Ok so we don't have a first round pick...better get use to it cause we won't have one until 2025.
Our first pick will be at #44 I don't see why we can't have a discussion on who - yeah yeah its tough cause we don't know who will be gone.
But so what lots of guys to be available.
TE Trey McBride - I like this kid, real good hands and is a good blocker. Needs work on Zone blocking skills
WR Jahan Dotson - small which is why he will be available but I see him as a younger better version of Landry - kid can catch and score TDs will give his all for the team
DE Sam Williams - the perfect guy to go opposite of Garrett. Incredible speed I have him as the #7 DE in the draft he might just be there at 44.
DT DeMarvin Leal and I like the kid Travis Jones.
Safety Nick Cross
There is going to be a good talent available at #44 we have done well in the 2nd round I don't see why not now. Be realistic but who would be your favorites???
Go at it lets still have draft fun!
First we have to find out about free agents? IMO Berry will try to find a pass rusher off the edge.
Clowney is still on the table. If he signs somewhere else. Berry may try a trade or go after another FA DE. It will be a priority.
Jarvis may sign? If not Will Fuller has experience with DW. He will not be to costly because of recent injury history. He is still a burner and still young.
So, given the first round goes deep into pass rushers. My guess is interior DL.
If Devonte Wyatt gets past the first round. He could be a early second round target. If not and we stay at 44. I think Perrion Winfrey could be there.
i really like him. I think he is diverse and could play more than one technique. I see him as a 1 and 2 gap guy.
Depending on receivers signed. If George Pickens is there at 44. I don't think we should pass on him. He is IMO a first round talent.
I love Skyy Moore. I think he will be there. Love this guy. He could play slot but he has long speed as well. Love how he catches the ball.
He is short but really put together. He is hard nosed football player.
We could also look at interior OL. A guy who could play center/guard. At 44 we would be looking at top 3 players in that position group.
In the end Berry wants to be flexible. He wants options. So BPA is important.
I'd like either DT Travis Jones or WR George Pickens.
I do like McBride but don't see us taking a TE in the 2nd.
At Wr we should have a choice of Pickens, Bell, Talbot, Moore, Metchie and a few others. I doubt Dotson makes it to us, but I would love it if he dis.
At DT Winfrey, Hall, Neal could all be available.
At DE Williams, Ebiketie, and Enagbare could be available.
I have little doubt we will get a talented player at #44. The question is how complimentary the later rounds line up.
Sidney Jones fell to the 43rd pick after blowing out his achilles at a pro day.
At the moment the "dream," is getting Ojabo, then Logan Hall, then a receiver. If Watson works out, we're unlikely to have a shot at a high end edge in the draft for awhile. Of course, the dream also involves Ojabo coming back from injury like Terrell Suggs.
Watson to Watson doesn't sound bad if Ojabo's gone.
This would make me happy
44. David Bell WR PURDUE
78. Perrion Winfrey, DT Oklahoma
98 . Jeremy Ruckert OSU
This would make me happy
44. David Bell WR PURDUE
78. Perrion Winfrey, DT Oklahoma
98 . Jeremy Ruckert TE OSU
Hard to see Winfrey lasting to #78.
I guess it could happen.
Last year the unbelieveable happened we got JOK at pick 52. That was totally nuts to me.
I wonder if some other guy like that could drop to us?
Two guys that I am zeroing on are:
Perrion Winfrey and Logan Hall. Both of them should be there at 44.
They are different as players. Hall is longer at 6'6". He could move to DE. So where he would play and what technique is still to be determined.
Winfrey is more of inside guy but he can rush the passer from inside.
Both of them address a need.
It's all just a guess. You could throw darts at names and be correct.
We just have to wait and find out.
What is interesting. Is that most of the players we will end up with when this draft is over are guys we never heard of.
Then it will be about who are these guys?
Then going back and finding out.
1a. Pickens
1b. Bell
1c. Dotson
1d. Watson
1e. Moore
One of these WR’s will surely be available at #44 and I would be happy with any of them.
j/c,
Greedy Williams
Grant Delpit
JOK
All considered to be first round prospects at one point ... who's next?
1a. Pickens
1b. Bell
1c. Dotson
1d. Watson
1e. Moore
One of these WR’s will surely be available at #44 and I would be happy with any of them.
Would like to add:
1f. John Metchie III totally forgot about him
This would make me happy
44. David Bell WR PURDUE
David Bell is the antithesis of an Andrew Berry pick.
I think someone like Skyy Moore is much more likely.
I think someone like Skyy Moore is much more likely.
If the Browns go WR at #44, Skyy Moore would be my pick. I'm on the Travis Jones choo choo train if he's available.
Sign me up for Christian Watson if he falls. Seems to be shooting up the draft boards, but that could just be media hype.
This would make me happy
44. David Bell WR PURDUE
78. Perrion Winfrey, DT Oklahoma
98 . Jeremy Ruckert OSU
Would you still prefer David Bell if Johan Dotson (both wrs') were still on the board? Just asking, I reserve the right to have two different mindsets on the topic.
(" Wow a Boat!, Wait a second Lois, A boat is a Boat, but a mystery box could be ANYTHING, it could even be a boat!") Ben Solak
... What about if option 2
(b) required a trade up to #27 overall? ... ( A boat is just a boat, but a mystery box could be Anything!)
( I'm goin with option B, kickin your @*!! and collecting 500 dollars.) Cousin Vinny.
A receiver I like in the 3rd round is Romeo Doubs, Nevada. I think he can be a very good NFL receiver.
Just digging a little deeper in the draft since we are starting deeper.
a slow, unathletic WR from Purdue. lmao
My top 2 guys who could reasonably available at #44 are:
1, Arnold Ebiketie DE PSU
2, Perrion Winfrey DT Oklahoma
I really really like Jahan Dotson Wr PSU but I doubt he is available at #44. If he is than I probably take him.
My favorite player in the draft is Nakobe Dean Lb UGA. Again, I doubt he is available at #44. If he is available I don't know if we should take him. Mostly because I don't know how pairing him with JOK would work. Is that combination too small at Lb? I don't know enough to know if that would work.
Depending on who goes when, I could see Nik Bonitto being the pick @44. He has an athletic profile pretty similar to Takk McKinley. Maybe even closer to Haason Reddick or a mix of those two. He could be the fastball off the edge in sub packages. Maybe even stand up and move around the defense paired with JOK.
j/c,
DE Drake Jackson is another name to watch for the 44th selection.
He came into USC pro-day weighing 273 lbs, and was at 254 lbs for the Combine.
The weight loss was due to coaching, and a position change to LB, but he is a hand in the dirt DE.
I think the Browns are looking real closely to Wydermeyer TE Texas A&M - dont know why he is dropping speed maybe as he ran a 5.0 40 but we might be targeting him. I like McBride but both are good additions.
I'm pretty much out on the Texans A&M TE. He's slower than Hooper and not a good blocker.
He wouldn't seem to fit this FO's typical profile of plus athletes.
He has had some good moments, but he is somewhat like a 80's TE.
In todays game, he looks somewhat cloddish.
Would the Browns consider moving up to late first round?
My guess is - No.
However, there is one scenario that I believe is possible. That is if the Browns were to sign Clowney to a two or three year deal.
That would insure a bookend to Myles. Leaving the middle of the line in question.
Then "if" Jordan Davis were still there at say 27. That would be the Bucs pick.
We could offer Baker and our second (44) to move to 27 and select Jordan Davis.
He would be a cornerstone DL interior player. He is so athletic. He could man more than one gap. He could be used many ways. He would become the ultimate run stuffer.
Clowney is so good coming down the backside against the run. Damn our DL would be killer.
I would love for this to happen. Will it? I wish.
Possibly, but I think you might have Baker overvalued. But, by saying maybe being overvalued also opens up the possibility I have him undervalued. What matters is what some other team thinks.
What I do know is I would be all in on Jordon Davis. Hey, nothing wrong with dreaming. Everything of worth starts with a dream or idea.
It is about value to the Bucs.
Brady is old. He could get hurt. What happens next year? It would give the Bucs a starter to fall back on and have a guy in place next year.
At worst a bridge to a future pick. Baker was going to start for us. He is a starter and still young.
I want Davis. I would try something to get him.
I know analytics and the Browns do not place high investment value on interior DL. But Davis is an exception. He has dominant traits.
Just a thought. Like I said probably will not happen.
Another guy I would look to trade up to the bottom of the first is Jamerson Williams. I am looking for really good talent that may fall some because of how the first round could fall.
In the end we should get a impactful player at 44.
Sorry. I sometimes skim a bit and missed the Buc's part.
That might make it a bit more possible. Who knows? Draft day brings events totally predictable to beyond imagination.
I suppose that would fall somewhere in between.
And it would make sense for Baker to restructure his contract to play for the Bucs. Something like 2 yrs $25 million part as a signing bonus.
He sits behind Brady this year then is the de facto starter going into 2023 with a loaded Bucs offense.
The Browns roster after free agency should be close to set.
If we can come away from this draft with three good picks we are golden. The 7th rounders can be used on kickers.
This would be a good draft to go after value and use the draft to move for value if it presents itself.
Part of a larger article. Only posted what was relevant to this threadESPN's Todd McShay lists defensive tackles and ends who would make sense for Browns in second round
Right now, defensive line and wide receiver are still the Browns' most glaring needs, and ESPN's Todd McShay outlined some potential fits he believes could be available for Berry at No. 44.
McShay mentioned Houston's Logan Hall, Connecticut's Travis Jones and Alabama's Phidarian Mathis as options at defensive tackle.
“Logan Hall would be intriguing there,” McShay said Thursday during a conference call. “He's kind of a tweener five-technique who can play on the edge. You can play him at three-technique. He can provide some versatility.
NFL free agency is a factor in planning, too: Cleveland Browns have 'mutual interest' with Jadeveon Clowney, Jarvis Landry
“If you're looking for a pure defensive tackle, Travis Jones is a physical freak coming out of Connecticut. You just look at what he was able to do at the Senior Bowl and then combine that with the workout numbers that he had, I think he's got a chance to be a really good player.”
An edge rusher McShay singled out as a logical second-round target is Oklahoma's Nik Bonitto.
“You just need another guy on the opposite side [of Browns All-Pro defensive end Myles Garrett] to get pass-rush pressure,” McShay said. “I think Bonitto's going to come in with the explosive workout numbers he had and the unbelievable production he's had the last couple of years at Oklahoma, I think he's going to be at least as a rookie a designated pass rusher in sub packages, and I think he's going to put up some really good pressure numbers and sack numbers as a rookie.”
As for the receivers, McShay listed Western Michigan's Skyy Moore, North Dakota State's Christian Watson, Georgia's George Pickens and Alabama's John Metchie III as candidates to be picked 44th overall.
McShay raved about Moore and Christian Watson.
“[Moore] is silky smooth,” McShay said. “He's the kind of guy in a closet you'd have a hard time wrapping him up and bringing him down. He is so good in tight spaces. Tracks the deep ball well. He ran really well at the combine. I know he's a little bit undersized, but the way he plays he's so smooth. He's 5-9½, 195. He ran a 4.41 in his 40-yard dash. I think he's got a chance to be in that range around 44.”
“[Christian Watson] was like 6, 7 yards behind defensive backs on deep balls. It was like over and over again on tape. But I wondered leading up to the Senior Bowl how is he as a route runner. He just didn't have to [be a precise route runner in college] because he was running by guys at that level.
“[He faced Auburn's] Roger McCreary and some of those really top-end corners that are going to be second, third-round draft picks, and he was working them at the top of his stem and getting out of breaks. I like Christian Watson a lot. I think he's going to be in that range and would be a really good fit.”
https://news.yahoo.com/no-first-round-pick-cleveland-100055290.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall
And it would make sense for Baker to restructure his contract to play for the Bucs. Something like 2 yrs $25 million part as a signing bonus.
He sits behind Brady this year then is the de facto starter going into 2023 with a loaded Bucs offense.
No matter the numbers or years, he is going to have to do that no matter who might want him. Nobody is going to take him on a 18-19 mil expiring contract.
Those players are guys we have spoke of as possibles with #44.
One other in addition is Winfrey.
I'm pretty much out on the Texans A&M TE. He's slower than Hooper and not a good blocker.
He wouldn't seem to fit this FO's typical profile of plus athletes.
Jeremy Ruckert OSU 6'5.5 252 LBS
Ohio State tight end Jeremy Ruckert projects as a viable threat in an NFL passing game. Ruckert’s development as the primary tight end for the Buckeyes has spanned over several seasons—he’s been an enticing complementary piece of the puzzle but never someone who was asked to serve in a starring role as a pass-catcher. Ruckert’s best season in that regard comes in 2021 as the fifth option in the offense behind star receivers Chris Olave, Garrett Wilson, Jaxson Smith-Njigba, and running back TreVeyon Henderson. But when Ruckert does allocate targets, he’s efficient in hauling in passes and with the spacing challenges posed by Ohio State’s 11-personnel grouping, Ruckert is usually isolated in a one-on-one matchup. He’s been a killer in the red zone, too (all five of his 2020 scores came in the red area). In total, he hauled in 12 touchdown receptions in 51 career catches entering into his final contest, the 2022 Rose Bowl versus Utah. Many of those scores have come out of play-action, where Ruckert’s role as a blocker and his ability to climb to the second level on seal blocks can be well hidden and allow him to burst free on delayed releases out of stalk blocks and into the open. I think that Ruckert is a plus athlete for the position, or at least he plays like one. And with more freeing roles available to him in other offenses other than an OSU one that traditionally treats tight ends like afterthoughts, I think the ceiling is there for Ruckert to be a much better pro player than he is a college receiver. In the blocking phases of the position, Ruckert is used often in split-flow fits and has the mass necessary to crack the end man on the line of scrimmage effectively. That experience will prove helpful as he looks to acclimate to an NFL responsibility that is likely to ask him to play in the box.
My guy is McBride the wydermyer thing I read on the Browns website. btw how did McBride score out on that chart?
He didn't run at the combine, so I don't see his RAS yet. It should be much higher than Wydermyer.
I'll repeat what I said around the senior bowl. McBride reminds me of Kittle
Would the Browns consider moving up to late first round?
My guess is - No.
However, there is one scenario that I believe is possible. That is if the Browns were to sign Clowney to a two or three year deal.
That would insure a bookend to Myles. Leaving the middle of the line in question.
Then "if" Jordan Davis were still there at say 27. That would be the Bucs pick.
We could offer Baker and our second (44) to move to 27 and select Jordan Davis.
He would be a cornerstone DL interior player. He is so athletic. He could man more than one gap. He could be used many ways. He would become the ultimate run stuffer.
Clowney is so good coming down the backside against the run. Damn our DL would be killer.
I would love for this to happen. Will it? I wish.
Jordan Davis would be a nice addition. I thought about this a little. There is one more player that Berry has not resigned and he is Denzel Ward. Minnesota is sitting at #12.
Getting Davis and adding Clowny means you can play 3-3-5:
DL: Clowney; Davis; Garret.
LB: Phillips; Walker; JOK.
DB: Hill; Newsome; Greedy; JJ; Delpit.
Play Phillips and Walker in the middle. Hill and JOK as the slot corner and WOLB.
You can add, mix, and match to play different schemes, but that is still a solid group without Ward.
Oh God No! I think many of you are way over-rating Davis.
Oh God No! I think many of you are way over-rating Davis.
Is it many over-rating, or is it a few under-rating?
Would the Browns consider moving up to late first round?
My guess is - No.
However, there is one scenario that I believe is possible. That is if the Browns were to sign Clowney to a two or three year deal.
That would insure a bookend to Myles. Leaving the middle of the line in question.
Then "if" Jordan Davis were still there at say 27. That would be the Bucs pick.
We could offer Baker and our second (44) to move to 27 and select Jordan Davis.
He would be a cornerstone DL interior player. He is so athletic. He could man more than one gap. He could be used many ways. He would become the ultimate run stuffer.
Clowney is so good coming down the backside against the run. Damn our DL would be killer.
I would love for this to happen. Will it? I wish.
Jordan Davis would be a nice addition. I thought about this a little. There is one more player that Berry has not resigned and he is Denzel Ward. Minnesota is sitting at #12.
Getting Davis and adding Clowny means you can play 3-3-5:
DL: Clowney; Davis; Garret.
LB: Phillips; Walker; JOK.
DB: Hill; Newsome; Greedy; JJ; Delpit.
Play Phillips and Walker in the middle. Hill and JOK as the slot corner and WOLB.
You can add, mix, and match to play different schemes, but that is still a solid group without Ward.
Ward is a interesting mention. He very well could be a player we use as trade bait. He could be a player we use to move in to the 1st round because I have a feeling we aren't going to sign him.
I'd trade Ward for Davis.
Ward is an excellent player. I have great respect for him.
Sometimes you get to where you can not afford a player. This maybe one of those times. Regardless about Davis.
Berry drafted Newsome. That was a premeditated move. Berry plans ahead. There are options that can be found at corner. Greedy IMO played well. AJ Green played well.
Davis could be a cornerstone on the DL interior for a long time. There simply are not many men that can do what he can at his size. That is fact.
Corner will always be considered a priority over DL. However, exceptions do occur. Because of Davis's athleticism he is unique. He would be the untimate run stuffer. He would allow the DE's to hunt.
The other guy I see that could be around at the same spot as Davis is Kayvon Thibodeaux. I do not care about the chatter of him dropping.
It is not complicated. He has elite movement skill. Elite. He is explosive as a pass rusher. Very quick and powerful. He is a stud.
Draft day maybe more interesting than pick #44. We could see three guys used as trade chips - Baker, Hunt, and Ward.
Ward has the greatest value. Hunt will be gone next year to FA. At this point Baker is dead weight. His value could increase later because of injury to a starter but if there is a deal to move him. Berry will take less.
Davis or Thibodeaux would be great investments. We get one of those guys. The defense becomes imposing.
I am 100% opposed to trading Ward. He is an excellent player and I am always miffed when other posters give him crap. You two are not doing that, but others have. The guy is an excellent corner and the Browns put him in some difficult circumstances. The draft is exciting and sexy, but proven NFL stars are hard to find. Ward is an elite corner and any thoughts of trading him are counterproductive.
I also think folks undervalue Hunt. Chubb is my favorite Brown's player. However, I think Hunt is a more complete back. He is a better receiver than Chubb and is a superior blocker. Chubb is a better, more explosive runner if he has a hole at the first level, but Hunt runs better in traffic. I love both of those guys and wish to keep both. Hell, I really like D. Johnson, as well. Now, that we have a good qb.......the running lanes will open back up and our trio is going to be a huge force.
I have to fess up, I have called him Hospital Ward on more than a few occasions.
I agree he is an excellent corner. My feeling is he may not fit the cap profile we will be seeking. That isn't to say we won't sign him, or he will want a larger slice of the cap pie than we want to allocate.
I just find it hard to believe at this point we don't have some idea of what his agent is looking for, and if it is too high, i could see him being traded. Better than having to cut the kid.
I don't want to trade him, I just see it might become one of those necessary evils.
Money.
The Browns would love to extend Ward. The problem is he will be worth more than they can pay. Look at the contract Howard just got.
Next year DW money kicks in. Ward would go to FA same as Hunt. We could lose both. We can not pay everyone. Chubb was extended. They tendered D'earnest. If Hunt and or Ward is moved now. The team can get a return.
Hunt and Ward both are great players. Hunt is RB and can be replaced. He is a second string back on this roster. Berry signed D'earnest with a plan in mind. His numbers were as good/better than Hunt's. Hunt's true value is limited because of touches. Now with DW maybe even more so.
First year salaries can be manipulated. Paying second term contracts are very costly.
Berry can keep both Ward and Hunt this year then lose both next year. Berry doesn't plan that way. The same thing will happen with Conklin. Berry will expect Hudson to replace Conklin next year.
It happened with Tretter. Harris and now Pocic were planned moves. It happened to Jarvis as well.
Maybe Berry has another plan in place to manage cap. You can not pay everyone on this roster pro bowl money. Extended contracts include:
Myles, Chubb, Bitonio, Teller, Watson, Njoku (his contact is expected soon), JJ, Cooper.
They drafted Newsome and have Greedy. Delpit and JOK are in their long term plans.
I am not saying it will happen. But it might happen.
Oh God No! I think many of you are way over-rating Davis.
Is it many over-rating, or is it a few under-rating?
Most Draft sites had the guy rated as an early 2nd round pick before the combine now people are talking about him as a top 15 pick. I've watched a few of his games and while he's got some talent he sure doesn't come anywhere close to being dominating. He played in 41 games in his college career and averaged 2.2 tackles a game, 0.28 tackles for loss a game, and 0.17 sacks a game. His career college numbers are less than what Aaron Donald and Danny Shelton put up in 1 year. Now the guy is going to the NFL and will face better Olinemen then he did in college and people think he's all the sudden going to be a stud. I just don't see it.
I agree. That is why I have mentioned trading Hunt for a while now. He has trade value, and the time is now(ok....up until the trade deadline)
I hope Berry doesn't trade Ward, although if he does you can probably get a #1 for him now, I could live without Hunt even though I would rather not, what do you think we could get in return for Hunt, or do we throw him in with Baker to Seattle?
IMO to a degree you have to throw away his college stats. The reason is what he was asked to do on a defense that was close to NFL level.
The same reason Trevon Walker's number don't count for much as well.
They will look back at Georgia's defense some day as maybe the best ever. However, players were used in different roles because of the physical talent of so many.
Davis will dominate guards and centers. He is way bigger, stronger, and faster.
I honestly don't see Davis being a big factor against Lamar, Trubisky, or even Burrow really. If the league were entirely filled with Baker Mayfield at QB, maybe I'd be more on board. Even at 44 I'd be much more comfortable with taking a guy with documented weight control issues in college. Didn't play a ton of snaps. One play chasing Jackson and he might sit out the rest of the quarter. Maybe something clicked and he's going to get into great condition. More likely, getting paid will just make him more of who he has shown in college discipline wise. He's not a guy I'd trade up for. I think it's unlikely this FO would move that far up for a guy that isn't in one of the important positions from the guardrails (QB, CB, Pass rusher, OT.)
He could end up being a great player. I'm just not sure it is a gamble that I would pay a premium to make.
It's been said and stated several times by several posters that it's very hard to build or maintain a competitive roster after signing a QB to huge money. The salary cap dictates that we will now have to sacrifice talent at other positions in order to compensate for the cost of the QB position. Of course if you sign a QB who you drafted, at least you have first round draft picks with which to attempt to replace players you can no longer afford to extend due to your QB eating so much of your cap space. And then sometimes you place yourself in a position where you can't even do that.
Davis is 341 pounds. That is the size of Vince Wolfolk.
His broad jump was further than Odell's coming out of LSU.
His ten yard split was faster than Jarvis Landry.
There is nobody in the NFL that has his measureables. Not even close.
He would be there to stuff the run game not chase quarterbacks.
Regarding weight in college. He was in amazing shape at the Combine. IMO when you turn professional your conditioning is closely monitored.
The one on one training you receive is the best possible. I do think it will be a issue.
AFC quarterbacks:
Mahomes, Allen, Wilson, Herbert, Lamar, Burrow
NFC:
Brady, Rodgers, Dak, Stafford, Murray
If you expect to compete. You have to compete there.
You do. You also have to stretch your imagination to consider that QB not only has to perform well, he'll have to compensate for weaknesses in other departments of the team because those departments will end up lacking in top level talent to help pay his salary.
Only a couple of the names you mentioned cost those teams multiple first round draft picks to acquire in upcoming seasons. Most were drafted by their teams. That allows those teams to draft fisrt round talent to try and supplement the talent they will lose. Of course I already mentioned that part.
Once they are eligible for their second contract like Dak and Allen was, and Lamar this year and Murray and Herbert soon.
You pay to play. You figure out how to manage the cap. SF traded 2 ones and a third to trade up for Lance. Stafford cost 2 firsts, a third and Goff a former first pick in the draft.
The Broncos traded 2 firsts and 2 seconds, a fifth and Drew Lock to get Wilson.
I hope Berry doesn't trade Ward, although if he does you can probably get a #1 for him now, I could live without Hunt even though I would rather not, what do you think we could get in return for Hunt, or do we throw him in with Baker to Seattle?
I don't know what we could get for Hunt. Maybe a 4th round pick? Maybe a 3rd? Maybe a 5th?.
As for Ward, we probably could get a 1st. I can't imagine less than a 2nd rounder.
Again, I don't WANT to trade either, but I also don't want to get nothing for them if we can't keep them. Before I made any move to trade them I would know what it would take to keep them. That would be option A. If I didn't know that or they turned down a offer, then I would have to look at different plans, and a different plan would include the possibility of a trade.
A GM's job is to act in the best interest of the team. If the GM knows he isn't going to be able to extend a player for whatever reason, letting them walk with nothing in return isn't acting in the teams best interest.
As fans we primarily focus on the roster for this season. A GM is also focused on the roster a year or three down the road. They know all the moving parts. As fans we don't get that view.
It's odd how so many here pointed out just how much paying huge money for a QB hampered teams from building talent around them due to salary cap restraints. Now you pretend it isn't an issue. It most certainly is. It's simply the trade off you decide to make. How most of the scenarios you mentioned hasn't even had time to play themselves out yet. So we'll see.
Of course if one only looks in the opposite direction it's easy to see that just as many teams value the draft picks more than their QB's or these trades would never happen.
No doubt that for the Ying, there is the Yang.
Teams and people have to make those decisions every day.
I don't believe I pretended.
I stated you have to figure out how to manage the cap when you pay huge money for high priced quarterbacks. I am not arguing. I am showing what was given up in order to get what are considered premier quarterbacks.
The ones who traded for picks are no longer competitive. They made those trades because they are rebuilding.
I am 100% opposed to trading Ward. He is an excellent player and I am always miffed when other posters give him crap. You two are not doing that, but others have. The guy is an excellent corner and the Browns put him in some difficult circumstances. The draft is exciting and sexy, but proven NFL stars are hard to find. Ward is an elite corner and any thoughts of trading him are counterproductive.
I also think folks undervalue Hunt. Chubb is my favorite Brown's player. However, I think Hunt is a more complete back. He is a better receiver than Chubb and is a superior blocker. Chubb is a better, more explosive runner if he has a hole at the first level, but Hunt runs better in traffic. I love both of those guys and wish to keep both. Hell, I really like D. Johnson, as well. Now, that we have a good qb.......the running lanes will open back up and our trio is going to be a huge force.
I agree.
This will be a difficult decision either way. Keep him and you are making him the highest paid CB for four or five years. You must consider what you will do with Greedy and Newsome in the coming years. Trading Ward and you are giving up arguably the best corner in the NFL today.
My question to Berry why haven't you extended Ward yet?
I will almost bet Davis goes to Baltimore or Pittsburgh.
Interesting cap debate on whether you pay Ward or not. Easy to say "yes" but it will mean sacrifices elsewhere.
Kareem Hunt is another interesting debate. He is 26 years old. Is he tradeable? Can a team do reasonably well drafting a RB in the middle rounds? As you say we have a good QB. Do we need a high end RB? Is it better to spend the money on receivers? Don't get me wrong I like Hunt. I'm simply looking at it from a GM's perspective.
I think the discussion about whether to keep or trade Ward and/or Hunt has been good. Both sides are making good points. I would like to add one more factor to the Ward discussion. In today's NFL, you need multiple corners. There are many times you need three on the field. Teams are throwing the ball all over the place and often trot out 3 WR sets. Corners also tend to get nicked up during the season. Most tend to be slighter built guys and they are going against much thicker men in the TEs, downfield offensive linemen, and stout running backs. Hell, even some of the WRs are huge. Guys like Brown in Tennessee, Metcalf in Seattle, etc. Another thing to consider is that the AFC is loaded w/really good qbs who can beat you w/their arms and their legs. I am the belief that you can't have too many good corners.
Chubb was a no brainer to extend.
The tell from Berry was tendering D'ernest. When he played because of the injury to Hunt. His numbers were actually better.
Hunt will cost $8 with bonus money, salary etc.
D'ernest will cost $2.4
We will probably roll with Hunt this year and will not sign him as FA next year.
So, if there is a deal that makes sense he maybe a chip.
Ward is one of the best in the game. Berry knew when he drafted Newsome that Ward's extension maybe to rich for the team.
You hate it. But it happens.
When you look at the Tyreek Hill deal.
Not much different really. IMO that trade was brilliant by KC.
Sure you give a great receiver up that had chemistry with Mahomes. However, the contract that Hill was going to get.
No can do. KC got a boatload for him. Mahomes will throw it to someone else. The draft is loaded with really good receivers.
I think the discussion about whether to keep or trade Ward and/or Hunt has been good. Both sides are making good points. I would like to add one more factor to the Ward discussion. In today's NFL, you need multiple corners. There are many times you need three on the field. Teams are throwing the ball all over the place and often trot out 3 WR sets. Corners also tend to get nicked up during the season. Most tend to be slighter built guys and they are going against much thicker men in the TEs, downfield offensive linemen, and stout running backs. Hell, even some of the WRs are huge. Guys like Brown in Tennessee, Metcalf in Seattle, etc. Another thing to consider is that the AFC is loaded w/really good qbs who can beat you w/their arms and their legs. I am the belief that you can't have too many good corners.
Good point. Having Newsome and Ward is definitely a bonus. But, it comes at a cost. Can Berry continue drafting/FA supplementing the DL and safeties? Paying corners means you have limits elsewhere. Not saying that is good or bad it's simply the nature of the beast.
This is the same debate I had about whether Linderbaum was a good selection at #13. Tough bypassing the best seen at a position in 10 years. Kyle Hamilton is another good player. I know a center and safety is not the same ranking as a corner. Still, you want to draft the best.
Deciding where the money is spent keeping good players in something we'll have to watch Berry these next few years. Technically, we really don't know what Berry and Stefanski value the most. They have talked about it but talking and doing are two different things.
There is no way I intended to say I want to Trade Ward he is a top 5 CB in this league, and as Vers pointed out team play 3 CB's a lot, The NFL is a pass happy league and the AFC is loaded with great QB's, but as some have said and they are right also, the cost, Miami just signed their top CB to $25 mil a year, so you know Ward's agent is looking to cash in also and who can blame him, I think we are paying Ward around $13 mil this year so I expect him to play here and hope we can work something out for 2023. And thats the reason for the trade talk, teams just don't want to lose great players to FA which Denzel will be next year.
Boundary corners are a premium position in the NFL.
Ward is one of the best. Not many can play both styles of press man (physical jam press man and neuro press man) as well as zone.
Ward can. Berry places high value on corners. Hill was signed just to play slot corner. Newsome, Ward and Greedy is probably the best group in the league.
Corners do get injured and it is true that you can not have enough.
Berry is the epitome of "plan your work, work your plan."
This would be a hard decision. I don't know if will happen. Nor do I have an opinion if it should. I am just saying it might happen because of the financial factors.
I think we are all making valid points. It's a good discussion and it's nice to read different takes w/out all the BS. I don't know what the Browns will do and I think the money factor that some of you have brought up is a very valid and strong point. I hope we keep Ward because excellent outside corners are really hard to find, just as bonefish pointed out. However, I won't be surprised if we don't keep him. I just hope we do.
Davis is 341 pounds. That is the size of Vince Wolfolk.
His broad jump was further than Odell's coming out of LSU.
His ten yard split was faster than Jarvis Landry.
There is nobody in the NFL that has his measureables. Not even close.
He would be there to stuff the run game not chase quarterbacks.
Regarding weight in college. He was in amazing shape at the Combine. IMO when you turn professional your conditioning is closely monitored.
The one on one training you receive is the best possible. I do think it will be a issue.
Vince Wilfork played 964 snaps (80% of NE's defensive snaps and some ST) in 2012 (the earliest pro-football reference has snap count info for him.)
Jordan Davis played 1127 snaps his entire college career. (47 games) Even in his best conditioned year (2021) he's only playing ~40% of Georgia's defensive snaps. His measurables were impressive. I have questions about his ability to play up to those measurables consistently without wearing down. He generally was replaced in 3rd down situations. His highlights and cut ups don't show all the time he was over on the sidelines. Half his TFLs were in September as were 1.5 of his whopping 2 sacks. He looked pretty good in the playoffs but he had almost a month off between the SEC championship and the playoff game against Michigan, then a Friday to Monday "long" week to the NCAA championship. How will he hold up over an even longer season against better competition?
I don't know who will be available at #44, no one does or if we will even stay there. JMO I believe we will take the BPA at #44 at a position of need. Edge rusher, DL,LB and WR I would guess. Right now it could be anyone at those positions. Of course that may change after FA. Remains to be seen.
A kid becoming a man and getting paid.
I honestly don't see Davis being a big factor against Lamar, Trubisky, or even Burrow really. If the league were entirely filled with Baker Mayfield at QB, maybe I'd be more on board. Even at 44 I'd be much more comfortable with taking a guy with documented weight control issues in college. Didn't play a ton of snaps. One play chasing Jackson and he might sit out the rest of the quarter. Maybe something clicked and he's going to get into great condition. More likely, getting paid will just make him more of who he has shown in college discipline wise. He's not a guy I'd trade up for. I think it's unlikely this FO would move that far up for a guy that isn't in one of the important positions from the guardrails (QB, CB, Pass rusher, OT.)
He could end up being a great player. I'm just not sure it is a gamble that I would pay a premium to make.
I am with you on this. Davis is a run stuffer in a passing league. His snap counts will be limited. He's ineffective on passing downs.
Like you mentioned, once he gets paid, I could see him really letting himself go, physically.
His highest graded year per PFF was this past season with a grade of 79.8 which rated him 80th of 861 graded defensive interior lineman.
From PFF:Pros Comically large. As powerful a defensive tackle as we've seen in recent college football.
Surprising range for a man his size. Can make plays on wide runs.
Sinks his anchor very well against double-teams. Rarely moved at all.
Cons Wore down very easily. Had such a low workload, even when games weren't blowouts.
Lateral agility nowhere near his linear explosiveness.
Has a bull-rush and pretty much nothing else as a pass-rusher.
I think the discussion about whether to keep or trade Ward and/or Hunt has been good. Both sides are making good points. I would like to add one more factor to the Ward discussion. In today's NFL, you need multiple corners. There are many times you need three on the field. Teams are throwing the ball all over the place and often trot out 3 WR sets. Corners also tend to get nicked up during the season. Most tend to be slighter built guys and they are going against much thicker men in the TEs, downfield offensive linemen, and stout running backs. Hell, even some of the WRs are huge. Guys like Brown in Tennessee, Metcalf in Seattle, etc. Another thing to consider is that the AFC is loaded w/really good qbs who can beat you w/their arms and their legs. I am the belief that you can't have too many good corners.
I agree that corner is a important position. You need numbers and you need good. You still have cap allocation to consider.
Earlier someone wondered why we haven't inked Ward to this point.
First, I think his injury history plays a role. For whatever reason, he has been hurt a lot. More than the dings you mentioned.
The other reason is I think the Browns and Ward are waiting for the new cap figures to come out. And this was before signing Watson. Right now we probably don't have room to extend Ward.
I wonder if Watson's contract is a factor. Not capwise, but simple cashflow. The Haslams have money, but how much of it is liquid? Almost a quarter billion of it just got set aside with the whole NFL guarantees/escrow deal.
I wonder if Watson's contract is a factor. Not capwise, but simple cashflow. The Haslams have money, but how much of it is liquid? Almost a quarter billion of it just got set aside with the whole NFL guarantees/escrow deal.
I don't know, but when you have that much, you are also smart enough to keep more than nickels and dimes in your pocket.
No matter, I am sure they could have several million in maybe a week if needed. Even minus the Browns and the escrow amount they are still worth near 2 billion. It doesn't take your broker or whoever that long to raise some cash if needed. I am sure they will be able to put groceries on the table for the next week or so.
It's not grocery money I'm thinking about. If Ward wants ~$50M in guarantees, that's not exactly nickels and dimes. An older Xavier Howard just got $36.3M guaranteed. If Clowney wants upwards of $20M guaranteed, that adds up quick. They just took $230M out of their pockets.
The speed with which you can raise cash depends upon where your assets are allocated. I don't know the cashflow of the annual TV deals. Is that spread out monthly or is it in one big annual chunk? Could they be waiting on a large scheduled inflow?
Warren Buffett paid $2.76 billion for its 38.6% stake in Pilot Travel Centers in 2018. I think Jimmy is fine in the "cash" department.
Warren Buffett paid $2.76 billion for its 38.6% stake in Pilot Travel Centers in 2018. I think Jimmy is fine in the "cash" department.
And scheduled to buy nearly 60% more, maybe this or next year. I think the Haslams are keeping a 30% stake.
As for Ward....I think the high guarantees will be reserved for the QB position for a while. Maybe always. Any problem with signing Ward will be a function of cap space.
Another thought. Is it even true the money has to go in to escrow? It makes some sense, but I have never heard about this with a contract that has some other amount guaranteed.
The Cash Misconception
Most billionaires are surprisingly cash poor on a relative basis. The average billionaire only holds 1% of their net worth in liquid assets like cash because the vast majority of their fortunes are usually tied up in business interests, stocks, bonds, mutual funds and other financial assets.
That may not be the most unbiased source, but it does a decent job of explaining a potential situation that I was trying to get at.
Jimmy has a lot of wealth. It's probably not just sitting around in cash form, though.I don't know this, it's just a possibility. He could have swimming pools filled with hundred dollar bills just lying around, but I doubt it. It's probably not just sitting in a checking or savings account, either.
Warren Buffett paid $2.76 billion for its 38.6% stake in Pilot Travel Centers in 2018. I think Jimmy is fine in the "cash" department.
And scheduled to buy nearly 60% more, maybe this or next year. I think the Haslams are keeping a 30% stake.
As for Ward....I think the high guarantees will be reserved for the QB position for a while. Maybe always. Any problem with signing Ward will be a function of cap space.
Marshon Lattimore whose overall contract has a similar value as spotrac puts on Ward got ~58M guaranteed.
Cool. If we can't sign Ward, we can't sign him. I don't think it will be a problem unless Ward wants too much. Then we move on, but that is next year.
I understand people of great wealth don't have millions sitting in a checking account. Even people of modest wealth don't. I'd say most people's wealth isn't liquid. If a average person owns a home, it is probable most of their wealth isn't liquid.
I also looked up the escrow situation. I didn't copy a link, but it said we had to put 169Mil in escrow based on some formula the NFL uses.
A Gators fan friend of mine thinks we should get Trayvon Walker . He is a hybrid D lineman and his number was 44 so theres that
Another thought. Is it even true the money has to go in to escrow? It makes some sense, but I have never heard about this with a contract that has some other amount guaranteed.
Yes. Fully guaranteed money has to go in an escrow account.
And the 169M doesn't include the ~45M signing bonus that already went to Watson.
Another thought. Is it even true the money has to go in to escrow? It makes some sense, but I have never heard about this with a contract that has some other amount guaranteed.
Yes. Fully guaranteed money has to go in an escrow account.
I added that after my first post but you probably replied before seeing the replay. 169 mil does. That amount probably fulfills the percentange necessary. That money will earn interest over the 4-5 years as it is drawn down.
I guess I don't see the problem. I would assume it works that way for all contracts, and that is the point. In the grand scheme, it all still revolves around the salary cap. Teams have been placing large sums in escrow for a long time.
My feeling is the biggest problem with other owners revolves around risk, and it is a risk.
In the end I don't think we will see teams throwing fully guaranteed contracts all over the board. I think it will mostly be limited to the top QB's. As an example, I don't think we will see running backs getting those contracts. Some positions are more susceptible to career ending or career limiting injury over other positions. One also has to think that teams can insure their investment to at least minimize the financial risk.
When we had #13 Davis was my guy. The one player that could best impact our Defense.
Ward would be the only way - I think he is a great player which is why he is worth a first round pick. Question is can we afford to resign him now that we got a DW contract around our necks. I'd hate to lose him to FA and get nothing but compensation picks.
Talking about Davis not being able to single handedly handle Lamar, Burrows, etc. is foolish talk. No but what he can do is cave in that underbelly of a pocket and if we got Garret, Clowney and a blitzing JOK QBs cant hitch step to an open window. The sooner you cave that in the more destruction you can have from the edge.
So I never thought of moving up that far for a player.
But realistically you got to just look at #44 For me its McBride or Leal...I think Jones will be gone but who knows.
The percentage necessary is 100. The 169 is after his signing bonus and this year's pay.
It's not such a big deal for some owners, it would be for others. 169M after all other expenditures, after all other contracts, after all other improvements; for owners with a large part of their cash "tied up", would be impossible.
The bill is coming due for a guy (Ward) who has been injured quite a bit. I don't want to lose him because having 2 shutdown corners (Newsome played fantastic considering he was a rookie) PLUS depth in Greedy is a boon to any D. That said, unless he signs an extremely team-friendly deal, re-signing him plus doing all the other things we want to do (Clowney and another WR, for starters) is going to be tough. Not that I want to trade him, but I'll still point out that his trade value is sky-high right now. Stats are trending in the right direction and he's put some space between now and his last injury.
I wouldn't be shocked if we were to move him for a high draft pick.
I don't see us letting an in his prime pro bowl caliber CB go. That's a position worth investing in. When Newsome is up for his second contract and Ward is approaching 30, that's when I'd consider trading him. Hopefully after/with the intention of replacing his spot with a new version of Newsome/Ward.
That makes much more sense to me than trading him now.
Both are sizeable WR's. 6'3" and 6'4".
When we had #13 Davis was my guy.
Same here. So much depends as to whether we get Landry and Clowney back. IMO, DT is in play as well as a WR or DE depending on holes to fill....
I hope if we are looking to draft Christain Watson, it's for day three, because having poor ball skills is not good for a DB ... but it is a must for a WR.
There will be a good player available when the Browns pick at #44.
Two players who "might be" there that IMO carry a first round grade and would be great value at 44 are;
Arnold Ebiketie and George Pickens.
"PFF":
There is a good chance an NFL team falls in love with Ebiketie early enough that he’s not only a first-round pick but a top-20 pick. His talent is really that outrageous, and he backed it up with nice testing numbers.
At 6-foot-2 and 250 pounds, he isn’t the biggest player at the position, but placing in the 79th percentile in arm length and the 87th percentile in hand size means he can probably make up for his body size. He jumped extremely far, as well, placing in the 91st percentile in the vertical jump and the 96th in the broad jump.
Ebiketie's tape and production numbers also match up correctly. He is both a pass-rushing specialist and excellent against the run. His value — if he does fall to the second round — is tremendous. Starting his career at Temple, he produced a 78.3 pass-rush grade in 2019, his first year with real playing time. He upped it to 88.3 the next year, which prompted a transfer to Penn State. There, playing against tougher competition, he finished 2021 with a 90.5 pass-rush grade. Getting better every year all the while jumping up a level in competition bodes well for Ebiketie and whichever team gets its hands on him.
=============================================================================================
Career drop rates
George Pickens: 2.1%
Skyy Moore: 3.3%
Chris Olave: 4.7%
Jahan Dotson: 5.1%
Drake London: 5.7
Alec Pierce: 6.4%
Garrett Wilson: 6.8%
Justyn Ross: 7.1%
Treylon Burks: 7.4%
Jameson Williams: 7.7%
Jalen Tolbert: 8.4%
Christian Watson: 12.7%
https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2022...orge-pickens-nfl-mock-draft-mcshay-2022/
This link has the Relative Athletic Score of Pickens.
I don't pay much attention to drop rates. Somewhere that is a subjective call. Some of those calls have to be in the gray area. Even if 1 person is making all the decisions on that, it isn't going to be consistent.
I'm intrigued by Ebiketie...but there are a lot of garbage teams in the B1G to feast on. Did I read somewhere that he put on some good weight recently? His game tape is certainly worthy.
There is a lot to like about DE Arnold Ebiketie ... however he is already 23 years old, which is passed our draft guard rails, so he would be an exception to that rule.
Of note:
Christain Watson's drop rates are obviously not good, and that's before adjusting for his poor level of competition too.
PFF:
"There is a good chance an NFL team falls in love with Ebiketie early enough that he’s not only a first-round pick but a top-20 pick. His talent is really that outrageous, and he backed it up with nice testing numbers.
At 6-foot-2 and 250 pounds, he isn’t the biggest player at the position, but placing in the 79th percentile in arm length and the 87th percentile in hand size means he can probably make up for his body size. He jumped extremely far, as well, placing in the 91st percentile in the vertical jump and the 96th in the broad jump.
Ebiketie's tape and production numbers also match up correctly. He is both a pass-rushing specialist and excellent against the run. His value — if he does fall to the second round — is tremendous. Starting his career at Temple, he produced a 78.3 pass-rush grade in 2019, his first year with real playing time. He upped it to 88.3 the next year, which prompted a transfer to Penn State. There, playing against tougher competition, he finished 2021 with a 90.5 pass-rush grade. Getting better every year all the while jumping up a level in competition bodes well for Ebiketie and whichever team gets its hands on him."
=============================================================================================
Pickens IMO would be in the first round if it were not for injury history.
He has everything you look for. Good size at 6'3" and 210lbs. He is fast. Ran a 4.47. He has the lowest drop rate.
What I like about him is how he competes. He is a demon when the ball is in the air. Like Garrett Wilson he has that gumby skill of being able to adjust his body in the air. He makes contested catches. He is a good blocker. He is a decent route runner. He played for Georgia against great competition. His teammate Nakobe Dean says he is the toughest player he has played against.
We don't get to interview guys. Nor do we get to see private workouts.
I watch tape and read some scouting reports. Limited information. I form an opinion based upon traits and athletic skill.
I look for things they do at their position that stand out to me. And mostly I try to project them at the pro level.
Both Pickens and Ebiketie and Pickens IMO show first round skills. Them being considered available in the second are for reasons other than just pure ability.
imo ... it's Pickens small body of work and not his ACL (see Jameson Williams) keeping him from being seen as a first round pick ... but also it's my opinion this is a media driven narrative and not one shared by those in the FOs' who will make the final decisions.
But, yes Pickens falling to us in the 2nd round would be (such a Browns thing) as welcome as JOK was in last year's draft.
That is the thing. He does have a small body of work.
All I see is what the tape shows me. I do look at measurables but mostly I try to figure what will help him succeed at the NFL level.
Much like JOK last year. I don't watch much college ball. So as the draft process began I looked at Browns need. Last year corner and linebacker.
I saw JOK won the Butkus Award. I turned on the tape. WOW! I was blown away by him. Once we selected Newsome(a great pick). I thought no way we get JOK. When we got him. I went bonkers. Called my son and just went off.
There are a number of really good receiver prospects that should be there when we pick at 44.
Christian Watson, Skyy Moore, (Jahan Dotson - I doubt he will be there) and Pickens.
I like all those guys. Pickens looks like first round talent to me.
I think that we will eventually sign another veteran receiver, so WR is not such a high priority in this years draft as it still is with many others after we trading for Cooper, and I'm not as high on this years class of WRs' either, as some others are ... that said,
Pickens is the one WR I would have a hard time passing on @44.
I think that we will eventually sign another veteran receiver, so WR is not such a high priority in this years draft as it still is with many others after we trading for Cooper, and I'm not as high on this years class of WRs' either, as some others are ... that said,
Pickens is the one WR I would have a hard time passing on @44.
I like Pickens.
I think you are wrong about this years receiver class. It is very deep. So deep it wouldn't concern me much if we didn't take a receiver until the 4th round.
I may be a little different about receivers. I don't need the big names. I just care if they can get open and catch the ball in the short area..
I don't need 70 yard TD grabs. A 12 yard catch for a 1st down works for me.
One stat that I pay attention to from the Combine is the ten yard split.
How fast does a guy go from the start; that first ten yards. Quickness counts. One of the other things I pay attention to when looking at a receiver is how they handle physical jam press man. The NFL teaches corners to disrupt routes and jam guys on some coverages for the first five yards.
How do receivers hand fight and get off?
Some of the bigger physical NFL receivers can put a smaller corner on their heels and beat that physical jam. So, some corners will then play neuro match press man. They will get right up on the receiver but will not touch him and just match up.
I really like physical receivers because the NFL plays press man often.
George Pickens is over 6'3" and 210 lb. He ran a 4.47. His ten yard split was 1.5. That is the same as Tyreek Hill and Anthony Schwartz.
When you watch his tape. He does not get jammed. He can hand fight off the line. I saw him against Roger McCreary of Auburn. One hand shot to the chest of McCreary and he blew past him.
I believe Pickens could be as good as any receiver in the draft.
I think that we will eventually sign another veteran receiver, so WR is not such a high priority in this years draft as it still is with many others after we trading for Cooper, and I'm not as high on this years class of WRs' either, as some others are ... that said,
Pickens is the one WR I would have a hard time passing on @44.
I like Pickens.
I think you are wrong about this years receiver class. It is very deep. So deep it wouldn't concern me much if we didn't take a receiver until the 4th round.
I may be a little different about receivers. I don't need the big names. I just care if they can get open and catch the ball in the short area..
I don't need 70 yard TD grabs. A 12 yard catch for a 1st down works for me.
It's deep in mediocrity, there are very few (X) receiver types, with mostly (Z) and slot types.
44. Cleveland Browns | Houston DL Logan Hall
78. Cleveland Browns | South Carolina EDGE Kingsley Enagbare
99. Cleveland Browns | Nevada WR Romeo Doubs
well just a week away from draft day.
More and more I'm leaning towards us taking DT Travis Jones - many mocks have us taking Winfrey but I would rather have Jones. He has excellent size and is athletic also he so freaking strong I see him fitting into our DL for many years.
jmho if he is gone I hope we get Trey McBride TE...or get lucky on a good WR. My "LUCK" part would be if somehow Datson falls to us.
44. Cleveland Browns | Houston DL Logan Hall
78. Cleveland Browns | South Carolina EDGE Kingsley Enagbare
99. Cleveland Browns | Nevada WR Romeo Doubs
I'd like that draft. Doubs is a guy I have mentioned who I like who can become a productive NFl receiver. Maybe even fall in to the steal category, though he might need to be selected at 78 if we really want him. 99 might be cutting it a bit close IMO.
I see Berry making a move up. He is a mover and shaker on draft day...I don't know if it will be into the first round....But I can definitely see a move up in the second if they have pegged a guy. I like a bunch of the names thrown out at WR. I am afraid I have not looked at the DT's a closely so will stick with WR. It wouldn't surprise me if Berry goes with Best on the board regardless of position. But looking at WR...the Comparison to Landry (I think it was Dotson to Landry) it's funny...because I feel the exact same way about Metchie...Not only in style of play, but also in situation and more importantly personality/attitude. Landry was undervalued, I think Metchie is as well even with the ACL. Metchie appears to be like Jarvis in that he will do everything to prove the doubters wrong. I can just see him as that guy people overlooked int he draft that comes out and catches people off guard and catches fire. That being said of all the WR's mentioned...the one that Intrigues me most is Christian Watson. Not just because of his measurables. He is a late bloomer as far as body size, comes from an FCS school but overwhelmed some really good DB's at the Senior Bowl. His size and speed does not come around often and I honestly think he has more potential than Treylon Burks(sp)....Burks has better speed than he showed at the combine...but I still think Watson has a higher ceiling. JMO. I also love his back story and it shows a work ethic and desire that fits in with what we look for. It is a possibility that if we really want him we will have to move up to get him.
As far as TE...I would love to get our hands on Ruckert. He is a really good run blocker that I think is undervalued as a pass catcher...Not sure he is worth the 44....but would like him and I think he would fit our scheme well.
I can hear Jimmy Donovan now as Doubs is sprinting towards the goal line... "Romeo, Oh!!, Romeo!!
Christian Watson was brought to Berea so the Browns are interested.
He has the gifts of height and speed. I have not watched much of his game tape and did not see his drops.
Drops for a receiver are not a good thing at all. So it would be important to see every drop he had. Look closely. How does he catch the ball?
Sometimes it is a concentration thing. Other times it maybe that he tries to use his body to cradle that is poor technique.
Extensive jugs machine work and hands on coaching can correct some things. However, some receivers are glue. They have a natural knack for catching.
Watch the tape on Garrett, Pickens, Jahan Dotson and Skyy Moore. They have natural hands and body control. All of them play a little different game.
But when that ball is in the air. They come down with it. I place a high value on that. Technique and quickness will allow a good route runner to gain separation. But in the NFL you have to make contested catches. The defenders are real good and the defenses are sophisticated.
Christian Watson was brought to Berea so the Browns are interested.
He has the gifts of height and speed. I have not watched much of his game tape and did not see his drops.
Drops for a receiver are not a good thing at all. So it would be important to see every drop he had. Look closely. How does he catch the ball?
Sometimes it is a concentration thing. Other times it maybe that he tries to use his body to cradle that is poor technique.
Extensive jugs machine work and hands on coaching can correct some things. However, some receivers are glue. They have a natural knack for catching.
Watch the tape on Garrett, Pickens, Jahan Dotson and Skyy Moore. They have natural hands and body control. All of them play a little different game.
But when that ball is in the air. They come down with it. I place a high value on that. Technique and quickness will allow a good route runner to gain separation. But in the NFL you have to make contested catches. The defenders are real good and the defenses are sophisticated.
But he will still be drafted somewhere on day two. I just hope that if we take him it is with the 99th pick and not before ... as a former WR, I have a problem with poor hands when it comes WRs' even if they run fast ... See Schwartz for an example.
Got links to those reports on him? would be interested in reading them. I didn't hear about any hands issues...I did hear that sometimes he doesn't time his jumps well...The negatives I heard were that and limited route tree...basically things that are coachable. And even on the route tree they said against the better DB's at the Senior Bowl he was really working them on the top of the routes and giving them a real hard time...
Got links to those reports on him? would be interested in reading them. I didn't hear about any hands issues...I did hear that sometimes he doesn't time his jumps well...The negatives I heard were that and limited route tree...basically things that are coachable. And even on the route tree they said against the better DB's at the Senior Bowl he was really working them on the top of the routes and giving them a real hard time...
75. WR CHRISTIAN WATSON, NORTH DAKOTA STATE
"The NFL Scouting Combine king is more than just a high-level testing athlete. He's a super flexible 6-foot-4, 208-pound receiver who can adjust to balls easily outside his frame. The drop issues and ball tracking are a tad concerning, however, as Watson dropped 16 passes on 120 career catchable targets."
... Watson has more drops than TDs'
Thanks...hmm interesting tho...and not trying to stick up for Watson but a thing I see in many scouting reports where they mention positives and negatives that are essentially the same thing or sometime ARE the same thing...
In this case he adjusts easily to balls outside his frame but has bad ball tracking...how do you do one without the other?
Does it mention when those drops were....Early in his time there. consistently...all last year???? LOL But I agree that ball tracking and hands are a concern for me. I don't care how fast you are...if you can get open and catch the ball, I like you for my team (which is why I was always a Brian Brennan Fan...)
Got links to those reports on him? would be interested in reading them. I didn't hear about any hands issues...I did hear that sometimes he doesn't time his jumps well...The negatives I heard were that and limited route tree...basically things that are coachable. And even on the route tree they said against the better DB's at the Senior Bowl he was really working them on the top of the routes and giving them a real hard time...
75. WR CHRISTIAN WATSON, NORTH DAKOTA STATE
"The NFL Scouting Combine king is more than just a high-level testing athlete. He's a super flexible 6-foot-4, 208-pound receiver who can adjust to balls easily outside his frame. The drop issues and ball tracking are a tad concerning, however, as Watson dropped 16 passes on 120 career catchable targets."
... Watson has more drops than TDs'My questions on drops is this....16 drops on 120 catchable targets raises a caution flag of sorts. How many drops would be a good number? I would assume it is more than 0, so how many more drops does the guy have over what would be considered OK?
I also discount some counted drops. Who makes that determination? At least to me, at least a few that are called drops by some guy watching film probably weren't out and out drops. There are some legit reasons why a guy looks to drop a catchable ball.
How many times have we seen a thrown ball hit a guy in the face? Was it because he is a dummy who likes to look like a fool, or is it that maybe the QB had to throw it a bit early or a defender shielded his view until BAM, it was there.
Thanks...hmm interesting tho...and not trying to stick up for Watson but a thing I see in many scouting reports where they mention positives and negatives that are essentially the same thing or sometime ARE the same thing...
In this case he adjusts easily to balls outside his frame but has bad ball tracking...how do you do one without the other?
Does it mention when those drops were....Early in his time there. consistently...all last year???? LOL But I agree that ball tracking and hands are a concern for me. I don't care how fast you are...if you can get open and catch the ball, I like you for my team (which is why I was always a Brian Brennan Fan...)
And I am not suggesting that Watson is undraftable ... just not with our 44th selection.
Some of the talk had gone beyond #44. I agree. I don't want him at #44.
Per pff (final) big board:
75. WR CHRISTIAN WATSON, NORTH DAKOTA STATE
"The NFL Scouting Combine king is more than just a high-level testing athlete. He's a super flexible 6-foot-4, 208-pound receiver who can adjust to balls easily outside his frame. The drop issues and ball tracking are a tad concerning, however, as Watson dropped 16 passes on 120 career catchable targets."
That is a 13% drop rate.
I saw where the top receivers in the draft as far as drop % goes are under 5%
I didn't see anyone under 4%
When you have a guy with his height and speed. You bring him in and take a closer look.
I can not speak to his true ability because I have not studied him.
He played against weak competition. He should have dominated. I don't if he did.
He is worth a close look.
George Pickens was a five star recruit. He played against the best. His Relative Athletic Score is very high. He has first round talent written all over him. I would be willing to move some to get him. IMO he could be the best receiver in this class. The only reason he might be there is because he was injured.
I've been beating the drum for serious attention to the interior DL for the last 3 drafts. If Perrion Winfrey is available at 44 that's my pick. The WR position is deep. Deeper in quality depth than DL. So...
When you have a guy with his height and speed. You bring him in and take a closer look.
I can not speak to his true ability because I have not studied him.
He played against weak competition. He should have dominated. I don't if he did.
He is worth a close look.
George Pickens was a five star recruit. He played against the best. His Relative Athletic Score is very high. He has first round talent written all over him. I would be willing to move some to get him. IMO he could be the best receiver in this class. The only reason he might be there is because he was injured.
I was listening to Louis Riddick today and he was talking about Alec Pierce from Cincinnati. Said he has around 6'3", ran fast at the Combine, great in the red zone and on contested catches. Riddick is a really smart guy and I value his opinions. He has a good shot of being the next Steelers' GM.
Here is a player profile on Pierce.
Alec Pierce NFL Draft 2022: Scouting Report for Cincinnati WR
BR NFL SCOUTING DEPARTMENT
Ian Johnson/Icon Sportswire via Getty Images
HEIGHT: 6'3 1/8"
WEIGHT: 211
HAND: 9"
ARM: 33"
WINGSPAN: 6'6 1/2"
40-YARD DASH: 4.33
3-CONE: 7.13
SHUTTLE: 4.28
VERTICAL: 40.5"
BROAD: 10'9"
POSITIVES
— Good height, size and length as an outside receiver.
— Very good overall athlete with body control and explosive jumping ability.
— Legit weapon in the red zone. Has very good catching range and can consistently high-point throws and adjust for back-shoulder throws.
— Aligned outside and in the slot for Cincinnati.
— Consistently wins versus press because of his good foot quickness, balance and play strength.
— Good hands. Comfortable extending for throws away from his body.
— Above-average overall route-runner who showed improvement as the season went along.
— Has experience and production as a special teamer.
— Willing blocker with good play strength and effort.
Videos you might like
NEGATIVES
— Average with the ball in his hands. Doesn’t consistently make defenders miss with the ball in tight spaces.
— Still has room for improvement with his route running—namely on comebacks and other tight out-breakers.
2021 STATISTICS
13 G, 52 REC, 884 YDS (17.0 AVG), 8 TD
NOTES
— 2021 second-team All-AAC
OVERALL
Pierce is a very athletic, explosive receiver who aligned in the slot and outside in college. He has good height and size and can win consistently versus press coverage because of his good foot quickness and balance. He can sink enough to keep his chest from being exposed to more physical cornerbacks and maintain his path because of his good core strength and body control.
He is a true ball-winning receiver who high-points throws in the red zone and can consistently adjust his body on back-shoulder throws when running go routes. He has good length, and his natural hands as a receiver on throws to and away from his body allow him to maximize his catching range.
Pierce has more nuance to his game than just ball-winning on contested catches. He improved as a route-runner as the season went along and showed attention to detail with his depth and breaking points. But he does need to continue to refine his route tree and polish. He will need to keep improving on shorter routes to be a true option from the slot. He can also be inconsistent when coming out of his breaks and get “stuck” on the top of his outbreaking routes, such as comebacks. And while Pierce has above-average long speed, he is average with the ball in his hands after the catch. He has flashes of burst and the balance to bounce off defenders but isn’t overly shifty in open space.
Overall, Pierce will be an immediate contributor for any NFL offense thanks to his true ball-winning ability that will make him a target in the red zone. He is a good blocker who plays with good effort on every snap in both the run game and on any route he’s asked to execute, which also gives him potential to be utilized as a "power slot" on snaps.
His improvement as a route-runner last season combined with his overall athleticism shows there can be even more room for growth. His package of explosiveness, hands and improvement as a true receiver gives Pierce the upside of a very good starting Z wide receiver for any NFL offense. He can also bump inside for more than a handful of snaps per game and rack up touchdowns for designer plays in the red zone.
GRADE: 7.7 (Potential Impact Player - 2nd Round)
OVERALL RANK: 45
POSITION RANK: WR10
PRO COMPARISON: Eric Decker
Written by B/R NFL Scout Nate Tice
As far as limiting it to possible picks, my order of preference at 44 would be:
1) George Pickens, WR, Georgia
2) Travis Jones, DT, Uconn
3) Daxton Hill, S, Michigan (he is an absolute missile, I can't help it)
If Jarvis signs that changes the formula.
We should then go BPA DL.
After that strictly BPA. Pierce would be a great third. He has every measureable. 40.5" verticle is wild.
If Jarvis signes it provides flexibility in the draft. Get Travis Jones maybe come back and grab Winfrey.
I like those two in combination. Winfrey can get upfield. Jones can stay in gap.
I heard jarvis was going to wait till after the draft before making a decision on where he would want to go
Tab. Yesterday a report came out saying he would decide between the Saints and the Browns.
It might be before the draft but that has not been made clear yet.
As the draft nears and pick 44 looms.
Who falls?
Grant Delpit was drafted with pick 44. He had some injury history but ran a 4.4 at the combine. Many considered him a first round talent.
JOK fell to the Browns in the second round pick 52.
========================================================================================
Who could fall to the Browns in the second round?
Treylon Burks. When the draft process started there lots of talk of Burks at 13. He ran a disappointing 40. People started dropping him in mocks. Mocks are not GM's. The Browns have brought him in to Berea. So, there is interest.
George Pickens. He is no longer a sleeper pick. People have gotten on his wagon. I am one of those. He was brought to my attention early in the process by Greg Cosell. Someone I hold in high respect. When I watched his tape. It was a big Wow. I saw nothing but first round talent.
Devonte Wyatt. I doubt he will fall. I read about an incident that someone posted about a domestic dispute. All I found was he kicked a door. There was nothing mentioned about violence or anyone in fear of assult?
On tape I see talent. Power, speed, quickness. He played on a great defense. He was productive. He looks like a really disruptive player.
David Ojabo tore his achillies at his pro day. I doubt that works for the Browns. He will fall. I was not crazy for him.
Jahan Dotson. Very productive player. He is all over the place from pick 20 to pick 45.
Perrion Winfrey actually rose up the Board with a strong senior bowl week. Nobody could handle him during the week. Then he was the player of the game. He was lost at Oklahoma. Played out of position. This guy gets after people. He can get upfield. Very good interior pass rush. He is a favoite of my man Quincy Carrier.
Arnold Ebikitie. I believe in this guy. Some have as a high. Like bottom of the first. I would love to get him at 44. IMO he could be damn good pass rusher.
Seeing some mock drafts that have Tyler Linderbaum C Iowa falling out of the 1st round. He usually goes high 2nd, but while unlikely, what if he falls to #44?
Do we take him?
If he makes it to day 2, is there a point that you would trade up to get him?
Seeing some mock drafts that have Tyler Linderbaum C Iowa falling out of the 1st round. He usually goes high 2nd, but while unlikely, what if he falls to #44?
Do we take him?
If he makes it to day 2, is there a point that you would trade up to get him?
If he’s there at 44 you throw a party. If he starts falling toward the back third of the first round you start making calls to trade up and get him.
It all depends how confident we are in Harris as our Center if we are we won't double down a year that we would have two 2nd round picks maybe but not this year.
Last minute change for me in who I want us to take and who I think we would take at #44. Sam Williams is a pass rushing stud I don't know why none of the experts are talking about him.
6'4" 261 4.46 40 had 12.5 sacks in 13 games played in the SEC Ole Miss. 4 forced fumbles 10th in the nation. No reason he is considered so low I don't get it. I think he would prosper on the other side of Garrett and will give a blow to Clowney and Garrett.
I've read he is dropping because of sex assault charges that were dropped but he's been clean ever since the suspension in 2020 I think he came back that year and played 8 games??? but no problems since. Heck we just gave 200++million to much worse that that. I don't see why we would go for it. One offense and dropped even if not dropped its one offense not repeated.
I wonder how many giving their picks here are assuming Clowney will re-sign with us. There's mention of him wanting a two yr deal but here we are heading into the draft and all is quiet.
Last year he committed to us two weeks ahead of the draft. If we fail to re-sign Clowney by tomorrow the fo might be changing their draft board.
Well, Clowney hasn't signed with anyone else, either... so, it isn't exactly a strike against us or him.
There could be a bunch of reasons why he isn't onboard, yet, but I've been of the mind that we won't actually sign him until after June 1st, when the Hooper cap space gets freed up.
Sam Williams is 17th on Dane Bruglers Edge Rusher list.
SUMMARY: A three-year starter at Ole Miss, Williams was a hybrid boundary end (two and three point) in defensive coordinator Chris Partridge’s 3-3-5 base scheme,
lining primarily in the 4i-technique. He turned his flashes into more consistent production as a senior, breaking the single-season school record with 12.5 sacks, which
ranked top-five in the FBS in 2021. Although he needs better setup and countering skills mid-rush, Williams creates a surge with his hard-charging athleticism and
violent hands. In the run game, he has a reliable motor but struggles to control the point because of a faulty anchor and tall pads. Overall, Williams must improve his
discipline to be a more consistent edge-setter and rusher, but he has the upfield acceleration and attacking mentality to affect the game as a quarterback hunter.
He is an exciting pass rush prospect in subpackages with potential to be more.
Regards Harris as our Center vs Linderbaum .... I think it's a total no brainer. Linderbaum to me is a top 15 player in this draft. He doesn't play a high profile position - but he is dominant. An Ex-wrestler who is always in the right position and with the right leverage. Put him next to Bitonio and Teller and our OL is better than anything in the NFL. If he fell to about 22 - 26 .... whoa, I'd love to get him.
Maybe I should have not have used "re-sign''. How about ''commit''. Are players allowed to commit before cap space is freed up?
They and their agents can agree to anything they want with a team, and even promise they'll do it, and so can a team for that part, but nothing is set in stone until papers are signed on a contract. So, even if we have an agreement, it's only an agreement in good faith and either side could back out at any time.
I think we're in no hurry because Clowney is in no hurry. I'm thinking that he's just enjoying his offseason in Miami or wherever and waiting to see what comes to him. The market has been dry for a month, now, and nothing is going to move until after tonight, at least. Teams that are desperate for a DE and don't get one tonight may be giving his agent a call before midnight.... or, maybe he does want to be here and is just waiting for us to be ready to sign him. Or, maybe we're waiting to see if a particular player or two falls to us, and if no, then he's our man?
I still think he ends up back here one way or another. If we get him back and grab a decent DT, this defense is loads better.
We have plenty of cap space to sign basically anybody at this point. There is no reason to wait. My guess is that Clowney wants a multi year deal but there is no market for that. I don’t think Clowney is affecting the draft planning one way or another.
We have plenty of cap space to sign basically anybody at this point. There is no reason to wait. My guess is that Clowney wants a multi year deal but there is no market for that. I don’t think Clowney is affecting the draft planning one way or another.
I take it you saw Skyy’s name. lol never mind. I just read the prediction thread. I hope you are right.
I like both of those guys a lot. I kinda doubt either will be available at 44.
Love the options for the Browns.
Berry can go a lot of different ways.
That is a good thing.
Thank you mgh888
You are the first to give me any kind of feedback on Sam Williams although it was some other's list and opinion. Anyone see tape on this kid with their own evaluation???
I was impressed and he was on a team with not much help so that he was double teamed a lot.
Vers as it turned out I might be related to this kid (that you don't like) Karlaftis. I have relatives that have been in Athens since well a long time. Spell the last name differently in ancient Greek it means ship corker...lol I'm not use to seeing a fellow American of Greek descent playing sports. We are great chefs though...lol 