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Sammy Watkins wasn't a blue chip prospect.
you had a good run Hank.
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What was he?
A good WR with good speed, average hands, and average height.
He won't be a game breaker in the NFL. He's not a make you miss type guy. He tried to run past and run through guys in college. His route running is good, but not great. He is the WR version of Trent Richardson.
I would have taken Mike Evans in the top ten, if we were to take a WR. But Evans wasn't worth the 4th pick, and he wasn't there for the 9th/8th pick. Gilbert is an elite cover corner who is an inconsistent tackler. I am very confident on Gilbert being a better NFL player than Watkins.
you had a good run Hank.
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That's some information I bet Buffalo wished they had last Thursday night.
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I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.
We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.
He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.
For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
Sweet.
We did tough OL dawg, 2 made to order RB's, and a FB. Besides I thought Farmer got two receivers: Chandler Jones & Willie Snead
Most corners don't like to tackle they much rather do pick-6's.
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That's some information I bet Buffalo wished they had last Thursday night.
The information is out there. Whether they choose to ignore it or not, it's up to them. But history shows that WRers who are 6'3" or shorter that are drafted in the top 5...often times they are megabusts.
And to be honest, I just don't see him as a great player. But Buffalo believes otherwise. They are paid to think otherwise. But....I just don't see it.
you had a good run Hank.
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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over 
That's the easy way. It's all about snap judgments ..... especially with the Browns. These guys have to be great immediately,m or we may up and fire everyone next year. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.
The best Corner in the draft isn't a blue chip prospect?
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We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.
So if Gordon wasn't suspended, you'd be ok with spending the #4 on a "backup"?
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He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.
You want an insurance policy for the guy who's gotten busted for pot, so your plan is to draft another guy whos gotten busted for pot?
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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
If no one can catch the ball, no one needs to tackle. Leave the tackling up to the LBs and DL.. Maybe Whitner if he gets bored..
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Sweet.
Yes, our defense will be!
Last edited by ThatGuy; 05/13/14 12:04 AM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I guess that Deion Sanders was a lousy CB .... because he wasn't a tackler either. At all.
He was a great one for shoving a receiver out of bounds, when they made a catch ..... but putting an opposing receiver on the ground wasn't exactly his forte. I would take Sanders at his peak anyway.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
Sweet.
Coach's system calls for coverage corners, and we got the best one in the draft. He has said repeatedly that cover skills is what he was looking for.
Overdrafting a WR with arrests for marijuana possession and possession of a controlled substance? Not what we need.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
Sweet.
Coach's system calls for coverage corners, and we got the best one in the draft. He has said repeatedly that cover skills is what he was looking for.
Overdrafting a WR with arrests for marijuana possession and possession of a controlled substance? Not what we need.
I agree. Some are going to bellyache, mostly those who wanted Watkins from the beginning.
I think selecting the corner was the best move we could make. Our D is going to beast out this season and will be a solid top 10 unit. Maybe top 5.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I don't know why anyone would think there was ever a chance we'd've taken Watkins at 4 anyway. Had we stayed there, it's far more likely they would've selected Khalil Mack. Beyond that, you certainly can't walk away from a future 1st round pick from a division basement dweller for dropping five spots. And we still got the best corner that fit our system.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Didn't we lose every game Haden was out?
It seemed that way, he made a big difference.
Now things will be killer back there.
Joe Thomas #73
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Quote:
Quote:
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For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
Sweet.
Coach's system calls for coverage corners, and we got the best one in the draft. He has said repeatedly that cover skills is what he was looking for.
Overdrafting a WR with arrests for marijuana possession and possession of a controlled substance? Not what we need.
I agree. Some are going to bellyache, mostly those who wanted Watkins from the beginning.
I think selecting the corner was the best move we could make. Our D is going to beast out this season and will be a solid top 10 unit. Maybe top 5.
Heard several different people on the radio over the weekend say that Mike Pettine was adamant about getting a corner like Gilbert... To the point of him not being able to run his defense without it... That's why I said in this topic that I believe Gilbert was their guy all along. They just saw an opportunity to switch with Buffalo and still get that guy... I'm sure there was a plan B but they seemed 99% he would be there. I think the switch from 9 to 8 was just them getting antsy. When you have 10 picks you can get antsy if you want to move up and make sure you get your guy. I expect Gilbert to be good pretty soon.
That should free up some of these other guys. I can't wait to see how this group looks. I really hope he straightens Mingo out.
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And think of the potential...
Haden is a shutdown in that QBs don't throw at him...So, if you don't throw at him, you gotta throw at Gilbert...and Gilbert is a guy that gets picks. So he is going to be the guy just jumping routes...Knowing that the ball is going to be coming at him, if he studies the guys hes playing, he can jump routes and be very good at it and get picks on picks on picks...
Think Revis and Cromartie...Revis didn't get that many picks...and Cromartie got 10+ I think that's what we've invested in.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
And think of the potential...
Haden is a shutdown in that QBs don't throw at him...So, if you don't throw at him, you gotta throw at Gilbert...and Gilbert is a guy that gets picks. So he is going to be the guy just jumping routes...Knowing that the ball is going to be coming at him, if he studies the guys hes playing, he can jump routes and be very good at it and get picks on picks on picks...
Think Revis and Cromartie...Revis didn't get that many picks...and Cromartie got 10+ I think that's what we've invested in.
Yup, and if you want to go over the middle, Hitner is waiting to destroy you... I can see the makings of how it can work. If our pass rush is better than average, this will be a top ten defense.
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Didn't we lose every game Haden was out?
It seemed that way, he made a big difference.
Now things will be killer back there.
YES. At times over the past few yearas we've had more than one starting CB down at a time... I would be nice to have solid depth there for a change.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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I think we have corner depth this year. That is going to turn the defense......yep, beast mode on the lakefront.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
Why?
1. ILB
2. OLB
3. FS
4. WR
5. RB (can be wrong on this one, maybe T. West becomes a star, I have hope)
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Don't understand OLB. We're looking pretty good there, with Sheard, Mingo, Kruger and Groves.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Yeah, it's not an ideal OLB unit, but it's not barren.
In terms of what we need to compete for the playoffs, I'd say:
QB
ILB
WR
FS
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?
Would you consider any of these guys strong at stopping the run?
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Kruger was sold short by people due to the lack of sacks, but his real value was in not letting plays get outside him. From what little we've seen of Groves, he's a run stopper. We had a pretty damn good run D until Groves went down, we were in the top 2-3 in the league. He's not an everydown back, though.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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I don't see ILB as a huge need. Teams run sub packages more than 70% of the time. That means Dansby will likely be the only true linebacker on the field most of the time.
I think Gibson is at least average.
QB and WR we have to wait and see. It all depends on Manziel and Gordon.
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To be honest stopping the run is not the primary focus of this type of D. No D just abandons it but as a whole it is geared to create turnovers, negative plays and confuse the offense.
If you have the personnel the D can be great. A lot of people still think we need a great ILB and FS to compete but we will be running a lot of Nickle D this year. We will utilize exotic blitzes(Skrine's 4.3 speed from the slot makes me shiver) to put pressure and disrupt what the O wants to do. Sometimes you give up yards on the ground or on big plays if your coverage breaks but you can stop drives with turnovers and negative plays. It is very aggressive football.
We do not need two great ILB to run a great Nickle D. Nor do you need great S's in a system designed to shorten the time of each play. Our D is built exactly how Pettine wants it. He has to be licking his chops.
The D we run the highest percentage of will probably be the nickle so I would dare anyone to tell me a defense that has one the Superbowl the past ten years with all 11 starters much better than our weak link of Gipson. After that Skrine and Rubin are probably the weakest? That's some pretty good weak points IMO. Not to say Whitner, Gipson and Dansby won't need successors or replacements in the next 2-3 years but our CB's, OLB's and DL are set for at least 3 years. Not many D's can say that at all.
Great D's have great coaching and great players. We have the great players time will tell on the coaching. If Pettine's system impacts our D like he did Buffalo last year we have a Superbowl, yes I said Superbowl, caliber D. Now the O on the other hand......
P.S. Some think we should've gone O with the 1st pick and that's OK. I've always believed in building the run and D 1st then inserting a passing game. JMHO
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Yeah, WR and FS are still big needs and QB and ILB are filled with "hype" hopefuls. We will find out soon enough about Manziel and Kirksey though.
I will say this and watching West re-inforced my opinion. They DID draft VERY scheme specific. This is both good and bad. Good as in they got their guys to fit their scheme, but if they fail with them and they get fired, this draft class could be completely useless for the next regime even before these guys approach their 2nd contract.
Manziel is Manziel, his "own class/position" guy, Gilbert and Desir are PURE man-cover CBs with disappointing physicality. Kirksey is considered a nickel-LB in most schemes, not a 3-down guy. I guess the plan is to have him covering along with the CBs and one or two S, allowing Dansby and both OLBs to blitz most of the time. Pettine will send 5-6 blitzers regularly. Bitonio is a pure ZBS- OL. West a pure ZBS-RB
This draft class is as boom or bust as I've ever seen a Browns draft in a long time. Maybe Heckert's 2nd draft comes close with Taylor, Sheard, Little, Cameron and Skrine, but at least those guys fit most schemes and were just "raw". This draft class is both filled with rawness AND scheme specific traits IF succesfull. Two bets have to work out on most. Not sure I like the chances of that, but one thing's for sure, it will make or break them and probably the Browns mid term future. I think people still don't realize how important and pathbreaking this draft class is.
Manziel vs Teddy, Bitonio vs Lee/Matthews, West vs Freeman/J.White, Kirksey vs T.Brooks....those decisions will make or break this. Let's hope these guys know what they do...if not, this class could get as ugly as the 2009 one...it has that kind of downside to it, imho (but at least much better upside too. Robo's and Massa's "ceiling was that of a WR2, lol)
#gmstrong
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West vs Freeman/J.White
West + Desir vs. M. Bryant + J. White + 6th rounder
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West vs Freeman/J.White
West + Desir vs. M. Bryant + J. White + 6th rounder
Yep, EJ Gaines was still available at 180 or even a medical flyer on Skov. Man, Bryant + White + Gaines/Skov looks a lot better than what we have now. "Trader Ray" sure got a little too trigger happy for my liking. I still can't get over the fact that he basically traded away every 3rd day pick we had (from 5 to only 1) in a deep class. That's where you actually GET the true value. Getting guys at 150+ that have borderline Top100 talent. Instead we moved up or selected earlier from the same tier of guys. That was disappointing...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Yeah, WR and FS are still big needs and QB and ILB are filled with "hype" hopefuls. We will find out soon enough about Manziel and Kirksey though.
I will say this and watching West re-inforced my opinion. They DID draft VERY scheme specific. This is both good and bad. Good as in they got their guys to fit their scheme, but if they fail with them and they get fired, this draft class could be completely useless for the next regime even before these guys approach their 2nd contract.
While I do agree they drafted very scheme specific and that it lowers the players value if they were to change schemes I think it is a good thing that those players could excel faster and possibly exceed a basic well rounded prospect we are normally accustomed to. Maybe that's not true but it seems logical to me. As far as pertaining to the job this FO is tasked with I see it as smart for them if that is the case. That is to say if I was the FO with a choice between player A and B of the exact same talent, one being an scheme diverse player and the other scheme specific I'd choose scheme specific thinking he has a greater ceiling within that system to excel and not bust despite the chance he doesn't fit the scheme of the guy after I got fired lol.
Also I'm not sure I'd call FS a "need". Sure Gipson is not a true playmaker at the position and if we do roll out a nickle as our base D as I suspect he is our weakpoint I think this D doesn't require a true playmaker at FS. A balanced guy capable of covering a CB's or ILB's mistakes and average at least against the run is very fitting. I just mean to say that if I had to pick where I'd want our "weak link" I'd pick one of the safeties. Especially the one on Hadens side. 
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While I do agree they drafted very scheme specific and that it lowers the players value if they were to change schemes I think it is a good thing that those players could excel faster and possibly exceed a basic well rounded prospect we are normally accustomed to. Maybe that's not true but it seems logical to me. As far as pertaining to the job this FO is tasked with I see it as smart for them if that is the case. That is to say if I was the FO with a choice between player A and B of the exact same talent, one being an scheme diverse player and the other scheme specific I'd choose scheme specific thinking he has a greater ceiling within that system to excel and not bust despite the chance he doesn't fit the scheme of the guy after I got fired lol.
Good point that the guys should impact and contribute quicker because of it. I think that applies.
Where I disagree is the "choice" between two similar ranked players. I believe the "scheme fit" factor is already "priced in" the grade and that already skews the value part. If it happens, it has more to do with feeling better about their choices or "falling in love" with particular prospects to the point that they overrate them. It's natural though, happens to everyone. It's not an exact science.
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Also I'm not sure I'd call FS a "need". Sure Gipson is not a true playmaker at the position and if we do roll out a nickle as our base D as I suspect he is our weakpoint I think this D doesn't require a true playmaker at FS. A balanced guy capable of covering a CB's or ILB's mistakes and average at least against the run is very fitting. I just mean to say that if I had to pick where I'd want our "weak link" I'd pick one of the safeties. Especially the one on Hadens side.
Maybe you're right, but Pettine did have Byrd in Buffalo and he may spoiled by him a bit and may be in for a rough wake up call because Gipson is the opposite to Byrd. He sits deep and is pretty bad at playing the ball. He waits for tips and passes bouncing his way and always seems to be two steps back of the action instead of "really" doubling the WR. I see a lot of "not to lose" style of play. He makes sure not to look bad, but that's at the cost of actually helping the team (mate) out. Maybe he just lacks the instincts, I don't know, but I'm pretty confident in what style of play I saw with Gipson last year and I believe it's part of the problem showing itself especially on those 4th Qtr collapses when the other teams were forced to pass and we had no FS "teeing off" Ed Reed style, so to speak. He still played the same and we got methodically and expectably picked apart.
We will see. They did bring in a lot of S in in UDFA, so maybe like with WR they saw the problem but never saw the value in taking one.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
Why?
1. ILB
2. OLB
3. FS
4. WR
5. RB (can be wrong on this one, maybe T. West becomes a star, I have hope)
Bull. You don't have to have zero thin spots just to make the playoffs. Look at the Steelers secondary for years, look at the Pats WRs and TEs last year.. you just need to be good enough in other areas to compensate for it. And we don't have a single unit or a single player that is capable of overcoming other weaknesses...
yebat' Putin
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Former 2013-2014 Buckeyes in the NFL
Rd 1 - Ryan Shazier to the Steerlers
Rd 1 - Bradley Roby to the Broncos
Rd 2 - Carlos Hyde to the 49ers
Rd 2 - Jack Mewhort to the Colts
Rd 6 - Corey Linsley to the Packers
Rd 7 - Christian Bryant to the Rams
UDFA - Andrew Norwell to the Panthers
UDFA - CJ Barnett to the Giants
UDFA - Phill Brown to the Panthers
UDFA - Drew Basil to the Falcons
UDFA Marcus Hall to the Colts
UDFA - Chris Fields to the Redskins (possible tryout)
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
Why?
1. ILB
2. OLB
3. FS
4. WR
5. RB (can be wrong on this one, maybe T. West becomes a star, I have hope)
Ladies and gentlemen this is what I'm referring to when some fans want to have "the perfect team." Mingo is a highly drafted rookie and it would probably be best if we waited on Kruger / Sheard based on the coaching staffs decision not to draft an OLB. We also just signed Tate and drafted West. I agree with WR. You could make an argument for ILB & maybe FS. However those 3 positions won't keep us from making the playoffs.
You're not going to have all 1st and 2nd rounders or you're going to have one expensive team.
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Agree 100% Candy.. of course we all "want" the perfect team.. but it doesn't exist and you certainly don't need it just to make the playoffs.. go look at the Seahawks, defending super bowl champs and considered one of the most balanced teams in a long time... they have holes in the OL, they have needs at WR... but they have other areas that are so good that the deficiencies are masked...
yebat' Putin
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ILB depends on how Kirksey does in there. Pettine did pretty well with an ILB last year in Buffalo.
We have an excellent ILB in the other spot in Dansby.
At OLB we have talent and depth. Not every team has superstars at every position, as hard as that is to believe. ''
Gipson will be far better at FS this year, because we'll have far superior coverage from the CB position. (and the slot as well) He probably won't be cleaning up as many mistakes this year, and should develop in his 2nd year. I don't guarantee that he'll be perfect, but I bet that he's a lot better this year with depth and talent all around him in the secondary.
WR .....well ....let's wait and see what happens. The season hasn't begun yet.If Gordon is not suspended, then we're fine. Shanahan uses one big play receiver, and a bunch of other role players.
RB????? We have Tate, West, Baker, Lewis, Obi, and Crowell. That's off the top of my head. That is talent and depth at the RB position. I disagree 100% with your pick of this as a position of weakness.
We addressed ILB this year. OLB is a position of strength, with depth and talent. Gipson, we'll see. WR is probably a need, as of now, but we haven't even starter the season yet. RB is more than fine.
We have 2 firsts, a 2nd, a 3rd, 2 fourths, a 5th, 2 sixths, and a 7th next year. Why would it be that we couldn't address 2 or 3 positions with that kind of draft assets?
If you look around the NFL, teams are not all loaded from top to bottom. Many teams, good teams, playoff teams, have holes. The scheme to protect their weaknesses, and they have a QB who can make plays.
In terms of pure talent from top to bottom, the 49ers were probably the best team in the NFL last year. (from player 1 to player 53)
How good was the talent on the Colts when they drafted Luck? They stunk the year before. They got the QB, and all of a sudden, they were a winning team. If Manziel is the right guy at QB, then this is a playoff team. If not, (and if Hoyer isn't either) then we'll struggle trying to make the playoffs. We are not at all far away from being a playoff team. Frankly, I think we should be there this year if we get any kind of QB play.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
Agree 100% Candy.. of course we all "want" the perfect team.. but it doesn't exist and you certainly don't need it just to make the playoffs.. go look at the Seahawks, defending super bowl champs and considered one of the most balanced teams in a long time... they have holes in the OL, they have needs at WR... but they have other areas that are so good that the deficiencies are masked...
You're dead on 100% right. It's about enforcing your will and strengths against the opposition so much that it compensates for your defects in other areas.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1
Rookie
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Rookie
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1 |
j/c
Hey everyone, I just realized today that I've been a member here for a while, but haven't posted yet. My name's Chris; I've been a casual Browns fan since '98/'99. I love the passion this fanbase has!
Farmer had an excellent draft, in my opinion. Gilbert will be a stud; he's the perfect compliment to Haden. Manziel is a GREAT fit for Shanny's offense; I just hope he can be dynamic on the field without being reckless. He's a bit too cocky if you ask me, but I think once he finds out the NFL ain't the NCAA, he'll get humble real quick.
I think Bitonio will be somewhat of a steal, actually. I'm curious to see if he'll play RG, or if they'll put him at RT and kick Schwartz inside. Kirskey is the only pick that seemed like a reach to me, but I'm not at all familiar with the D Pettine runs, so he could be a perfect fit. Didn't someone say on another thread that Kirksey seems similar to Bills LB Kiko Alonso? That's a good sign, since it shows me Pettine knows exactly which types of players work best in his system.
I don't know much about West, but from what I have read he seems to be a good fit for the offense as well as a nice value pick. I'd say Desir is a solid depth pick at worst, and a flat-out steal at best.
Last edited by Wheels; 05/14/14 12:50 AM.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,757 Likes: 622
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,757 Likes: 622 |
Welcome to the board! You need to have thick skin around here, but we hope you stick around.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 Likes: 2
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,307 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Final Thought...
I agree with WR. You could make an argument for ILB & maybe FS. However those 3 positions won't keep us from making the playoffs.
And how is a team going to make the playoffs without a #1WR, a #2WR, without an elite RB, a line designed to run, and a rookie QB at the helm...
Add to that a week middle defense, without elite ILB nor safeties, and not only I don't see us going to the playoffs, but a high probability of staying at the bottom of our division.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
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He's too athletic to be "wasted" as a RG imho. He was drafted to be the LG, maybe they "ease" him in at RG, but I hope he can play LG from day one. Greco or even Gilkey are better suited to be a RG, both are less athletic but have mor power to their game. I still think Pinkston is a RT, but if you want him at G, he's a LG only
My OL depth chart wold look like this
LT Thomas/Schwartz/Bitonio/McQuistan
LG Bitonio/Pinkston/Greco/Faulk/McQ
C Mack/Greco
RG Greco/McQuistan/Gilkey
RT Schwartz/Fragel/Wallace/Pinkston/McQ
11 OL, we will keep 9. I see 7 "locks" and 2 open spots up for grabs. Fragel and Wallace will battle for a OT backup job and Gilkey and Faulk for an OG backup spot. Throw in the two UDFAs into the competition
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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