I'm starting this thread because I wanted to post on this forum how I think that, Braxton Miller will be a better WR than Will Fuller. But I couldn't find a Braxton Miller thread on the first page, so I just made this thread instead. Anyone else have some crazy, pie-in-the-sky predictions that they want to proclaim? Think of it this way, if you're right, you can post a link to your prediction here and we all have to bow to admire your intellect or something.

So, Braxton Miller will be the #2 WR and Will Fuller might play his way out of the slot.

Any others?

I predict Myles Jack will light it up and Ogbah will be a bust.

It will haunt us for years

I'll go opposite you on Jack. I'll predict that he is out of the league in 5 years because of the knee.

The bad thing is that this forum will be long gone by the time we have the answers. The other bad thing is that people get mad if you bring up who was right and who was not. Wait, maybe that is a good thing.

I predict Zeke will win rookie of the year.

Arik Armstead and Deforest Buckner will team up to be a to give SF a solid d-line.

Clara Peller (Where's the beef?) could win ROY running behind that Oline...

Johnny Manziel will be out of the league for two years or so, and come back to lead the Jets to a Super Bowl...(well, you asked and I foretold).

That's a no brainer, as long as he doesn't get hurt.

I kind of feel that Jack was overrated. He has a ton of speed, and potential as a cover LB, but I felt that he had more willingness to attack the LOS when he played RB than he did as a LB. Don't get me wrong, I think that he'll be a good to very good cover LB, but not the all around amazing LB some think he'll be.

Does that mean I am not allowed to predict it?

Okay............I'll make another one. Other rookies will play well while Browns fans will be saying "it takes three years in order to judge a draft class."

That might be a bigger no-brainer.

It wasn't an insult. It was just a statement that he is in the perfect place for his talent to really shine. He goes to a team with a great run blocking OL, and a great QB who will make sure that teams cannot stack the line against them. I think that Elliot might be more talented than DeMarco Murray, and like him, Elliot doesn't have to come off the field, ever.

I think that he is a sure fire top contender for NFC offensive rookie of the year.

I didn't take it as an insult. It's cool, YTown.

Who do you think will be defensive rookie of the year?

Mackenzie Alexander will be the highest graded of the top CBs

Myles Jack.

His career ending knee surgery won't happen till 2017.

Man, I hate picking 2 guys so near the top of the draft, but I think that this draft has a lot of defensive players who could grab the award, but I am going to go with another high draft pick ....

I am not sure which one though.

I love the fit for Ramsey in Jacksonville. I think that he is a hugely talented kid, and he is one of my top 2 contenders.

I like 2 other defenders in this draft a lot, but I wonder whether their teams can win enough to justify them winning such an award. One if Deforest Bunkner in Frisco, and the other is our very own Emmanuel Ogbah. I think that both guys will have huge impacts on their respective defenses, but I question whether the rest of their teams are ready to win enough games to get people to vote for them, even in an individual category.

So, I am going to go with Ramsey. I think that he is in the right situation, on a team that is ready to take some big steps forward this year. They made sme nice additions on defense, and they should get back Marks, who was a big part of their pass rush in 2014. They also added our former FS to their defense, along with others who will improve that defense a great deal.

I do think that Ogbah is going to be a force this year, though. He'll be one of the runners up.

Good post.

I am going this way:

--Bosa is my favorite. A pass rusher is going to garner a lot more attention than a corner. Bosa was underrated by many people on this board. They wanted us to pass on him at 8. LOL

--Ramsey would be my next choice. It's tough for a corner to win this award, but this guy might get moved around and might be put into position to make a lot of plays.

--My sleeper is Noah Spence. No pass rusher in the draft is better at rushing the passer than Spence.

Two more sleepers who won't win, but will get some consideration: Rankins for the Saints and Nkemdiche for Arizona.

Both guys appear to be excellent fits with their teams.

I am going to go Homer again with my sleeper pick, and say Carl Nassib. The guy led the nation in sacks last year, and had at least 1 sack in every game, so he didn't just load up against weaker opposition.

I really like our draft. I think that we got some real talent.

I would like to see this 5-man line at least once to see what happens.

Kruger-Nassib-Cooper-Bryant-Ogbah

Purely my gut talking here but I predict that this Browns draft will be the best we've had in years. I also predict that things begin to change with this new regime.

We will lose badly this year, but the next draft and next season we will start to see the dividends.

Corey Coleman will have 70 receptions 1000 yards

Ogbah will have 7 sacks & 15 hurries 10 QB hits

Nassib will have 3 sacks & 10 hurries 5 QB hits

Shon Coleman will start 11 games at RT

Joe Shobert will start 6 games at ILB 55 tackles 3 sacks

Ricardo Louis will have 30 receptions and 17 ypc

Payton+Higgin together will have 50 receptions

I think he will too. Behind that Dallas line only an injury might keep him from it....

Schobert starts the year at ILB beside Kirksey.
Scooby Wright not only makes the team but plays snaps on defense as well as special teams.

Scooby Wright ends up ILB starter opposite of Davis...defense takes a big step up. TE GB has another great year, O-line will be top 15 (at some point have to predict over the top). the Crow has a break out year. With Gary B. having another great year, Cory WR will benefit and have a good rookie showing.

anywho my predictions...

I predict that baring injury, all 14 dtaft picks will make the team.

Of the 11 UDFA's
Matthews
Craddock
Skov
Stample

Will all also make the 53 man roster. (Alexander, Howard and Dennis will make the PS).

Gilbert wil be waived and clear waivers, without being claimed.

RG3 will miss 4-6 weeks due to injury. (No I don't wish it on him).

I think (hope) Ricardo Lewis becomes a starter for the Browns.

Hope I'm wrong on this one, but I also think Emmanuel Ogbah will be a bust.

I think Zeke is consensus to win ROY. I expect him to rush for 1300 yards.

I think Coleman and Coleman could start every game. Corey to get 10 TDs and 800 yards. Shon to struggle for a while in pass protection but to learn fast.

Ogbah and nassib to get somewhere like 8-10 sacks between them.

I expect Kessler to shine in preseason against other teams 3rd stringers! But to stay on the bench behind RG3 and McCown all year.

I expect to see Duke catch 45+ catches his year.

as someone else said, hoping and predicting this will be the most solid draft for years and years.

By week 4 Shon Coleman is the starting RT.

Crowell rushes for +1,000 yards

Duke has +900 yards, receiving.

Browns defense is top 20 by season's end.

Robert Griffin is "Comeback player of the year"

That would be huge!

j/c...
RB's are the one rookie position that provides impact day one. Zeke is the best RB coming into the NFL that is probably a prediction by Vers that will be true...only injury will prevent it.

D - Rookie, wow, this was a very deep defensive class. So many out there. All depends who gets the opportunity. On the Browns I don't see Ogbah starting right away, you have Kruger, Mingo and Orchard ahead on the depth chart. I can see Nassib getting the opportunity although 3-4 DE is not a big statistical position.

For the Browns on a whole, post draft prediction.
I predict the NFL, our Divisional Rivals & many fans will be surprised at the competitive level that we will play and for a change win a lot of those close games due to some depth!

We lost too many games that we had leads going into the 4th quarter...This is where our Rookies come in. A boost to our pass rush.

To major keys to our teams success.
1. RG3 as was mentioned having a great comeback season.
2. The transformation of Shelton to an NFL star...he is determined, he has worked hard lost a lot of FAT gained a lot of Muscle. Mentally will be comfortable and a very good student. If he can push that pocket belly back or bring pressure from the middle, so so key.

jmho both will produce ergo my claim of so many will be surprised!

Talent only gets you so far, the way the teams use that talent, the position they put them in to succeed all can mean as much as talent.

With that said, yeah, Offensive Rookie is gonna be Zeke. Defensive rookie, man I just don't have any idea. Lots of good ones to choose from.

Well there is a benefit to being a rookie that gets plugged into an established system with quality players around you... but yes, it sure would be nice for one or two of the Browns top picks to start strong and turn some heads.. instead of some stomachs, like they have in the past.

Zero chance of this.

I think he's referring specifically to the 2016 Draft Forum (and not DT in general) which will be archived but not active. I'm not sure if everyone knows how to search the archives.

Ahh, I misinterpreted.

And yes, beginning with last season, all of this will be moved to an archive forum for the 2016 season, just as every GameDay board will.

Since the team uses analytics and we are making predictions, I thought this would be interesting to add. The entire article is here.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/prishe/2015/...n/#4cc1162128ea

1) Correlation between Draft Position and “Starter Status”

Using Pro Football Reference as a resource, I looked at all players who were classified as starters at the beginning of the 2014 season to determine what round they were drafted in upon entering the league. Of the 595 players designated as such, the results reveal the following:

Round...Freq....Percent.Cuml
1.......178.....29.9....29.9
2.......104.....17.5....47.4
3.......75......12.6....60.0
4.......64......10.8....70.8
5.......38......6.4.....77.2
6.......29......4.9.....82.0
7.......25......4.2.....86.2
UDA.....81......13.6....99.8
Supp.....1......0.2.....100.0
Total...595.....100

- Nearly 30% of all starters were 1st round draft picks when drafted into the league;

- Roughly 30% were taken in either the 2nd or 3rd round;

- Roughly 26% were taken in either rounds 4 through 7;

- Undrafted players (14%) were the 3rd most likely group to comprise 2014’s starters…only behind 1st round (30%) and 2nd round (18%) picks.

2) Correlation between Draft Position and Staying Power

Given that the average career length is only 3.3 years, this begs the question of how much more likely are higher draft picks to stick around the league longer than later draft picks.

For simplicity, and with more time I would like to build a larger sample size, I looked at all players drafted in the 2010 draft, and gauged what percentage of games over those five years (a max of 80 games) have players started. The sample size here of 210 players produced these results:

Percentage of Total Games Started
(Since 2010…80 games max)
Groups Median
Overall.15.0%
1st.....67.5%
2nd.....33.8%
3rd.....36.3%
4th.....6.3%
5th.....4.4%
6th.....1.9%
7th.....0.0%

- The overall median “percentage of games started” by those players selected in the 2010 NFL Draft is 15%;

- 1st round draftees from that season started a higher median percentage of games (67.5%) compared to players drafted in other rounds;

- 2nd and 3rd round draftees from 2010 have started roughly 34% and 36% of all possible games, respectively.

- The median percentage of games started for players drafted in rounds 4 through 7 from the 2010 draft was extremely low, never rising above 7% of games played over the last 5 years.

- 48.5% were first round draft picks when they entered the league;

- 2nd round picks were the next most likely to reach All-Pro status (14%);

- But then undrafted players were the third most likely at 10.5%;

- Lastly, 21% of All-Pros from this period came from either the 3rd, 4th, or 5th round.

In sum, the expectation that first-round picks are more likely to start, succeed, and have staying power is confirmed.

However, with 40% of 2014′s starters and 38% of All-Pros from 2012 through 2014 coming after the 2nd round (with 14% and 10% of these being undrafted players), this shows there’s value deep into the draft.


Okay first let me just say take this guys math with a grain of salt because he has an incredibly small sample size. (Especially with the math that he uses in the second part of this)

Next he doesn't mention how contract guarantees for 1st round picks would affect their staying power. A team just isn't going to cut a player with fully guaranteed money easily.

That being said, I want to use those numbers to show how the Browns improved their odds and what those odds predict.

First an assumption has to made that the Browns scouted players at a level that was equal to the average of the other NFL teams and that is a big assumption for the Browns. These odds would hold if that were the case but the odds go up or down depending on how we scouted.

You will see however that if we compare our odds with the trades that we made vs our odds if we didn't make any trades. The trades did improve our chances.

1 15 Corey Coleman
Since we did not acquire any extra first rounders this year the odds stay the same. We did however improve our odds for next year with and extra 1st rounder.

Odds of a starter: 29.9%
Most likely # games started: 54

2 32 Emmanuel Ogbah

Again we didn't improve our odds, but we did for the future.

Odds of a starter: 17.5%
Most likely # games started: 27

3 65 Carl Nassib
76 Shon Coleman
93 Cody Kessler

This is where it gets interesting because we have increased our chances.

Odds of a starter: 28.8%
Most likely # games started:87

Our odds of at least 1 starter in the 3rd round is now pretty close to what our odds are in the 1st round. Our expected amount of games started however is much higher because of the multiple players.

4 99 Joe Schobert
114 Ricardo Louis
129 Derrick Kindred
138^ Seth DeValve

Odds of a starter: 30.7%
Most likely # games started:20

Because we now have 4 chances, our odds of a starter here are now even greater than the first round. Our games started expectation is lower though at 20

5 154 Jordan Payton
168 Spencer Drango
172^ Rashard Higgins
173^ Trey Caldwell

Odds of a starter: 21%
Most likely # games started:14

Our odds of a starter here are greater than our odds with 1 2nd round pick.

7 250 Scooby Wright III

Odds of a starter: 4.2%
Most likely # games started:0

This points out the flaws of a low sample size. There are starters out there that were drafted in the 7th round so the expected games started should not be zero.

UDFA's

We have a total of 11 right now, but that can change.

Odds of a starter: 34.7%
Most likely # games started: Not included in study.

Again our odds are better here than 1 pick in the 1st round because of the number of chances.

Again do not put too much weight in the numbers because of the small sample size.

This was just an attempt to illustrate how our trade choices improved our odds. I used this particular article because it had the numbers that I needed for the illustration. I would expect these numbers to be off because of the small sample size, but the percentage that our odds increased should be exactly right. Math is still math.

Also given the state of our roster, I expect the odds of our draft choices becoming a starter to be even greater, but that has more to do with opportunity than talent.

As for next year in the first round our odds of a starter go from 29.9% to 41.9% simply by having 2 picks instead of 1.

Just throwing this out there for the wolves to pounce on it.

An interesting thing to look at might be how many pro bowl players are drafted from each round

The author alluded to this at the end, but I wouldn't trust the numbers without a much larger sample.

If I can find a better article, I'll look into that.

Maybe the Browns will build a competitive team out of all the draft picks they have traded for:

At the same time Carson Wentz will prove to be a franchise quarterback.

Or fail horribly due to the moronic nature of the Eagles.

The biggest thing to remember with all of this because you are dealing with individual persons, not clones:

Correlation does not equal Causation.
Thus, stats like these really only give a historical average of what others have done, but it still gives no reliable indicator at all of what others will do. It projects nothing.

The odds should play out for the NFL as a whole.
How much of an outlier that we are could be very good or very bad depending on our front office.

Making predictions can be fun. I enjoyed reading all the predictions.

-Cody Kessler starts at least 1 game for the Browns in 2016
-The Browns have more sacks than 24 other teams in the NFL
-Josh McCown is not on the 53 man roster Week #1
-Crowell has more yards rushing than Zeke Elliot
-A Cleveland rookie receiver leads the rookies in receptions
-Co Co has more TD's than any other 2016 1st Round receiver
-Hue Jackson has better time management than any Cleveland Browns HC in 10 years
-The Browns do not draft a QB in the 1st Round of the 2017 Draft.
-Joe Haden has another significant injury and misses more than 3 games
-The Browns have more come from behind wins in 2016 than 4th Quarter losses in 2016


Just a few predictions to mull over. Enjoy fellows.

Voleur

I predict that the Browns are going to look disjointed to start the year, kind of like a team with a new starting QB, playing under a new coaching staff, and with an unusual number of rookies and second year players at key positions. As the season progresses, and the team begins to come together, there will be improvement. I think we will probably win 4 or fewer games, but most of those will come at the end of the season.

Corey Coleman will look good at times, lost at others, but will prove to be a true weapon. Payton will be an effective possession type but not the quick strike threat. I can't predict Louis or Higgins.

Ogbah will take time to adjust to NFL talent level, but will work hard and be one of the primary sources of improvement as the season progresses. Nassib will be used in passing situations and get some sacks.

Shon Coleman will mirror Schwartz's first season. Like Schwartz, his second season will show much improvement.

Irving will struggle at first, but by season's end will be a competent center.

Griffin will never return to his rookie form, but will prove to be a better than league average starting QB, with is much better than we are accustomed to.

After typing this I started to think that looking back at all pro is better than the pro bowl. Seems half the NFL gets in the pro bowl game because the top choices turn it down.

Teetering on a scale...I am one who believes both plans will come through. Which is what good trades should be. Wentz more than likely will become a Franchise QB...if they play him right away it could ruin him. We got 14 solid picks in our draft and bolstered the team in needed areas. All 14 have a good shot at making the team. A solid foundation of the new regime the class of 2016 and the bonus is 4 quality IMPACT picks to follow up in 2017 we won't need the NUMBERS but instead we will add 4 Impact picks.

A very good plan well executed...of course we have to see the football success! But I think our plan has an equal or higher % of execution than the Eagles.

jmho

Sometime in 2016 I predict the Browns FO will realize once and for all they must take one of to top QB selections in the draft if the want that elusive franchise QB.

Maybe we just did take one of the top QB selections in this draft.

Maybe.

The Browns have a lot of players to evaluate this year and they can't keep them all. Many of the players that we cut or put on the PS will end up on other teams, so I'm hoping during the evaluation frenzy we don't loose the diamonds and keep the coal.

Why? We want to get younger, and this season is the perfect year to play and evaluate a lot of young players.

What good does it do to play 30 year old Paul Kruger, for instance, when this team is at least 3 years away? Same thing with players I really like, such as Des Bryant and John Greco?

This is the perfect year to play a whole lot of youngsters, and let them grow together.

Kind of why it makes sense to listen to trade offers for Joe come mid-season.

It helps Joe at this point in his career, and it probably helps us in a few years.

That is unless we actually start to win sooner. Receivers can impact the game sooner then many positions. We have a young, vet QB who has a chip on his shoulder. Who is to say they don't start opening things up, then the running game happens. I just don't see this as a sure fire doom and gloom on the season.

LOL you are suggesting sending privates into battle without their NCO's and officers?

What I am suggesting is there is little sense keeping a 30+ year old player over a newly drafted player if your goal is to be competitive in 2-3 years. Those 30+ year old players are not going to be able to help you when you become a competitive team, and in fact, you may even create additional holes that could have been filled by a drafted player.

The coaches coach. They develop players.

Now, I get that if our goal is to win as many games as possible this year, at the expense of developing players, then we should start these older players. Sure we cut, and may lose many players who we hoped to put on the practice squad, but if we are in the "win now" mindset, then that is an acceptable loss.

However, we are not there right now. Younger players must supplant older ones if our goal is to win consistently in 3 years. That is why we have already let so many older players go. It's a process that is not at its end.

I guess it depends on the player, but veterans control the locket room, also Kruger was a big help to Orchard last season. I would call him a bridge player this season and who knows after that. If Ogbah progresses at a rapid rate then I could see us leting him walk.
Jmo.

IMO he's a long way off. He's one player I really didn't want. Hopefully I'm wrong

I agree I think Ogbah has a chance to be that one player people will point too when they want to be critical of analytics... like you I hope I am wrong.

I just wanted to say that I read this quote out of context..



...and thought we were talking about getting Comp picks for the guys we just drafted already..

j/c...

I just don't get this need to trade JOE THOMAS. He is our Star...he has a good 3-5 years of Prime play left in him.

Greco...5 years of good prime play in him.

Kruger I sort of get - in the case that we will not look to sign him when his contract is up.

First OL? what additions. We did not invest high this year. Last years investment is our starting Center. This year we made one investment to be vying for the RT job. 3/5th of our OL will be very young...I don't understand your claim of ridding the other 2 to play just who!

How are we to develop a rookie QB or help a talented young QB to find himself and make a comeback by getting rid of TWO GOOD/GREAT Starters and play just WHO?

Why have you taken the tude that this season is over all ready and why play to win???

Why did you not state Get rid of Hartline and Hawkins...and let those youths play...heck sell off Barnidge as he is a 30 guy...with him at a high point?

Nah...only the OLINE that has to do with controlling the LOS. That has to do with giving all these young Impact players the OPPORTUNITY TO SUCCEED...Why cause they don't have the glory and stats???

We got rid of old talent that we just do not want to have here. Bowe, Whittner, Dansby why must it be ALL of those in that bracket.

I'm just confused. Sorry but this regime, FO and Coaching staff alike. Are looking to win in 2016. What are we the freaking French...just surrendering when the war didn't even start?

Where's Blutowski?

I get that. But we still won't keep them all. My point was...I sure hope they get the evaluation process's right and the FO doesn't just keep players on potential or a gut feeling because it was their guy in this draft.

The German's bombed Pear Harbor?

Hawkins will be 30 this year. He was injured most of last season, including 2 concussions, which has to be a concern when combined with age and size. He averaged only 10.2 yards on 27 catches, (the worst average of his career) and had no TD last year. He considered retirement this past off-season.

I love the guy's heart, but there are some major concerns here. The Browns drafted guys who seem to be specifically intended to replace him. I do not see him making the final roster.

Forget it, he's on a roll.

Simply a history revisionist. We, here at DT, know what that's all about...

Victor Ochi and Jeremy Cash will be the most successful UDFA in the class.

Tracy Howard will be our top UDFA.

Jacksonville had easily the best draft in the NFL, particularly for their scheme and needs.

Coleman will be fine, but we will regret passing on Treadwell.

Kindred over KJ Dillon will be regrettable, as well.

Schobert will play (defense) exclusively inside by the time the season rolls around.

Philadelphia's 1st round pick will be in the top 3 next year, as will San Francisco's.

Three years from now Jared Goff, Cardale Jones, Brandon Allen, and Brandon Doughty will be the only QBs from this draft starting for the teams that drafted them.

The Denver Broncos' draft will be considered a disaster. Miami's will be sneaky-bad, as they selected zero front-7 players and have a whole bunch of old or bad guys in that group with huge contract numbers. Pittsburgh is right there with them.

While the Ravens got some major steals in Henry and Dixon in the 4th, the Vikings have the biggest trio of mega value picks in Treadwell (23), Alexander (54), and Kearse (244).

Devin Lucien will be one of the 6 best WRs from this draft, despite being taken in the seventh round.

Even if he ends up not being a starter this season, Robert Nkemdiche will be the best player in this draft class.

'Cause when the goin' gets tough......................(Pause trying to remember)..............................................................................(oh yeah).......................the tough get goin'!

There is something to be said for having some semblance of veteran leadership on the field, in the locker room, etc. I'm all for developing the youth but without some veteran presence, they could just be developing and reinforcing bad habits.

Some coaches would agree with you, but others say, "coaches coach and players play."

I suspect that Hue falls more towards the latter than the former.

I dislike the term "Bridge" player. A bridge player makes it easy for another player to get to the starting lineup. I infer that a "bridge" player is contradictory to the idea of competition.

I liked the idea of keeping the O-Line veterans on staff. If they are beaten out by a rookie, all the better. I liked the idea of replacing the veteran oft injured receivers. You drafted receivers. You do not need them all to be better than the Hawkins and Hartline. You only need the production to be better as a group. If you want to keep one veteran receiver, I can see possibly keeping one but not all of them.

Paul "Bridge" Kruger, he is only waiting to be beaten out for a OLB spot. His production in the past is not going to keep his roster spot. I do not see him beating 4 other OLB's out for a roster spot.

I am not certain about the DB situation for the Browns. I cannot see Tramon Williams beating another player for a CB spot if the team carries only 5 CB. If the team feels either of the safeties can also be a cover safety, I do not see a 6th CB being kept.

I see no purpose to having Josh McCown on the roster. He fills no role if you believe in competition. If Josh McCown starts for the Browns in 2016, the season is in trouble and winning games is the least of the teams worries. If winning is unlikely under McCown, why not use Kessler or even Davis? I have heard the "bridge" term used with McCown and good in the locker room. Coaching will get the best out of the players. Winning and playing together will create a positive locker room. Josh McCown is only a reminder of a 3 and 13 season.

Well like it or not they will need a bridge to get to the other side of the river until they learn to swim.

It doesn't infer that their is no competition.

The objective is to win games. Right ... So what gives you the best chance today might not be the case tomorrow.

To add to FL's response, it often happens that veteran players help the coaching process. The coach defines what needs to be done, the veteran players demonstrate, or helps the rookie understand how, translating words into action.

Josh McCown > Davis > Kessler

When of the other two can outplay Josh, then you can play them. I don't think that will ever be the case with Davis and the odds aren't the greatest for Kessler.

I hear Coach Jackson say consistently that he wants to change the culture. I cannot see changing the culture by keeping a 1-7, nearly 40 year old, back up QB as a way to change a culture.

I have heard the FO say to not sleep on Kessler. I have heard Coach Jackson say he has seen good things in Kessler. Why not Kessler then as the roster spot taken by McCown.

I agree that the player has to outplay the other players. I agree to a point this is true. I believe that if both players are equal in ability, you keep the younger of the two and see if you can improve his skills and knowledge. You have already peeked with the veteran.

I like the point of having veterans demonstrate how to do things. However, we know what McCown has as a skill set. Do we want a potential rookie to take on the characteristics of a perennial losing backup QB? I think the work ethic aspects would be better served by Joe Thomas and perhaps Joe Haden. The how to do things I leave to the coaching staff. I think it is how you change a culture more so than keeping the some of the same players and trying to fit them into a new culture. As for McCown, no matter how you slice it... you have a 2-17 QB in his last 2 seasons as a starting QB. I hate that culture.

Just for the record we have 74 veterans on our roster.
We have 38 veterans with 3 or more experience. The majority of those will probably remain on the team.

When we come down to 53 I think we will have more rookies on the team then ever before but we should have more veterans of over 3 years experience on the team for leadership.

Position: RB...is a young position we do have Crowell with 3 years of experience.
QB: McCown w/14 years
WR: We have Hartline w/8 n Hawkins w/6 years experience.
TE: We have Barnidge w/9
OL: We have Bitonio in w/3 Greco w/9 and JT w/10

Safety:Rahim Moore w/6 years
CB: Tremon Williams w/10 and Haden w/7
LB: ILB Davis 5/years, OLB Kruger w/8
DL: Desmond Bryant w/8 and Hughes with 5.

Every tier has veterans...most will be on our team.

Claimer: the numbers stated might be this season w/experience although the rookies from last year have 2.
What confuses me is those who show 1 and its different from R shown for rookies??? If this is their first year maybe these are Rookies from last year who did not accrue a season regarding the NFL?

In any case. What I claim to be 3 year vets are going into their 3rd year. And so on and so on.

But hopefully that does not change my point of having a good representation of veterans down the line for the youngsters to get help.

jmho

Roster:
http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/roster.html

Pretty sure RG3 will be the starter. Pretty sure McCown will be the backup. Pretty sure Kessler will be the #3.

If this HC wishes to have the strongest QB rotation that exists with the current roster while working with the rookie, this is the most logical depth chart.

That would be my guess as well. RG3 better not coast into this though because I'm pretty sure Hue was serious when he said that he had to earn the starting job.

I still have a hard time seeing a 39 year old backup taking the place of a younger player who may develop and improve.

Also, what if Hue goes with only 2 QBs? (and I believe that the Bengals did so last year, at least until Dalton was injured)

He will not be pushing Kessler from the roster, so which younger player who may develop are you thinking about?

IMO, what we've seen of Davis and Shaw are what they are. Neither one really improves us by being on the roster.

Like I said .... the Bengals kept 2 QB until Dalton got hurt. Then they brought a kid up from their practice squad to back up McCarron.

I see no need for us to keep 3 QB when we can keep RG3 and Kessler, along with a young QBs on the practice squad. That allows us to keep an extra young player elsewhere.

I believe that in our case, there are certain factors that need to be accounted for.

RG3 has an injury history to consider. When taking that into account, you don't have the stability from a health aspect that you had going into last year with Dalton.

We have had a need to go with our third QB on a fairly regular basis.

This FO and coaching staff had no part of signing any of the young QB's currently on the depth chart with the exception of the rookie.

So I'm not saying you are wrong, but the health and stability of Dalton going into last season is not the same position we are in now.

I see a huge need to keep 3 QB's active. Pretty sure Huge see's the same thing. We don't have a clear cut starter. And RGIII and McCown are injury prone. And the Brown's always get to the 3rd string QB at some point during every season.

Plus RGIII and Kessler need veteran leadership with McCown.

Why does RG3 "need veteran leadership with McCown"?

He is an experienced player, and has had both success and failure. Hue will let him know what he requires from him. If RG3 is, for whatever reason, unable to handle what Hue expects, including leadership, then he won't be here when the season starts.

I suspect that RG3 has seen his mistakes, and is willing to learn from them, and work to improve upon his weaknesses. He seems open to all of the coaching points that Hue has presented him with .... including going to work with Tom House.

I just don't see McCown as being this "guru on the bench". Hue and his coaches are going to be the voice in the ear of the QB. I also think that a young player is more valuable than a 39 year old backup QB. (and I say that with all due respect for the job McCown did last year, especially under difficult circumstances)

As far as needing that 3rd guy because we "always need 3 QB" .... if we need a 3rd QB, then it might as well be a young guy who may have some upside. This team is not going to be a winner this year.

*Edit to add* When this team becomes a consistent winner, a huge piece of that is going to be not needing 3 or more different QBs starting. We won't win consistently until we can keep one guy healthy and under Center week in and week out.

I saw you posted Josh was 39 a couple of times. He is 36. I realize that doesn't change your point.

1) RG3 isn't the sure starter. He's got to learn to throw from the pocket to start and that isn't a sure thing.

2) RG3 gets hurt. A lot.

3) Kessler may eventually improve enough to be a back-up, but he's nowhere close to that yet.

4) Josh is cheap and needed.

Unless they think someone else is far and away better this season and going forward.. There is no reason RG3 won't be the starter..

They can talk about all the competions and "earning the job" they want, you sign RG3 as a low risk high reward STARTER to see if he's got anything at all.. Not to be Josh McCowns backup..

I believe that is the FO's expectation, but let's see how it plays out...

Oooops .... he just seems 39, (Sorry Josh)

I'd probably rearrange ur #1 to #4, or even take it off all together.

What does being a pocket passer have to do with him starting? Hes been a starter in the past, and so have other non "pocket- passers", ie Manziel. Staying healthy is RG3s biggest challenge.

He doesn't have to be a pocket passer, but he has to be able to throw from the pocket. You gave the reason why in your last sentence. If he is out of the pocket for every play week 1, he'll be on the injury report week 2.

I think that is an obvious. RG3 will have to "Lose" the starting job. Hue is making sure he does not get the feeling of entitlement on the starting position which I think he has been humbled already but we wish him to set a competitive fire under his butt and work hard. So far so good but a lot of football to come from this still. 2nd or 3rd preseason game I expect the starter to be named at the latest.

jmho

Must be nice to be such a young fella

My opinion exactly YTown.

We can pick that young player back up once RG3 gets hurt.

imo,... That's a moot point. It's not as much a question of the 53 man roster, as it is about how many you can dress (Active) for a game. Today the rules favor keeping three QB's because even if you only dress two,...you can still bring your 3rd QB in an emergency off of the inactive list.

My personal prefernce is to have Kessler (a rookie) my #3, and two veterans dressed for a game.

I also think that my #3 QB is more valuable to the team, than the 53rd player on the roster, who will not see the field anyway.

More:

Most of the OSU players will have solid careers: Braxton, Zeke, Michael Thomas, Darron Lee, Adolphous Washington and Tyvis Powell will probably do better than their counterparts.

More:

The Jets taking Christian Hackenberg will prove to be the worst pick in the entire draft.

I try to stay out of football discussions anymore but I agree with this.

I think so too.

That was an awful pick.

I predict that one of the browns will win Rookie of the year

For this to be true, the most likely is Corey Coleman...but wouldn't it be great if it were 7th round pick Scooby Wright.

Not sure what you mean?I hope it is friendly

plus 1 excellent analysis
But at the otas they were really excited about the outside linebacker we drafted.

I could see Ogbah getting DROY if he can get the sack numbers up..

Goff will get OROY as long as he isn't terrible..

Ezekiel Elliott?

Maybe...do you know that young back up practice squad player can sign to another team's active roster at any point?

Forgot about him..

Bold Prediction: Elliot doesn't have a "great" rookie season due to being uncomfortable wearing a full length jersey.

This is why I would keep McCown as the #2 QB.

This team is obviously not able to support a rookie quarterback in a way that advances his development. Months have been spent discussing the weaknesses of this roster. If you care at all that Kessler has a chance to become a viable quarterback at some pont, having him one RG3 knee ligament away from starting is not wise.

Creating any situation where he might be forced on to the field too early is a mistake. I think the extra roster spot gained from only having two QBs on the active roster is a good point. Supposedly nobody wants Kessler, he should clear waivers and make it to the practice squad. Bring him up later if needed. Meanwhile he's in the QB room learning how to play NFL QB from Hue Jackson.

I would say there is a 0% chance Kessler makes it through waivers.

Also, it is misnomer to say that nobody wants him. He would have been drafted had we not taken him.

OK, if as you suggests, Kessler has enough value to be signed to another team's active roster, which is what you're suggesting. I don't think it's permissible to acquire him and then stash him on another team's PS. If what I'm saying is accurate then just keep him and McCown. Again, you are keeping McCown as protection from rushing Kessler in as a very young and inexperienced starter. I don't think I really have to say we've done that on a number of occassions. We all know the outcome.

The difference between Kessler and many of our other "projects" (McCoy, Manziel, Weeden, etc.) is that he should at least be able to handle an NFL playbook right away.

If he can lift it.

I've often been able to digest the logic from your post. Just not this time. I am not aware of any evidence, especially at this stage of the off season, that would convince me that Kessler is more advanced than the quaterbacks you mention in terms of mastery of a N?FL playbook. Look, the team overall needs development. Putting Kessler in the precarious position of being the number 2 does not help him or the Browns.

If we believe in the merits of competition then Kessler should not, emerge from camp as the #2.

I think I get what you are saying. Comes from a "pro-like" (my term) offense takes snaps under center, etc. I don't think that prepars him to be one play away from starting.

Kessler played in a Pro Style offense at USC and played four several different coordinators. This leads me to believe he will be better prepared for the pros than the previously mentioned QBs who played in true spread systems. Kessler is also known to be a very smart, hard-working individual. Those traits, when combined with his playing experience, make me think he can be a #2 QB in the league today.

Laughing, but not at you...I was editing my last post in anticipation of the pro-style offense argument before I saw your most recent post.

Ok, we have a difference of opinion. I understand you argument hopefully you understand mine. I don't see that the Browns' gain a great deal from accelerating Kessler's development. But they risks harm to him and the team by rushing him. You don't share my concern about that risk.

I don't think Kessler is going to develop. He is who he is.

Aaaahhhh, that definitely helps me understand your position.

J/K,

Wow!
I cant believe anyone would suggest keeping only two QB's over the 53rd man on the roster WHO WILL NEVER BE ACTIVE FOR A GAME.

Where is the logic?

There ain't none.

Nothing gained. Period!

Lossed? Well yes your emergency QB and the benifit of time for a rookie to develop.

But hey if you really think that that 53rd man is so ultra important, then by all means carry on with your discussion about keeping said player over a 3rd QB.

Jm 2cents.

I may be missing something..

But the "53rd" man on the roster never plays anyways.. right?

The game day roster is only 45?

Do the 8 Non-GameDay roster guys make up the practice squad? I always thought that was separate..

My point being.. Keep 3 QBs in the 53, just don't have one of them (Kessler) active.. We have Pryor for emergency QB situations.. and heck we haven't even went full Any Given Sunday and lost two QBs in one game.. so..

Ouch. lol

jc

I've seen many people on this board and other places display high praise for Ogbah. Admittedly, I didn't see all of his games and don't know tons about the X's and O's of the game, but I simply did not like the Ogbah pick.

Can someone explain to me why he's been receiving such positive talk

It is separate. How often was Bowe not on the 45 last year? But he definitely was not eligible for the PS. The PS requirements are based on length of time in the league. Anyone can made inactive for a game.

Because the Browns drafted him. LOL

I brought him up before the draft, but I don't think anyone responded, which tells me he wasn't highly thought of on this board BEFORE the draft. Here is a link to tab's pre-draft post about OLBers and DEs. https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1078403/olb-3-4-des#Post1078403 You can see for yourself how people rated these guys.

I think Ogbah has some positives:

--Very strong
--Good bull rusher
--Has a nice rip move
--Played on both left and right side
--Extremely productive. Think he had 12.5 sacks, a bunch of hurries and TFL's
--Great character/hard worker

Concerns:
--Plays too high
--Teams ran right at him
--Got cut a lot
--Did not always use his hands effectively
--One dimensional and one speed pass rusher


Question Mark:
--How effectively can he cover? I don't know the answer to that.

Summary:
I think he'll start by being a situational pass rusher in sub-packages. That's not a bad thing. He will have to add more to his repertoire if he is to become anything more than that.

Jackson was the OC...the decision to keep two QBs was not his duty for a roster decision. Also the circumstances are different. They didn't have a veteran Bridge QB who played in 2015 and did a good job. Plus we have a 3rd round prospect that Hue really likes. 3rd rounders just don't get put on the practice squad. I don't think Shaw can be kept on the practice squad.

The only way we go to 2 QBs is by trading McCown. I think McCown is more valuable than the future 4th or 5th round pick.

jmho

Thanks for the response Vers ... here are the two things I noticed and have heard, which are both very concerning for me

Your emergency QB does not need to be on the 45 man active game time roster.

And from what I've heard, Hue REALLY likes Kessler.. I think if the GM were to let him get taken, Hue would not be happy about it.

Not to worry, his is coming on an iPad Mini.

If we were a playoff team, then McCown would be important to us.

However, we will be lucky to win 4 games this season. Thus, if we were somehow to get a 4th round pick for McCown, (which I find to be extremely unlikely) then we jump all over that trade. It would make zero sense, from a football stand, and from an analytics stand, to do otherwise.

What does it gain this team to throw McCown out there in case of injury to RG3? Nothing. If RG3 were to get hurt, we could allow Kessler to develop on the field instead, and bring up another young QB to get additional practice reps.

I guess I don't see this team as one that will make the playoffs for at least another few years. As such, I see no need to hang on to old players, with only a year or 2 left. What purpose does that really serve?

As far as whether or not Shaw would be eligible, I see nothing in the rules that says he would not be. He has been on the practice squad for 2 seasons, and has 1 game of accrued NFL service. He should be eligible for the practice squad. If you see something different, please share it with me.

It would make far more sense in this case to then keep someone like Shaw as the #2 and let him take the hits and leave Kessler as the 3rd to continue to develop.


Actually, if you take this line of reasoning to its full extent, it then makes sense to just dump McCown and RG3 and roll with Shaw & Whomever as #1 & #2, then have Kessler as the #3. We're not going to win, anyway, so why bother with any of the expensive guys?

Veteran leadership. Who was in the locker room to help RGIII in Washington? Nobody. Who would be in the locker room to help RGIII and Kessler here if they got rid of McCown? Nobody. Yea, we have coaches, coaches only do so much. It really has nothing to do with a playoff run. As you say, we might be a few years away... maybe Kessler is the guy that will lead that and maybe he's not... but if you play him before he's ready, I assure you he won't be the guy.

yeah,... The chance of Kessler being cut are slim to none.

McCown can win games for us right now and perhaps RG3 will turn his career around affording us the luxury to basically red shirt Kessler this season.

So basically you are saying that the least talented qb on the roster has the best chance of making the team......

Kessler is definitely more talented than Shaw and probably Davis.

My bad...........I thought they were talking about keeping only two qbs and the other two were RGIII and McCown.

No! Now your just putting words into my mouth.

I never said that Kessler was the least talented QB on our roster. He is the least experienced.

He is also a 3rd draft pick. If the team didn't think that he could make our roster, then they never would have made the selection when they did.

Further I have seen not one iota of evidence that either Davis or Shaw has what it takes to be even an average starting QB in this League.

I think we are misunderstanding one another.

I believe the fact that Hue took Kessler much earlier than anyone thought he'd go, pretty much locks Kessler into a roster spot. I can't believe we'd risk losing him by putting him on the practice squad.

So there's 1 QB.

Hue also signed off on Griffin in FA. So there's 2 that Hue and this new FO brought in. I see them both as locks on this team.

I'm torn on McCown. IMO his experience and willingness to mentor is huge. He'd be mingling with Griffin & Kessler. That's a good thing.

We talk about both Griffin & McCown being injuries waiting to happen. I don't think Hue is going to play that scared card. But if Griffin goes down in game 3, I really don't think Hue wants Kessler thrown in there that early. Hence why I think Hue goes with Griffin/McCown/Kessler.

The best scenario is Griffin lasts all year and Kessler responds well to sitting on the sidelines soaking up every play and every word out of Hue/Pep and McCown's mouths.

If we're going to be injury bitten yet again at QB, IMO the best hope is Griffin and McCown last at least 6-8 games before having to go with Kessler.

This will be interesting for sure.

You can have all the low expectations you wish - after all you are a fan.

But I can guarantee you there is not ONE NFL COACH...heck add college and HS in there.

it then makes sense to just dump McCown and RG3 and roll with Shaw & Whomever as #1 & #2, then have Kessler as the #3. We're not going to win, anyway, so why bother with any of the expensive guys?

I know it might NOT be your thought process as you stated if you follow that LINE OF REASONING given by Ytown. But there is no Coach or Player on the Browns that would remotely take that attitude. We will do everything possible to win. The Odds that Shaw is on this team is like slim to none.

McCown is one of the few that has great value When NOT PLAYING as he leads - and is important for the QB Room. Also Kessler will improve better/faster with McCown at his side. RG3 could obtain more confidence with McCown at his side. He is worth keeping here. If he is gone then both Kessler and RG3 must have improved more than expected.
Ytown...not every injury to a QB gets him on the IR...sometimes its a game or two situation. Who better than McCown to keep the momentum rolling and us playing with the entire playbook to come in.

jmho - you can have a personal opinion but you have to remember all these coaches and players are playing to win.

Playing to win is the key factor for the Browns. I hate hearing anyone say that it will take years for the Browns to build a competitive, winning team. The Browns had an Offense ranking of 30th at 17.4 points per game. The Browns had a defensive ranking of 29th at 27.0 points per game. Analytics suggest the Browns should have won 4 games and lost 12 last season. They won only 3. If you believe in the coaching staff, the drafted players desire to win, and the fact that the team can not get much worse either offensively or defensively, one has to conclude the team will score more points and let up less points. That statistically leads to more wins.

There are many factors about this up coming season that are intriguing. The Browns play the Eagles in week #1. Will it be the rookie QB Wentz? We also own their 1st round pick in the 2016 draft. We could help our own cause with that game. Not to mention the front office and coaching staff have much to prove against a new coach in Philadelphia.

The Browns have RG3 and we visit the Redskins this season. Another nice little intriguing story line.

The Jets with possibly Geno Smith or a rookie at QB? Who would not like to see our defense show itself against that team.

The Bills and that nightmare with the HC Ryan and his defense killing brother.

The Patriots at home. First week back for Brady. Will he be rusty? Will the Browns defense pass the Brady test?

The Dolphins, another dysfunctional team with a new HC. It is a nice challenge for the Browns.

Throw in the NY Giants and Cowboys for fun. The Giants with a new coach and an old team. The Cowboys, oooh to wish to play the Cowboys with Brandon Weeden as the QB. It could happen.

The Chargers are not a dominant team. They are on the decline. Add the Titans and that young inexperienced team with a new HC. Why not the Browns?

And the AFC North games. Every one of them a must watch game. The Steelers with their 30th Ranked pass defense. The Ravens who the Browns nearly beat twice with Pettine at HC and Oniell at DC. The Bengals games will be a must watch rivalry. Looking forward to the season

If we were doing everything we could to win, we would have done everything possible to maintain continuity, (front office, coaches, and players) while adding a few upper quality free agents, and maximizing the draft. We would have kept quality/useful players, like Schwartz, Benjamin, Bademosi, Gipson, Starks, Hartline, Dansby, and Whitner, and built upon them, instead of tearing the team down to nothing, and restarting from scratch.

This team is in total rebuild mode. Now they are not going to admit that, because they want the fans to keep buying tickets and merchandise, and they won't complain if they happen to win some games, but that is not their main concern right now, They are developing players, and building the team from the ground up, and will not allow veterans to get in the way of that process.

I have to laugh when you talk about the possibility of RG3 being injured, and having a QB "keeping the momentum going". What momentum do you expect this team to have? Seriously. How many games do you expect this team to win this coming season? If we win 5 games, Hue should be coach of the year. This team is going to struggle mightily.

I think back to the Cowboys, and their draft where they landed Aikman, Wisniewski. Daryl Johnston, Stepnoski, and Tolbert, a year after landing Irvin, Norton, and Hennings ....... and proceeded to go 1-15. That was a valuable, though painful, year. It gained experience for a lot of very young players.

Anyway, my point is that that particular Cowboys team did about as well as anyone could imagine them doing in adding top quality players, but it took time for all of the pieces to come together.

They added another Hall of Famer the next draft, in Emmit Smith, along with Jimmie Jones, and got to 7-9.

They then added Maryland, Alvin Harper, Eric Williams, Leon Lett, and Larry Brown ..... and made their big move.

At one point they had a Hall of Fame Head Coach, QB, WR, and RB, and won 7 games.

It takes time to rebuild a team from the ground up.

When a team turns around quickly, they typically have a foundation in place .....and they just need to add pieces to build on what they have. We have pieces, and need to build a foundation.

If this team wins 6 or more games, I will be ecstatic, and thrilled to say that I was wrong. I don't expect either to be the case. I accept that this team is going to be fairly awful, as players need time to develop, learn the schemes, and learn to play together. There will probably be about half of the players who start this season who will need to be replaced down the line.

One other thing I would just mention .....

Remember back to 1999? We started off the season with Ty Detmer. He was, by any definition, the better option if we were mainly concerned about winning games. However, after one blowout loss, we decided that the season was not about trying to win games, but rather about building for the future, and getting experience for young players. Now the team was not going to say "Hey, we're going to lose anyway, so we might as well lose with our young players", but that was the reality of that season. It is the reality of the upcoming season as well.

I will say that I hope that you are right, and that we somehow win a whole bunch of games this year ...... but I just don't see it.

If that's the case...please except my oppology bro.

I keep seeing this, over & over. Were only going to win 3-4 games this year. I know were young and have a new staff, but please. I look at our first 4 games and don't see a loss anywhere. All those teams have the same issues we have or worse. There's no reason we can't start off on a roll.

I think you can do everything in your power to rebuild in the best way possible in preparation for the future.

At the same time, you can do everything in your power to win as much as you can with what you've got.

Huh? Maybe the Eagles, but I don't see what you're talking about with the Ravens, Dolphins, or Washington.

We are going to be terrible. We have a new head coach (and staff), a QB that hasn't played well in three years, and a ton of new starters/rookies. It's going to be a very rough year.

I think the Ravens are going down hill fast. Fin's and Redskins are always in the crapper

Remember we nearly beat the Ravens twice last season and we only won 3 games. The Ravens are in the same boat as the Browns. The biggest difference is that the Browns are searching for a QB and the Ravens mistakenly think they have one.

I will count out the Ravens when I see multiple seasons of suck in a row. They were very injured last year. (Also, we lost to them when Matt Schaub was the starting QB. Oof.)

The Joe Flacco contract is already coming back to haunt them though.

Translation: We lost to them twice, and we have less talent & veterans now than we had last year.

I agree, but disagree. I think that the coaches will do all they can to win with players who will be here when the team turns the corner. I do not believe that they will sacrifice player development for wins, though.

We have eliminated much of the veteran leadership on the team, and cast off many of our better players. We have chosen to go with youth at many positions by eliminating so much of the veteran presence on this team.

Right now, we have 10 players age 28 or older on this roster. Of these, some may not be here when the season starts. (Tramon Williams, Josh McCown, Des Bryant, Andrew Hawkins, Paul Kruger, and Marlon Moore) Of these players, I would venture a guess that half, or more, will be gone when the final roster is set.

The ones I did not mention are Joe Thomas, Andy Lee, John Greco, and Gary Barnidge, all of whom I give a solid chance of making the team, unless they are traded.

So, I believe that this team could well be a 27 and under club by the time all is said and done, with maybe only 5 or 6 players outside of that age range.

This team will be hugely inexperienced. We have only 12 players with 6 or more years of experience right now. As noted, I believe that many of those will be gone when the season opens. This team will be made up, predominantly, of players with 4 years or fewer NFL experience. That is not what a team trying to win right away does.

I really want people to look at this roster. Right now, before we cut another player, we have only 27 players who have played more than 2 seasons. At least half of this team will be made up of players who have played 2 seasons in the NFL, or less. (listed as 3rd year players and below on the roster) At least. I believe that it will be more than that number.


This team is going to be incredibly young. That is the choice and direction the powers that be have chosen. Once they decided not to resign their own free agents, I cannot say that I disagree with this choice, but let's not pretend that they are going all in to win games this year. Player development is the order of the day this year. They will speak of wanting to win every game, but their actions will disprove their words. This year is about building for the future.

I think I misinterpreted your comments as well. My apologies.

The Cowboys, oooh to wish to play the Cowboys with Brandon Weeden as the QB. It could happen. smile

Just an FYI pretty sure Weeden is on the Texans...at least that is where he ended up last year after Cowboys released him.

If we were doing everything we could to win, we would have done everything possible to maintain continuity, (front office, coaches, and players) while adding a few upper quality free agents, and maximizing the draft.

Well that statement is rather irrelevant! It makes no sense. I'm talking about the NEW FO, THE NEW COACHING STAFF...they are going to do every thing they can to win! Short Term as they also build for the long term.

Dansby and Whittner we saw them as players past their prime and not their cup of tee (Staff/FO) Hartline and Starks...again players past their prime and the decision to let them go was very sound. There was not room for either on our roster. Gipson, Benjamin and Bademosi the last two I'm sure wanted to stay here (I think) But we did not wish to over pay for a #3 WR and Horton had Bademosi in 2013 and he got a lot of film on the field of play in 2015...is there any reason why we didn't sign him? Of course...ST we got 14 rookies plus some UDFA...there is pleanty who can step up for a ST honor..its a rookie position.

Which leaves us Schwartz...must we do this dance. We gave him an offer prior to FA and he chose to turn it down...not us. I think the rest in print blaming the Browns was fodder from his Agent who point blank...MESSED UP!

If this team was in "TOTAL REBUILD MODE" We would have traded Joe Thomas.

New Regime including new coaches. we have kept Desmond Bryant, John Hues, Kruger, Trent Williams, Hawkins, McCown, Barnidge, Greco...Total Rebuild mode? Got Younger bigger and faster yes,

Now they are not going to admit that, because they want the fans to keep buying tickets and merchandise, and they won't complain if they happen to win some games, but that is not their main concern right now,

Nice words, don't know how much you've been around football but that is every Coach/Teams concern...Winning. Not their MAIN CONCERN...again not a statement of value.

I have to laugh when you talk about the possibility of RG3 being injured, and having a QB "keeping the momentum going".

Sorry if I choose not to join your pity party.

If RG3 reaches his potential again that is a major happening here and with all the NEW O and NEW D I don't know how long it will take for all to gel...that I know but we have talent on this team. So laugh if I talk football and the thought process of coaches they do not "PLAN" to LOSE!! That is absurd...you talk like a hurt/frustrated fan...fine but to think that is reality sorry.

Laugh...lol laugh at yourself buddy. If we win 5 Hue is coach of the year??? Again just because you have low expectations that 5 wins is amazing...again sorry I won't join your pity party if you don't mind.

You do have a point in history with the Cowboys foundation draft of course a seasoned RG3 might have better results than a Rookie. We have a lot of young players mixed in with these veteran talents that we kept. We have talent on this team, if you wish to state they do not exist so be it.

Its a sorry day when somebody who talks football actually utter these words:

Anyway, my point is that that particular Cowboys team did about as well as anyone could imagine them doing in adding top quality players, but it took time for all of the pieces to come together.

Really 1-15 when will that ever be as well as anyone could imagine them doing??? Just when We will have several rookies in a rotation...DL and OLB...they won't or will start but either way they will get their reps...we know Coleman will get his reps at WR and most likely will be a starter. The only position I'm not sure how it will look will be Safety. But Its not like we are going to have 5+ Rookie starters. That you envision this massive rebuild. Yes I expect many to contribute. But we have depth!

I would love if Shon Coleman won the starting RT position and he will. Young yes but not totally dependant on Rookie starters to think remotely 1-15 is a great expectation...come on Ytown...if I were you I would go delete that part...lol

Just remember we got a lot of talent here.
Haden, Kruger, Davis, Mingo, Orchard, Armonty Bryant, Kwan Williams, Gaines, Desmond Bryant, Shelton, Hughes, Cooper all football players. Its not like the cupboard is bare. Ogbah and Nassib should get into a rotation and increase their reps as the year wheres on.

Oh we have a vet with Amazing talents in RG3 that needs to start over and listen to Hue. We have 4 rookie WRs to bolster a bare WR unit. We a possible stud in Pryor or a bust?

We have a good backfield in Coleman, Crowell and the sleeper in Watson - Hue's first move after being hired.

We have the best LT in the NFL, a very good Bitonio who will still get better. We might have our FB in Malcolm Johnson. Erving who I think will get the job done and surprise many. Greco I think is a stud at RG and RT we might not Equal Schwartz from day one but we should not be too far from him. Not as irreplaceable as some state.

So thanks for the Cowboy lesson, I have no idea what that has to do with the Price of Tea in China?

Different era, different team different draft...that 1989 draft produced 5 starters...two being OL and one being FB. Aikman and Tolbert DE How many of the 5 were starters day one? Can't say. But that is out of the 15 draft picks made.

Am I saying we WILL MAKE THE PLAYOFFS...not my prediction of course I will be rooting for us to do so. But not my expectation...I hope we learn how to finish games...the last 2 seasons under Pettine we were in a lot of games...but just didn't have the character to finish. I know that is the major goal of HUE and his coaching staff. How many wins will that compile? I don't know...but without a major IR situation of tragedy proportions we will not be 1-15 that much I do know.

jmho

We split with them. And were a (not blocked) FG away from sweeping them..

I broke down the age of the team, and it has to be the youngest in the NFL. You mention certain veteran players, and use the fact that they are still here as evidence of something, but just because they are here following OTAs does not mean that they will be here following training camp. It also does not mean that we are not in complete rebuild mode.

Anyway, some of your specific points:



We haven't made it to training camp yet. Don't discount the possibility of something happening down the road. Further, maybe the front office feels that Joe can play for 4-5 more years at a high level of play, and so they will hold on to him. Just because we keep a couple of older players does not mean that we are not in total rebuild mode. Also, just because we have kept a few older players to this point, before training camp has even begun, does not mean that they will still be here when the season begins.



That's not what I said. What I said was that they did about as well as could be expected in adding quality players. (to their roster) Their drafts were magnificent.

In closing, all I can say is this: I hope you are right, and we somehow turn out a winner this season. I don't see it happening, but I would be thrilled to be wrong.

The fact is you make some very valid points. People can scoff and call it negativity all they like.

We are obviously in rebuild mode. It will take three years of very good drafting as well as key FA signings before we are a playoff team at the very least. As of now, we don't have an answer at QB. Actually, more questions than answers at the position.

Our drafts will have to be great and player development will have to be second to none for this to happen. People can label that, degrade that opinion by just being stubborn and single minded all they wish.

The fact is, it needed to be done. Since we still haven't actually committed to a long term QB, those we let go will not be a factor by the time we are ready to make a run. If we actually commit to the QB position for real next year, we will probably be three years away from a shot at the big time. With where we are now, all our ducks will have to fall into a row for this to all unfold.

That's not a pity party, that's reality.

I am curious as to what NFL teams people can think of who have stripped down to the bare bones, and basically rebooted the team.

The Browns have 3 players on the team from draft classes prior to 2012. (Joe Thomas, Joe Haden, John Hughes)

They have 2 players from the 2013 draft, (Mingo and Bryant, who is suspended) and 4 from 2014.

The drafts that should have been our foundation ..... and the players on whom the team should be built are missing. We have a few ..... but not enough.

Now I do think that we have a very promising draft from last year, but how those players play out remains to be seen. However, we have a lot of guys who should be, at the very least, quality depth. Shelton, Erving, Orchard, Duke, Xavier Cooper, Ibraheim Campbell, Gaines, Malcolm Johnson, and Telfer all have some ability, and could potentially start to fill in the foundational blocks of the team. They are extremely young for that role, though.

I used the Cowboys as an example, because it was the best example I could think of where a team completely tore their roster down, and rebuilt it quickly. They did so by virtue of drafting 3 Hall of Fame players in (IIRC) back to back to back drafts, in Irvin, Aikman, and Emmitt Smith. That kind of draft acumen is a huge ask for any front office, but it is what jump started the Cowboys turn-around.

Anyway, what other teams have stripped down to such a young roster, and have rebounded into a winner within a year, or 2, or 3? I am curious as to what teams people can offer as examples?

It took the Bengals many drafts in a row to rebuild their team. They are probably one of the better example of the path we are now on, even though they never hit rock bottom like we did. The Titans are probably on the same path we are on, and they have found their franchise QB. Their rebuild is in year 2, and has been short on wins thus far. The Raiders took the same path we have, and have gone through 4 years of struggles, with some solid drafts in the past few, and yet are only now sniffing a winning record. The Rams took a similar tact, and rebuilt their team through the draft, yet have not yet been able to break through to above .500. The Seahawks did a masterful job of working the draft, and adding top flight players to their roster, yet it took them 3 full off-seasons before they finally broke through. (and they never hit rock bottom like we did)

Anyway, I am curious to hear what examples people can give of teams getting rid of almost all veterans, and then rebounding within a season or 2.

It took the Bengals many drafts in a row to rebuild their team. They are probably one of the better example of the path we are now on, even though they never hit rock bottom like we did.

From 1991 - 2002 the Bengals had records of 2 - 14 once, 3 - 13 four times, a record of 4 - 12 twice, 5 - 11 once, 6 - 10 once, 7 - 11 twice and 8 - 8 once. That is not counting a backslide 4 - 11 - 1 in 2008 and 4 - 12 in 2010. I would say that the Bengals hit rock bottom every bit as badly as the Browns have, perhaps even worse considering they have been in the NFL full time since before the AFL/NFL merger, where the Browns, as we know them today, have only existed since 1999.

I really have no idea what you are trying to prove w/that bit of information.

I think YTown's point would be supported or debated more by looking at what the Bengals have done in the last several years, rather than from the years 1991--2002. LOL

The statement was that the Bengals were never as low as the Browns.. my point was yes.. they were.. and yes.. they did pull out of it

Browns are in SERIOUS rebuild mode ... can't remember a team who was this adamant about getting younger/newer at such an accelerated rate

Again...there is not one coach and player out there who is going through this season not to win...you are 100% wrong about that.

Yes ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE DOWN THE ROAD...but you present it as a Basis of your opinion just because its possible.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT WE MAKE IT TO THE SUPER BOWL...but I don't go around claiming that.

But when I bring a key veteran presence which IS A FACT...you think you knock that out of the loop by saying...aha FOR NOW...lol as if you just made a point.

Later Ytown. For all our sakes...lets hope this is the Regime that sticks. Also I would like to point out...CHUD was led to believe he was playing for the long term - that 2nd half of the season...he asked for a FB so they can depend on the running game some more...and didn't get the support...Coach and players wanted to win.

Still it seemed he was given the impression that all was ok cause they were playing for the LONG TERM...result. HE GOT FIRED.

I doubt the FO of this regime is looking to only the long term and don't feel winning is important. But I can guarantee you every Coach every player is doing this to WIN!

emjoy

No doubt EO, and I think we win a heck of a lot more game then most people think.

I agree EO, ... We have a new Coaching staff and many new faces, but to a man,... None will be willing to simply roll over and play dead (that is give up).

The thought is so counter productive to starting a new culture.

Only winning will change the culture.

Wether we win or not ... a Hue Jackson coached team will play to win.

The only prediction I have is I think Terelle Pryor will make the Sept final cutdown day 53 man roster.

I Wonder if Robert Griffin the Third; "RGIII", is good enough to compete for the division.

Terrelle Pryor will have more reception then Braxton Miller

Corey Coleman will lead all NFL WRs in receptions

Bold, very bold...

You got money. Wanna bet?

I think a a more modest goal for this team is to win more games than the Eagles. Have our first draft pick next season be the one acquired via trade and not dubiously earned on the field.

Scooby Wright becomes our new Bam Bam Ambrose and is in the running for DROY. He will be considered the steal of the draft.

Lol, that's actually a mistake. I meant to type all NFL Rookie WRs in receptions. But that's still bold right?

I'm very excited about both our LB prospects. I remember watching Joe Shobert last year. He looked pretty good to me from Wisconsin (although I wasn't looking at him as an NFL prospect, more just watching him play). I think Tank Carder is going to have a tough time making the team this year.......

I mean, I don't watch Wisconsin football much, and it's often harder for me to keep up with the college players, but that was a name I recognized as soon as we drafted him

I think Carder can make it, but I do think that is only if a guy like Wright makes it outright as a backer.

Carder has carved out a pretty nice career as a ST guy. He is now in year 4 or 5...the point special team guys start getting replaced by other special team guys who are younger and offer more upside potential..

Numbers-wise, I imagine there will be two spots divided between Wright, Schobert, and Carder. Christian Kirks and Davis are locks. I just don't see it happening for Carder..........

Like I said, Wright has to make it as a ILB on it's own for Carder to stick.

did I read where Schobert is going to play both OLB and ILB?

Maybe Mingo is in jeopardy

I misunderstood what you meant earlier. Yeah, I don't see that happening. Wright or Schobert will be backup ILBs, and I think at least one of them will play special teams, essentially taking Carder's spot.

They're similar to Carder. "High motor" guys. Except Carder is going into his fourth season, they're going into their first. I think Carder will have to show a lot to make it on this team.

The best thing he's got going for him though is that he's played for Teflon Tabor. Although, he probably played for Horton too, at least for a few weeks. But he was a backup, probably practice squad player.



I could see that. Depending on the down and situation. But I think we'll mostly see him as an ILB for us

Way to go Bet against your own team...I know you are a fan...but man that just is not in my book.

Depends on your definition of "heck of a lot more"

4 or 5? A 10 win team won "a heck of a lot more" games than a 5-6 win team.. right?

Well.. some think we will win between 0-1 games this year..

I think we'll find our average of 4-5 at worst.. which in turn, would be a "heck of a lot more" than 0..

Oof.