Pretty brutal. Our defense gives up 15 points and we lose by five.

Welcome to your 2021 cleveland browns...average coach, average qb, average execution, terrible defensive coordinator.

Stefanski must give up the playcalling. Unfortunately it's to late now anyway. I hate saying this I really do, but our playoff chances have been squashed.

We're just not that good. Most overhyped overrated team in the league by far. Oh well.

Pittsburgh was clearly the better team today. Their OL was better than our DL, their DL was better than our OL, their coaching was better than coaching

Gotta clean up the stupid mistakes - drops and penalties shouldn't happen at the rate they did today.

ANALYTICS SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


OFF SEASON HPYE IS BULL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What would Alex Van Pelt have done differently?

Browns always crumble under expectations.

Can't believe how much Stefanski has regressed.

I don't feel like any of these statements are true.

This was just horrible. Jarvis had 2 big drops and a fumble. Stefanski starts getting pass happy and gets away from our identity the moment a lineman goes down.

Our offense sucks right now.

J/C

Would it have killed the Browns to blitz a senior citizen QB a few more times today? I don't care how few points the defense gave up or where it's ranked. Joe Woods plays soft, and it's killing the Browns. On the offensive side, why is Nick Chubb not on the field more in the second half? The team was outcoached and outplayed today, and it's ridiculous.

My thing is who is helping Woods. How does the head man in charge help his really awful defensive coordinator if he's calling plays on offense?

Stefsnski had some house money. He's burned it up.

Stefanski should give up play calling, but he's pretty good at it, but it's too much in real time. But who else are they going to get.

Browns aren't mathematically eliminated, but it's pretty much a dumb cause.

Analytics sucks!!

Stefanski's issue is he doesn't get pass happy especially when it's necessary. He's always trying to run it when he should be passing it.

We gave up 15 points. We should win that game. We basically lost because of Landry's fumble.

Our QB not being able to throw down field at all is also a major problem.

Mayfield's accuracy needs to be examined in my opinion. On deeper intermediate throws, he's struggling quite a bit missing high. It's a trend this season.

Just a disappointing effort today by the offense. Drops, fumbles, penalties, missed throws … and BULLIED up front in the run game.

I love the Browns, but we are losers and the Steelers are winners until otherwise

Situationally on defense we were awful again. Can't get off the field when it matters most.

I agree on the lack of ability to be accurate down the field. Beckham had his man beat and was open in front of the safety; a pass with less arc and more direct towards the receiver and that's a completion. Him having to slow down and jump for the pass allowed the defender who was beat to catch up.

I don’t even remember any long shots down the field. Do we even have an actual deep threat on the team?

DPJ is injured.

Our QB can't throw down field. His left arm is literally being held on by fabric.

That depends on your definition of deep shots.

Stefanski lost this game with his sorry playcalling take shots down the field? does he think four yard passes to Hooper all day will score points? screens and dink and dunk all game....
Keenum could have done that and we could have rested Baker.
Our 2 best receiving options in OBJ and Njouku werent hardly featured at all. 21 million a year to mostly watch and run block .

I guess I'll put all my Cleveland Browns memorabilia up for sale on ebay.

The best way for me to explain this is simply to say watch the playoff game from last season. We were eve more banged up in that game then we are now and less talent. Not to mention have our coaching staff was out. He called a excellent well balanced game. Stefanski is to pass happy which was the knock on him in Minnesota. I like stefanski as a head coach, not as a play caller.

We have a conservative scheme, an average QB, and an average play caller who puts his QB in awful situations acting like they have the lead in the 4th when they don't.

Hard to take shots when all of that is working against you.

Joe Woods name shouldnt be mentioned this week, imo Offense and playcalling lost this game

Baker played well. Lots of no catches today. Landry should never have been activated; he is obviously not himself. The D played well; Woods sucked again. OMG, I hated seeing Ben get this win. I put 50% of this on being too dinged up. The other 50% split between Woods, WRs, and Ski. Ski had some not so great calls. Chubb was pretty much a non-factor as well, he's not right either and should have sat another week.

OBJ used to be a deep threat with the Giants, with Cleveland, not so much

And to add insult to injury, the Bengals lose. Could have made up some ground.

Yep. I wish we could fix him, but I don't think that will happen and he will be elsewhere next year.

Baker doesn’t even look to get him the ball!
He should be featured in the game plan unless he’s playing hurt
It used to be last year that he was trying to force him the ball. Now he’s not hardly targeted..
$15 mil a year to be a decoy I guess..?

It was a rough loss - worse than others - because once again the Steelers beat us. We aren't as good as most of us thought we'd be.

Yep....another one! We are not a playoff team and are now last in the AFCN. When we were a bad team a few seasons ago, I could accept a close loss. Not any longer. We are mis-firing badly...

Anyone else notice Chubb had no 2nd gear...he usually gets up to speed rather quick...seemed to lack that gear today.

Jarvis and OBJ were pretty much useless today.

Our O lacks any identity of rhythm when we can't force the run down an opponents throat...

Higgins had a bone head penalty that did not help

Delpit had some poor angles and wiffs on tackles today, something that was noted in his college tape.

This O is easily the most underperformed facet of our team.

How do we let their mediocre Oline handle us nearly all day.

MAYFIELD!!! Does not need to stop making commercials....

But I thought, He may have Grown past, the over animated celebration of that first down.

Maybe that's what he needs to be, to keep his edge and keep his job, maybe that is his MOXY

But, Superstars can also keep their emotions in check sometimes.
The, act like you've been their before.
Maybe he needs it, to keep his edge, but He can also keep it in check.

If Beckham isn't with the Browns next year and he looks like his old self with another team, that essentially would mean Baker was the problem and not the receiver wouldn't it?

Tired of hearing how great the oline is
Dump OBJ for whatever
No attention to detail (penalties galore)
Every other team converts on 4th and short except the Browns

Been saying that for the longest. We've been so run dependent that when we can't run, we can't do nothing else right. Our pass game over 20+ yards is nonexistent. We need a balanced attack or else we will see this all year long. I don't see Ski making significant changes so saddle up and ride it out like the rest of us.

Could be worse we could have Wentz

Schwartz was as productive today as he would have been on the Practic Squad! zero.

Uhh....? I'm not sure that's the insult you think it is. Wentz isn't playing terrible these days.

One thing I don’t like is how late we seem to get Njoku going.

I like hooper and Bryant, but Chief is our most talented TE.

Baker doesn’t even bother targeting OBJ. It’s like we don’t even use him as a threat. And we can’t blame OBJ because Landry had two crucial drops and a fumble.

Baker had maybe two off target throws. And because I saw so many passes where he literally laser it in, i don’t think baker is all that limited in his throwing.

Which all leads back to Stefanski.

at least we dont have to hear anyone nationally talking about the Browns

You could have Tight End Zach Ertz !!

Mayfield can get the ball in the area of the WR, but I don't think he consistently has the touch to place it where the WR can catch it without a ton of effort on a consistent basis.

Pretty obvious they do not trust him to carry that load, or to be counted on as a 'feature' in the game plan. We are a run first team, where does OBJ factor into that equation as 'featured'?

When we brought him in, they had Baker slinging the ball. Last year that all changed under ski.

Who was it that over hyped us?

Go Carson Go

I agree. Baker is the best option but he always takes all the blame. I don't know why with him it's all his fault but most other QBs don't take the blame in these circumstances when clearly it's elsewhere

Baker spreads the ball around just like he should. WTH has OBJ done here to earn ANY benefit of doubt? But you are right about Landry And Higgins missed some easy catches too! Watched every pass today, and Mayfield was not the problem. Ski was also not why we lost... he was part of the issue but not enough to put the loss on him. Woods letting them drive down and score after the half, right after out TD... you need to make that stop. So WRs, Woods, Ski, and injuries (mostly this) lost us the game.

I have zero faith that this defense can stop any team on 3rd (or 4th!) down, regardless of how many yard they’re defending, particularly in clutch moments. They look good against teams actively self destructing but if the opponent isn’t currently dropping the ball (pun intended), I don’t believe the Browns can exact their will on anyone in clutch moments. Sure, the points might be kept down sufficiently but when you need momentum stops, we got nuthin’.

Conversely, I have zero faith that this offense can convert 3rd and 4th downs in clutch moments. They’ve been hot at times, we know they have all the pieces but right now they just can’t put it together when we need it.

That’s a pretty awful combination. I just don’t believe in them and what’s worse, I really wonder if they believe in themselves. Right now this team is the most embarrassing and disappointing Browns team I can remember. The delta between potential on paper and reality on the field has never been wider. They’re just a mess.

Did you see the beautiful pass that was where you want and Landry fumbled.. he also could have caught the last one

Same as it ever was.

Same as it ever was.

Same as it ever was.

but he'll take all the blame in the media

Pittsburgh is not good at all.
Browns YOU SUCKED TODAY.
Landry..YOU SUCKED worst of all.
No more strong messages to the fans please.
The fans in the stands SUCKED today.
Right back were we started. Yay?

Before the season started I didn't think we would be in the basement of the AFC North but that is where we are. Injuries have killed this season. Baker, Chubb, and OBJ are not 100%. Browns are the most disappointing team in the NFL. They have too much talent to be a last place team. Like I said, injuries have ruined the season. They could still make the playoffs but it's going to be really tough!

Fair. But how often does Landry fumble?

Yes, making the playoffs could be really tough, but other teams will have their issues too, so we are far from out of it. But this one hurt. I'm beginning to think we will be playing for a wild card and that loss to KC is going to end up being a tie breaker that we lose. But if it gets to that point, Woods deserves to sit on his ass during the playoffs.

Anyone know our Defensive 3rd and 4th down stop percentages? Has to be close to the worst in thw league.

I put this game squarely on the shoulders of Stefanksi and his lack of an offensive game plan. It’s like he didn’t know what to do once they contained Chubb.

He's still hurt. The line is hurt, the backs are hurt, the QB is hurt, and the WRs are hurt. I figure we can have one more loss before it gets super tough to even sniff the playoffs. Losses against KC and LAC are going to kill us in any tiebreakers. After another loss, we will be hoping for injuries, miscues, weaker opponents winning against the best teams... not how I saw this year going.

My favorite part of the D only giving up 15 pts is when the Browns went up 10-3, the defense gave up the momentum right back to the Steelers.

Yay, they only gave up 15 pts!

The shine is off Stefanski.

Give me Buffalo's O and QB any day of the week. It's all on Allen and that seems to be ok.

Today, under these circumstances, 15 points was unacceptable.

Browns sucked

Officiating sucked

I was hoping we might be entering a time where we could consistently beat Pittsburgh.

J/C:

Vice Grips, baby!
Heart and soul of the team, baby!

Let's Goooooooooo!

The hype this guy gets by the Browns community (fans, writers, etc) continues to astound me.

Did you get your profile setup on the Bills fan site yet?

Guys were 4-4 and the bengals just lost. The season isn’t over. I don’t like being back in the basement, but it’s not anywhere close to being over.

Right, and being in the basement at 500 and only a game out of the lead with nine more games to go is not so bad compared to past years.

Not yet. Still figuring out a clever username.

Analytics lost that game today, among other things, including playcalling, and effort in the 2nd quarter.

If the Browns play like that, I don't know if there are any other teams in the NFL they can beat. I mean, they could potentially put up a loss against all 31 other teams, if they are as uncoordinated, and non complimentary, and allow analytics, and overthinking to inhibit their effort.

Unfortunatly, the Browns are (non mathematically) eliminated.
UNLESS WHAT! Unless they win the other 5 division games??? (Oh that's gonna happen)

My second favorite part of the game was Stefanski not going for it on 4th and 1 the following drive. Make up your mind bro. You aggressive or not. And he always elects to punt when his defense has shown no signs of stopping the opposing O.

Let me guess, you gotta do better?

Throw that coach of the year award in the trash.

Bengals with drop 50 on this D next week

You can’t win in today’s nfl with the neutered stepfanski offense, even with Chubb and hunt. Cut mayfield and start case if you’re never going to throw downfield.

There’s a reason no one runs the 85 Broncos offense

I'm not doom and gloom but I'm just not excited about our team anymore. We are a below average team right now. We are exactly what our record says.

I honestly thought we should have gone for it. And I still can't believe we didn't get the other 4 th down

j/c:

I know he has an injury and all, but I think Baker has plateaued. Unfortunately, I'm not sure I see the ceiling increasing on this guy and I was one of his biggest supporters. It looks as though his performance early on in his career set a trajectory that has not been met. Not sure it will be.

The Browns is the Browns.

We once again lost because of the person who was seemingly our hero (Jarvis today).

We once again were hindered severely by the Refs. (The go ahead TD the ball was moving and hit the ground as he landed, the punt I'm not sure if it should've been a fumble cuz they didn't replay it, anyone know?)

We once again were out coached by Tomlin. I hate the guy so much but he really does make the difference in these close games. Stefanski had some supremely terrible calls again, but we still probably win if not for Browns curse.

I'm so numb. I miss even being able to get angry.

The Squealers mostly shut down our run game.
The Stools had luck on their side with that TD pass in the back of the end zone in the fourth.

Baker played with guts today, threw the ball well but he’s gonna have to work on his touch, needs to bring more finesse to his arm talent. Has a few of his passes dropped, two by D’Ernest, iirc.

The pittspuke defender made a nice play to knock the call from Landry on the 4th and 12 play. I think it was Minkah.

Gotta credit the Steelborn’s (I made up a new word for them today) defence overall, but we’ve got to cut down on the penalties, and that needs to be a point of emphasis. Too many negative plays today.

Why was there no late hit penalty on the hit on Baker when he was out of bounds? Are the refs stupid or somethin’?

Oh well, tough loss but it’s on to Cincinnati.

Tomlin? Tomlin coached like a clown. Did you see the damn fake field goal? Tomlin got bailed out by his D and Ben getting lucky.

Tomlin got bailed out by our sorry a** offense and play calling.

It’s easy to play defense when there is no threat of the deep ball and you can cover the 1st 15 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. Crowd the box for Chubb and jump short routes

Yea the no call late hit on baker was mind boggling

The issue isn't if he is talented. The issue is if he's a winner.

My feelings are well known but I'm gradually shifting blame to Stefanski. He doesn't appear to be able to rise to the challenge when his offense isn't clicking. He plays the same offense no matter point of the game or situation.

Except if it's the Browns defense. If the Browns defense makes a great play on 2nd down to set up 3rd and long.

On 3rd and long they play off coverage and give the receivers enough room to catch the ball at the first down marker before they tackle them.

Ever since the Chiefs playoff game, it’s alarming the lack of deep ball we have. We are playing in a box

2021 is proving that No amount of talent acquisition can equal championships.

Remember the long haul of team building that began in 1999 to see if they could actually assemble a team that was better than an expansion team??

Well in 2021, they became the most talented team in the NFL, or top 2 at least, and the results are still Last Place
which shows, there must be something else, that's not understood.

Honestly since Baker has been here we've never had a deep ball game. Baker is not a good deep ball thrower. Where he used to excel is in the 20 - 30 yd middle of the field game. But he's no longer doing that. That's it. That's all he brought to the table. What you see is what we are left with.

I think Schwartz was supposed to help develop a deep game, but with him looking completely clueless and Baker not being able to connect on the 2 or so times he's tried to hit him, it looks like Stefanski just stopped calling it. You gotta love a coach who gives up on stuff like that so easily. Most teams will just keep trying it until they succeed.

I cant disagree there.. on 1st and 2nd downs, our defense is all world... but on 3rd and long or 4th.. its like they forget what to do

Scheme. I think Stefanski run first scheme is fine. But here’s how imbalanced we are:

We’re #1 in the league in rushing, yet 27th in passing.

Which means any number of possibilities that’s strictly on the O. Injuries were the easiest excuse and blame early. But now what? Lack of a deep threat? Lack of arm strength from the QB? A coach who rather treat our QB like He does Case, or maybe he just doesn’t trust bakers arm?

Honestly the only way to find out is for Stefanski to take the leash off and just how it goes letting baker wheel and deal. Njoku has deep threat ability. So does our two #1’s.

That’s why I’m wondering what’s up with Stefanski? At the end of the day it’s on him.

Post game thought.
The Browns gave up on the Run after 2 negative plays in the first quarter.
The 2nd quarter demanded a 2 minute offense which prevented going back to the run game.

At the end of regulation the Browns lost, and offense in both halves appeared to come up short.

Giving up on the Run game when the score is close to equal ended badly.

It's like a land war in Asia.

A few more thoughts:

Anyone giving up on the season - or blaming Stefanski - is just being too emotional after a tough loss.
Our D played well, but we needed to do more in the passing game, because Pitt was loaded up to stop the run, and they did.

Technically, we are in last place, but that can change in a hurry in the next few weeks. It is a tightly bunched AFC North, and at least Cinci lost today to the god-awful Jets.

Chubb had a tough time running the ball and Stefanski had no idea what to do other than a 4 yard screen pass to Hooper.
I would have like to seen More D'Earnest Johsnon also after the Denver game. Schwartz is non existent like OBJ, unless he runs a kickoff back to the 18 yard line..
Hooper is slow and average at best, and our other 2 best offensive threats imo, Njoku and OBJ arent hardly targeted Hell, Harrison Bryant is better than Hooper.

Also, I’m surprised more isn’t being said about our penalties. They’re killing us. WTF, Rashard? Get your mind right!
We’ve been given up more penalty yardage than any team in the NFL. That can’t continue.

If you want Baker to be a gunslinger again, prepare to have those 3TD/3INT games more often like he used to do 1st couple years

It's either Stefanski, Woods, or Baker or some combo of the three.

The Browns have played three good teams and an average team and lost them all. They've played 4 bad teams and won them all. In beating the bad teams they still didn't look to be particularly good. The same three guys keep coming up, coach, QB, and DC. Two of those guys are the most important guys on the team.

Stefanski sounded absolutely clueless in his presser. Browns season is done. Put a fork in them.

No risk it, no biscuit

The only thing with Dernest that was kind of apparent today … he’s not a good pass catcher it appears

Cleveland Browns football
Fans giving awful hot takes
Always par for course

No risk it, no biscuit got Jameis 30 INTs and off the team.

Our QB is broken, literally, we can’t throw downfield (which we did quite a bit last year). If we go to our backup QB we can’t throw downfield because the backup is terrible.

OK.

The defense is a problem. That they gave up only 15 points is not the issue. Defense is not just points and yards given up. It is points and yards given up at critical times.

Mayfield played extremely well last year. The offense collectively played well. This year the running game had been good but Mayfield has been far less effective. Is that just because of his injury or is it something else? Teams this year have more film to study and game plan for the offense.

The injuries have played a part in the issues but the nature of football is that players get injured.

I think one critical point is that the Browns have a harder schedule this year and their divisional opponents have not regressed. Pittsburgh may be a bit worse but the Ravens haven’t and the Bengals, in general, have improved.

There is time to reverse the trend. Is the coaching staff up to it?

OBJ. 1 target today….1
The penalty late in the game negated the overthrow

He is not a valued piece of the offense.

Please tell me why he isn’t at $15 mil a year

We run multi receiver personnel less than basically every team. We go with 2/3 tight ends a ton.

Also, this front office didn’t sign OBJ to that contract or trade for him.

I know it’s beating a dead horse, but the Baker OBJ thing is done.
Odell will go somewhere else next year and make more pro bowls I’m sure.
Our conservative offense is no place for a superstar receiver. So I hope we don’t try and sign another one.

Wow , you folks are brutal today .. Maybe should ask Ski to return his Coach of the year Trophy .. Lol

One guy who’s had a great year: Njoku. Props to him.

Newsome has also balled out (and Greedy)

I remember one time in the game when I thought Stefanski was doing the obvious wrong thing (the play call when we went for it on fourth down the first time). I don’t think there is anything specific Stefanski did to lose the game. We lost because of a fumble and two dropped passes.

He is by far our best Wr. Even in our pedestrian Offense, he should have a better stat line than one catch for 6 yards. I know we run multiple tight ends a lot, but still!

That was last year. Our team isn’t well coached this year
One of the most penalized teams in the league

Try to get something out of trading OBJ. The Baker experiment is over. Ward is great if/when he plays. How did we win last week with scrubs and get humiliated this week with the first team!?!?!? AND FINALLY….how many more decades until we see the playoffs again?

So you all think Stefanksi called a great game offensively then? 10 points against an a slightly above average Steeler defense?

I would argue that if our best wide receiver, by far, produces as little as OBJ does then the wide receivers are very bad.

Cause he sucks? He makes pre game warmups look all smoochie with his 1 handed catches. Put him in a game? Can't catch with 2 hands. I guess that would be a place to start. His $15 million a year salary is easily replaced with 1 million a year by a dude that catches balls DURING the game.

Who’s better? Landry? He’s a slot receiver that runs a 4.7 40

We'll always have the 2020 playoff win.

That’s part of my point. Unless he’s washed up at 29 years old and we don’t know that yet, I’m going by his previous performances. I thought he was a gamebreaker, someone who defensive coordinators had to gameplan for… not one catch 6 yards.
Hell, I’m with you. If you don’t even look to throw him the ball, cut him and resign a kid like K’deral Hodge and use the other 14 mil to sign a pro bowl lineman.

Sorry guys. Didn't expect this result. I don't think Cleveland's WRs did Baker Mayfield any favors today.

I guess the same can be applied to Landry now?

Both our top receivers apparently suck. Either that’s the case, or the problem is the HC/QB.

I typically give the QB the most criticism because he has the ball in his hands every snap.

But this season? I think it’s fair to say our HC decision making has been worse than bakers, and it’s not close.

We get pass happy, but then the routes our receivers are running are just glorified run plays anyway. Everything is short.

Just seems like we got 3 big time playmakers/personalities in baker/Landry/OBJ, and yet Stefanski seems to have tightened the choke collar on all of them.

Today’s game showed me that baker has plenty of arm strength, so it seems like he’s being specifically told not to take any chances.

I dunno what the expectations are if that’s the case. We have to let Baker cook. Baker spreads the ball around AND takes shots. But if all he’s allowed to do is spread the ball around short, then not only is it easier for defenses to stack the box, but our passing game doesn’t get into any sort of rhythm.

And that’s still on Stefanski/Berry. If they want to be a run first team, then our offensive talent has to reflect that from the QB on down. I thought we’d be more balanced, but honestly I’m not sure what our identity is.

That was a dud of a game.

The O has no rhythm. The shine is gone, at least for now. The D can't get off the field on 3rd down.

Sorry guys, this season is done IMO. We just don't have it this year. We probably can only lose 1 more game to have any shot and the team is playing like they have another 3-4 losses in store.

I think Kenny Britt dressed as OBJ today for Halloween

Stefanski needs to give up playcalling or move on. Baker had no business playing today. He’s still obviously hampered by the injury.

I’d sit baker rest of season and have him get the surgery now. We won’t be .500 at the end regardless. May as well atleast get healthy and rehabbed

I had a sinking feeling that the Chargers loss was the biggest of the year. It appears like we cant recover

My goodness. Mac Jones is better than Baker Mayfield. Drops back, decisive, throws that result in points.

The most consequential thing that happened to this point is Baker attempting to make the tackle on the INT.

We haven't recovered from the Chiefs loss. The Browns put their entire offseason into that game. To dominate the game the way they did and still lose because they don't have a QB who can bring you back was extremely demoralizing. Don't think for a second the players aren't affected by the Browns history and the "here we go again" mentality. I think the Browns are the most mentally fragile franchise in all of sports. It's somewhat in the franchise's DNA at this point.

They blew their wad on the Chielfs game and have never recovered.

j/c…

- the Browns are an average football team.

- Whether it’s Baker, Landry, OBJ, Stefanski, someone on defense, etc… someone will find a way to shrink in the biggest moment, particular in big games. Today was Landry’s turn to screw up any chance to win.

- Hooper stinks.

- The book is out on Stefanski. This team cannot stretch the field vertically.

- I cannot remember the last time the Browns actually threw the ball in the end zone while in the red zone. They throw it short and hope the receiver can run it in, run and hope and RB runs it in or get sacked.

- That loss about ends the season and it’s not even November.

- The Browns 2 minute and 4 minute offenses are embarrassing.

- This team is a disaster when trying to play from behind.

- The defense cannot force any turnovers.

- Conklin likely done for the season or out for quite some time.

- Not sure this team and the way they’re playing can win even 1 of the next four games.

- Same old Browns.

More like 3 or 4 wins, 'Peen. I am past being disappointed, rather I am disillusioned...

Good point Milk. We are NOT a good team playing from behind … and we FOLD in the clutch

Great point about the redzone. We never throw the ball in the endzone.

Even during Baker's "uneven" first half of the season last year he was still throwing it all over the field and we were good in the redzone, including you know actually throwing the ball into the endzone.

Wth happened?

Agreed. I said at the beginning of the season after looking at our schedule that we may only win 9 games at most. Now we may not win that many. same old story with this team. I know injuries have played a big part but dropping passes at crucial times and fumbling have little to do with that not to mention our D can't get off the field on 3rd down. Those things have always happened to us and still continue no matter what.

Crumbling under expectations.

It's what loser franchiaes do.

Yeah. So, I don't know about all the stuff you posted about coaching/coaches, Baker, etc.

What I DO know is, somewhere in the contract for an nfl receiver, there should be a clause about catching the ball DURING the game. $15 million a year? For what? Injuries and dropsies during the game, but 1 handed catches in warmups? Sign me up for that.

Barring a spectacular trade or two, the playoffs are not in our future. As a team, we are not playing with commitment and emotion. Our offense has enough to win games but the defense....well, Woods has to go. Anyone remember the last time we had a defensive score, or even a turnover?

Another thing... no one is asking Stefanski tough questions in his presser. Why can't you beat good teams? Why can't you play from behind? Why do you not take any deep shots? Why do you not throw it in the emdzome in the redzone?

Schwartz? Pfft. He's a gimmick, one trick pony. Give up too easily? He's lucky I wasn't the coach because I would have cut his ass after he got our QB injured by being a pansy.

He has pretty much been benched for all intents and purposes.

Schwartz was out there for several plays today when we had our three tight packages. That actually tells me a lot about OBJ. He should be the one on the field to stretch the field.

Another question I’d ask: Baker surely struggles against zone. What can we do to fix it?

Does he struggle against zone?

The bigger concern is that Baker becomes the worst QB in the league when pressured.

QFT. See entire thread on this very subject.

He's only out there for window dressing. There is no intent to throw him the ball.

I forgot one...why is the team so undisciplined?

That’s what I’ve gathered … zone/pressure is his weaknesses. And when we get down it’s all exacerbated

can OBJ even be considered a decoy, or threat, any longer? Drops passes even Carlton Mitchell could catch, and has no chemistry with Baker. just bite the bullet and eat his contract this year, and trade him for whatever

Was Kenny Britt and/or Dwayne Bowe more productive than OBJ (this is a serious, unfortunate question)

For all of the money we are paying Obj/Landry/Hooper
They have made a microscopic impact this year to put it lightly

JJ3 picked off Bridgewater in the Thursday night game.

That’s like his one highlight since he’s been a Brown.
Jj3 hasn’t shown much

Folks in this town, and on this board think the Cleveland media is so tough and so negative, but the truth is they are lapdogs compared to the media that coaches in NY, Boston, Philly or Chicago face every week after bad losses. Listen to Stefanski's pressers and its clear these reporters don"t want to make waves. Grossi and MKC are pikers compared to their counterparts in other towns.

We are all aware that this is coming off a mini bye, right? Coach had plenty of time to create an excellent game plan, and yet this was the result.

Defense pretty much held up their end. We held a team to 15 points. People can nick pick about how they scored, but a team as offensively talented as our should be able to clear 15 points by the end of the 3rd quarter, minimum.

Again, I can’t even blame bake. Other one or two throws, he was solid.

I look at the scheme and I have to question whether or not this is the end result no matter who the QB is. There doesn’t seem to be any sort of rhythm to our offense. Everything just seems like a freestyle. We’re a running team, yet go stretches having baker mayfield operate in an empty backfield. The PA aspect seems to be something Stefanski has to force himself to call, even though that’s essential in a run first offense.

I’m not talking tonight but the entire season so far. And the lack of discipline leading to all these penalties are most certainly on the HC.

Remember, that was a major reason for why kitchens got the axe. Obviously nobody is calling for his head, but this team is starting to look as undisciplined as the 2019 team.

Analytics ignored...

Yes absolutely Landry. He's one of the best slot receivers in the NFL. Today was on him and that's brutal but he's still producing at elite levels more often than not.

Nobody gives a rip about somebody's 40 time once the pads are on and the whistle blows. Jerry Rice had a slow 40 time too. The ability to get open, catch the football and make correct reads on routes far outweigh any 40 time in shorts.

Lets not get into Baker bashing. He is what he is. That's roughly NFL average. He's not terrible and he's not elite/franchise. He'll stick in the league a decade or more if his body allows.

That said, you're right. Mac Jones IS better than Baker. It is what it is at this point.

QFT here too. I said this franchise is a joke in another thread. Not this team. Not this coach or QB. Not this season. This FRANCHISE. It's starts with Jimmah Haslam. He never has nor ever will be a good owner and one magical year where the stars aligned last year didn't change that fact.

We play our best when nobody gives us a chance. When we're counted down and out. That's a great trait that comes from Stefanski and Baker IMO. However, this franchise has absolutely no ability to do anything when they've got actual expectations. Any praise from the media local or national. Any level of hype and real hope and they WILL fold their tents, find a way to screw it up and lose. Every time.

Same old Browns.

Just got home from the game. Hour and a half trying to get out of the parking garage. Had great seats and was able to finally get a view of the whole field during plays. IMO, Baker does not see the field. OBJ was beating his man all day. He was behind the defense at least twice and Baker never looked his way. Baker again overthrowing, and throwing behind open recievers. I was always in his corner, but seeing him live changed my mind. He is a middle of the pack game manager. This team will never win a championship with him at QB.

On offense, the whole first half after Conklin went down, they had Hance one on one with Watt, and it was embarrassing. No tight end help, no chipping RBs. Then after the half, they loaded that side, and Watt didn't do much of anything, until, again, he was left with just Hance to block him. Jarvis dropped two very catchable balls, then fumbles on a drive they were moving very well, and definitely felt like they would score.

Pittsburgh's line sucks, yet, we could not get to Ben. When we did, our piss poor soft coverage always left a man open. Our corners play so off the ball it is a joke. We have no good linebackers on this team, and watching live, it stood out big time. And just like clockwork, at the end of the game, with still a chance, the defense gives up another big gainer on a crossing pattern. It was hard to watch.

As for the coach, kick the freaking field goal!!! The kicker was on the field, time stopped, and they pulled him and again went for it with about twelve yards needed. If they take the three there, there was still time to come back for another one.

Biggest takeaway from this game for me, was the Browns had no passion on the field. They looked like they were just going through the motions. What hurts, is the the Steelers looked the same. Boring game.


This team has no playmakers except Chubb. Our receivers including the top two, are not that good, and I hate to say it, but our QB sucks. No playoffs this year, and Cinci will steamroll this team. If they finish .500. I will be surprised. Big names, and bad play. It is sickening.

So Landry is our best receiver? And one of the best slot in the NFL?
He has 182 yards and 0 touchdowns on the year and we are halfway thru the season!

What was this?!? Same here. My buddy was in a different parking location and took him well over an hour to get out as well. Literally not moving at all. Never had this experience before.

I was losing my mind.

Should have went to the W 150th street and caught the RTA!

j/c

Jacksonville, who is arguably the worst team in the NFL, is the only team with fewer takeaways than the Browns defense.


But the QB.....

I said that too during the game … It took me a while to even remember a take away from this year

I tend to agree with the people who were actually at the game and those who do not have access to the All 22. Since his rookie year, one of the biggest knocks on Baler was being a one read QB that has issues going through his progressions and not seeing open receives. Now in Year 4, Baker may have improved some but no where near what he should be. He rarely ever looks at OBJ unless he is first read, which rarely ever happens anyways. I said it a few weeks ago, it appears as if the gameplan is to keep him as healthy as possible for tradebait before the trade deadline or after the year.

The offense has turned very bland and predictable. Just stack the box and force Baker to beat you with his arm seems to be the way to easily beat the Browns. If you do get in a shootout, the Defense will allow you to impose your will on them. We run an extremely conservative Offense and Defense. Outside of the Chicago game the Defensive scheme pretty much blows. Bottom of the League in turnovers. Garrett will get his token sack but the Garrett/Clowney combo hasn't lived up to its hype and they haven't "taken over games" or allowed others to rack up sacks, cause fumbles and interceptions.

What happened to all the great playaction fakes and designed rollouts like in the first 2 games? What happened to the creativity like reverses, Landry/OBJ throwing the ball, Chubb and Hunt in the backfield together...just a new wrinkle or something.


All this adds up to an average team with a .500 record.

I don't know if I'd go so far as saying "never" win a championship. But he's certainly not going to LEAD you to one. Give him a dominant running game, OLine, receivers and defense and he'll look good (who wouldn't?) and he's good enough to be squarely league average. League average QBs occasionally do win Super Bowls when the stars align.

He definitely doesn't see the whole field though. Not just when it comes to OBJ either. How many times has he tried to force a down-field throw, or taken a sack, or scrambled...when there's a guy wide freaking open 5-10 yards in front of him? It's literally happened multiple times every game. Sometimes those throws wouldn't have resulted in a first down anyway, but sometimes they would have. It's a massive issue, and it's a knock that he's had since college.

His eyes are slow. It's not that he doesn't have the will or the work-ethic. It's not that he doesn't have the leadership or the toughness. It's not the he doesn't have the arm strength, talent or accuracy (when his footwork and mechanics are sound at least). It's literally his inability to see things with his eyes and rapidly (important) go through his progressions to find the open man. When given lots of time, he's gotten better at working through his progressions since becoming a pro, but NFL QBs have to be able to do that el rapido against good defenses. It's why he's so bad under pressure.

I mean, you DO realize he was literally injured on the first drive of the 2nd game of the season and was DNP while on IR for weeks 3-6 right?

So he has 182 yards and 0 TD in 3 games (and 1 drive) with Baker Mayfield at QB (and one of those 3 games was with Case Keenum).

Yes, he's still one of the best slot receivers in the NFL, even if he was very very bad today.

It's maddening. He doesn't "feel" pressure, he looks at it. Once he is moved off his spot, it is as if he has no idea where his receivers are going to be. Sometimes I really think his height is a problem. Just a game or two ago, when he ran when there was an open RB, can't remember who, clearly within five or ten yards of him. If you look at the replay, I don't think he even saw him. How many times are guys crossing the middle with a step on the defender, and his throw is late or off target. I truly believe he can't see them.

I'm not a coach or a professional analyst, but my eyes were opened today. When under pressure, I believe he has trouble figuring out where his receivers are , due to not being able to see them, or not being able to remember once pressured.

Cooper Rush for Baker, who says no?

I believe it was Felton who was literally standing 5 yards in front of him wide open and Baker never saw him. That relates my previous post.

Also, I remember when Baker would throw balls to his receivers as soon as he saw the Defensive player turn his back. Whatever happened to that Baker? Do we have end zone fades in our playbook?

Most of Baker's peers have gotten better while he's regressed. Feels like something destined to happen to Cleveland. So discouraging.

I have zero excitement for the rest of the season. I was concerned when Baker was average in training camp. Most of the beat writers wrote it off as he's always been a better game player than practice player. I accepted that as probable. Looks like it's carried over to the games.

The observation of Baker doesn't feel pressure, he stares at it, is an excellent one. Watch Allen and Burrow feel pressure and slightly shift the pocket left or right. Its why Burrow even with his noodle arm is playing well. Baker never does this. He just seems completely lost.

Its year 4. It's probably not getting any better. And don't know where you even go from here. We are the Minnesota vikings.

Or worse, a Jeff Fisher Titans team.

You go all in on Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers.

I think Stefanski has to bear some responsibility for Baker's failures. Baker doesn't do anything well anymore.

The Browns season is over. You can't win with this kind of incompetence at the head coach and QB positions. Here's what I would do for next season ...

1. Trade or release OBJ. It's not working and I think it's making things worse for Baker.

2. Turn over playcalling duties to AVP. We need a CEO coach, not someone who only pays attention to one side of the ball.

3. Let Baker and AVP tweak the offense. I would prefer we ran something closer to Cincy and Buffalo where the QB is the focal point.

4. Hire an experienced DC.

A major part of the problem is that Baker is essentially a pocket passer. Very few planned rollouts with him these days as the shoulder is of concern.

The WR’s are showing to be less than average. And I am being nice.

Nothing beyond 20 yards, the Browns are predictable and easy to defend.

This all seems like a tremendous overreaction to one game (except for the OBJ part). Stefanski was hired to run his offense. We were in the position to win against a good defense if it were not individual failures.

I don’t know what you mean by an experienced coordinator but Joe Woods was a successful coordinator for two years with Denver.

Likely Dallas. Why would they want to overpay for a backup QB? They'd likely want some significant draft picks to even consider that deal.

Yep this is a definite worry. We're good enough to never get a top pick to get the talent we really need, yet not good enough to actually make/win playoff games (minus a fluke it's looking like last year). The proverbial no mans land. Terrible place to be.

You guys ragging Baker do realize he playing with a broken upper arm and a torn labrum in his shoulder right? He shouldn't even be playing but is playing his heart out in spite of a season ending injury. Give the guy a freaking break!!!

Now if you want to criticize our HC for letting him play then feel free. Just how bad is our back QB that Baker is still out there with the severe injuries that he is suffering from right now. Throwing deep should not even be in the playbook right now.

We have a lot of guys who are playing hurt so it's going to be ugly like this for a while. I just hope we are in a spot to fight for a wild card spot after we finally get a bye week at the end of the season.

To be clear, I was joking about Baker. I think it’s pretty obvious the injury is limiting him.

Maybe the Browns will not win another game all year!

It is NOT an overreaction to One Game!!!
It is an overreaction to EIGHT GAMES!!! and a visible probability that the remaining 9 games are only going to be similarly bad, based on the patterns.

For the most part I agree. Especially about the defense being conservative. Last season woods , out of all defensive coordinators, was 2nd to last in blitzes called. As I have said before, he tries to run a glorified version of a prevent defense. Now, could it be that stefanski is the one telling him to run that glorified prevent defense? That I dont know. However whoever it is, I hope they realize that it's not working. All the money and talent we added to the defense is being wasted, and we are running out of time. Its gotten to the point that we pretty much have to win all or most of our remaining games. 12 it 13 wins will give us a decent chance at a wildcard at least. However, we are up against it. Another two or three losses and that is probably that, as in the end of our playoff Hope's. it's a uphill battle, I dont like our chances, but I still havent given up hope of making the playoffs yet

Kinda just looking at the scores … it appears that we stink.

Chargers looked unstoppable against us and have lost ever since
Texans are a dumpster fire
Bears are the most “meh” team in the NFL
Vikings just lost to Cooper Rush in primetime
Denver is the next most “meh” team in the NFL
Steelers are incredibly offensively challenged
Chiefs are under .500


We don’t belong in the same sentence as the Bills, Ravens, Titans, Rams, etc

Sometimes I feel like I'm watching a different game than some of you. Tom Brady could be our QB and Landry would still have fumbled the ball, OBJ would still have stopped his route to watch the ball sail over his head and they both would still drop passes. We should probably address the problem before we start calling Baker average. We could go "all in on Rodgers or Wilson" (which is actually the silliest thing you'll read on here all day) but we'd still have the same issues we have today.

As Browns fans we'd still be here complaining that Wilson missed that open receiver or he's too short to play quarterback for the Browns. It'll never end. Anyone who thinks Baker is an "average" quarterback should be relegated to 2016-2017.

We pay OBJ and Landry a really nice salary, each, but there isn't a team of the remaining 31 that would swap us receivers even if we paid half their salaries. More teams would take Baker and pay him 30 million than take either one of our supposed top 2 WR at their current salary. But the narrative will remain.... Landry had a bad game and Baker needs to go.

Huge disappointment.

Hard to believe that this team lost to that team at home.

However, that is what happens when one team makes plays and doesn't make mistakes.

And the other team does not plays that are there and makes mistakes.

That pretty much sums it up.

Penalty's, drops, fumble. And a guy makes a great play for a TD. Doesn't take much more to lose in the NFL.

Faulting Baker for the lose is absurd. But that is what we get around here.

Here’s the troubling thing: WE are the team making the mistakes this year, whereas last year it was the opposite. Think back to our losses … WE are the ones turning it over, making dumb penalties, dropping passes, etc.

Joe Woods - if he was a successful D coordinator for Denver, how or why did he end up as being a D-Backs coach in his next gig? I can't speak for anyone else but I am still highly concerned - and the Pit offense is anemic, Ben is a shell of himself, and while allowing 15 points against good teams might be considered a success - it really felt like whatever we did on offense yesterday, Pit would have found a way to score more points on our D. And that's without a Kicker who could have certainly kicked at least a couple FG's if he had been healthy.

Stefanski's offense is sometimes excellent. We seemingly always have a first drive that looks like we are going to stomp the other team and then it goes sideways . . . . it appears to me to be one dimensional plan that once the other team makes adjustments - we simply struggle. Now ... we are certainly hamstrung with injuries and have real WR woes right now. But I don't think it's just the injuries. I see other teams doing more with less and finding ways to adjust to adversity ... we seem to shrink and go into a predictable pattern when facing adversity. And when either tackle or starting OG goes down, it seems like we completely abandon what the gameplan might be ... I still think KS is the right man for the job, I just think he gets into much too predictable a pattern and everything is too same-ish. . . . If part of that is an injured Baker - If an injured Baker is still better than a healthy Case - we still need to let Baker heal for the long term good.

I do think that mixing things up for a half - with play calls by AVP would help mix things up and prevent the practicability. If he did it for a game and KS could see areas for him to change or improve, i'd be all for that too.

As for the OP comment that Baker doesn't do anything good? Well I agree with the many posters who have highlighted the loss to Pit has little to do with Baker, he had a couple slightly off throws, we had receivers (hurt) drop balls they shouldn't have. And while I wasn't at the game this week - the comments about OBJ getting open [1] when I was at the game, he was getting open by free lancing after the route was covered. Not within the structure of the play design [2] When he has been thrown the ball and it's hit his hands, he has dropped the ball A LOT ... wonder what his PFF grade is for the season?

Bottom line - any QB in the NFL from Brady to Rodgers to Allen and Lamar ... playing with a broken bone and torn labrum is going to be struggling in all aspects of their game. Labeling Baker 'average' while playing with this injury seems more like contrived commentary than serious take.

Yes - I guess I have not been paying attention enough to the penalties. We are close to the lead in penalty yards in the entire NFL .... that is coaching and that is BAD.

I agree w/our offense. It’s so weird that we can look like the first drive against Denver .. and then it just disappears for long stretches.

I don’t get why we get away from the heavy PA game against base defenses until it’s too late. That seems to be our bread and butter.

At some point. questions have to be answered about this staff...all the way up to Berry. The more this season goes on, I'm not sure outside of Callahan we have the coaching that matches our "talent" same thing for years, square pegs into round holes. Usually if you have bad coaching teams will regress year to year as other teams get better that have better coaching.. We are seeing that right now. Stefanski at minimum should not call plays anymore. I would start there, its a small change that might spark the offense.

I was wrong to say Baker is average. He's below average. The stats and eye test all back it up. There will be a ton of all 22 that comes out this week showing no ability to see the field or deliver tbe ball on time.

You guys act like I like saying this stuff or it brings me some perverse joy. I don't. I'd be over the moon if the Browns and Baker were great. I'm the opposite now. Very melancholy.

I'm commenting on what I see and think, particularly relative to other teams. What I see is a QB with a great arm and not much else. No dynamicness to his game. No ability to raise the play of his teammates. No making plays when the team needs them the most.

I thought Baker played decent yesterday and is not solely responsible for the loss. But the "superbowl bound" Browns are 4-4 and my commentary is intended to cover the entire season to date.

If I'm missing something and Baker is dynamic, raises the play of his teammates, and makes plays when the team needs them the most, I'm all ears and willing to listen. Point them out to me.

no doubt I tend to lean your way as well. I actually thought Baker was good-ish yesterday and lay way more blame on the WRs … but I still don’t have confidence that he can raise the level around him.

Heck, I watched Cooper Rush last night … who’s in a VERY similar situation to Baker (great RBs, TE, OL, etc) and he went in and did the exact same thing Baker did in Minnesota.

To be fair, I didn't see Stefanski drop a couple of passes down close to the goal line and I didn't see Stefanski fumble any balls.. So I guess there's that!

I still have to watch the game. Will prolly do that either late tonight or tomorrow, but I listened to the radio call live. We lost a slapfight to the Steelers. Still a lot of season left, but not sure how anyone can conjure much confidence about our chances coming out of this game. Conklin got hurt again, which sucks. Did Wills play?

The radio call described a VERY well organized disappointment from the O. Steelers were obviously keying on Chubb, and the passing game just couldn't get its head out of its butt. More dropped passes from our most highly-paid catchers. When Baker wasn't throwing high, the ball was clanging off hands. For me, Landry has built up a resume here where I'm confident he's gonna address and sort out whatever it was that happened yesterday. Hooper and OBJ, not so much. Hooper is SO sickeningly average. The OBJ issue is what it is. He might be getting over on the DB from time to time, but I don't buy the "he's running open all over the place... Boo Baker" narrative. I don't know what OBJ's issue is, but if he/we haven't ironed it out by now, I think it's best to just figure out a smaller role for him and allow DPJ to really eat into his snaps. IMO, Hooper and OBJ need to be moved to make room for the guys behind them (I've kinda done a 180 on Njoku... dude has been playing well despite such a small role... radio guys are screaming when Baker chucks the ball on 3rd and long when Njoku is sitting open).

add: we squandered a rare overall positive performance from the D... though they also chipped in with a couple brutal momentum killers.

Not sure why you say that, was at the game and the fans did a great job ! unfortunately after time it started to have the same feeling as in the past. I give a shout out to the fans !

I noticed no energy from the Offense or Defense, Can't place it on the fact that injured players struggling with pain and it's hard to get fired up from the pain or was it that the coaching staff did not have the team fired up against a rival opponent. Hopefully some healing will help step up the energy level.

The browns defense is 3rd in yards allowed. 13th in points allowed, 3rd against the run, 7th against the pass.

Anybody whining about the defense needs to stop. Woods and the defense have done their part. This is all on the Offense.

Does anyone know why D'Ernest Johnson didn't play? That's embarrassing and a trait of someone who has NO clue how to run an offense.

He got some snaps. Oddly enough, was the only guy on O who scored a TD. Chubb showed up. But I was upset that Felton seemed to get more snaps than Johnson. And I’m not sure why.

Things don't seem to add up do they Swish. Those D #'s are an example. We pushed KC around for most of the game but lost. We outgained the Chargers especially on the ground but lost. Yesterday was a game that felt like we should have won but again lost. The only game we got beat outright was the Arizona game and that was probably because of the injuries. Something just isn't right with this team and I really don't know what. We have a rushing attack with RB's and an O- line that is the envy of the league but it's not translating into wins like it should. What's wrong?

Exactly. Anybody who watches this game knows baker wasn’t the reason we lost yesterday. But the entire passing attack is out of sync. The one consistency we have despite injuries has been the run game. But for whatever reason our coach goes long spurts with baker mayfield in empty sets with no threat of PA.

The best guess is that Stefanski has been wildly inconsistent with his play calling this year. No unit can establish any sort of rhythm. Our best playmakers go long stretches without touching the ball.

This game? If our defense didn’t hold them to 15 points, it would’ve been a blowout, cause we did next to nothing on O.

Based on what I was hearing from the radio call, I think Johnson was spelling Chubb. I think they were easing him back and using Johnson to limit his snap count. Just my guess, though.

Felton, I would imagine, is kind of a different beast. My guess is they have plays that look to use his potential versatility. He looked good early on in the season, so I don't really see the point in ragging on him in a game where the whole offense really couldn't get its feet under itself.

The one thing I can say about Felton is that I've seen just about enough of him on returns. WAAAAAAY too much dancing, side-to-side, and even backwards on these returns. If the dude can't catch it and head forward, we have others that will.

KS didn't all of a sudden forget how to call plays. Things seemed to be OK before these injuries. Maybe that's it. Maybe there is no downfield passing attack because KS is afraid that Baker will get hit and be out for the year. The Pats beat the Chargers yesterday and really had no business winning at their place. I feel we should have won in LA too but we didn't because our guys were in and out of the lineup getting hurt. We ran for over 200 yards that game and won the TOP by 13 minutes not to mention we didn't turn the ball over. I don't get it. Frustrating

I dunno I just think Johnson earned more playing time over Felton. And yea Felton on punt returns is a disaster.

But I believe Johnson should be getting atleast 3/4 of the touches Kareem got.

To be fair to the O, you could tell from the jump that guys were laggy because they were clearly playing injured.

That being said, if you’re gonna be out there, be out there. Cause if injuries are that big of a problem, they shouldn’t be playing cause it only hurts our team.

And that’s why I don’t blame baker for this game. He had PLENTY of zip on the ball yesterday. And having bad knees like Jarvis isn’t an excuse for his hands disappearing.

But having clearly injured players running routes is on the HC, is it not? That lack of discipline that has us leading the league in penalty yards is on the HC, is it not?

We need to get more aggressive with our passing attack. We can still be run first but when we pass do what we were doing last year and against KC as long as Baker can do so with his shoulder. I guess that is the ? and maybe the problem.

The injuries have to be the problem. Our guys didn't suddenly forget how to play or get too old to play. I know if I went to work sick or hurt I couldn't do as much as I normally could. It's worse trying to play football and I'm sure KS and the players don't want to use it as an excuse. I'm frustrated like every other Browns fan but I can't help but think that If we can get somewhat healthy and sneak into the playoffs we can make some noise.

I saw in Twitter-land something that I really agreed with. Basically they were like, 'alright... the docs are fine with him playing, coach is fine with him playing, he is fine with him playing... Case is just coming off a win with as little prep as you can get... so I don't want to hear any excuses for Baker that involve his injury'. I 100% buy that line of thinking.

Baker's overall performance yesterday isn't going to change anyone's opinion of him (good or bad).

Well he did play pretty good and his stats would have been better without the drops. He would even have had a TD pass.

I’m tired of the orbital motion from Felton. That ship has sailed.

Yep - this motion with Felton feels like it's the replacement for what was the arbitrary OBJ run/sweep that got used in a bunch of games to get OBJ the ball.

I get that if you show the same thing over and over and add wrinkles - you can confuse your opponent etc ... but neither play really has done much for us. It's a bit like the empty backfield sets that may have got us some first downs here or there - but overall I'd say underwhelming.

I beleive the Browns lost this game in 3 short yardage plays.

#1 - Browns leading 3-0 driving again with momentum just past mid field and went for a 4th and 1 and the Steelers stuffed Chubb for a loss and then drove and tied the game at 3.

#2 - Trailing 10-3 and momentum with the Browns the Steelers just short of mid field had a 4th and 1 and a with a second effort surge Najee Harris got the 1st down and the Steelers went on for TD and made the game 10-9

#3 - With the score 10-9 Browns after getting a couple 1st downs the Browns had a 4th and 1 at mid field. Then attempted to draw the Steelers off sides and when they could not get the Steelers to jump they punted. This game was won and lost in the trenches. The Steelers won the Line of scrimmage battle and won the game.

Was it injuries? Was it effort? Did the Steelers want this game more? Bottom line was they mad ethe plays and the Browns did not!

Delton is 2nd in the NFL in punt return yards. He is much lower in PR average, but a lot of the guys ahead of him have single digit returns, some having only 1 or 2.

I hope he learns to get the punt wrapped up a bit better, as he has muffed a couple.

Last year, for the whole season, we had 115 PR yards. We were 28th in PR yards, and 30th in PR average. Felton already has almost double that so far this year. We, as a team, are 2nd in the NFL in PR yardage.

I do think that Felton needs to learn to fair catch the ones where he is about to get crushed, though.

As far as the game yesterday, the defense did its job. The offense did not. I do not understand why Ski didn't use Johnson more. Chubb didn't look like himself, especially late.

I am really ... ticked off ... at all the stupid penalties. We are near the top of the league in penalties. I am also ticked off at the general malpractice on offense. Missed passes, dropped passes, general appearance of a lack of preparation and discipline. I think this ticks me off the most. That and what certainly appears to be poor game planning.

There's still time to get this straightened out, but time is fast running out. We are in last place. That ought to set off a ton of alarm belles in Berea.

Pittsburgh is not a very good team , and neither are we evidently.

j/c...



All offense grades for the game yesterday:

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...o-was-elite-average-and-replaceable.html

A bright spot!

So Baker is the problem. Clearly.

What was OBJ grade out of interest ... I cannot see.

Guys. I’m going hard on Stefanski but let me be clear like I said yesterday: the doom and gloom gotta stop.

The AFC is wiiiiide open. Everybody has flaws, and there’s plenty of time to right the ship and go on a 2nd half run.

We’re talking about all the injuries, well the Titans just lost what’s possibly the biggest injury in the Afc: Derrick Henry.

We have time AND a whole bye week soon. And I dunno bout the rest of you but I’ll take a low seed wild card spot. Cause back to back playoff appearances is far more important. Once the playoffs begin, anything can happen.

OBJ: 52.0

Landry: 52.3

Current playoff predictions through week 8 (NYG/KC still to play):

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2021-nfl-predictions/

I agree with all this - but I also understand the disappointment and what feels like regression compared to last year. I do think injuries are probably the single biggest issue and players playing through injuries that are having a serious impact. Despite the numbers I'm sticking with the optics and say the D is concerning ... next week vs Burrows and a dynamic set of receivers might be a real litmus test, to me keeping Cinci to under 24 would be a victory on D.

But 4 more games before the bye week and back to back weeks vs the Ravens. Hopefully those games are meaningful and will be part of what defines the season.

First, anyone blaming a D that gave up 15 points or the DC that coached them yesterday must be some kind of moron. When you give up 15 point there's no way you should lose that game. Period.

Secondly, I watched the throws the team decided to release this week of Baker throwing the ball at practice. One was an intermediate pass. All the rest were Case Keenum throws. The same short throws we see Case make all the time. Baker's injury does not allow for anyone to call deep ball passes. That's the way it is and that's how it will remain until that shoulder has time to heal. You can blame Stefanski for that all you like but that won't change the reality of the situation and it's been that way since Baker became injured. As of now Baker and Case are the same QB. This will be the situation we face every week for the rest of the season. No matter which QB we start we are limited to the passes they can make. Our opponents know this. Take your frustrations any way you like on whoever you like if you can't comprehend this. It seems as though most of you are and probably will moving forward.

We've been hearing this same tired line for years now....

I do hear what you're saying. But what can you hang your hat on from that last game when talking about the rest of the season?

That our defense is playoff caliber. We have a top 5 defense and a super talented O that needs to get their heads and bodies right.

Uh...no...just...no.

Baker with his left arm tied to his chest protector has twice the arm that Keenum possesses.

Basically you tell Stefanski that he WILL turn over play calling to AVP or he's gone. At that point, I think he leaves (due to his massive ego) but if that's what it takes then so be it. AVP and Baker working together might be better overall (even though I still don't see Baker as the guy who will LEAD the team to a title).

There is not one thing special about our defense...I don't care what the stats show. Some players? Sure. The defense? No.

We do not have a super talented O. Not even close. Maybe we could without the injuries...but we still do not have ONE special pass-catching weapon. Our best WR lost the game for us yesterday...maybe even twice. Our super-talented WR made a business decision at the goal line...which probably saved Woods' butt from giving up a game-winning TD anyway.

We don't do anything well except run the ball...and we are too banged up to do that. Our kicker is quite good. That's about it...right now anyway.

Baker is not playing well, he has not been since the start of the season. He is injured, and it shows. His balls are all over the place, its not just the deep balls, he is not throwing well and he is very limited and other teams know this.

Baker is playing and I suspect its not Stefansky decision...

When you don´t respect the game and do not play your 2 best players from the last game to their full extent, this kind of stuff happens.

Yet for the most part they're making the exact same throws. Let's not pretend that's the way it was before his injury. It certainly wasn't an air raid offense. And we certainly weren't attempting a lot of deep balls. But there's not a lot of difference in what they're doing now. Baker certainly has twice the arm. But with the injury he lacks the ability to use it.

I remember (1) poorly thrown ball yesterday. I remember (5) easy drops and one business decision that the "star" receivers in the league make all day on Sunday.

Baker had (11) incompletions yesterday and I just described (7) of them.

He's injured...he's limited...he still brought us back TWICE at the end...only to have other star players drop the ball.

I agree with much of what you said. But Baker made throws yesterday that Keenum couldn't make unless they were 10 yards shorter. We have the same basic problem that we had last year - a lack of dynamic pass-catchers. Last year, we could overcome the injury bug...this year we can't...so far anyway.

I'm afraid others are putting eggs in the DPJ basket. He's getting better...but he doesn't really get open either. He's big and will fight for the ball...and will actually catch the ball. So that's an improvement. But he alone won't move the needle.

I agree with this. We were in position to win. Drops and a fumble killed us.

Delpit was a top 5 player for us yesterday? Not a good sign

I don't think it's actually the pass catchers in a bubble that's the problem. I think working as a cohesive unit and team chemistry is as important as anything. I mean unless you think that Landry and Higgins just suddenly forgot how to catch the ball. Now if you're speaking about taking the top off of a defense then there's a point I think you could easily debate. But when you have sure handed WR's that just suddenly don't seem that sure handed anymore, there's something deeper going on IMO.

Suffice it to say I don't agree with you.

Defense go the job done yesterday (ie only let up 15 points), but I think to call that 'playoff caliber' is a MASSIVE overstatement. When Pitt needed drives they went through our D like a hot knife through butter. This D rarely takes the ball away and gives up big chunk plays when the other team needs it most. Other times they're just not covering people.

Given the talent we have, we absolutely SHOULD be a playoff-caliber D (and O).

Blame game Monday.

Players have to make plays that are there to be made.

First drive was beautiful till Hooper misses a catchable ball. Result field goal instead of a TD.

Jarvis had a bad day. He knows it. Normally he makes those catches and does not fumble.
Result was points not made in a 5 point loss.

Defense held a team to 15 points. A team should win when you do that.

Turnovers. We had one that cost us big time. The Steelers had none.

Drops. We had to many at least 5. Catch the damn ball.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Defensive scheme. Sometimes I do not understand what we are doing.

On second down and ten we were playing press man on the outside. OK.
Third and 6 we are playing off man on the outside. We got beat easy for a first down.

Red zone near the ten. Pre-snap wide four man front. Huge A gaps.
Both Walker and Smith post snap move to the B and C gaps and are out of the play. Runner hits the A gap for a easy score?????

On defense both 3 and 4th down way to many times; we can not get off the field.

On offense in the same situations we are not converting.

This is not from just yesterday. It has become a pattern.

When Conklin went down. Hance had no chance against Watt. KS adjusted and loaded double TE on the right side.

We ran plays to that side and used Watt's rush against him.

If we play a clean game. We would have won. We didn't and lost.

It is not the fault of Baker. It is not the fault of KS. The players failed to make the plays that were there to be made.
That is all it takes to lose a close game when the other team does not make mistakes.
=========================================================================

It is not the time to panic. But of course on the Board classic over reactions.
Fire KS. AVP should call the plays. Woods has to go. And the go to "It's Baker's fault. "

There are many on here that are certainly entitled to their "opinion." But honestly have no clue what they are talking about.

If someone in this thread, is allowed to say "the fans sucked" ...

Then the local Newspaper Reporters making excuses for this team all year ALSO sucked.

Just watched Trent Dilfer on Colin Cowherd. They both agree our O is broken. However, Trent said he'd like to see everyone back and playing to correct the problems. He said a QB expected to have all the guys playing and when they don't that's where the problems start. He said we have the good running game use that and then throw the ball downfield it's not rocket science. He added the short passing game does not work with the dominant run game we have. Just his opinion for what it's worth.

If only our QB's arm wasn't being held on by a piece of fabric.

Again, as I alluded to earlier, our injuries are the biggest problem. We're limited to what we can do and teams know this.

Specifically Baker's injury.

Exactly.

Great posts by WSU Willie, Day of the Dawg and swish, you guys nailed it. The knee jerk reaction to attack Baker and Ski are mostly wrong

In retrospect we lost the game because at almost every critical juncture we failed.

1. The oline could not get push on critical 4th down plays.

2. Receivers, mostly Landry dropped critical 3rd and 4th down passes.

3. Drop by Hooper cost a TD.

4. Drops by the RB did not cost us the game, but cost us getting in a rhythm offensively.

5. OBJ is so far from an elite receiver. An elite receiver goes up and makes the catch over the middle. The only great catches he can make is uncovered, pregame. DPJ get well soon and replace.

6. I know Chubb is beyond critique for most on the board, but he did nothing exceptional to break tackles and get critical 4th down conversions. Just saying. To much stutter stepping.

7. The defense played "good enough" to win, but against one of the worst offensive teams in the NFL, I would expect a "good defensive" team to get a turnover, or make a stop when it counts. This defense is only good when the other team has no passing threat, already sweating next week.

8. My biggest critique of ski is not at least throwing a couple deep passes in the game to stretch the field, catch or not, and not going for the second 4th and 1. Line and Chubb have to be able to get a yard when we need it.

9. Swish is right, we are not out of this. Look around the league, its not sunshine and flowers anywhere (see Tampa, New Orleans (Jameis out), Cinncy). Players are dropping like flies and teams are inconsistent. I have some amount of faith that the players on this team want to win too bad, and the coaches are smart enough to turn this around...its a long, long season.

10. Lastly, did anyone listen to the game on radio. Jim Donovan has a very thinly veiled disdain for Baker, he was calling many of the drops listed above as bad throws. Watching the tape, he is full of crap on of most of those. Especially the Hooper and Landry 4th down drops.

I'm trying my very best (but failing) to keep from posting until I re-watch the game for this very reason. He called out a lot of poorly thrown balls, but they also called out the drops. They said the throw to Hooper was high but that it hit him in the hands, he's gotta catch it. I do hear the excitement in his voice fizzle as Baker holds the ball.

Stats are for losers. Woods sucks.

Oober, I believe Jim said Baker missed him on the Hooper throw, Deacon immediately tempered with it was a little "high" but thought it was catchable.

On the fourth down and 12 throw. He flat out said Baker missed him, and gave no indication it was a drop. I was thinking Baker choked, and boy was I surprised when I watched the video below (6:45 mark), the pass was perfect! He even led him! Pathetic excuse for play by play!!

This is purely my opinion on the topic. I think all announcers should be able to put their fandom aside when they announce games. I mean in a perfect world that's the way it would be. But Jim Donovan is a life long Browns fan. His passion isn't any different than many fans on this board. As such his emotions enter into his announcing.

And while I understand what you're saying, it's that very passion and love for the Browns that attracts so many fans to Jim Donovan. We see the gut reactions by fans on this board every day. Especially in the game day thread which I don't even bother reading anymore. The reactions at the very moment something happen are often different than after we have time to process them.

But Jim Donovan has as much passion as any of us. As such sometimes that emotion crosses over to his announcing. I think the vast majority of Browns fans are willing to trade the crossover of his fandom into the announcing because they see Donovan as one of them. He's so relatable to the fan base. They love his fire and his passion. Just my two cents.

It's going to be rough when we lose to the Lions.

I agree with Dilfer...but someone should have asked..."Who is Baker going to throw it to?"

If we somehow scored a TD toward the end and got the 2 pt conversion for a 23-20 lead...does anyone who watched our D yesterday think that Pitt would not have scored a TD at the end to win it anyway?

Newsome got our D off the filed after Landry's fumble on an awesome individual play...maybe we should try and trust that a little better on 3rd down.

I don't disagree with you. And I love the emotion Donovan shows and he does the play by play great too (unlike the Steelers announcer, who does not even bother to give the play by play), just be accurate and call a drop a drop and a crap pass a crap pass.

Well the Browns are back down in the basement AGAIN. So much hype at the beginning of the season about us owning the AFC North and now look at us... LOOK AT US !!!!!! Once again this team disappoints me.

I just watched those replays on Undisputed about those dropped passes. We lost the game not because of Baker but because JL fumbled and couldn't catch those VERY catchable passes. OBJ looked like he held up for a split second on his pass at the 5. Even so, he got a hand on it and correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't he catch balls like that all the time in practice and pre game drills? Yes he does. It wasn't Baker. He brought us back down the field 3 times. It was his 2 WR's that cost us this game. JMO

I thought the ball to Hooper was high until they showed the ground level view. I think if it wasn't Heyward bats it down. Let me know what you think when yo rewatch it.

Thanks for that post, Milk

I didn't get to watch the game due to dish and tegna still fighting.

But geez.............that ball, the one to Beckham down the middle, and the 2 to Jarvis..........crap, the 1 to Jarvis hit his shoulder pad after it went through his hands...

A 'high' pass? Hooper 'leapt' about 8-10 inches for it. Hit him in the hands. A 'high' pass is one, on a crossing route in the endzone, where the ball was at the level of the crossbar. (Happened to me. Should've caught it. Ticks me off I didn't.) THAT is a high pass, and a high schooler at the time, is still upset about it.

I was at the game. baker wasn't the problem, though I would have sat him.

The receivers dropped some critical passes, we couldn't get off the field on 3rd down often enough, and something is going on with the O.

This isn't looking good.

That, sir, is a huge understatement....

22 years in the making lol

I think this offense misses Hubbard more than most realize. If nothing else, if Conklin goes out, Hubs came in and there was a drop-off, but not one that would kill us. The drop to Hance or whomever else we put out there is significant.
The compounded effect is that in situations where we run 6 OL and that 6th man was Hubbard, is now... who? The guy behind Hance?

Watt is a beast, anyway, but he had a field day blowing up our right side. They all did.
Also, I wonder about how much Romo might be right in us tipping our hand with our alignment. ... you have a better than average chance of know if we're running or passing simply by whether Baker is in shotgun or under center.


Berry needs to work some magic and bring in an upgrade at Swing Tackle before the deadline passes.
At the end of last season, I saw the TV putting up all sorts of things about teams breaking Playoff Droughts, and the one that stuck in my craw and I scoffed at was that like 95% of those teams miss the playoffs the following year. I thought there was NO WAY we would be among them; we're definitely in the 5%.
We are not. Not with this offense operating the way it is and not with a defense that still makes it routine to give up 11 on 3rd and 10.


Our WRs are a major disappointment, and I don't say this next bit lightly - unless they pull their heads out of their collective butts and start doing their job, I would trade them straight up for the WRs on ANY other team provided the new guys will simply do their job. There's only two parts to the job: Block and Catch. That's it. If you can't do that, you should be a Cornerback. Hell, I'm a fan of pyrrhic victories... I'd keep them all and then run nothing but 3-TE sets so that they get diddly when they finally get to the open market.

You bring up some great points.

Another question I have is why ever run an empty set? Especially with a QB with a bum shoulder, to me its a whistle to the D-linemen to rush like hell. No run threat even from the QB. If you need one more guy on the route, send out the RB.

Over 50 years for me.

Makes no sense, but down and distance might make a difference.

Going empty, especially with a running back in the field, reveals the coverage of the defense. That means if your man wins you should be able to get an east completion.

Thanks. That's something I never thought of.

I mean, I get why they use motion to help determine the coverage, etc. But, I never looked at it the way you described going empty.

I still don't like it though, with an injured qb.

If the QB gets rid of the ball on time there should be no issue.

I didn't study the past 2 games but did Chase get rid of the ball quicker and hold onto the ball less than Baker did? It seemed to me that Chase was more decisive and saw the field better? If Baker's left arm is hanging on by a thread, why is he playing? If he is playing then the injury can't be used as an excuse or else let Chase play.

Regarding our Defense, are we not in at the bottom of the league statistically in allowing 3rd and 4th down conversions? How many points have we given up to teams with a top rated Offense? The only team we were real aggressive with was the Bears and their rookie QB. That seems to work out well. We then go back to the soft Prevent seemingly for all other games.

I couldn't agree more. It's strange that he didnt get more playing time after his performance against Denver.

OBJ after Baker gets hit...

Baker double clutched and threw it late on this play. Roughing the passer called..








This sums it up...

How is that out of bounds hit on baker not a penalty?

The same way their kicker being murdered is not a penalty. Refs suck.

Can't remember who hit that punter, but won't be surprised if they are fined this week.

j/c...

Less Hooper. More Chief.

These 'stats' things are getting out of control, really. 1st in yards per route run? It's like baseball, they have so many stats it's unbelievable. Too many sit around and research stuff that doesn't matter. And has no meaning.

Wins above replacement ring a bell? Best at bat against a leftie at an away game with the count 0-2? Gosh, the list goes on and on. What it tells me is people have too much time on their hands. JMO

Or that people really love something and they want to dig into it and understand it more. Or it’s their job. Can’t be those. Definitely too much time on their hands says the message board poster with nearly 30000 posts.

This is for various reasons to spread out the defense, it is harder for the D to disguise their defense.

The alerting the DL to rush like hell, is not correct. The reason being is most empty sets are designed short yardage passes.


Instead of me talking about it, heres a better explanation

Reasons for empty sets

One thing I want to bring up from past stats.....see the difference in teams blitzing in empty compared to other sets?

And Baker to put it kindly hasn't been great in blitz situations.

I do have some further wonders and questions attached to this and Baker/Ski, but i'll leave it at this.

So, stats like wor mean something? That takes into account NOTHING other than when X plays over Y, wins are this.

Seriously? yards per route run means something? What? It means nothing. Like, this back ran a 4.4, that back ran a 4.6, plus, the first back only benched 225 12 times, but the faster guy only benched 225 10 times.

Those types of stats, legit, mean nothing. On 3rd and 3, this back got 2 yards, and that back got 3. Who cares? If looking at stupid stats means something to you, you must be a fantasy league guy.

Baseball - on 3-2 count, the pitcher throws a slider.....................big deal. On a 3-2 count, the batter hits a foul ball. Man, the stat people go way overboard.

At a home game,with over 10,000 in attendance, If batter A gets to bat with a runner in scoring position, 13% of the time he gets on base. But 59% of the time, he doesn't.

What?

Use the eye test. I don't care what your 40 says - how many times did you get caught from behind? Oh, you can bench 450? Cool. Why did the guy that couldn't bench 325 blow the hell out of you? it goes on and on. I know the stat guys have to do something to attempt to earn their money. Or act like it.

Stats like that are for nerds that never played, but get paid.

I'm more of a real life dude: Can you do it? I don't go in for stats like on 3rd and 3, this team has made a first 40% of the time running to the left, but 50% of the time running right.

It’s okay to not understand things.

I'm glad you are aware of that.

“ Use the eye test. “

You’ve been reading the post game thread. I would say this thread is based on the “eye test”.

…after reading this far, you would think everyone’s eye test thoughts would be pretty similar.

Why aren’t they?

I don't know what your point is. I will say this, in a post game thread after a loss, it is always and constantly a blame blame blame thread. I get tired of it.

There it is, in a nutshell.
This one had me LMAO.

Nicely played.


I'm no hater of 'analytics' in any way, but s# has become ridiculous, imho. AND- I love any chance to laugh at Amateur Armchair Statboys any chance I get... the same way folks poke at me when I geek out on high-end stereo, 70's ProgRock, or English Sports Cars.


Best chuckle of the night.


*EDIT*
My post sat (as a draft) for an hour+ while I caught up with the NY/KC game. When it was time to share, I took a quick peek at it before hitting the 'submit' button. At that moment, I had no idea that I was dropping into an active 'hot spot.'

I'm outta this.
Y'all have fun amongst yourselves.

My point was stats are valuable for many reasons….edit* I do want to add that some stats can be useless

And what I am saying as a generalization ( not directed at you) is most people’s eye ball test is full of malarkey.

Also agree with u about the blame thing

Yes, I’m posting a lot tonight…sorry.

OCD just reminded me of a post. We are 4-4. I said before the season started that 18 of the last 20 years whoever had the best division record in the AFC North won the division and went to the playoffs.

So while we are last in division, we are still 4-4 with only one division game (0-1) played. Still plenty of meaningful football left. We are just on high alert now to win these division games.

First of all it's WAR, wins ABOVE replacement, and if you think they "mean nothing" go check the correlation between team wins, player salaries and WAR. Or how closely their predictions deviate from expected outcomes. Or, you know, read a basic book on statistics and stochastic processes to figure out any odds more complicated than a coin flip.

Wait, never mind, correlation, expected values, stochastic processes.....those are terms for nerds (they might even be made up!). Don't need nuttin but addition and subtraction on ma fingers.

After all, those scientists, engineers and physicists never were worth much anyway. They haven't had to figure out deeper meaning or reasoning behind things in order to more accurately predict future outcomes in their advantage. Nope. And applying that concept to sports to find hidden values to extract and find minute ways to gain advantages over opponents is probably pretty dumb too.

Shoot, look at that Isaac Newton fella. Dude just needed a noggin, his eyeballs and an apple to figure out gravity. Pssh - statistics. Stats are for losers.


I know right?! The human eye has the ability to see all, and the human brain has the ability to perceive everything perfectly clearly, without biases or limitations, every time always. Same goes for that feeling I get in my gut. Or it could be heartburn.

P.S. There's a reason people who think like this are QUICKLY going the way of the dodo bird in front offices and coaching staffs in the NFL. Everybody thought Bill James and Billy Beane were buffoons and "nerds" before they weren't and every organization in MLB decided to literally adopt and mimic their processes too.

Hey - honestly - stats can lie too. Even advanced stats. But they're a helluva lot better than "use the eye test". You still need a heavy dose of expertise on the sport and understanding of how to interpret the stats along with some good old common sense. But, no, stats definitely DO "mean something".

The bad OL grades are a story not many are talking about from Sunday. The Steelers DL had their way with our OL most of the day.

When Conklin went out it got bad.

Hance had no chance against Watt.

We need a better tackle backup

We desperately miss Hubbard IMO

They say 70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of people that produce false statistics 54% of the time they produce them. At least that's how the old joke goes. But seriously, I do think that sometimes when I read these PFF grades here because their grades for some players make me think "WTF were they watching?". And then I wonder if there are other sites that fact-check PFF.

Hubbard by himself would have faired much better ,

twitter.com/EdGreenberger/status/1454919197029449731

Be interested to hear from those that say Baker was not good enough to win the game.

Hubbard is gone, and probably for good. He's a free agent this offseason, so it's a safe bet he isn't getting a new deal from us.
Alex Taylor, Blake Hance, and James Hudson are NOT on his level, nor are they ready, or capable, of being a legitimate fill in for him.

Conklin is now gone for several weeks, at best.


If Berry doesn't trade for whomever is at the top of Bill Callahan's Wish List, you can take that as a silent acknowledgement of the Front Office waving the white flag on this season.
You can't tell me that with the number of 1 or 2 win teams, none of them run a zone blocking scheme. Identify who you want and get on the phone and pry them away. It's worth a 3rd round pick, easily, to secure that right side.

The game was close. I think you could make the argument that everyone was good enough to win the game.

The issues with Baker run much deeper than this game. He has something wrong upstairs. He doesn't handle pressure well, on the field or off, imo. I think the weight of expectations, the weight of his future contract, and his being scared to make a mistake have led him to where he is now.

Or it could be as simple as he just doesn't understand where to go with the ball after the snap. Maybe he just doesn't get it. OBJ is open so many times during every game. Why he doesn't take those throws is a mystery that is baffling.

I don't think the Browns win another game this season. They don't believe or trust each other or their coach. Body language is awful.

This season could not have gone any worse.

IMO, the stats support what's being seen on the field. Fluky though they might be, they support a (correct) narrative.

If OBJ is running open all over the field, why isn't he getting higher PFF ratings? Beating his man is taken into account in those ratings, right?

Yes, we control our destiny. That frightens me.

"The PFF grading system isolates the targeted receiver’s role on every pass attempt. Credit is given for plays in which the receiver adds value to the offense, especially when it’s above and beyond what was called for schematically."

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-how-pff-grades-receiving

"Receivers who consistently beat man and zone coverage, win contested catches or create yards after the catch will grade well in the PFF system. Receivers who fail to separate, fail to catch the ball consistently or fail to create after the catch will grade poorly."

This tells me if OBJ was consistently beating his coverage he would be graded higher. I'm not saying these ratings are the be-all-end-all, but the narrative of OBJ doing his part and Baker not would make more sense if there was something concrete behind it.

I agree. Now we're to the point of MMQBs dissecting every play to say "see -- look, O'dell open again!" I'd imagine you could do that with every WR.

Meanwhile, Baker hits him with a near-perfect pass inside the 5 yard line and OBJ goes up with one hand as if the other arm is handcuffed to his belt buckle. 2:52 left in the 4th, would have been a 39 yard TD. There is a time and a place for those antics (not really), trying to come from behind late in the 4th is not one of those times. Tired of watching that.

I would not describe that pass as “near perfect”.

But would you describe it as catchable?

... catchable for a guy that has made his name on making tough catches?

I definitely think OBJ held up to not get crushed.

To put it in the words of Norm Macdonald

“He’d love to go and we’d love to have us see him go”

Yeah, well... good enough to go up with both hands and make a game-changing catch.

Meanwhile, injured QB staring directly into the sun with Highsmith coming from one side and Watt from the other -- about to Bake themselves a sandwich.

Total fail by a "game-changing" WR who all but refuses to make a catch unless it will show up on SportsCenter.

We can all nitpick about this play or that, there is no chemistry between these two... and frankly, I've seen nothing all season to indicate that Baker should "trust" OBJ.

Peyton Manning talked about trusting your receivers a lot last night on the Manningcast. He was saying that Tyreek Hill has had a few key drops this season and that Mahomes shouldn’t shy away from him because of that and should probably try to get him the ball more to show he is confident in him.

Baker should trust OBJ because he is a player on the field that is trying to help the team win. Whether he is physically capable of getting him the ball on time is the bigger question.

Bottomline. Get the ball to open receivers on time and you will do well.

60% of the time, it works every time.

I wasn't sure how to pull up the correct clip here....on the ball that looks to be a tad behind the receiver...the endzone view.

That is a perfect throw. Note the defender from the right as viewed. had bake led the receiver, he would have led him in to a tremendous hit.

You are a broken record of doom and gloom no matter what happens.

In fact I don't have an idea why you pay any attention to the Browns.

If all you see is negative why bother?

How is he missing the dude wide open in the center of the field 15 yards ahead of him? it’s just odd

j/c...

Lol.

It's not Linear! If Baker can't take a snap from center and hand off with his left hand he's hurting the offense.
IF Baker can't make the millon mile per hour fast ball into the tiny window up the middle that he's used before like vs the giants last year to get back to the one yard line, if he can't make that pass, (or won't because he's afraid of an interception, or won't because it hurts to torque his torso that much) then he's hurting the offense.

If no one can attempt passes down field on a regular basis that would hurt the offense.

Baker is not as able to do as much as Keenum could, last Sunday and probably won't be until, Next year at the earliest, Next September.

Keenum would be better than Baker in abilities, but maybe not interceptions and red zone decisions, It's not linear
Lauletta would be better than Keeenum, in arm strength, but not experience.
Lauletta would be better than injured Baker, but it's not injur.. I mean it's not Linear.

Baker Is limiting what they can do. His injury is too. There are only bad options, this is the best bad option available. And I mean Keenum, (cough, or maybe Lauletta) when I say that.

Rashard Higgins needs to be a bigger part of the offense. What are we doing out there.

In the Minnesota Win, Kareem Hunts determination saved K. Stefanski from bad decisions in playcalling, with that run late in the first half.

There has been a pattern of not scoring points in the 2nd half, going back to before the start of LAST year.
In 2020, they scored a lot in 2nd quarters.

The next game is about Turnovers, and Stupidity.

FWIW, I found the summary tweet from OBR FB to be spot on. Baker, overall, was meh. WRs let him and the team down. Others also played a role in the loss.

Ahhhh,,,just drop in, stir some stuff, then hold up your hands and bow out....lol...I tried to add a wink...just kidding my man

I believe their kicker was hit in bounds.

And straight in the face well after the three the ball.

Well if hitting the passer in the face was a penalty there were a few more flags that should have been thrown as well.

So what you’re saying is the refs sucks? If so, I agree.

Where is Eotabs " what I saw " thread
Does he only post it when the Browns win?
Or did he.sell.the rights to it , to Versatile Dawg or Overtoad?

I'm saying they missed some calls. I actually thought this was a better reffed game than most, they didn't make game changing calls at unbearable times.

Unless you are Pittsburgh and your kicker got murdered and you got nothing to show for it.

A real man would have shaken it off and flipped off the bench like Gardocki did to the steelers. That hit from Porter looked a lot worse.

How many times are you going to say this? lol Kicker standing there forever like he's "buying time". Yeah, he got rocked. This is the big boy league, he's out there patting the ball like he's playing all time QB for the neighborhood kids in his back yard.

Here's an idea: kick the FG if you don't want your panzy kicker seeing stars.

A lot of times.

1. I think it’s hilarious that Tomlin went for the fake and all the crazy stuff that happened afterward.
2. People on here complain about missed calls by the refs and that the league is against us etc. The refs blew a very obvious call that hurt our opponent greatly and no one seems to notice the hypocrisy. The refs aren’t for or against a team. They just suck.

Gotta love a post that mentions the phrase "all time quarterback"

That wasn't a blown or bad call, as I figure the punter dude still had the ball in his hands, and was in bounds, at the instant that Jordan Elliot hit him to knock him out of bounds. That is tackling a player holding the ball, and no foul should be called.
Now if my eyes missed something, and he threw the ball way before he got pummelled, then it's just the speed of the game.
Why would I care about any Pittsburgh player, I hope their franchise folds for mismanagement.

That clip of Andrew Billings is a comedy routine

Rewatching the clip it doesn't look like a bad hit. I think the kicker got more hurt when his head hit the ground.

He was hit the the field of play as he was releasing the ball, he was hit in the chest by the Elliot's hands and went flying to the boundary.

You can see it how you see it but I believe it was actually a good no call.

Dude. The Browns player hit him square in the face with the crown of his helmet.

I think you can see his helmet pushed up his face before he hits the ground.

Yikes.

Show us the tape from the completely opposite angle...the hit is NOT from the crown of the helmet...it's facemask to facemask...which is why they wear a...well...facemask.

This is ridiculous and I'm done.

I'm confused... are you saying that it's not helmet to helmet and caused a concussion because he hit with the wire facemask instead of helmet itself? Are you saying hit with/in the facemask aren't dangerous like with the helmet?

Re-watch the hit and look how his head hits the ground...it's nasty. I'm saying that IN THIS CASE the hit didn't cause the concussion...but the way his head hit the ground did. The other angle of the entire play also shows an even nastier take on how his head hit the ground.

Brown fans should be a lot more "concerned" about the hit on Baker where he was already out-of-bounds.

Penalty flags aren't (well, shouldn't) be thrown depending on if the guy was concussed on the hit or when he hit the ground. It's clearly helmet-to-helmet and should've been flagged. Another example of the refs missing a call.

Gotta disagree. In the 4th quarter the defense had only given up 15 points, we were down by 5, we had a good drive going that was stopped by a fumble, the defense forced a punt in 5 plays and only 1:42 run off the clock to get the ball back with 4:30 left on the clock and gave the offense yet another chance. That chance was squashed by dropped passes and jumping off-sides. That was the one defensive stand that mattered the most, they met the challenge and the offense let them down.

It's the reverse of the Chargers game where the offense played really well, we had a 14 point lead early in the 3rd and our defense gave up 35 points in a quarter and a half (5 TDs out of 6 possessions for the Chargers) 3 of the drives were less than 2 minutes... and people were mad that the offense couldn't just keep scoring on every possession.

It's like we get pretty good offense or pretty good defense, but we never get both in the same game.

The first thing to hit was Elliots hands into the punters chest, any later head touching between them was incidental.
Elliott barged towards him, and took his hands and bench pressed him out of bounds, which is not flagable, if he's still holding the ball and a runner, in the field of play. The fact the punter landed badly out of bounds, was unfortunate, but I think Elliot avoided hitting him head first, like Elliot is supposed to, therefore It's not something that should be flagged.

It's pretty wrong of the steelers to put a player in that position, holding the ball and doing nothing with it and waiting to get hit, like he did.
Hands first, driven into his chest, which bench pressed him out of bounds, and apparently he landed terribly.

I wasn't debating whether there was a penalty - until now anyway. I was commenting that the hit was far less devastating to the Kicker than was the ground.

That said, Sean Holculi (Ref) said post-game his crew did not see a flag-able offense on the hit. Not that what a ref says about his call means a whole lot. I did not think it was a flag-able hit, but I am certainly biased. Especially when we play the league-best at cheap shots. Others may think it was a flag-able hit.

THROW made a great point above (somehow) that Elliot shoved the guy first and before facemask contact...and I'll add that that shove was good for about about 6 yards in the air. That wasn't from their facemasks colliding.

We lost a great chance at going to the AFC Championship last year on a much, much worse hit. It's a rule that is as poorly applied as is offensive holding.

I thought we were debating if a flag should've been thrown. I'm with you when you mention the cheap-shot deficit we have with the Steelers. IMO, we inched that mark a little closer to center with the hit in the video.

I'm a big proponent of NOT throwing flags just because someone got hit hard. In the video, I see his face out in front and made some sort of contact with the kicker's helmet. You can see after initial contact that the kicker's facemask was pushed up his face (like the hilarious Aaron Rodgers that's been making the rounds), which tells me that helmet2helmet contact was significant.

From the video it appears he had his head up and dipped it at the last possible second, which to me would indicate that it could have been a penalty. Just seeing it live, I was really surprised they didn't throw a flag because:

1. it's the Steelers
2. it's the kicker
3. it looked extremely violent

Usually that's more than enough.

I re-watched Q4 yesterday...because I love to punish myself.

When Baker was cheap-shotted by that turd Haden...Baker landed at the feet of Garrett and McDowell at the bench....neither one of those guys got off their butts to help and or hype. No one on the sideline got in Haden's face...as a matter of fact...one of our guys exchanged 'fives' with Haden.

We are still soft.

You could call it soft or you could call it no cohesion and a lack of teamwork and enthusiasm among the players. Maybe there's a possibility there are rifts within the team. I'm not trying to dismiss your thoughts on the topic just trying to show there are other possibilities. When a team is winning everyone is happy. When it looks like the wheels are starting to falling off things can go sideways quickly.