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It's all about fit. He's a ballhawk, playmaker opposite of Haden. You don't have to tackle if you don't let anyone catch the ball 
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You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.
I don't know about the tackling dummy, but I've seen him really lay the wood on the field. Not only in the passing game, but in run stopping. I believe Haden is a very hard hitter.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.
You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.
Haden is a really good tackler. He screwed the pooch that one play a couple years ago against Pitt in the 4th quarter but overall he's an above-average tackler as a DB.
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Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
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My thoughts are:
1- Deja vu draft - deep position drafts and we come out with no player. We end up drafting other positions and see the other players develop into stars in other teams
2- The #22 curse, without Gordon, Manziel will have no chances, wasted pick, wasted draft.
3 - Why the hell do we use multiple round 1 pick in the same unit? Still don't understand the need to draft a #2 CB that high - Our best CB has to be better then the oponnent #2 receiver. The #1 WR will be facing double coverage, so we needed to draft a #1 WR capable of beating double coverage, a 2nd round CB or better a 2nd round FS.
4- I hate when we try to be smarter then everyone.
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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.
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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.
Skrine also was getting killed on the screens to his side. Showed why he is a nickle corner, love the kid, but just too small.
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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.
Skrine also was getting killed on the screens to his side. Showed why he is a nickle corner, love the kid, but just too small.
yes, I agree. He improved a ton last year, but he is just too limited on the outside. Life did just get tougher for the slot WRs in our division as well though with his move to slot-CB.
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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.
My recolection is that Haden played most of the times covering the #2 WR and supporting the line.
No CB in this league can cover the top receivers, we saw the problems Haden has when covering the top receivers, and he is one of the best.
Our D will be very easy to beat, if we leave the CB's 1 on 1 then will be tested and beated by the top receivers, If we don't go 1 on 1 they will exploit our middle, which is very weak.
I just hate when we start a season with such glaring holes. No passing game, we lack a #1 WR and a possession receiver, and a very weak midle of the defense, no ILB nor FS....
I don't see us having a moster pass rush nor a monster running game to overcome such glaring holes.
Last edited by rastanplan; 05/12/14 02:22 PM.
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This is my final draft thoughts. Pit, I agree with all of what you have stated. I have only a few things to add.
Like I stated in another post the draft is not only the players selected but the players that could have been selected.
The Browns were 27th in scoring. There were many reasons for that. First is quarterback play. Second lack of a consistent running game. In addition, weak depth at receiver and poor OL play as a unit.
The Browns known mission was find a quarterback. After that it was to upgrade the team as much as possible.
This draft was considered by many to be a very deep draft at many positions especially receiver. The Gordon situation was known before the draft.
The Browns had their pick of any quarterback in the draft. That includes Bortles if they were willing to trade. They evaluated every quarterback in the draft extensively. For all the reasons you stated and more I find it very difficult to see Manziel as the best option at quarterback. Many teams in the market for a quarterback passed on Manziel. The only caveat here is that he was not selected at four.
I can understand the Gilbert pick. Farmer wanted to help Petine run his defense. Going after Revis made it clear that a corner was high on the list. They got good value with trade down/up. Gilbert may be a fine player.
However, they let two premier players go past. A pass rusher and maybe the best defensive player in the draft - Mack. And the consensus best receiver in the draft - Watkins.
When you have a specific need and the best player available is there you do not pass on him and go after another position of need. Again bear in mind the Brown's were 27th in scoring. In total defense the Browns were 9th. In passing defense 8th.
Then you reach for Manziel at 22 giving up a third rounder. That's great if Manziel is way better than Bridgewater who was there without giving up a third round pick that could have been used in "this years" draft.
Bitonio may prove to be a good player but he will need to be measured against Marques Lee who was there. Both address needs. We shall see who proves more valuable.
West, Kirksey, and Desir targeted guys. Who knows? Another running back was needed but did it need to be at the cost of another draft pick?
The Browns went into what was considered a very deep draft with 10 picks. Came away with 6 players and two 2015 draft picks ( a first and fourth).
They had the chance to really have an offense that could scare people. They went in a different direction. Maybe it will work out. I sure hope so.
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~ Legend
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Say that to AJ Green who he has shut down time and time again (Except one random game where the defense wasn't even set).
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People can say what they will, but I believe if you want JFF to succeed, you have to look at one of the major ingredients of his success. A HUGE WR that was his go to guy that he could just throw the ball up and that WR had the physical attributes to go up and take the ball away from defenders.
I understand what you're saying, but why is it not equally as important on the other side of the ball defending against the pass? If priority on offense is throwing the ball, don't you think it is equally important for the defense to counter attack?
Can you explain how Seattle won the Super Bowl without a superstar receiver? Even though Harvin played he wasn't near his normal game. What happen to Denver if having strong receivers is key? How did the Jets win games?
Watkins is not going to fill Gordon's shoes this year. Browns had a chance to make an average secondary stronger. I get the arguments for having receivers. I do feel Browns need to get a replacement. You can't deny having two man coverage corners with an aggressive front seven is a good thing.
What position is easier to obtain a quality player receiver or corner?
Are we not simply talking two schools of thought. Are we not overestimating one position over another.
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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.
You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.
Pettine said that, in his defense, the corners don't have run responsibility. They are cover men, almost exclusively.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Say that to AJ Green who he has shut down time and time again (Except one random game where the defense wasn't even set).
yeah, and he struggled some against Antonio Brown in the first matchup but corrected it later. but, he was almost always matched up on WR1, so rastan remembers incorrectly on this one.
here's an article to back up our thoughts:
https://www.bsports.com/statsinsights/nfl/joe-haden-effect
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But watching film on JFF, I see a great NCAA QB whose skill set simply won't transfer well.
I think a lot of that depends on coaching and willingness to learn. Watching his pro day showed me that he can make all of the throws from the pocket. Showed excellent arm strength and accuracy. If he can learn to trust his line, read the D, and get rid of the ball quickly, (he has shown the ability to find the open man and has the arm and accuracy to get the ball there,) eventually he could pick defenses apart. I know that's a lot of ifs, but he will have to develop to be good, and develop all of those things to become great.
I think that Manziel can make every throw on the field, and do so with anticipation, accuracy and placement. His arm is plenty strong enough to make any throw he would ever be called upon to make. His big question is whether or not he can learn to read and diagnose a pro defense. (especially blitzes, which were a huge problem for him in college) I agree with you that his ability to play from the pocket will be another huge test for him. If he can read defenses, handle blitzes effectively, and play from the pocket, , then he'll be fine. If not, then he won't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I understand what you're saying, but why is it not equally as important on the other side of the ball defending against the pass? If priority on offense is throwing the ball, don't you think it is equally important for the defense to counter attack?
I understand that train of thought. But as dj so aptly pointed out, we were 9th against the run and 8th against the pass last year. While we were 27th in offense. I think it's very plausible to say if our O could have sustained drives and scored a few more points per game average, not only would it help balance that out, but would help the D be better rested and perform even better.
So while I understand what you're trying to say, we rated very well on D last year and once again used the FA market to upgrade ILB and S with our two biggest investments. At some point you have to bring some balance into the picture.
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Can you explain how Seattle won the Super Bowl without a superstar receiver? Even though Harvin played he wasn't near his normal game. What happen to Denver if having strong receivers is key? How did the Jets win games?
That's using the assumption that Russel Wilson and JFF are the same person. I believe there's a night and day difference. JFF has a history of using a very big WR in order achieve a lot of his success. He isn't known for going through his progressions well. If you're going to draft a QN, I believe you have to set up an environment that plays to his strengths. And throwing to a big go to WR is what Manziel is known for doing.
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Watkins is not going to fill Gordon's shoes this year. Browns had a chance to make an average secondary stronger. I get the arguments for having receivers. I do feel Browns need to get a replacement. You can't deny having two man coverage corners with an aggressive front seven is a good thing.
Oh I didn't advocate drafting Watkins. I think #4 was too high. I would have been happy with a guy like Jordan Matthews who wasn't selected until #42 by the Eagles. Big guy with great speed. The same type as Evans which Manziel worked well with.
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What position is easier to obtain a quality player receiver or corner?
No doubt it's the CB. the question I have is did we draft the best CB and is he aggressive enough to be effective and "great".
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Are we not simply talking two schools of thought. Are we not overestimating one position over another.
I really don't think so. If I were advocating taking a WR at #4 or with a trade down from #4, we would be. My point isn't anything like that. I don't think we would replace Josh Gordon this year. I do believe if you plan to draft a 1st round QB, you need to provide him with a target that's similar to what his go to guy was. To give him an environment with which he has the best chance to succeed based on what his strength was. I believe we could have went a long way in doing that by drafting a guy like Jordan Matthews without a first round investment.
So no, I don't think we have an opposite opinion on CB versus WR.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I think it's funny and just silly to put on a grade on each team's draft. What the heck does it even mean to grade a draft? Nobody will know how good of a draft we have until 2017. All you can be is optimistic or pessimistic about it. I'm pretty optimistic, but I have an idealist personality type so I try to always see the bright side of things. Maybe it's just a negative coping skill that I've developed being a 31 year old Browns fan for my entire life.  Jay Mohr on Jay Mohr Sports today said it best today IMO - Putting any kind of a grade on the draft RIGHT NOW is like having an electrician come redo all the wiring in your house and then telling him how good or bad of a job he did before you even flick on the light switch.
JMHO
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Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
Why?
I think that it all comes down to one huge question, and that is this: Is Manziel an NFL QB or not.
If he is, then this roster is good enough, today, to make the playoffs. Obviously we can't handle a ton of injuries, but most playoff teams don't have superstars everywhere. They have a good to great QB, a solid defense, and many can run the ball when they want to.
We should have a very good defense this year, especially with Gilbert bumping Skrine back inside to cover the slot. I think that their coverage will help the pass rush, and I think that the pass rush will be much improved with Pettine's schemes.
Buffalo allowed only 3300 passing yards last year, and had 57 sacks. They allowed a 55% completion % by opposing QBs, and had the 2nd most INT in the NFL last year, with 23.
I like our corners better than theirs, and I think that our secondary overall will be a strength. Gipson is the question mark, but I think that he can be covered up to some extent by virtue of having great corner play.
I think that we're going to see a whole lot more blitzes than we did last year. By far. Horton never seemed to want to send 5 or more rushers, and when he did, it seemed like no one got to the QB. I think that changes this year. I expect Mingo to be greatly improved if he can have a full camp under his belt, instead of missing a lot of time with injury like last year.
My worry with Pettine's defense is against the run, where the Bills struggled last year. I think that our talent is better suited to play more stoutly against the run though
We should be able to run the ball this year. We signed Tate, drafted West, brought in an intriguing talent in Crowell, and have Baker, Lewis, and Obi all also coming back. We drafted Bitonio specifically to improve the run blocking, and to bring a nasty attitude to the OL. We should be able to run the ball this year,. barring extreme injuries. Even then, though, it seems like some teams always run the ball and others don't. I think it's an attitude that starts with their coaches. Pettine is a tough guy coach, and Shanahan always gets production from the run game. I think that we will run the ball well this year.
If we run the ball, and play defense, and ... the biggest key ..... if Manziel is the right QB ...... then why would we be 2 drafts away from being a playoff team? I don't see that at all. If our defense improves, especially on 3rd downs ..... we are able to run the ball, and Manziel is the right QB, then there's no reason why we can't compete for a playoff spot this year. This team has significant talent on it right now.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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last year, we often left Haden alone on the WR1. I suspect we will do the same this year, but now (if Gilbert is worthy) we can do it on both sides and send an extra pass rusher.
Skrine also was getting killed on the screens to his side. Showed why he is a nickle corner, love the kid, but just too small.
yes, I agree. He improved a ton last year, but he is just too limited on the outside. Life did just get tougher for the slot WRs in our division as well though with his move to slot-CB.
I agree. Skrine can be a decent, but limited outside corner, or can be an excellent slot corner. I would rather have him be excellent at one spot, then "OK" at another. spot.
We greatly improved at corner in this draft, and I am thrilled. I wanted 2 big corners in this draft, and that's what we got. Now we have heavy duty depth at CB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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People can say what they will, but I believe if you want JFF to succeed, you have to look at one of the major ingredients of his success. A HUGE WR that was his go to guy that he could just throw the ball up and that WR had the physical attributes to go up and take the ball away from defenders.
I Wanted Evans over Watkins - even if we hadn't drafted Manziel. That would gvie us 3 Wr/TE 6'5" +. Tell what team can match up 3 CB/S with them. Every play would give us at least one matchup with a jump ball advantage.
Only half joking with this next statement but what if we lined up 3 wr all 6'7" or taller. Have them run 10 yards or so and toss up a jump ball to one of them. We could methodically move down the field 8-12 yards at a time. It wouldn't be pretty, it wouldn't be flashy but it could be unstoppable.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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For those arguing we had a sufficient defense to be able to focus on offense I completely disagree. You can spout about the top 10 yardage rankings all you want but the fact of the matter is when you boast one of the worst 3rd down %, red zone scoring % and ppg you are a bad, bad defense.
Who needs to move the ball 400 yards a game if you can efficiently score a higher percentage of your drives than nearly any other team in the NFL? We were a bottom half defense last year, especially when Bryant went down.
Pettine has proven to generate turnovers, negative plays and reduce scoring percentages. Give him all the weapons he needs. There are a lot of variables when your judging a defense. You can't just pick out the ones that fit your story to say your right. Heck I hope we use one of the 1st on defense next year too. We need it.
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As I sit here right now ..... not having seen how any single player fits the new offense or defense .... and with no idea what will happen with Gordon ..... I would probably be inclined to go WR and FS, or maybe DE with those 2 first rounders next year. Of course, who knows how things will develop over this season? Trying to figure it out this early is kinda crazy. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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It's all about fit.
He's a ballhawk, playmaker opposite of Haden.
You don't have to tackle if you don't let anyone catch the ball
Yep. That's what the purpose of the cornerback is.
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You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.
I don't know about the tackling dummy, but I've seen him really lay the wood on the field. Not only in the passing game, but in run stopping. I believe Haden is a very hard hitter.
Haden isn't a very hard hitter. He barely tackles anyone. He might hit them and knock them down, but he rarely wraps up anyone to bring them down. And, as far as that goes, Gilbert has done as much, maybe more.
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To me, the best pick in this draft was Bitonio. While I like the Gilbert pick, I'm not even sure he was the best CB in this draft. He is not physical and isn't known for his tackling or physicality. The best CB's in this league aren't seen in that light.
You don't even have to leave the team for evidence disputing this. Joe Haden isn't known for tackling the tackling dummy effectively.
Haden is a really good tackler. He screwed the pooch that one play a couple years ago against Pitt in the 4th quarter but overall he's an above-average tackler as a DB.
I think you're seeing things that aren't really there. Tackle totals for his first 4 seasons in the NFL are 50, 53, 40, 43. Gilbert had 12 as a freshman, then 48, 53 and 37. The difference isn't really all that much.
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Quote:
Final Thought...
Our roster is still two good drafts away from being playoff caliber.
I think it's playoff caliber now and it has been for years past. The problem that the team has had is that it's coaching staff has been horrible, year in and year out. It seems that the team finally has real coaches and that's making ALL the difference in attitude.
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Pettine said that, in his defense, the corners don't have run responsibility. They are cover men, almost exclusively.
And he's right. I'm not sure that Chudzinski or Shurmur would ever have been able to understand that.
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As always I will reserve my final draft thoughts for 3 years down the road. Not two days after the draft is over
Better get them in while you're still breathing, GM.  Octogenarians like you may not have much time left. 
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JC ... final draft thought.
I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.
Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.
Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.
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If we were pushing for contention, then I'd say burn the two firsts on Watkins.
But we're rebuilding...shelling that kind of capital on a WR is too rich for our blood right now.
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Pitt, I think Cleveland updated the offense as well. Browns added three RB's to make the offense less one dimensional. They drafted a QB and have a returning QB. I believe Hoyer is an upgrade over Campbell and Weeden. Lastly, they drafted a OL similar to Richie Incognito but with a brain.
I do think Gilbert is the best corner in this draft. You won't find many kids who can play man and zone coverage right out of college. I think the tackle issue is over blown. You also add a punt/kick returner.
Interesting theory on Johnny needing a tall receiver to succeed. True, Johnny made it work in A&M, but have we seen what he did with speed and route runners? Does he have better touch to make Little reliable? Hoyer had some success with Little. IF, and it's a big if, either Hoyer or Manziel can make Little better, Browns will have better weapons then the Jets. Jets won more games with less offense. Kyle's offense in Washington wasn't loaded with high profile receivers.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
JC ... final draft thought.
I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.
Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.
Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.
But Buffalo has Watkins. They should be Super Bowl bound. 
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
If we were pushing for contention, then I'd say burn the two firsts on Watkins.
But we're rebuilding...shelling that kind of capital on a WR is too rich for our blood right now.
It's no different with Gilbert. If you pay Hayden coin and Gilbert can match performance, I think Browns will need to pony up a lot of Benjamins!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742
All Pro
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All Pro
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 742 |
Final Thoughts...this is the exact draft-blueprint I've wanted for awhile. I love the strategy. We'll see how the picks pan out.
QB/CB/OL have to be drafted early and often. They are just too expensive in free agency.
Trade-back and accumulate future picks, always great value.
Avoid RB/WR early unless they are a complete steal. (use free agency instead, which they already did)
Never reach for need.
I thought the Manziel move was worth the risk, especially after we got BUF's 1st rounder. I kind of thought they should have made a move in round 2 when WRs were flying off the board, but if Farmer can get a FA or trade by September, that's a better route.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
JC ... final draft thought.
I think we should have taken Watkins and foregone the extra first next year.
Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.
Now, if Buffalo is as bad as I think they will be, maybe I will rethink that.
How does Hayden and Gilbert sound two man/zone coverage corners? Gilbert possess 4.3 speed pretty quick for a pick-6!!!!
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 2,028 Likes: 14 |
Quote:
We should be able to run the ball this year. We signed Tate, drafted West, brought in an intriguing talent in Crowell, and have Baker, Lewis, and Obi all also coming back. We drafted Bitonio specifically to improve the run blocking, and to bring a nasty attitude to the OL. We should be able to run the ball this year,. barring extreme injuries. Even then, though, it seems like some teams always run the ball and others don't. I think it's an attitude that starts with their coaches. Pettine is a tough guy coach, and Shanahan always gets production from the run game. I think that we will run the ball well this year.
YTown, don't forget Browns signed FB Pressley. Adding, as Tab calls it, a snot-knocker will help the run game as well.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
Good...
Control the LOS, control the game...Much of what was wrong with Minnesota this year was subpar blocking...
At the same time, you need competent QB play...but control the LOS...that hasn't changed.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
Manziel and Watkins sounds nicer to me than Manziel, Gilbert, and extra first.
You'd have liked that better than what we did to our secondary with the Gilbert pick? I ask because I see the Gilbert pick as giving us 2 Joe Haden's with Skrine as the nickle. That's a huge difference from what we've been playing back there.
I dunno, maybe I shouldn't expect Gilbert to be that good.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,746 Likes: 396
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 16,746 Likes: 396 |
I'm tired of passing up blue chip players. It gets old.
We needed another receiver regardless of what was happening with Gordon.
He's an insurance policy as well as gives your brand new shiny QB a much needed weapon.
For a corner who doesn't like to tackle.
Sweet.
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