Final draft thoughts - DawgTalkers.net

j/c

Loved the draft..thought we could have done without giving up the picks in the trade-ups but what do I know...one thing I thought FOR SURE and was wrong on was..

I was CONVINCED that after securing the BUF #1 for 2015 we were taking our next shiny QB in 2015...I was CERTAIN that we were not taking a QB this year - until much, much later - after making that trade.

Shows what I knew about that!

I would not have taken JFF there or traded up to get him there...HOWEVER, if I HAD to take one of the big 4-5 QBs...JFF was the one I wanted. (Although I did not want ANY QB in Rd1.)

In my mind JFF was a freebie/throw-in...Gilbert & BUF #1 next year? And throw in JFF? Ok...I'm good with that. (I know it wasn't exactly like that...but that's how I'll remember it.)

I could care less about an extra first next year that will prob be in the 20's

We could have added watkins or evans. I mean if you are gonna go after Johnny KNOWING our wrs are screwed it might behoove them to actually give him a legit target to throw to.

Just think if your a Manziel fan(I am not one and hate the pick) then drafting evans would have given him someone he would have instant chemistry with and had them rocking right off the bat.

thier lack of ability to adapt their draft leaves me very disappointed.

Buffalo was nuts to give us their 1st rd pick. They're not one player away, and watkins doesn't make them better than New England. Manuel isn't a sure thing, and he may bust this year, and it's possible we have a top 5-10 pick next year. I've been watching the draft for years, and don't remember a team giving up a 1 to move up 5 spots, for a team that isn't that good.

I wanted Teddy, or Manziel, so I am happy we got one of them. Just a fantastic draft overall.

Exactly, not to mention that Buffalo defense got worse losing Byrd this offseason.

That defense was pretty meh before Pettine as well, I don't doubt they regress under Schwartz.

Carolina had an awful draft IMO. Way overdrafted Kelvin Benjamin in the first round and didn't get a replacement at LT for Jordan Gross' retirement. Needed a corner bad and drafted Bene Benwerike in the 5th, who is terrible. Drafted a backup DE in the second round who, though he's good, is going to be rotational only when they needed starters. Drafted a RB in the 6th round when they are already 3 deep at the position and they only had six picks. Starting Chase Blackburn again because they got no linebackers in the draft. Only drafter the one wideout... really bad IMO.

Chicago did awesome. Addressed big needs with really good players. That's how you improve your team in the draft.

I don't know anything about the TE they got, but man did Green Bay have a nice draft. The best FS falls to you at 21, you pick up Davante Adams, Abbrederis, and Janis to reload your receiving corps, pickup Linsley in the 5th after people are spending 2nds and 3rds on centers. Bradford to play ILB at 121. Man... that's a nice haul.

Houston's draft... looks like they grabbed a whole bunch of overrated guys to me. Didn't get an ILB. Didn't get a real QB though it was their biggest need. This seemed like a real gutless draft to me.

Indy's draft was awful IMO.

j/c

My brother and I debated these picks neither bending. I thought we do ok liked other guys, but I see where Farmer and Pettine are headed. My brother points out how they missed getting a replacement for Gordon and Manziel the next unorthodox person difficult to find pieces to complement. Both have strong arguments neither able to counter a better alternative. Reading many posts it appears my Brother and I are not that far off in the discussion.

What did we gain?

OL not consist of first or second round draft pick with the exception of Greco a third rounder.

Two corner backs projected to be solid man/zone coverage guys. Something most teams dream about. Adding Desire and Gilbert really adds much needed depth to the CB position. I wonder if Desire can/want to play FS.

RB has really taken a leap. With the return of Lewis and addition of Tate, West, and Pressley Browns created a really solid adverse running corp.

MLB, and I agree with most stumped me, was upgraded with the addition of Kirksey. I look at where he went to school and Frentz being the HC, I have to believe there are at the least positive qualities about this kid.

Negatives:

Browns had 10 picks picking up 6 guys. Sure Farmer used them wisely to get early round picks. What it really showed was the effects of changing coaches and GM did. Farmer, Pattine, and Scouts were not able to adjust in the lower rounds. In the past, fans make it so easy to fire a coach. When in the end, a coaching/GM change has a major impact. Farmer being a rookie added to the problem.

I'm not saying Farmer did not do well. I am saying his game ended after the middle of the second round. It showed just like it did last year when you don't have a full year to prepare for the draft.

How do you go through 2 drafts in a row ignoring the wide receiver position.
You wouldn't go thinking you could be a ground and pound team and ignore the runningback position. A team needs to have 7 top wide receivers, in order to whittle it down to the top 2 or 3.
This team approaches it like if you have 2 wide receivers, then you have 1 too many. I could just go on and on complaining about how they did not pick up any wide receivers, but,...
My complaining is not going to get you W's in the win column.

When the Browns, win playoff games, or make the playoffs, or even get close to making the playoffs, they have much better pass catchers, and they invest in it.
I'm talking about 1989, and 1994, and 2001, and 2007.

They don't have a 7 + year veteran Wide Receiver on this team that has proven he can get it done, and can get you into the playoffs, and has spent several years on the Browns roster. ...
That might be the situation where one could argue for ignoring the wide receiver position.

When you get a brand new Qb, if you want him to succeed, some of the things you could do to help his chances, are get Offensive line, a Tight end, and Wideouts.

But Everybody Knows That. So Why? It's just a letdown. Because I don't expect to see wins, how can one.

Carolina and Indy crapped the bed. Indy has the worst GM in the NFL. So glad we fleeced that clown.

We got some good players from this one.Good T check,RB check,DB check.The rest are ??? for me.My only big issue is not taking a good WR,because I don't care what Ray and Pettine say...a team without kick a$$ WRs,is going to make it hard on an offense.Those guys haven't been with the Browns before,but we have seen this movie,and know what an offense is like with subpar wideouts.That being said,we do have a much better defense now,and should have a strong o-line to bulldoze,and run with.We got a good draft for next year too,so I would say this was a real nice draft for us.Way better draft,than the ones we've had,no question about that.Looking forward to pushing around Bal and Pitt for a change.Should be fun to see their reactions to it.

Overall I'm pretty happy with how the draft went and the players we got. At the end of the day though we have to win.

j/c

I was thinking this as the draft was taking place. More than any other year, it seemed like we were looking scheme-specific and personality-specific. We were very particular and precise with our selections ... almost like we entered the draft with a list of 7-10 people to draft.

If we fire Farmer/Pettine after a year or two, it's basically like throwing out everything. These guys, for better or worse, must be given more time than any other regime. We are married to their players and their philosophies now.

So you're saying the one year we made the playoffs was the fourth consecutive year of picking a WR in the second?

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, and he may bust this year, and it's possible we have a top 5-10 pick next year. I've been watching the draft for years, and don't remember a team giving up a 1 to move up 5 spots, for a team that isn't that good.

Washington gave up even more to go from 6 to 2.. However the value of that pick was much higher given that you were guaranteed Luck or Richardson.. St. Louis ended u trading back again.

I truly believe if JFF was an inch or two taller, that pick would have been worth a king's ransom.

For those complaining about not drafting a WR, I was a little weirded out that that they didn't get one, but let's see how this plays out... They my have a move up their sleeve to trade for someone. I think they have earned at least that much after the way they worked this draft. Lots of cuts coming too.

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How do you go through 2 drafts in a row ignoring the wide receiver position.
You wouldn't go thinking you could be a ground and pound team and ignore the runningback position. A team needs to have 7 top wide receivers, in order to whittle it down to the top 2 or 3.
This team approaches it like if you have 2 wide receivers, then you have 1 too many. I could just go on and on complaining about how they did not pick up any wide receivers, but,...

All I can say look at Seattle and Denver and who owns the Lombardi Trophy. I can almost buy Seattle was lucky. I look at Pittsburgh, Giants, and Baltimore when they won super bowls. All three focused around defense and running.

One last thought, what receivers did Washington have RG III's rookie year?

For those worried about receivers, let's see how Farmer and Pettine play this out before pressing the panic button. What is the worst case we finish under .500 again?

Every year there is top flight receiver. Jets finished with a better record than the Browns with even a worst receiving corp than the Browns have now. Browns have two #1 picks. Pettine's and Shanahan's focus is to get Manziel starter ready.

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For those complaining about not drafting a WR, I was a little weirded out that that they didn't get one, but let's see how this plays out... They my have a move up their sleeve to trade for someone. I think they have earned at least that much after the way they worked this draft. Lots of cuts coming too.

^This. I also believe that Hoyer will make our current receivers better. He throws a very catchable ball, on target and usually leads the WR to produce YAC instead of getting them blown up.

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Negatives:

Browns had 10 picks picking up 6 guys. Sure Farmer used them wisely to get early round picks. What it really showed was the effects of changing coaches and GM did. Farmer, Pattine, and Scouts were not able to adjust in the lower rounds. In the past, fans make it so easy to fire a coach. When in the end, a coaching/GM change has a major impact. Farmer being a rookie added to the problem.

I'm not saying Farmer did not do well. I am saying his game ended after the middle of the second round. It showed just like it did last year when you don't have a full year to prepare for the draft.

I agree with you until the quoted part. I felt all along we were only going to draft 5-6-7 players. We want to get a little older, not younger. Pettine has said this.

To me it isn't about quantity. It is about quality. I think the overall quality of this draft was excellent.

I meant to say receivers. I know atlanta traded a bunch to us for julio, but that was 21 spots. Cant ever remember such a haul for a receiver, from a team that isnt a super bowl threat. I get why atlanta did it. They were a few plays from making the super bowl in 12. buffalo hasnt sniffed the playoffs.

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I meant to say receivers. I know atlanta traded a bunch to us for julio, but that was 21 spots. Cant ever remember such a haul for a receiver, from a team that isnt a super bowl threat. I get why atlanta did it. They were a few plays from making the super bowl in 12. buffalo hasnt sniffed the playoffs.

Yeah, I totally agree. I didn't understand the trade from their side. Are Bills fans mad about this? If Manuel works out, and Watkins is great, I guess I could live with that...

I just never saw Sammy in the same class as Johnson, Green, Julio, etc... He's very good, but he just didn't strike me as that caliber. I'd stick Josh in that group but you actually have to be on the field. Ouch.

Even if the Bills win 10 ballgames next year I still love that we can add another high caliber player.

A buddy of mine is a Bills fan and loved the trade.

I think they gave up too much for the second coming of Charles Rogers.

j/c

People can say what they will, but I believe if you want JFF to succeed, you have to look at one of the major ingredients of his success. A HUGE WR that was his go to guy that he could just throw the ball up and that WR had the physical attributes to go up and take the ball away from defenders.

That part of things were simply ignored. I hear people say that if they had done that, it would have been a panic pick. No, it would have shown the ability to adapt to changing circumstances. In essence, they ignored adding an ingredient that JFF has shown a need to have. So the excuses can keep on flying, but reality dictates they simply don't wash.

They didn't draft an ILB. They drafted and OLB in the 4-3 that they will have to convert to an ILB in the 3-4. Yet that seems to be applauded as some great thing.

Back to the QB. They drafted the most overhyped QB since Tebow. A QB who isn't known to have the ability to read D's, doesn't seem good at going through his progressions and seems to improvise more often than do what good NFL QB's do. Which is read opposing D's, change the call at the LOS, go through their progressions and extend the play within the pocket.

To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.

I'm very underwhelmed overall. While I certainly hope I'm wrong, it doesn't change the way I see this draft. I've seen this year after year where people try to make the best of things. They heap praise on our drafts. And yet all it has gotten us is to 4-12.

I don't see huge playmakers or players who will be game changers in this draft. I don't believe Manziel has the makings of a franchise QB.

Like I said, I'm a Browns fan and certainly hope I'm wrong. I want the best for our Browns. But my view on this draft won't change until hopefully the players drafted prove me wrong.

JMHO

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Speaking of which - one thing that came through in this draft, is how cohesive the FO/coaching staff is. One thing that is clear about every pick we made -- is that they are perfect scheme fits for what Pettine/Shanahan want to do. That speaks to a functional front office which wasn't obvious in previous decisions. That might be the best news to come out of this draft.

I completely agree. Pettine talks about needing LBers with sideline-to-sideline speed, so it shouldn't be a surprise that we get one that does (even if many of us didn't like him as a prospect). I mean, you can go over the talking points on positions and the styles of offense/defense from our coaches and the guys they picked definitely play into it.

It definitely seems like everyone is on the same page. I hope that it is reality.

Everyone in Buffalo is getting fired after this season, you can count on it. If not with current ownership they are all gone with the next. Watkins isn't going to make them a playoff team.

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The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light

Deion Sanders?

I can see all of your points.

I do think Gilbert is the best fit for their system, (mainly because they say he is,) and is definitely top 3, so an excellent addition to play opposite Haden.

I have the same concerns about Manziel as you do, and possibly a few other concerns as well. I do like his arm strength, accuracy, scrambling ability, ability to throw accurately on the run, play making ability, will to win and toughness, so I hope he can develop into a fine starting QB. I want him to sit and learn. The first time I start hearing chants of, "Johnny! Johnny! Johnny!" coming from the stadium, I'm likely going to lose it.

I like the Bitonio pick a lot.

I also like the Kirksey pick because I think he is mainly there to shut down the good pass catching tight ends, and I like the idea that they have a plan for that given their prevalence in the league. I think Mosely was probably one of the players they were trying to go up to 11 for, but when he was taken Kirksey became their guy.

I like the Pierre Desir pick, I think he'll be a turnover machine but I don't know how much we'll see him in the next year or two.

I think Terrance West will be a beast and was a good pickup to augment our running game, and a player that fits really well with Shanny's scheme.

Like you, I hope this proves out to be an epic draft, but I can't say that I don't have concerns or that I wasn't shocked by not taking at least one WR from this very deep WR class. I do, however, appreciate the fact that both Farmer and Pettine seem very happy with the players they did get, even though they were unable to get some of they players they really wanted. (Bortles? Evans? Mosely?)

Yes he went back to the greatest of the past 25 years in a time when they did not throw the ball as much as they do now.

I'm not sure who they "really wanted", but they sure didn't seem shy about moving up and down the draft board. Which I do believe is a good thing. But when you do that, to me that means you do it to target who you really want.

I certainly hope I'm 100% wrong here. But watching film on JFF, I see a great NCAA QB whose skill set simply won't transfer well. I certainly don't discount his will to win and toughness. But on the toughness side, I believe playing against bigger, faster and more physical D's may show his internal toughness to be much greater than his external toughness.

His game is going to have to change drastically if he expects to stay healthy in the NFL.

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I also like the Kirksey pick because I think he is mainly there to shut down the good pass catching tight ends,

If he can do that, then he was worth the reach. I am sick and tired of watching TEs owning the seam and converting 3rd and longs on us, over and over and over.

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But watching film on JFF, I see a great NCAA QB whose skill set simply won't transfer well.

I think a lot of that depends on coaching and willingness to learn. Watching his pro day showed me that he can make all of the throws from the pocket. Showed excellent arm strength and accuracy. If he can learn to trust his line, read the D, and get rid of the ball quickly, (he has shown the ability to find the open man and has the arm and accuracy to get the ball there,) eventually he could pick defenses apart. I know that's a lot of ifs, but he will have to develop to be good, and develop all of those things to become great.

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I also like the Kirksey pick because I think he is mainly there to shut down the good pass catching tight ends,

If he can do that, then he was worth the reach. I am sick and tired of watching TEs owning the seam and converting 3rd and longs on us, over and over and over.

Exactly.

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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.

You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.

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This is why Peen called you a punk. I attempted to be lighthearted, you felt the need to be condescending. Forgot to menton Nmandi during his prime.

Actually, unlike some, I don't really give a damn what anyone calls me. And Peen made it clear that's not what he really thinks.

That's how it goes on the internet. When people disagree with your point of view, they act like they're in Jr. High School again.

So if you think that phases me, you're sadly mistaken. The point was and still is, the best CB's in the game today are pretty physical. You aren't going to stop every pass thrown your way. Physicality can make a huge difference what happens after the catch is made.

Now if you want to discuss the merits of that, then fine. But debating that opinion rather than throwing out insults, would make you look far more credible. Throwing out insults only makes you look bad, not me.

It's all about fit.

He's a ballhawk, playmaker opposite of Haden.

You don't have to tackle if you don't let anyone catch the ball

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You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.

I don't know about the tackling dummy, but I've seen him really lay the wood on the field. Not only in the passing game, but in run stopping. I believe Haden is a very hard hitter.

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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.

You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.

Haden is a really good tackler. He screwed the pooch that one play a couple years ago against Pitt in the 4th quarter but overall he's an above-average tackler as a DB.

Final Thought...

Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.

My thoughts are:

1- Deja vu draft - deep position drafts and we come out with no player. We end up drafting other positions and see the other players develop into stars in other teams

2- The #22 curse, without Gordon, Manziel will have no chances, wasted pick, wasted draft.

3 - Why the hell do we use multiple round 1 pick in the same unit? Still don't understand the need to draft a #2 CB that high - Our best CB has to be better then the oponnent #2 receiver. The #1 WR will be facing double coverage, so we needed to draft a #1 WR capable of beating double coverage, a 2nd round CB or better a 2nd round FS.

4- I hate when we try to be smarter then everyone.

last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.

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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.

Skrine also was getting killed on the screens to his side. Showed why he is a nickle corner, love the kid, but just too small.

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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.

Skrine also was getting killed on the screens to his side. Showed why he is a nickle corner, love the kid, but just too small.

yes, I agree. He improved a ton last year, but he is just too limited on the outside. Life did just get tougher for the slot WRs in our division as well though with his move to slot-CB.

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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.

My recolection is that Haden played most of the times covering the #2 WR and supporting the line.

No CB in this league can cover the top receivers, we saw the problems Haden has when covering the top receivers, and he is one of the best.

Our D will be very easy to beat, if we leave the CB's 1 on 1 then will be tested and beated by the top receivers, If we don't go 1 on 1 they will exploit our middle, which is very weak.

I just hate when we start a season with such glaring holes. No passing game, we lack a #1 WR and a possession receiver, and a very weak midle of the defense, no ILB nor FS....

I don't see us having a moster pass rush nor a monster running game to overcome such glaring holes.

This is my final draft thoughts. Pit, I agree with all of what you have stated. I have only a few things to add.

Like I stated in another post the draft is not only the players selected but the players that could have been selected.

The Browns were 27th in scoring. There were many reasons for that. First is quarterback play. Second lack of a consistent running game. In addition, weak depth at receiver and poor OL play as a unit.

The Browns known mission was find a quarterback. After that it was to upgrade the team as much as possible.

This draft was considered by many to be a very deep draft at many positions especially receiver. The Gordon situation was known before the draft.

The Browns had their pick of any quarterback in the draft. That includes Bortles if they were willing to trade. They evaluated every quarterback in the draft extensively. For all the reasons you stated and more I find it very difficult to see Manziel as the best option at quarterback. Many teams in the market for a quarterback passed on Manziel. The only caveat here is that he was not selected at four.

I can understand the Gilbert pick. Farmer wanted to help Petine run his defense. Going after Revis made it clear that a corner was high on the list. They got good value with trade down/up. Gilbert may be a fine player.

However, they let two premier players go past. A pass rusher and maybe the best defensive player in the draft - Mack. And the consensus best receiver in the draft - Watkins.

When you have a specific need and the best player available is there you do not pass on him and go after another position of need. Again bear in mind the Brown's were 27th in scoring. In total defense the Browns were 9th. In passing defense 8th.

Then you reach for Manziel at 22 giving up a third rounder. That's great if Manziel is way better than Bridgewater who was there without giving up a third round pick that could have been used in "this years" draft.

Bitonio may prove to be a good player but he will need to be measured against Marques Lee who was there. Both address needs. We shall see who proves more valuable.

West, Kirksey, and Desir targeted guys. Who knows? Another running back was needed but did it need to be at the cost of another draft pick?

The Browns went into what was considered a very deep draft with 10 picks. Came away with 6 players and two 2015 draft picks ( a first and fourth).

They had the chance to really have an offense that could scare people. They went in a different direction. Maybe it will work out. I sure hope so.

Say that to AJ Green who he has shut down time and time again (Except one random game where the defense wasn't even set).

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People can say what they will, but I believe if you want JFF to succeed, you have to look at one of the major ingredients of his success. A HUGE WR that was his go to guy that he could just throw the ball up and that WR had the physical attributes to go up and take the ball away from defenders.

I understand what you're saying, but why is it not equally as important on the other side of the ball defending against the pass? If priority on offense is throwing the ball, don't you think it is equally important for the defense to counter attack?

Can you explain how Seattle won the Super Bowl without a superstar receiver? Even though Harvin played he wasn't near his normal game. What happen to Denver if having strong receivers is key? How did the Jets win games?

Watkins is not going to fill Gordon's shoes this year. Browns had a chance to make an average secondary stronger. I get the arguments for having receivers. I do feel Browns need to get a replacement. You can't deny having two man coverage corners with an aggressive front seven is a good thing.

What position is easier to obtain a quality player receiver or corner?

Are we not simply talking two schools of thought. Are we not overestimating one position over another.

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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.

You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.

Pettine said that, in his defense, the corners don't have run responsibility. They are cover men, almost exclusively.

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Say that to AJ Green who he has shut down time and time again (Except one random game where the defense wasn't even set).

yeah, and he struggled some against Antonio Brown in the first matchup but corrected it later. but, he was almost always matched up on WR1, so rastan remembers incorrectly on this one.

here's an article to back up our thoughts:

https://www.bsports.com/statsinsights/nfl/joe-haden-effect

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But watching film on JFF, I see a great NCAA QB whose skill set simply won't transfer well.

I think a lot of that depends on coaching and willingness to learn. Watching his pro day showed me that he can make all of the throws from the pocket. Showed excellent arm strength and accuracy. If he can learn to trust his line, read the D, and get rid of the ball quickly, (he has shown the ability to find the open man and has the arm and accuracy to get the ball there,) eventually he could pick defenses apart. I know that's a lot of ifs, but he will have to develop to be good, and develop all of those things to become great.

I think that Manziel can make every throw on the field, and do so with anticipation, accuracy and placement. His arm is plenty strong enough to make any throw he would ever be called upon to make. His big question is whether or not he can learn to read and diagnose a pro defense. (especially blitzes, which were a huge problem for him in college) I agree with you that his ability to play from the pocket will be another huge test for him. If he can read defenses, handle blitzes effectively, and play from the pocket, , then he'll be fine. If not, then he won't.

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I understand what you're saying, but why is it not equally as important on the other side of the ball defending against the pass? If priority on offense is throwing the ball, don't you think it is equally important for the defense to counter attack?

I understand that train of thought. But as dj so aptly pointed out, we were 9th against the run and 8th against the pass last year. While we were 27th in offense. I think it's very plausible to say if our O could have sustained drives and scored a few more points per game average, not only would it help balance that out, but would help the D be better rested and perform even better.

So while I understand what you're trying to say, we rated very well on D last year and once again used the FA market to upgrade ILB and S with our two biggest investments. At some point you have to bring some balance into the picture.

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Can you explain how Seattle won the Super Bowl without a superstar receiver? Even though Harvin played he wasn't near his normal game. What happen to Denver if having strong receivers is key? How did the Jets win games?

That's using the assumption that Russel Wilson and JFF are the same person. I believe there's a night and day difference. JFF has a history of using a very big WR in order achieve a lot of his success. He isn't known for going through his progressions well. If you're going to draft a QN, I believe you have to set up an environment that plays to his strengths. And throwing to a big go to WR is what Manziel is known for doing.

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Watkins is not going to fill Gordon's shoes this year. Browns had a chance to make an average secondary stronger. I get the arguments for having receivers. I do feel Browns need to get a replacement. You can't deny having two man coverage corners with an aggressive front seven is a good thing.

Oh I didn't advocate drafting Watkins. I think #4 was too high. I would have been happy with a guy like Jordan Matthews who wasn't selected until #42 by the Eagles. Big guy with great speed. The same type as Evans which Manziel worked well with.

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What position is easier to obtain a quality player receiver or corner?

No doubt it's the CB. the question I have is did we draft the best CB and is he aggressive enough to be effective and "great".

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Are we not simply talking two schools of thought. Are we not overestimating one position over another.

I really don't think so. If I were advocating taking a WR at #4 or with a trade down from #4, we would be. My point isn't anything like that. I don't think we would replace Josh Gordon this year. I do believe if you plan to draft a 1st round QB, you need to provide him with a target that's similar to what his go to guy was. To give him an environment with which he has the best chance to succeed based on what his strength was. I believe we could have went a long way in doing that by drafting a guy like Jordan Matthews without a first round investment.

So no, I don't think we have an opposite opinion on CB versus WR.

I think it's funny and just silly to put on a grade on each team's draft. What the heck does it even mean to grade a draft? Nobody will know how good of a draft we have until 2017. All you can be is optimistic or pessimistic about it. I'm pretty optimistic, but I have an idealist personality type so I try to always see the bright side of things. Maybe it's just a negative coping skill that I've developed being a 31 year old Browns fan for my entire life.

Jay Mohr on Jay Mohr Sports today said it best today IMO - Putting any kind of a grade on the draft RIGHT NOW is like having an electrician come redo all the wiring in your house and then telling him how good or bad of a job he did before you even flick on the light switch.

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Final Thought...

Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.

Why?

I think that it all comes down to one huge question, and that is this: Is Manziel an NFL QB or not.

If he is, then this roster is good enough, today, to make the playoffs. Obviously we can't handle a ton of injuries, but most playoff teams don't have superstars everywhere. They have a good to great QB, a solid defense, and many can run the ball when they want to.

We should have a very good defense this year, especially with Gilbert bumping Skrine back inside to cover the slot. I think that their coverage will help the pass rush, and I think that the pass rush will be much improved with Pettine's schemes.

Buffalo allowed only 3300 passing yards last year, and had 57 sacks. They allowed a 55% completion % by opposing QBs, and had the 2nd most INT in the NFL last year, with 23.

I like our corners better than theirs, and I think that our secondary overall will be a strength. Gipson is the question mark, but I think that he can be covered up to some extent by virtue of having great corner play.

I think that we're going to see a whole lot more blitzes than we did last year. By far. Horton never seemed to want to send 5 or more rushers, and when he did, it seemed like no one got to the QB. I think that changes this year. I expect Mingo to be greatly improved if he can have a full camp under his belt, instead of missing a lot of time with injury like last year.

My worry with Pettine's defense is against the run, where the Bills struggled last year. I think that our talent is better suited to play more stoutly against the run though

We should be able to run the ball this year. We signed Tate, drafted West, brought in an intriguing talent in Crowell, and have Baker, Lewis, and Obi all also coming back. We drafted Bitonio specifically to improve the run blocking, and to bring a nasty attitude to the OL. We should be able to run the ball this year,. barring extreme injuries. Even then, though, it seems like some teams always run the ball and others don't. I think it's an attitude that starts with their coaches. Pettine is a tough guy coach, and Shanahan always gets production from the run game. I think that we will run the ball well this year.

If we run the ball, and play defense, and ... the biggest key ..... if Manziel is the right QB ...... then why would we be 2 drafts away from being a playoff team? I don't see that at all. If our defense improves, especially on 3rd downs ..... we are able to run the ball, and Manziel is the right QB, then there's no reason why we can't compete for a playoff spot this year. This team has significant talent on it right now.

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People can say what they will, but I believe if you want JFF to succeed, you have to look at one of the major ingredients of his success. A HUGE WR that was his go to guy that he could just throw the ball up and that WR had the physical attributes to go up and take the ball away from defenders.

I Wanted Evans over Watkins - even if we hadn't drafted Manziel. That would gvie us 3 Wr/TE 6'5" +. Tell what team can match up 3 CB/S with them. Every play would give us at least one matchup with a jump ball advantage.

Only half joking with this next statement but what if we lined up 3 wr all 6'7" or taller. Have them run 10 yards or so and toss up a jump ball to one of them. We could methodically move down the field 8-12 yards at a time. It wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be flashy but it could be unstoppable.

For those arguing we had a sufficient defense to be able to focus on offense I completely disagree. You can spout about the top 10 yardage rankings all you want but the fact of the matter is when you boast one of the worst 3rd down %, red zone scoring % and ppg you are a bad, bad defense.

Who needs to move the ball 400 yards a game if you can efficiently score a higher percentage of your drives than nearly any other team in the NFL? We were a bottom half defense last year, especially when Bryant went down.

Pettine has proven to generate turnovers, negative plays and reduce scoring percentages. Give him all the weapons he needs. There are a lot of variables when your judging a defense. You can't just pick out the ones that fit your story to say your right. Heck I hope we use one of the 1st on defense next year too. We need it.

As I sit here right now ..... not having seen how any single player fits the new offense or defense .... and with no idea what will happen with Gordon ..... I would probably be inclined to go WR and FS, or maybe DE with those 2 first rounders next year.

Of course, who knows how things will develop over this season? Trying to figure it out this early is kinda crazy.

As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over

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It's all about fit.

He's a ballhawk, playmaker opposite of Haden.

You don't have to tackle if you don't let anyone catch the ball

Yep. That's what the purpose of the cornerback is.

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You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.

I don't know about the tackling dummy, but I've seen him really lay the wood on the field. Not only in the passing game, but in run stopping. I believe Haden is a very hard hitter.

Haden isn't a very hard hitter. He barely tackles anyone. He might hit them and knock them down, but he rarely wraps up anyone to bring them down. And, as far as that goes, Gilbert has done as much, maybe more.

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Final Thought...

Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.

I think it's playoff caliber now and it has been for years past. The problem that the team has had is that it's coaching staff has been horrible, year in and year out. It seems that the team finally has real coaches and that's making ALL the difference in attitude.

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Pettine said that, in his defense, the corners don't have run responsibility. They are cover men, almost exclusively.

And he's right. I'm not sure that Chudzinski or Shurmur would ever have been able to understand that.

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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over

Better get them in while you're still breathing, GM.

Octogenarians like you may not have much time left.

JC ... final draft thought.

I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.

Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.

Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.

If we were pushing for contention, then I'd say burn the two firsts on Watkins.

But we're rebuilding...shelling that kind of capital on a WR is too rich for our blood right now.

Pitt, I think Cleveland updated the offense as well. Browns added three RB's to make the offense less one dimensional. They drafted a QB and have a returning QB. I believe Hoyer is an upgrade over Campbell and Weeden. Lastly, they drafted a OL similar to Richie Incognito but with a brain.

I do think Gilbert is the best corner in this draft. You won't find many kids who can play man and zone coverage right out of college. I think the tackle issue is over blown. You also add a punt/kick returner.

Interesting theory on Johnny needing a tall receiver to succeed. True, Johnny made it work in A&M, but have we seen what he did with speed and route runners? Does he have better touch to make Little reliable? Hoyer had some success with Little. IF, and it's a big if, either Hoyer or Manziel can make Little better, Browns will have better weapons then the Jets. Jets won more games with less offense. Kyle's offense in Washington wasn't loaded with high profile receivers.

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JC ... final draft thought.

I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.

Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.

Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.

But Buffalo has Watkins.

They should be Super Bowl bound.

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If we were pushing for contention, then I'd say burn the two firsts on Watkins.

But we're rebuilding...shelling that kind of capital on a WR is too rich for our blood right now.

It's no different with Gilbert. If you pay Hayden coin and Gilbert can match performance, I think Browns will need to pony up a lot of Benjamins!

Final Thoughts...this is the exact draft-blueprint I've wanted for awhile. I love the strategy. We'll see how the picks pan out.

QB/CB/OL have to be drafted early and often. They are just too expensive in free agency.
Trade-back and accumulate future picks, always great value.
Avoid RB/WR early unless they are a complete steal. (use free agency instead, which they already did)
Never reach for need.

I thought the Manziel move was worth the risk, especially after we got BUF's 1st rounder. I kind of thought they should have made a move in round 2 when WRs were flying off the board, but if Farmer can get a FA or trade by September, that's a better route.

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JC ... final draft thought.

I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.

Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.

Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.

How does Hayden and Gilbert sound two man/zone coverage corners? Gilbert possess 4.3 speed pretty quick for a pick-6!!!!

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We should be able to run the ball this year. We signed Tate, drafted West, brought in an intriguing talent in Crowell, and have Baker, Lewis, and Obi all also coming back. We drafted Bitonio specifically to improve the run blocking, and to bring a nasty attitude to the OL. We should be able to run the ball this year,. barring extreme injuries. Even then, though, it seems like some teams always run the ball and others don't. I think it's an attitude that starts with their coaches. Pettine is a tough guy coach, and Shanahan always gets production from the run game. I think that we will run the ball well this year.

YTown, don't forget Browns signed FB Pressley. Adding, as Tab calls it, a snot-knocker will help the run game as well.

Good...

Control the LOS, control the game...Much of what was wrong with Minnesota this year was subpar blocking...

At the same time, you need competent QB play...but control the LOS...that hasn't changed.

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Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.

You'd have liked that better than what we did to our secondary with the Gilbert pick? I ask because I see the Gilbert pick as giving us 2 Joe Haden's with Skrine as the nickle. That's a huge difference from what we've been playing back there.

I dunno, maybe I shouldn't expect Gilbert to be that good.

I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.

We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.

He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.

For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.

Sweet.

Sammy Watkins wasn't a blue chip prospect.

What was he?

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What was he?

A good WR with good speed, average hands, and average height.

He won't be a game breaker in the NFL. He's not a make you miss type guy. He tried to run past and run through guys in college. His route running is good, but not great. He is the WR version of Trent Richardson.

I would have taken Mike Evans in the top ten, if we were to take a WR. But Evans wasn't worth the 4th pick, and he wasn't there for the 9th/8th pick. Gilbert is an elite cover corner who is an inconsistent tackler. I am very confident on Gilbert being a better NFL player than Watkins.

That's some information I bet Buffalo wished they had last Thursday night.

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I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.

We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.

He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.

For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.

Sweet.

We did tough OL dawg, 2 made to order RB's, and a FB. Besides I thought Farmer got two receivers: Chandler Jones & Willie Snead

Most corners don't like to tackle they much rather do pick-6's.

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That's some information I bet Buffalo wished they had last Thursday night.

The information is out there. Whether they choose to ignore it or not, it's up to them. But history shows that WRers who are 6'3" or shorter that are drafted in the top 5...often times they are megabusts.

And to be honest, I just don't see him as a great player. But Buffalo believes otherwise. They are paid to think otherwise. But....I just don't see it.

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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over

That's the easy way. It's all about snap judgments ..... especially with the Browns. These guys have to be great immediately,m or we may up and fire everyone next year.

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I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.

The best Corner in the draft isn't a blue chip prospect?

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We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.

So if Gordon wasn't suspended, you'd be ok with spending the #4 on a "backup"?

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He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.

You want an insurance policy for the guy who's gotten busted for pot, so your plan is to draft another guy whos gotten busted for pot?

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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.

If no one can catch the ball, no one needs to tackle. Leave the tackling up to the LBs and DL.. Maybe Whitner if he gets bored..

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Sweet.

Yes, our defense will be!

I guess that Deion Sanders was a lousy CB .... because he wasn't a tackler either. At all.

He was a great one for shoving a receiver out of bounds, when they made a catch ..... but putting an opposing receiver on the ground wasn't exactly his forte. I would take Sanders at his peak anyway.

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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.

Sweet.

Coach's system calls for coverage corners, and we got the best one in the draft. He has said repeatedly that cover skills is what he was looking for.

Overdrafting a WR with arrests for marijuana possession and possession of a controlled substance? Not what we need.

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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.

Sweet.

Coach's system calls for coverage corners, and we got the best one in the draft. He has said repeatedly that cover skills is what he was looking for.

Overdrafting a WR with arrests for marijuana possession and possession of a controlled substance? Not what we need.

I agree. Some are going to bellyache, mostly those who wanted Watkins from the beginning.

I think selecting the corner was the best move we could make. Our D is going to beast out this season and will be a solid top 10 unit. Maybe top 5.

I don't know why anyone would think there was ever a chance we'd've taken Watkins at 4 anyway. Had we stayed there, it's far more likely they would've selected Khalil Mack. Beyond that, you certainly can't walk away from a future 1st round pick from a division basement dweller for dropping five spots. And we still got the best corner that fit our system.

Didn't we lose every game Haden was out?
It seemed that way, he made a big difference.
Now things will be killer back there.

And think of the potential...

Haden is a shutdown in that QBs don't throw at him...So, if you don't throw at him, you gotta throw at Gilbert...and Gilbert is a guy that gets picks. So he is going to be the guy just jumping routes...Knowing that the ball is going to be coming at him, if he studies the guys hes playing, he can jump routes and be very good at it and get picks on picks on picks...

Think Revis and Cromartie...Revis didn't get that many picks...and Cromartie got 10+ I think that's what we've invested in.

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And think of the potential...

Haden is a shutdown in that QBs don't throw at him...So, if you don't throw at him, you gotta throw at Gilbert...and Gilbert is a guy that gets picks. So he is going to be the guy just jumping routes...Knowing that the ball is going to be coming at him, if he studies the guys hes playing, he can jump routes and be very good at it and get picks on picks on picks...

Think Revis and Cromartie...Revis didn't get that many picks...and Cromartie got 10+ I think that's what we've invested in.

Yup, and if you want to go over the middle, Hitner is waiting to destroy you... I can see the makings of how it can work. If our pass rush is better than average, this will be a top ten defense.

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Didn't we lose every game Haden was out?
It seemed that way, he made a big difference.
Now things will be killer back there.

YES. At times over the past few yearas we've had more than one starting CB down at a time... I would be nice to have solid depth there for a change.

I think we have corner depth this year. That is going to turn the defense......yep, beast mode on the lakefront.

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Final Thought...

Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.

Why?

1. ILB
2. OLB
3. FS
4. WR
5. RB (can be wrong on this one, maybe T. West becomes a star, I have hope)

Don't understand OLB. We're looking pretty good there, with Sheard, Mingo, Kruger and Groves.

Yeah, it's not an ideal OLB unit, but it's not barren.

In terms of what we need to compete for the playoffs, I'd say:

QB
ILB
WR
FS

?
Would you consider any of these guys strong at stopping the run?

Kruger was sold short by people due to the lack of sacks, but his real value was in not letting plays get outside him. From what little we've seen of Groves, he's a run stopper. We had a pretty damn good run D until Groves went down, we were in the top 2-3 in the league. He's not an everydown back, though.

I don't see ILB as a huge need. Teams run sub packages more than 70% of the time. That means Dansby will likely be the only true linebacker on the field most of the time.

I think Gibson is at least average.

QB and WR we have to wait and see. It all depends on Manziel and Gordon.

To be honest stopping the run is not the primary focus of this type of D. No D just abandons it but as a whole it is geared to create turnovers, negative plays and confuse the offense.

If you have the personnel the D can be great. A lot of people still think we need a great ILB and FS to compete but we will be running a lot of Nickle D this year. We will utilize exotic blitzes(Skrine's 4.3 speed from the slot makes me shiver) to put pressure and disrupt what the O wants to do. Sometimes you give up yards on the ground or on big plays if your coverage breaks but you can stop drives with turnovers and negative plays. It is very aggressive football.

We do not need two great ILB to run a great Nickle D. Nor do you need great S's in a system designed to shorten the time of each play. Our D is built exactly how Pettine wants it. He has to be licking his chops.

The D we run the highest percentage of will probably be the nickle so I would dare anyone to tell me a defense that has one the Superbowl the past ten years with all 11 starters much better than our weak link of Gipson. After that Skrine and Rubin are probably the weakest? That's some pretty good weak points IMO. Not to say Whitner, Gipson and Dansby won't need successors or replacements in the next 2-3 years but our CB's, OLB's and DL are set for at least 3 years. Not many D's can say that at all.

Great D's have great coaching and great players. We have the great players time will tell on the coaching. If Pettine's system impacts our D like he did Buffalo last year we have a Superbowl, yes I said Superbowl, caliber D. Now the O on the other hand......

P.S. Some think we should've gone O with the 1st pick and that's OK. I've always believed in building the run and D 1st then inserting a passing game. JMHO

Yeah, WR and FS are still big needs and QB and ILB are filled with "hype" hopefuls. We will find out soon enough about Manziel and Kirksey though.

I will say this and watching West re-inforced my opinion. They DID draft VERY scheme specific. This is both good and bad. Good as in they got their guys to fit their scheme, but if they fail with them and they get fired, this draft class could be completely useless for the next regime even before these guys approach their 2nd contract.

Manziel is Manziel, his "own class/position" guy, Gilbert and Desir are PURE man-cover CBs with disappointing physicality. Kirksey is considered a nickel-LB in most schemes, not a 3-down guy. I guess the plan is to have him covering along with the CBs and one or two S, allowing Dansby and both OLBs to blitz most of the time. Pettine will send 5-6 blitzers regularly. Bitonio is a pure ZBS- OL. West a pure ZBS-RB

This draft class is as boom or bust as I've ever seen a Browns draft in a long time. Maybe Heckert's 2nd draft comes close with Taylor, Sheard, Little, Cameron and Skrine, but at least those guys fit most schemes and were just "raw". This draft class is both filled with rawness AND scheme specific traits IF succesfull. Two bets have to work out on most. Not sure I like the chances of that, but one thing's for sure, it will make or break them and probably the Browns mid term future. I think people still don't realize how important and pathbreaking this draft class is.

Manziel vs Teddy, Bitonio vs Lee/Matthews, West vs Freeman/J.White, Kirksey vs T.Brooks....those decisions will make or break this. Let's hope these guys know what they do...if not, this class could get as ugly as the 2009 one...it has that kind of downside to it, imho (but at least much better upside too. Robo's and Massa's "ceiling was that of a WR2, lol)

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West vs Freeman/J.White

West + Desir vs. M. Bryant + J. White + 6th rounder

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West vs Freeman/J.White

West + Desir vs. M. Bryant + J. White + 6th rounder

Yep, EJ Gaines was still available at 180 or even a medical flyer on Skov. Man, Bryant + White + Gaines/Skov looks a lot better than what we have now. "Trader Ray" sure got a little too trigger happy for my liking. I still can't get over the fact that he basically traded away every 3rd day pick we had (from 5 to only 1) in a deep class. That's where you actually GET the true value. Getting guys at 150+ that have borderline Top100 talent. Instead we moved up or selected earlier from the same tier of guys. That was disappointing...

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Yeah, WR and FS are still big needs and QB and ILB are filled with "hype" hopefuls. We will find out soon enough about Manziel and Kirksey though.

I will say this and watching West re-inforced my opinion. They DID draft VERY scheme specific. This is both good and bad. Good as in they got their guys to fit their scheme, but if they fail with them and they get fired, this draft class could be completely useless for the next regime even before these guys approach their 2nd contract.

While I do agree they drafted very scheme specific and that it lowers the players value if they were to change schemes I think it is a good thing that those players could excel faster and possibly exceed a basic well rounded prospect we are normally accustomed to. Maybe that's not true but it seems logical to me. As far as pertaining to the job this FO is tasked with I see it as smart for them if that is the case. That is to say if I was the FO with a choice between player A and B of the exact same talent, one being an scheme diverse player and the other scheme specific I'd choose scheme specific thinking he has a greater ceiling within that system to excel and not bust despite the chance he doesn't fit the scheme of the guy after I got fired lol.

Also I'm not sure I'd call FS a "need". Sure Gipson is not a true playmaker at the position and if we do roll out a nickle as our base D as I suspect he is our weakpoint I think this D doesn't require a true playmaker at FS. A balanced guy capable of covering a CB's or ILB's mistakes and average at least against the run is very fitting. I just mean to say that if I had to pick where I'd want our "weak link" I'd pick one of the safeties. Especially the one on Hadens side.

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While I do agree they drafted very scheme specific and that it lowers the players value if they were to change schemes I think it is a good thing that those players could excel faster and possibly exceed a basic well rounded prospect we are normally accustomed to. Maybe that's not true but it seems logical to me. As far as pertaining to the job this FO is tasked with I see it as smart for them if that is the case. That is to say if I was the FO with a choice between player A and B of the exact same talent, one being an scheme diverse player and the other scheme specific I'd choose scheme specific thinking he has a greater ceiling within that system to excel and not bust despite the chance he doesn't fit the scheme of the guy after I got fired lol.

Good point that the guys should impact and contribute quicker because of it. I think that applies.
Where I disagree is the "choice" between two similar ranked players. I believe the "scheme fit" factor is already "priced in" the grade and that already skews the value part. If it happens, it has more to do with feeling better about their choices or "falling in love" with particular prospects to the point that they overrate them. It's natural though, happens to everyone. It's not an exact science.

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Also I'm not sure I'd call FS a "need". Sure Gipson is not a true playmaker at the position and if we do roll out a nickle as our base D as I suspect he is our weakpoint I think this D doesn't require a true playmaker at FS. A balanced guy capable of covering a CB's or ILB's mistakes and average at least against the run is very fitting. I just mean to say that if I had to pick where I'd want our "weak link" I'd pick one of the safeties. Especially the one on Hadens side.

Maybe you're right, but Pettine did have Byrd in Buffalo and he may spoiled by him a bit and may be in for a rough wake up call because Gipson is the opposite to Byrd. He sits deep and is pretty bad at playing the ball. He waits for tips and passes bouncing his way and always seems to be two steps back of the action instead of "really" doubling the WR. I see a lot of "not to lose" style of play. He makes sure not to look bad, but that's at the cost of actually helping the team (mate) out. Maybe he just lacks the instincts, I don't know, but I'm pretty confident in what style of play I saw with Gipson last year and I believe it's part of the problem showing itself especially on those 4th Qtr collapses when the other teams were forced to pass and we had no FS "teeing off" Ed Reed style, so to speak. He still played the same and we got methodically and expectably picked apart.

We will see. They did bring in a lot of S in in UDFA, so maybe like with WR they saw the problem but never saw the value in taking one.

Former 2013-2014 Buckeyes in the NFL

Rd 1 - Ryan Shazier to the Steerlers
Rd 1 - Bradley Roby to the Broncos
Rd 2 - Carlos Hyde to the 49ers
Rd 2 - Jack Mewhort to the Colts
Rd 6 - Corey Linsley to the Packers
Rd 7 - Christian Bryant to the Rams
UDFA - Andrew Norwell to the Panthers
UDFA - CJ Barnett to the Giants
UDFA - Phill Brown to the Panthers
UDFA - Drew Basil to the Falcons
UDFA Marcus Hall to the Colts
UDFA - Chris Fields to the Redskins (possible tryout)

Agree 100% Candy.. of course we all "want" the perfect team.. but it doesn't exist and you certainly don't need it just to make the playoffs.. go look at the Seahawks, defending super bowl champs and considered one of the most balanced teams in a long time... they have holes in the OL, they have needs at WR... but they have other areas that are so good that the deficiencies are masked...

ILB depends on how Kirksey does in there. Pettine did pretty well with an ILB last year in Buffalo.

We have an excellent ILB in the other spot in Dansby.

At OLB we have talent and depth. Not every team has superstars at every position, as hard as that is to believe. ''

Gipson will be far better at FS this year, because we'll have far superior coverage from the CB position. (and the slot as well) He probably won't be cleaning up as many mistakes this year, and should develop in his 2nd year. I don't guarantee that he'll be perfect, but I bet that he's a lot better this year with depth and talent all around him in the secondary.

WR .....well ....let's wait and see what happens. The season hasn't begun yet.If Gordon is not suspended, then we're fine. Shanahan uses one big play receiver, and a bunch of other role players.

RB????? We have Tate, West, Baker, Lewis, Obi, and Crowell. That's off the top of my head. That is talent and depth at the RB position. I disagree 100% with your pick of this as a position of weakness.

We addressed ILB this year. OLB is a position of strength, with depth and talent. Gipson, we'll see. WR is probably a need, as of now, but we haven't even starter the season yet. RB is more than fine.

We have 2 firsts, a 2nd, a 3rd, 2 fourths, a 5th, 2 sixths, and a 7th next year. Why would it be that we couldn't address 2 or 3 positions with that kind of draft assets?

If you look around the NFL, teams are not all loaded from top to bottom. Many teams, good teams, playoff teams, have holes. The scheme to protect their weaknesses, and they have a QB who can make plays.

In terms of pure talent from top to bottom, the 49ers were probably the best team in the NFL last year. (from player 1 to player 53)

How good was the talent on the Colts when they drafted Luck? They stunk the year before. They got the QB, and all of a sudden, they were a winning team. If Manziel is the right guy at QB, then this is a playoff team. If not, (and if Hoyer isn't either) then we'll struggle trying to make the playoffs. We are not at all far away from being a playoff team. Frankly, I think we should be there this year if we get any kind of QB play.

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Agree 100% Candy.. of course we all "want" the perfect team.. but it doesn't exist and you certainly don't need it just to make the playoffs.. go look at the Seahawks, defending super bowl champs and considered one of the most balanced teams in a long time... they have holes in the OL, they have needs at WR... but they have other areas that are so good that the deficiencies are masked...

You're dead on 100% right. It's about enforcing your will and strengths against the opposition so much that it compensates for your defects in other areas.

j/c

Hey everyone, I just realized today that I've been a member here for a while, but haven't posted yet. My name's Chris; I've been a casual Browns fan since '98/'99. I love the passion this fanbase has!

Farmer had an excellent draft, in my opinion. Gilbert will be a stud; he's the perfect compliment to Haden. Manziel is a GREAT fit for Shanny's offense; I just hope he can be dynamic on the field without being reckless. He's a bit too cocky if you ask me, but I think once he finds out the NFL ain't the NCAA, he'll get humble real quick.

I think Bitonio will be somewhat of a steal, actually. I'm curious to see if he'll play RG, or if they'll put him at RT and kick Schwartz inside. Kirskey is the only pick that seemed like a reach to me, but I'm not at all familiar with the D Pettine runs, so he could be a perfect fit. Didn't someone say on another thread that Kirksey seems similar to Bills LB Kiko Alonso? That's a good sign, since it shows me Pettine knows exactly which types of players work best in his system.

I don't know much about West, but from what I have read he seems to be a good fit for the offense as well as a nice value pick. I'd say Desir is a solid depth pick at worst, and a flat-out steal at best.

Welcome to the board! You need to have thick skin around here, but we hope you stick around.

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Final Thought...

I agree with WR. You could make an argument for ILB & maybe FS. However those 3 positions won't keep us from making the playoffs.

And how is a team going to make the playoffs without a #1WR, a #2WR, without an elite RB, a line designed to run, and a rookie QB at the helm...

Add to that a week middle defense, without elite ILB nor safeties, and not only I don't see us going to the playoffs, but a high probability of staying at the bottom of our division.

He's too athletic to be "wasted" as a RG imho. He was drafted to be the LG, maybe they "ease" him in at RG, but I hope he can play LG from day one. Greco or even Gilkey are better suited to be a RG, both are less athletic but have mor power to their game. I still think Pinkston is a RT, but if you want him at G, he's a LG only

My OL depth chart wold look like this

LT Thomas/Schwartz/Bitonio/McQuistan
LG Bitonio/Pinkston/Greco/Faulk/McQ
C Mack/Greco
RG Greco/McQuistan/Gilkey
RT Schwartz/Fragel/Wallace/Pinkston/McQ

11 OL, we will keep 9. I see 7 "locks" and 2 open spots up for grabs. Fragel and Wallace will battle for a OT backup job and Gilkey and Faulk for an OG backup spot. Throw in the two UDFAs into the competition

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Final Thought...

I agree with WR. You could make an argument for ILB & maybe FS. However those 3 positions won't keep us from making the playoffs.

And how is a team going to make the playoffs without a #1WR, a #2WR, without an elite RB, a line designed to run, and a rookie QB at the helm...

Add to that a week middle defense, without elite ILB nor safeties, and not only I don't see us going to the playoffs, but a high probability of staying at the bottom of our division.

Ok... seriously?

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Final Thought...

I agree with WR. You could make an argument for ILB & maybe FS. However those 3 positions won't keep us from making the playoffs.

And how is a team going to make the playoffs without a #1WR, a #2WR, without an elite RB, a line designed to run, and a rookie QB at the helm...

Add to that a week middle defense, without elite ILB nor safeties, and not only I don't see us going to the playoffs, but a high probability of staying at the bottom of our division.

I'd settle for very good, which is what Tate can be. Bitonio will increase production from the run blocking perspective. Also, who's to say Hoyer isn't the starter?

We have a 2 time pro bowler at safety and a guy who had a pro bowl caliber year in Dansby.

You don't need an elite RB to win the super bowl. Other than Seattle, all the recent winners didn't have one...

You're always going to have holes. You're just not going to have a pro bowler at every position. It's all about the system, having depth and support in the system, and hitting on late draft picks every once in a while...

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While I do agree they drafted very scheme specific and that it lowers the players value if they were to change schemes I think it is a good thing that those players could excel faster and possibly exceed a basic well rounded prospect we are normally accustomed to. Maybe that's not true but it seems logical to me. As far as pertaining to the job this FO is tasked with I see it as smart for them if that is the case. That is to say if I was the FO with a choice between player A and B of the exact same talent, one being an scheme diverse player and the other scheme specific I'd choose scheme specific thinking he has a greater ceiling within that system to excel and not bust despite the chance he doesn't fit the scheme of the guy after I got fired lol.

Good point that the guys should impact and contribute quicker because of it. I think that applies.
Where I disagree is the "choice" between two similar ranked players. I believe the "scheme fit" factor is already "priced in" the grade and that already skews the value part. If it happens, it has more to do with feeling better about their choices or "falling in love" with particular prospects to the point that they overrate them. It's natural though, happens to everyone. It's not an exact science.

Total agreement on it being factored into the decision and grades. I more so just meant it as an example to question if you agreed with logic in choosing the scheme fit player over the "versatile" player.

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Also I'm not sure I'd call FS a "need". Sure Gipson is not a true playmaker at the position and if we do roll out a nickle as our base D as I suspect he is our weakpoint I think this D doesn't require a true playmaker at FS. A balanced guy capable of covering a CB's or ILB's mistakes and average at least against the run is very fitting. I just mean to say that if I had to pick where I'd want our "weak link" I'd pick one of the safeties. Especially the one on Hadens side.

Maybe you're right, but Pettine did have Byrd in Buffalo and he may spoiled by him a bit and may be in for a rough wake up call because Gipson is the opposite to Byrd. He sits deep and is pretty bad at playing the ball. He waits for tips and passes bouncing his way and always seems to be two steps back of the action instead of "really" doubling the WR. I see a lot of "not to lose" style of play. He makes sure not to look bad, but that's at the cost of actually helping the team (mate) out. Maybe he just lacks the instincts, I don't know, but I'm pretty confident in what style of play I saw with Gipson last year and I believe it's part of the problem showing itself especially on those 4th Qtr collapses when the other teams were forced to pass and we had no FS "teeing off" Ed Reed style, so to speak. He still played the same and we got methodically and expectably picked apart.

We will see. They did bring in a lot of S in in UDFA, so maybe like with WR they saw the problem but never saw the value in taking one.

Again I agree. I am not confident in what I saw in Gipson to be able to consider him more than "not a liability" which I suppose is better than some serious liability starters we are accustomed to. With Pettine having experience with Reed and now Byrd I could see him being spoiled and really valuing a good play maker there. Though, and I find this hard to say, with our amazing defensive talent these days he may just have to deal with only being strong everywhere else haha. I could definitely see the added value of placing a better player over our new shiny CB to help him. Though I would think more often than not Gipson will play over Haden which will hopefully hide his less aggressive nature. While Haden gets beat occasionally with quick double moves rarely does he get beat by pure speed over top.

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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over

That's the easy way. It's all about snap judgments ..... especially with the Browns. These guys have to be great immediately,m or we may up and fire everyone next year.

Was contemplating that just today. Wouldn't it be nice if we could see the Owner, General Manager, Team president, Head coach, and both coordinators, ALL returning for another season, for a change. When this time of year comes around next year.

Kind of worried about the coach the most, because if he doesn't deserve back, I think that's the one spot where teams shouldn't wait to change, once it's clear.

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I think Bitonio will be somewhat of a steal, actually.

I didn't know anything about this guy when they drafted him, but liked how he was described (tough, physical, semi-nasty). Sounded like exactly the type of player Pettine wants.

Then I saw his highlight reel. He's quick...even at OT, but looked like he could have been called for holding on every play. Hopefully a coachable raw talent.

j/c

When I look among the 6 drafted players for the Browns these are the traits I see in common. First, athleticism, I see guys with movement skills; there are no plodders among these players. I also see a that some of these guys have had to overcome some personal adversity. That's the mental toughness Coach Pettine continues to refer to.

I really like this draft class.

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I don't think any of us really saw him... In their post-presser it sounds like he was really high on their board though...

Some of the "experts" had him (pre-draft) sneaking into the bottm of the 1st rd, so he wasn't exactly an unknown...

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I think Bitonio will be somewhat of a steal, actually.

I didn't know anything about this guy when they drafted him, but liked how he was described (tough, physical, semi-nasty). Sounded like exactly the type of player Pettine wants.

Then I saw his highlight reel. He's quick...even at OT, but looked like he could have been called for holding on every play. Hopefully a coachable raw talent.

Yeah we're going off scouting reports with Bitonio. I'm just happy we upgraded the position. Lauvao out, Bitonio in. You're probably better right there. We'll see.

I hope it's one of those moves that goes under the radar because everything else is clicking too...

I think Bitonio will fit in well.

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I think Bitonio will fit in well.

I think so too. We need a bit of a jerk on that line. We're skilled, but I think we're missing that one guy with a bit of a mean streak.