DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Buccaneers 30 Post Game Thoughts

j/c:

I think I'm done with Kruger. Just plug in Ogbah and don't look back. And if Orchard fails on the other side this year, then you know you need to address the OLB in the draft or something. I doubt Kruger will be here next year so trade/cut him.

This is my hot take from the game.

I saw: Poor performance, poor execution, horrendous discipline. A seriously pissed off Hue Jackson.

I hope: that the team was playing a very very limited offense, not wanting to give anything away to the Eagles Week 1.... that Tampa's DL is the best in the NFL (I know its not)..... that Mike Evans is the best WR in the NFL (He is very good, but not the best).... Hoping that Horton is saving a genius D scheme for the regular season (I know he's not).

To your first point, I disagree. I thought it held up alright last night. Now, it's not as good with Mack and Schwartz gone but I felt like they all did ok.

Definitely agree about safety. I'm worried about that group. And regarding the LBs, I think Kirksey did well but that's about it. Orchard had a near sack but Davis and Kruger seemed to be invisible. As I said in another post, I think I'm done with Kruger. I hope I'm wrong because we need a pass rush.

Twitter Vid Link

...is that legal?

Agreed we looked worrisome. A lot of work still to do before the season opener. Defense is an obvious concern but The O-Line performance last night worries me the most as Griffin can't take 5 sacks a game nor can McCown. Penalties too were ridiculous last night. Some very petty calls others just plain undisciplined play.

I'm not ready to cry that the sky is falling and that we will be worse than last year. This is still preseason and the Lions 2008 season should tell us that preseason success or lack of success doesn't always translate to the regular season.

Still, we have a lot to clean up and address over these next two weeks.

Great post....totally agree

Is Orchard considered undersized for his position? Just from the naked eye he seems very small

Did anybody see Shelton do anything positive?

He forced a fumble, and did collapse the pocket a time or two. Of course once he collapsed it, he got danced around easily.

I saw us, more than a few times, run a 4-3 and I think I prefer that alignment. Looks much better.

I didn't know he forced the fumble ... thanks

Even the radio guys said 4-3 was the standard alignment last night

Justin Houston is listed as 6-3, 258 lbs.

Orchard is listed as 6-4, 255 lbs.

Didn't really notice him looking small, looked more slow to me.

I noticed more of a 4-2-5 or 2-4-5, with the OLBs on the line. Not sure if I want to watch that again to figure it out for sure, though.

Random thoughts:

* 9 penalties on the Browns, not counting the 3 holding penalties that were declined when they were called on QB sacks. Holding penalties on sacks mean that even when we hold, we don't do it effectively. Memo to Doug Dieken in the broadcast booth: spend some time with Paszter teaching him that when he holds, his man has to hit the ground ... tackle the sob if you have to, or we'll be watching Kessler by game 6.

* Watching Winston last night and guys like Roeth and Flacco every year, has made me believe that the new prototype size for NFL QBs should be 6-5, 240-250, not the current 6-2 or 6-3, 220-ish. I also believe its only a matter of time before Griffin is injured, because he's too small. DeShaun Watson, everyone's darling for the 2017 draft, is too small. This was one of the reasons I wanted the Browns to use one of their 57 picks last draft on Cardale Jones.

* The brown jerseys with orange numbers with white 3-D highlights are simply hideous. My wife, who used to watch games with me from kickoff to final gun, didn't watch a single down last season. Last night, she looked at the Browns uni's for the first time and said "Good lord, what is THAT?". Thats your Cleveland Browns, dear.

* The combination of years of Browns' ineptitude, along with the NFL's apparent death wish, by virtue of rule changes to protect QBs, render WRs uncoverable, and only selectively calling holding penalties is making games unwatchable for me. It used to be a beautiful game, now its just an outdoor, full contact track meet. I approach the 2016 season with almost no sense of anticipation whatsoever.

* Get off my lawn.

I had to work so I DVR'ed the game and watched the first half of it last night when I got home. The offense wasn't bad, they just need to gel and I thought the OLine was OK when Joe was in there but when he would come out then they seemed to have problems. The defense was a whole different story, they looked putrid. No pressure, can't cover, can't tackle. Heck, the only bright spot was that they somehow stopped the run. It's early though and with a new coach, new scheme, and a lot of new faces it's gonna take some time to come together. What was up with Andy Lee not trying to tackle that punt returner? And how god-awful those refs were. I watched a Tampa D-Lineman come across the line of scrimmage and touch Bitonio and when Joe Thomas reacts they call him off-sides?!?! and on Tampa's first TD drive twice I saw their RT bear hugging our guy, I mean he had his arms completely around the guy and had a hold of the back of the guy's jersey, yet no holding call.

It definitely seems like white jerseys get flagged less often. Whether that is actually happening is hard to tell.

I'm guessing most of the officials grew up with the man in the white cowboy hat being the good guy. Could that subconsciously influence them?

Dave mentioned Doug Dieken ... and just a side comment by me, but I am to the point that I'm tired of listening to him. He always groans and sighs in the middle of Donovan's play-by-play ... to the point that it's distracting.

A guy sitting in front of me literally said he usually don't attend preseason games but this one he did because he knew it would be an easy win, this was before the game.

I think its because Doug is emotionally invested like most of the fans because he played with us, so he's sick of seeing the incompetence as well. Can't say i blame him, its much like Austin Carr on Cavs broadcasts, he doesn't hold back his feelings..lol

No, I definitely agree that he's probably feeling what I feel ... but listening on the radio is different because I can't see what's happening. So his distractions get to me.

We'd have won if we'd kept Mingo.

We'd be Super Bowl contenders by now if we would have kept Banner.

To be honest, I hardly got to see much of the game. What I did see what a nice pass to Gordon from RG.. We could use more of that.

I missed the TD but did see the replay this morning.. wow.. Very well done.

Gordon makes it looks easy.


That's about it for the good.

No sense in beating them up more than the rest of you have. I couldn't do it better LOL

They need a lot of work.. we just aren't a very good team.

We may, I say MAY, be competent on O but damn, we aren't going to stop anyone from scoring.

here's a question for OL buffs:

Why are we THIS bad? I can understand struggling after the loss of Mack and Schwartz, but we still have 3 returning starters (2 Pro Bowl caliber) and a 1st Round pick to go with them.

And it seems like we're the worst OL in the league ... both rushing and pass protect

I think the biggest thing is continuity and time to gel, another part being not getting quality players to replace. Not talking pro bowl, just serviceable would be good, that doesn't seem to be patzor or Erving. RT is our biggest hole right now

Offensive line was porous... Running game wasn't too bad... Crow and Johnson made a few nice plays... Gordon was by far biggest highlight.... Pryor looked good... Colman looked rusty

Rg3 made some nice plays... Held onto it too long most of the night which doesn't help the line... I think in general they need more time together to develop timing.

Overall offense wasn't horrible...

Defense was god awful. Doesn't help that they were going against a very good ofense that should make the playoffs... We had very little pressure on Winston and when we did we couldn't finish it off... Secondary was awful, but a better pass rush could help.

Way too many penalties.... I mean seriously... Those were just awful


Overall they played about how I'd expect.... I think we'll find a win or two this year but I don't expect more than 3-4 wins this year and that'll be a struggle.... Offense should put it together at some point if the line can gel a little more.... I have no hope for defense.

General reply.

It was night and day the quickness to release the ball that Cody Kesler showed compared to either RG3 or Josh McCown.

Maybe, he just didn't have reads to read and that's why, but for whatever reason, it showed pretty obvious to me that RG3 and McCown, would hold and look for an open man,

but Kesler knew where, and it was snap, step, and out. This was the first real look I had gotton of Kesler.

It even seemed to me that McCown was quicker than RG3, who seemed to hold on to the ball for a lot longer ... that'd be a question for the coaches as to why that is (design, inability to read the d, etc)

Yes, they will have to work on getting RG3 to pass the ball a lot quicker since our O line is weak.

Lord have mercy on this team.

J/C...

Did anyone really expect Horton to turn around the dead that O'Neil left here in 3 Pre-season games ?

Of course some did.

Obviously you are correct Lamp... I Saw a lot of lost boys last year trying to figure out where they were to line up on the field...

Guys not having a chance to learn because they had a D coach that had no clue...

I guess Horton forgot his magic dust... I wasn't big on his return... but never did I expect greatness from the mess left here...

3 pre-season games is not going to make the turn around.

I didn't listen to the radio broadcast but if they were saying 43 then they were speaking very loosely and giving an inaccurate view of the defense on the field. But, its very common for media covering football now to be very vague (wrong) with their explanations of Xs and Os.

Anyhow...I don't recall the Horton playing 4-3 (4 "defensive lineman" and 3 "linebackers") many times (if at all).

Nickel was the base defense this game (4-2-5..ie..
4 "defensive lineman" and 2 "linebackers") like Grimm said. This was used not as paradigm shift to a 43 but a typical response by most modern D coordinators to an offense that uses 3 wide as their base formation.

It is an interesting conversation though, the discussion about whether or not this personnel IN BASE DEFENSE is better suited to 43 or 34.

Personally, I think this defense has personnel holes regardless of the type of front. However; I think the either scheme 43 or 34 is better suited to play 1-gap rather then 2-gap.

This PRE-season game while not a good outing wasn't a sky is falling panic at the disco situation for me. Actually I don't see why many in this forum are up in arms at all consider the overall negative sentiment about the team in this forum.

Anyhow....

o It seems like Horton is still experimenting with the starting 4-man front. He started the game with:

LDE-Kruger LDT-Nassib RDT-Cooper RDE-Cooper

Imho Nassib doesn't belong playing DT at any time nickel or otherwise. I love the kid's motor, bend and instincts but playing him at DT seems counter to his skillset.

Cooper looked at home play DT-3-tech, when he was part of the DL he regularly has the best get off and ability to push/penetrate the pocket. But he's not firing off every snap which make me think schematically he's not free to fire off the ball upfield every snap

Kruger-didn't make any plays, didn't win his 1-on-1s; he was active and almost in position to get pressure but never got there

Ogbah-already looks to me like the best edge rusher on the roster and would be a lock for a starting spot at edge rusher 34-OLB or DE in a 4 man line.


First series on D:

o Kirksey is still coming downhill hard from the ILB, so far really like what I've seen from him (2 stops in 1st series)

o Jamar Taylor is continuing his aggressive physical play
in run support

o Would like to see our ILB react/recover better after playcation, On the play-action to Vincent Jackson the ILB spot dropped right into the passing lane yet didn't react till it was late. Winston threw the ball right passed Davis

o Gilbert had a PBU on 3rd down to force a FG

o Couldn't push the pocket up the middle

o Campbell made a nice play getting off a block to make a tackle on screen

First Series on Offense

o Crowell runs hard
o Penalty OL
o Gordon still has it, could shed some pounds
o 1st and 10 RZ throw to Barnidge, didn't like the read/decision. Barndige didn't get open and iirc was covered by their Hargraves...looked to me like Griffin had the TE on a drag route from the right slot and had Coleman backside on in-route
o Erving stacked into backfield on 2 & 10 in RZ
o 67 Pastor RT beat immediately on 3rd and RZ
o Griffin should throw the ball away

decent drive thwarted

Especially after letting some vets go.

That game was really hard to watch, I was so mad after I stopped watching.

After a hockey game and a sleep, I don't think it's quite as bad as I thought.

There was a lot of swapping players around. Thomas had a short night, and that coincided with the pass blocking going downhill. Also, we were extremely pass-happy, and I don't think the run/pass ratio will be anywhere near what we saw yesterday. I think Crowell ran fairly well against a fairly stout front.

The D won't be good. That should surprise nobody. Horton dumps the whole d on the team, and let's them struggle until they fully understand. The D will get better. We saw this last time Horton was here. It's only going to get so much better, though, because we really don't have the talent.

Also regarding the D... did someone forget to tell our defenders that they're allowed to hit the QB? There was a handful of times where it looked like they pulled up or ran around Winston. Winston is not a fast or shifty QB, but he looked like it against our rushers.

Gilbert looked horrible, and he started and was in there quite a bit. The guy does very little right. When he gives big cushions his man will run right by him, when hes playing press he gets run through. He is so mentally and physically weak, it's incredible.

Erving looked very meh. He had some good blocks, and he had some misses. I think he's made strides since last year, but that really isn't saying much. He's starting to put it together, I think, but consistency will be a struggle for him. He should be better for being a first rounder, but there's some hope for him yet. Not that I think he's going to fully replace Mack, but even Mack looked a little lost out there his rookie year.

Shelton didn't really do much, but when I did notice him he was engaged with 2 blockers. This seemed to happen quite a bit. That's good, I guess.

Griffen... oh boy. He looked like a guy we picked off the scrap heap, and he looked like the guy nobody else wanted to sign. He got hit a couple times, and developed happy feet. I think it was a bad idea to mix up the o-line and keep him in there. He started out looking good, starting getting hit and couldn't make reads and held the ball. After that he started to scramble everywhere. It's disappointing that he appears to revert back to what got him benched and run out of Washington, but he was a high-risk, high-reward option. I think this game was a tough test for him (mixing up the line and not running the ball very much), and he failed. Josh came in and started hitting receivers with quick throws, and offense started to move a little bit.


That was tough to watch, but I think that when games start to matter, then we'll see a different game plan on both offense and defense. We will see more Crow and Duke, we will see some better offensive line play, which should slowly improve throughout the season. We will see much less of Gilbert.
Other than Gilbert looking pathetic, I couldn't really make heads or tails of our secondary. A lot of really poorly defended passes. Safeties looked non-existent.

Every sack RG3 took:

Link

Sounds like Dan France had a rough time filling in for Joe.

I still think it was more communication than Erving's fault on the Ayer's stunt. Erving is right in front of RG3. Greco is randomly outside of Paztor. I can't think of why he'd swing that far out in pass pro.

Paztor got beat by Spence. He's a much better run blocker than pass protector. We might have to give him help from a TE or a chipping back fairly often.

They mention RG3 going left when he should have gone right, but I can't really blame him for thinking he'd have better protection to that side. He's used to Joe and Bitonio being there.