. That was the mindset I was in.”

==================================================

Hard to understand that? I didn't listen to it I read it.

If Freddie can not be strategic in clock management,and situational play calling then we have a problem.

Play calling? Will always be subject to Monday morning questioning. It is right if it works.Wrong when it does not.

This is not about play calling per say. It is about situational game control. Score, time on clock, who gets the ball in the second half. How you have played. Who you are playing. Your strengths. Field position.

This was a simple situation. All factors need to be considered. In this situation everything screamed to be conservative. Run the ball. Eat clock. Take the score you can get. Go into the half with everything in your favor.

Ok. You make a mistake. It happens. But you have to review all decisions in a game. Look in the mirror and think what should I have done? Learn from it. Don't repeat mistakes.

If you ignore that mental process and justify your own actions. That is a problem because then you can repeat mistakes and believe you are correct when you are not.

The only knock I have on Freddie right now, he is babying these injured guys.

4 weeks for hammy for TWO different players? Higgins not even playing? Wasn't he the one saying Duke should dress when he was hurt on hard knocks last season.

I need some more information here, it's going to what 6 weeks of not playing for two players with hammys???? Far as I know they were torn or serous but every week they do not play?

yep Freddie's big intro in hard knocks was him agreeing with Haley that players unless seriously injured need to be practicing. Now Hue's driving the bus comment makes more sense. Easy to say something should be one way when you have zero accountability for the outcome

j/c...

Oh boy...

#FreeToddMonken

Doubling down on idiocy.

Well, we know it wasn't Higgins.

That is a problem because you are bound to repeat a mistake that is easily corrected.

Game went south after the bad time management before the end of the 1st half.

I would be willing to bet that the play where 2 receivers ran into one another wasn't in the playbook either.

I don't think Freddie ever said that. I think he said "they should be dressed". In other words, wearing their uniform. Instead of sitting there in street clothes he felt they should be in uniform "at work".

I never saw him advocate that injured players should be practicing.

That's correct. He wanted players in uniform and in the position huddles, even if it was a veteran's day off.

everyone is injured during the season..look at tretter last year. 4 weeks for a hamstring on a 23 year old kid is absurd. He's babying the

All the talent.. but only 2 wins.. thats coaching my friend.

kinda correct. He still wanted injured guys that could still do something to work out on the side and do position stuff.. thats why he got rid of all the bikes etc this training camp.. He also said he didn't believe in punishing players for penalties like running laps or whatnot.. seems to be working..lol

way to bash your team in the media.. glass houses and all that

I remember that, they tried to say it was the camera angle that made it look like that.

At least they measured it though, there were a couple times this Sunday when runners went down right at the yellow line (I know the yellow line is unofficial but have you ever seen an instance where it was way off?)... nose of the ball barely at the yellow line and they don't measure. If it is a first down, it's not by more than a couple inches and they just award the first down and move on... seems odd for a sport that will stop the game for every freaking reason imaginable that a few more measurements during the game is suddenly a problem.

Yeah I noticed that too. Seattle's receiver caught the ball, right about at the first down marker. The first ref came up and actually gave us a favorable spot, about a foot short of the yellow line. I was thinking, "wow maybe we got a stop here." And then some other ref just signaled first down and they moved the sticks. No measurement or anything.

pint?

J/c

I wonder which WR ran the wrong route (whether on purpose or out of lack of knowledge) ... and more importantly, when it occurred. It may have led to an INT

My guess is that this was the play where we appeared to run a pick play on our own receiver, resulting in an interception. My next guess is that it was Callaway, because he seems to have a room temperature IQ.

After our 3 tds, we went all pass happy.

That was the mistake. They should have stuck with Chubb.

Terrible play calling.

1. Freddie needs to let go of the play calling and be the HC.

2. We need our injured DB's back

3. THE QB and WR coach needs to figure out why we are tipping Baker's passes to defenders.

4. I wonder who ran the wrong route? I would bet it would be Calloway or OBJ.

5. Freddie basically called his coaching staff/himself/team leaders for not making the talent a team.

6. We keep this hot garbage up... we will be 4-12 to 6-10.

7. We need to work on executing plays and not making dumb mistakes (penalities)

Isnt that on him?

he owes all of us a few

The play calling at the end of the first half was putrid

This could explain why our play-calling looks like it's been called by a drunk.

Well...........this is depressing news no matter how you slice it. Freddie should know better than to say that. On the other hand, what if he has been preaching this for weeks and there are too many individuals on the team rather that team guys? That second explanation is even more scary than the first.

Either way, both theories suck and I am getting aggravated again.

On another note, all these tweets that blame other players for Baker's interceptions [whether true or not] is also probably not good for the locker room.

My three biggest concerns coming into the season [I started a thread about it] were Baker, Freddie, and Chemistry. Two of the three have disappointed and now there may be signs of the third fracturing. I want to emphasize that it may be the case and it isn't proven that it is the case. I just don't like hearing all this crap.

so many balls bouncing off the receiver's hands...

The QB and WR coach needs to sit down and figure out why our QB is tossing so many balls (to some of the most sure-handed WR's in the NFL) that go bouncing up into the air and get picked off.

there is something wrong... if I had to guess... Baker is throwing with a little too much heat.

When you lose, people start talking and fingers start pointing.

Just win.

4-12. Mark it down.

Interesting to look at, and I think Baker didn't make wise decisions for more passes than I originally thought ...

- 1st Titans pick: Had time, threw nearly into quadruple coverage and missed badly.
- 2nd Titans pick: Had time, threw an out-route to a tightly covered receiver and got the route jumped.
- 3rd Titans pick: Threw way behind Landry who barely got a hand on it. Almost wonder if it was a bad route. Tipped pick, but I kind of put that one on Baker.
- Jets pick: Threw it to a tightly covered Beckham who probably dropped it because he got hit by the defender as the ball arrived.
- Rams pick: Was being rushed and basically threw a Hail Mary trying to make something happen on 4th down.
- Ravens pick: Threw it into double coverage. Sealy sort of made a "business decision" and let the pick happen, but still not a good pass.
- 1st Niners pick. Bosa pressured and Baker couldn't put anything on it. If he had another second to throw, it might of been a TD.
- 2nd Niners pick. Callaway does his best Quincy Stone Hands Morgan impression and hands a pick to the Defense. It was a little behind him, but he still got two hands on it and had no excuse.
- 1st Seahawks pick. Beckham runs into the defender and they miss a timing route.
- 2nd Seahawks pick. Threw it a little behind Landry and it looks like the defender got a hand in there.
- 3rd Seahawks pick. Total "ole" job by Hillard.

I sure hope not, but Freddie doesn't seem to be very confident in those quotes; he sounds rattled and I hope that doesn't carry through the bye week.

It just seems like Baker and the WRs also have zero cohesiveness. For example, OBJ ran the 15 yard out last game .. pretty good route, he’s well separated. The ball is slightly behind him and it seemed it crept up on OBJ. Just a slight miscommunication. And instead of a 1st down, it’s 3rd and long

j/c

After reading the press conference transcripts, it sure seems that Freddie talks a lot about receivers being in the right spots...at the right depths...and catching the ball...and better throws...and a receiver running a route that's not even in the playbook.

There is a lot more to these interceptions than just Baker...you are hearing that directly from the HC's mouth...and Baker isn't saying much about it...just like a leader/captain/QB should.

And Freddie emphasized how much “talent” we have quite a few times .. I definitely think there’s some poor play by our WRs right now too. Whether that’s all mental, physical, etc we don’t know ... but OBJ has been about as bad as he could be, Callaway is a space cadet, HIggins has been out, etc

I thought Callaway played pretty good on Sunday. I also don't agree that OBJ has been bad. He has dropped a couple of passes that he should have had, but he has also made some great catches that should not have been caught. No one talks about those, though.

I find it hard to believe that OBJ suddenly lost his game after being great for 5 years or so.

3-4 drops for OBJ in 6 games is bad for him. That’s on pace for more than 10 drops, which would be his worst year by far. And his timing on his staple routes is way off (this may be attributed to Baker) ... slants are disjointed (he even lost leverage on one last game and one a game before), zero impact in the red zone

He’s definitely had 2-3 great plays, but that’s why he costs such a high price. It’s the routine stuff that he’s not been as effective as he has in years past

I think OBJ not practicing and not playing in preseason games was another example of the overconfidence this team has displayed all off season.

That check has now come due.

could be the case

lol there is zero chance this team goes 4-12 with Miami, Arizona, Cinci twice, Broncos and Bills on the schedule. Not even mentioning Baltimore at home and two games with Pitt minus Ben.

I can think of a good way for him, Baker and the WR corps to spend the bye week-

After being away from things for a few days, here's my thoughts:

We outplayed them. We BEAT Seattle.

Then, we BEAT OURSELVES.


I agree with Freddy - this group of guys isn't a team, yet, and they aren't good enough to consistently overcome all of the mental errors they consistently make. The coach can only do so much and then the players have to take it the rest of the way... and they don't appear to be serious about doing that.

There was significant progress in there, though. We took a very good team to the wire and the ONLY reason it went to the wire was because we kept them in the game, and then handed it to them (with some serious assistance from the Refs).

It was a killer of a loss, but it *could* be the catalyst for these guys finally coming together and getting serious about pulling their heads out of their backsides. When they learn to play as a TEAM, instead of a collection of individuals, the way the 49ers do, then this talent is going to be something special to watch. Until then, there will continue to be a bunch of misfires.

Baker got Freddie the job. Lets be honest. THey hired Freddie because Baker liked him.

Freddie is doing everything to put the ball in Bakers hands to make him a hero. CAlling pass plays from the 5, empty sets on the goal line, etc. He wants Baker to be the Hero.

Freddie's comments after this game, were well.....troubling. All he kept saying is "we scored 28 points, we put up 400 yards" etc etc. Your job is not to create offensive numbers anymore, Freddie. Its to win the game. I don't care how many points you score or yards you put up doing so, as long as you have 1 more point than the other team. You don't get a bonus for beating someone by 10 over. I feel like Freddie still has that OC mindset, and not a HC mindset.

He needs to realize that Baker is struggling. We were up 20-6 at half, and still threw the ball 37 times for the game. NO WAY should we have thrown that much. If you run the ball and bleed some clock, maybe those bad ref calls don't effect the game as much giving SEA and the front runner for MVP a chance.

But he wants Baker to be the hero - and is doing anything he can to put the ball in his hands. SMH

Yep, Hero ball describes it well ... and instead of a hero, he’s a goat right now, If it continues down this same path, then Freddie’s in trouble regardless IMO. You can’t finish the season 6-10 and expect to be back

100% you can, and 100% he will be back, even at 6-10.

Nobody let's a rookie QB pick the HC. There are a lot of silly things said on this board, but that has to be near the top of the list.

I don't believe that. If so, John Dorsey isn't worth a flip as a GM and should be released.

No doubt. Baker very well may have preferred Freddie, but he's clearly Dorsey's hire as evidenced in the Seth Wickersham article.

Today, Dorsey not only got his preferred coach but also his preferred structure. Kitchens will report to Dorsey, forcing collaboration and eliminating the appeals court to Haslam. Nobody knows if it will matter, given how Haslam operates. But for one day, at least, it feels good to be a Brown. As Dorsey privately told an associate: "I flexed my muscles and got what I wanted."

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/2579...history-collide

j/c:

Did Freddie really say "we scored 28 points, we put up 400 yards?" If he did, what was the context? Was he defending himself or just making an observation about how the offense is starting to improve?

Sorry for asking all these questions, but I can't stand listening to press conferences.

He was saying that we played well minus the turnovers ... saying that we did enough to win except our own mistakes

Thanks.

Most items of discussion have been pointed out.
I have one last tidbit from Sunday.

Last year against the Raiders, Nick Chubb's first down was overturned and there was nowhere near a view. Sunday Landry clearly has a TD, but I understand why it was not overturned due to the view. This wreaks of the inconsistency in the NFL officiating. And too often the Browns bear the negative results from horrible officiating.

I hate saying this but Vegas clearly has a hand in how games are officiated.

and he's correct.

Like I said elsewhere: we BEAT THEM, but then we BEAT OURSELVES.

Flat out, we could not get out of our own way long enough to hold on to the win.

A couple things:

1) If the Browns go 4-12 with this roster Freddie is GONE. Period.
2) Freddie saying that he kept his timeouts to score twice before half was either A) arrogant as hell or B) just stupid. I can't decide.

B.

I recall reading Dorsey called Baker and asked his thoughts on who he wanted as HC, and Freddie was the answer.

He was saying that to defend his clock management if I am not mistaken at first. When asked about the end of half. He said he was gong to be aggressive and always will be aggressive. That he wanted to score twice, and wont admit it was a mistake.

he then said it again when they were asking about the game, he just kept talking about how they put up numbers and 28 points. He mentioned it a few times in the interview. Almost like he was saying "hey the offense did great!"

Freddie has taken a lot of heat and much of it is deserved but one thing has been bugging me... who is our veteran leadership?

Between the coach and the roster, every good team has a handful of respected veteran guys who facilitate that camaraderie.. who get 53 guys pulling in the same direction...

Every head coach will tell you the necessity for those guys, they aren't always the best players or the big stat guys on Sunday but they need to be there and they help hold players accountable in ways coaches can't. They need to be as vocal as necessary, lead by example when necessary, rally the troops when necessary... WHO ARE THOSE GUYS?

Thanks.

I used to say this about Hue and I am going to say this about Freddie. Shut up. Do what Belichick does. These damn scoundrel reporters are trying to trip you up and get you to say dumb things. You gotta know that, right? So, shut up and give bland, meaningless answers that piss them off. LOL

yeah his interviews lately seen like he's throwing the team under the bus for his shortcomings as a leader. Not a good look and he's going to start losing his players. If that happens, then we are starting over from scratch. They really need an experienced former HC on that staff to kinda guide Kitchens through this labyrinth. Wilks ain't that guy, he was horrible as a HC in AZ. So noone else on the staff has been a HC. Usually you have a young HC you hire a coordinator that has quite a bit of experience as a HC..Like mcvay has phillips, lafluer has pettine, Nagy has pagano etc

Yeah, that’s a good point. Hiring FK meant we probably needed a more experienced staff, though I’m not sure who was available either

Playing as a team is the main duty of a HC and his staff...This is being stated as if its a fact for any "TEAM"...This is where I have been disappointed with the staff they have not done their duty of getting this "TEAM" playing like a "TEAM" and there is no where else for the Buck to fall...The Buck stop there within the coaching staff

jmho

Gregg Williams?

Landry and Kirksey are the two that I've seen leading the team in those Building the Browns videos. I think Landry is doing a decent job as well, but there's only so much you can do as well if there isn't strong leadership in the coaching staff.

One of the sideline reporters mentioned that Landry came off the field after that bad blocking call and said something along the lines of "We've got to beat the Refs too", and then you get all those sideline shots of Kitchens screaming at the Refs. It reminded me of a coach that my son had in "little league" football. He would relentlessly scream at the Refs about everything. Some of the parents would join in with him, and after awhile the players acted like they were going to get screwed by the refs every game. Then he took a vacation one week, and I subbed in for him. Early in the game one of my receivers collided with a defender as the both jumped up for the ball, and one of my parents immediately started going after the Ref. I turned to him and was like "It's cool, it was just incidental contact. No need to get the Ref all ticked off at us." And the parents played it cool the rest of the game. It was probably the best reffed game all year too.

But then I have these memories of Kitchens screaming at the Refs in the fourth quarter of a meaningless pre-season game. I can't imagine he's much better now. As much as it probably doesn't endear the refs to our cause, I wonder if that mentality is trickling down to the players as well? You've got Landry despondent on the sideline thinking that we'll never get a call, and he's the team leader. As frustrating as those terrible calls are, we need guys (be it coaches or players) to tell everyone to shake it off and win it on the next play. But if the guy at the top isn't doing that ...

I meant a non-bounty-gate-scandal candidate

The problem with the clock management at the end of the first half was that they were rushing and they didn't need to. We were in FG range, we had time to score a TD if possible, we had timeouts.. Yet he and Baker both looked a bit frazzled like they felt like they needed to speed up... Baker forced the throw into the endzone like it was 4th and goal.

this is part of the problem with a rookie HC and a near-rookie QB.. somebody needs to remain calm. I also think we are way too protective of our timeouts at end of half and end of game situations... we have rushed ourselves into mistakes with TOs on the board only to never get a chance to use them..

He said he was trying to hurry up and save the timeouts so we could score, get the ball back then score again.

Yes, idiotic strategy, but that's what he said.

I feel like he needs to just keep his mouth shut in press conferences. He only makes things worse for himself each week.

Ah, got it. I think this is where his inexperience shows at times. I get that he wants to try to think out ahead, that's a good plan... but when a team and a QB has struggled inside the redzone like ours has and you have an opportunity to build on your lead against a very good team.. focus on that opportunity and take it. If we needed to score twice at the end of the game, sure, think like that, but we didn't. That was not only loss of points, it was a HUGE momentum swing.

Agree on all counts.

Especially knowing the history of the Browns right before the half.

So what you're actually saying is that everyone's opinion was taken into consideration or at least listened to in the process.

That in no way indicates that Baker picked the coach.

I can't find anything in Google that provides a source for saying Dorsey actually asked Baker..

But in my search I found something I forgot.. there was actually a Condi Rice rumor as coach? Love her but as an NFL coach? C'mon MAN...

I don't recall anything reported that he asked Baker either. That doesn't mean it didn't happen or wasn't reported, but like you, I couldn't find it and I don't remember it.

Baker did an interview with Tirico and it aired before the Rams game. He made it clear he let his preference be known and that it was Freddie.

That's my recollection of the interview. I think I even commented on it on the board.

Ok, well that's something.. but it doesn't say that Dorsey asked for his opinion, right?

Honestly I don't remember. It might have.

I'm sure it's on YouTube.

I thought it sucked for all the fans who tailgated ..spent time and money on tickets and parking...Rocked the Stadium with their energy... to once again walk out with a team that lost...

yeah, thats the tough part of being 0-3 at home ... kick in the fans groins

And they lost because they were stupid.

It's like rubbing it in your face.

j/c:



Not good.

#FreeToddMonken

The Browns put up over 400 yds of offense. Each INT was due to poor execution. I'm not buying it.

Ehh, that’s not very good to read

Haven't been following this thread. Just wanted to add, Russell Wilson was by far the best player on that field, regardless of positions.

I said this when we hired Monkin. Why don't Kitchens and Monkin switch off on play calling? 2 good play callers. Alternate by quarter one game, by half in another. Mix in a series here and there. If you have two play caller with different tendencies, how can you figure out the tendencies if you don't know who is calling the play?

No kidding. If they knew the plays and still needed all the mistakes and gifts from the refs to win, it doesn't say much for their D.

Why not? From what I read on here, if something works, like handing the ball to Nick Chubb, or running a quick slant route.... you should just keep doing it.. over and over and over...

j/c

Yeah, if you know what the other team is doing on O and still give up over 400 yards and 28 points, I'm not sure you want to tell people about it.

Is it just me or are players trashing other teams in post game interviews as well? Seems like every week somebody has to come out with something to say... is this happening to other teams and I'm just not paying attention?

Seems these teams are mad because the media hyped the Browns in the off-season..

I would be really surprised if players/teams actually took the Browns hype to heart. Your question is a good one, though. I wonder if there's this much post-game trash talk going on with other teams.

It could just be that some guys running around out there have a bit of the Richard Sherman thing going on... they gotta play with that edge, and so they try to get that edge however they can. Gotta convince yourself it's you against the world.

I'm no pro athlete or psychologist, so take this post for what it's worth (not a whole lot).

I am really the wrong person to ask about that. I watch the games and pretty much leave it at that. Over the decades, and especially during the last decade, I just got tired of hearing all the noise.

IMO it's simply gotten out of hand. The Twitterverse and the entire "sound bite/30 second attention span" world is not something that I find attractive nor productive.

In that world, everyone who has an opinion, no matter how far fetched, suddenly has a platform a certain segment of our society feels some need to pay attention to.

I don't doubt that people had the same opinions and views before this catastrophe began. It's just that now they have an audience to listen and publicize it.

There were players in our first few weeks who specifically talked about being tired of hearing about the Browns in the offseason...

And national commentators who openly said they hope the Browns lose because of all the hype (that their peers created)...

I mean, I get it.. you shouldn't get that much hype until you have earned it.. but it wasn't like it was Berea that was making playoff and super bowl predictions, it was the national media..

Ok, I should've been more clear.

I TOTALLY get the Ravens (and Pitt, Cinci) getting ticked about all the Browns hype. I don't at all get San Fran and Seattle players getting all worked up (except for Bosa with the flag-planting connection).

Oh, I absolutely am considering it and it's not just about the INTs. (1) Because I don't think he made it up out of thin air, (2) I think we saw this evolve over the course of the game, and (3) Even I called it that Freddie was going to run the same play with Chubb after that failed challenge on the second 4th and inches attempt (in front of the TV with family as the only alibis). Personally, I think QB sneak was the answer (higher % of being successful) but essentially the SAME PLAY was ran twice in a row. The Baker injury may have muddied the waters on that for Freddie.

You can mention the 406 total yards, but they had 104 yards in the entire second half. The first three drives totaled 189 yards .....guess how many yards remained from drives 4-12? That math isn't hard.

All I'm saying is, as the game progressed, it is plausible to consider that what Shaq is saying is correct. Personally, I don't know why he'd make that up and Browns production waned as the game went on. My concern is, regardless of total yards, is at the end of the day, do teams have leverage over us because of formation coupled with down/distance? Will teams get every guess right? No, of course not. But they are in a much better position to capitalize if they can narrow call possibilities....if this is true.

There were only two drives of 30+ or more yards after the first three drives....Could it be Baker? Or the line? Or (insert issue here)? Yeah, it could. It could also be what Shaq said. I mean, do we hear that quote often in the NFL post-game?

As did I.

I actually said something like watch them run the same play and get stuffed...

Blew my mind.

same here! Totally forgot about that ... but I was like “Watch us run the same play they just saw” .. and then we did ... just horrendous lol

I agree, that was the worst coach call of the game by far.

j/c...thoughts:

Refs sucked. We should have won the game we made mistakes but I don't wish to lose do to Ref input as a big say in the loss. The most haneous of the calls was that defenseless block assessed on Landry after a big run. We went from first down (I think) to 1st and 25. The replay shows the guy that Landry blocked actually saw Landry and it was he who lowered his head and went after Landry with the hit not the other way around. A worst call I have never seen.

Baker not on accuracy especially with OBJ....gee I wonder if him missing training camp had a thing to do about that. Just too many not perfect throws but catchable going off the hands and a few not all but a few ended up in INTs.

Chubb is an elite RB.

We miss Njoku A LOT!!! This new guy 83 RS Jones looks ok but we don't have him in that much...most of the TE reps go to Pharoah and Harris.

I like this kid Lawrence on Defense...
Vernon is almost none existing??? Sometimes I wonder if he's playing and then I see #54 in there.

We miss Zietler.

I think Dorsey has made some mistakes...trading Zietler was one of them the other biggy was missing out on the first pick of the 2nd round on Corbett! We miss that hit big time making the loss of Zeitler bigger!

Robinson and Hubbard are back up players playing the best they can. Reminds me of Browns OL of the past where we would get a guy who started 7 games in 3 years and think he can man a position.

Well those are my thoughts as I watched us lose a game that we should 100% of WON!

Can't wait for Higgins to come back.

jmho

You want to get rid of Dorsey? Best GM we've had in decades? Everyone is entitled to making a mistake. Keep Dorsey, hire a new HC if necessary. Do NOT get rid of the GM. This team is pretty close. Maybe it takes another year or two but we are in a lot better shape than we were under any of the other bums we've had for GM's.