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#783228 - 04/28/13 12:57 PM Thinking It Through... Big Picture
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I think most on here know I don't give credit where credit is not due. And I'm not sold one way or the other on this draft. How our first two picks actually produce will go a long way in determining the outcome of this draft and we won't know that until they have played some ball.

It's easy for some to knock this draft and to an extent I do understand their concerns. I didn't come in here during this draft on some sort of spur of the moment emotional explosion although I did get a lot of smiles reading some of them.



Instead, I sat back and tried to make some sense out of the moves that were made and try to see the rationale behind it. After a while, I did make a lot of sense out of it. I'm not saying I'm 100% behind it, but I did find some logic.

Firstly, we are installing a brand new O. Secondly, a brand new D. Our coaching staff on both sides of the ball have their hands full just trying to get current players on our roster and the NFL vets who were signed, to learn and deploy brand new systems. Wouldn't adding more than a handful of rookies complicate this process even further? To me, it's quite logical that if you can gain value and stockpile picks for next year, we will have veterans in place by that time to help bring these rookies along in the new system.

As of now, we would be bringing in rookies that would have no real guidance from veterans to help adjust them into the system since our current roster is learning that system themselves. I believe with our current roster having a years experience themselves, next year would be far better timing to bring an infusion of rookie talent.

QB anyone? I know people are on both sides of the fence in regards to Weeden, but no matter which side you are on, last year certainly didn't show us enough development from him to say with any certainty that he will be the answer here. Stockpiling picks would only give us more ammunition to put ourselves in a position to move up for a QB should that need be there.

Even if that isn't the case, this year will point out who on our current roster does and does not fit the new schemes on both sides of the ball. If it is found that we have extreme needs anywhere, we have the ammo to move up to address those needs with higher caliber picks.

So whether one agrees with the strategy used in this draft or not, there is some logic here that causes it to make more sense than I've seen many suggest there is. How it will play out is anyone's guess. It's far too early in the process to say. But I don't think people should suggest that none of it makes any sense.

JMHO
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

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#783229 - 04/28/13 02:45 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Browns_Lonewolf Offline

Practice Squad

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 149
I agree Pit,

I equate our front office moves to my taking over one of the departments, I supervise, back in 2009. When I was brought in and put in charge, it was the first time someone with any "real" knowedge of the department (and how to run it) was put in charge. Every previous supervisor had little or no knowledge whatsoever and were subsequently removed (Think Shurmur here with the Browns). I came in and took my time evaluating each of the staff to determine what I had, what they knew, and determined that the only thing lacking was proper supervision and bringing the current staff up to date on thier eduaction with regard to thier individual responsibilities. I didn't have to scrap the whole department, just a couple of people that pulled the whole department down. I see Chud, Horton, and Norv doing this same thing in OTA's, which is why they feel the pieces in place need to be educated, in the new systems, and re-evaluated after they have the opportunity to prove themselves.

So I feel the new front office is not absolutely sure the previous leadership used thier personnel to thier fullest potential and want to use this year to get a solid evaluation of the talent as it is used in "This" system. They can then focus on scouting for the pieces thay know need do not fit at this time for next years draft class.

This is not only smart utilization of player personnel but sound fiscal conservacy as well. Only time will tell though.

JMO though.
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#783230 - 04/28/13 02:52 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Browns_Lonewolf]
MrKelso Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/21/09
Posts: 1415
Loc: Grove City, OH
Yeah trading for the extra picks in next years draft was smart in case they have to clean house after this season to bring in some system players. If Weeden stinks we'll have extra picks to move around in next year's draft to ensure we get the QB we want. It was frustrating watching other teams, such as the Bengals and Ravens have great drafts, where as we did very little to improve our team this season.
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#783231 - 04/28/13 03:01 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
jfanent Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 14531
Loc: Oregon, Ohio
Well, it looks like they had a plan and stuck with it. Everyone seems to be on the same page, not like the last two years where it seemed like Heckert was making effective decisions and the Walrus was meddling. I'm not thrilled with picks 3 and 6, but I'm quite OK with the pick trades, swapping for Bess and the 7th round gambles. We actually did what they said we'd do, and you can't ask for more than that. I was deathly afraid that Lombardi and Banner would try and make some sort of splash by taking huge risks, and thankfully that didn't happen. They simply stuck to the plan they laid out.
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#783232 - 04/28/13 03:01 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
nordawg Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 2316
Loc: norwalk, ohio
Pitt have you been hacked?
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#783233 - 04/28/13 03:29 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
After years of us not picking the guys I wanted...I think on 3 occasions I got my wish.
Gregg Pruitt
Leroy Hoard
Joe Thomas

I've decided to take a step back n get off the guys I fell in love with...of course realizing most came off the same report passed around to all the different draft sites. Maybe some would change the wording to sound authentic lol

But I have always tried to figure out - WHY the FO would take who they would.

That is why in this draft at #6 I wanted us to get that Edge Rusher to build the D around. Didn't think we would be 3 deep by 6 especially with all 3 Left tackles gone n Millner as well as Floyd on the board. Who knew both would drop.

So we got my #3 Mingo...maybe our guys had him as #1??? Who knows. Point is how can I be disappointed when I thought the best plan was to get the Edge Rusher...whoever we got we wouldn't get close to a better prospect down the road.

Cause the player wasn't my choice (but really we had no choice due to my 1 n 2 were gone) the concept is a Good one.

McFadden - 3rd round he the best value after all those OL went were DBs they went often in the 2nd round. Didn't know McFadden pre draft but we tend not to know West Coast as well as SEC n other divisions. I really like what I see n he has good cover skills which is much harder to learn than run stopping.

We all had CB on our list to get n we got a good cover kid. Same size as Sheldon n has legs still on him.

Slot WR....we got two good starters...I was not pleased w/Benjamin n hoping Cribbs would stay for the slot. Bess is solid slot guy.

We knew we weren't going to get all the PIECES this year. I know FA was a 2 year set up. Maybe draft also? But actually draft is a continual rotation of talent thing. But we had the foundation of 27 drafted players on our roster. We will have over 30 this year n who knows after next year.

I think its good not to OVER HAUL the entire roster. We got rid of the older FAs mostly n have kept the youth.

Nothing is PERFECT which includes our FO n the moves they made. But there is a plan in place. So far so good...now to take this PAPER stuff n put in on the FIELD!
JMHO
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Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
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#783234 - 04/28/13 07:08 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Versatile Dog Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 42995
Pit, is that you? Really?

Good post. Fair post.

And since you were fair, I will try and throw in some criticism of the picks.

I really wanted Milliner over Mingo. I know that an edge rusher was our #1 priority going into this season, but we signed Kruger and have Sheard for the other side. I think Milliner is a better player than Mingo. I thought he would fill a bigger need.

With that said, I believe that Banner's philosophy is that you pick the best player in regards to long-term commitment. I understand that. I agree w/that. I just don't think Mingo is better than Milliner.

I like our 3rd round pick. I know he is short. But, his hips are very fluid. His footwork is great. He has great hands. I like that pick, but understand why people may be wary.

I really like trading the 4th and 5th round picks for higher picks next year. I still can't believe that so many people are complaining about that one. I love how that little SOG Banner really tried to shove one up the Squeelers butts.


I kinda like the gamble of taking Slaughter in the 6th. I would rather take a guy like that in the 6th, than just some guy who really doesn't have that much talent. If he doesn't come back from the injury.....oh well. If he does, it's a steal. Last year, my favorite pick in the draft was Winn, and he was a 6th rounder, too. Never understood why he slipped so far.

Not so sure about taking a guy who sold pot. I know nothing about him in regards to performance. Some say he is very good. Steve guy pimped him earlier. But, is there a chance he'll be in jail?

The other guy. I have no idea.

All in all, I can't say I am overly thrilled w/the players. But, I do like that Banner seemed to have a very detailed plan. One cat was saying we weren't prepared and that is why we made the trades. LMAO. No one is unprepared anymore and furthermore, I think Banner is one of those guys w/short man syndrome and he has been outsmarting people his entire life. He loves sticking it to the big boys.

Let me tell you something, bro........I know you aren't thrilled w/Banner right now, but I think he is the kinda guy that you will end up loving. He is a pit bull, just like you and me. This little sucker is going to be tenacious as hell. He doesn't care if people rip him early. He even said they would, but that if you win, the fans will come around. I think this guy has a plan. And Pit, if you have a plan and you stick w/it........it's going to work. Junior is gone. The years perpetual blow-ups are over.

I'm getting carried away. Draft grade? I don't know. The players don't excite me all that much, but I do see the plan, for once. And that gives me hope!
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#783235 - 04/28/13 07:22 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Heldawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 3728
Loc: Kailua, HI
Draft grade articles make me chuckle. Everyone knows that when we have 6 picks in the first four rounds we're going to get a high draft grade right?

I mean look at Minnesota...they had three first round draft picks! Oh and they don't have Percy Harvin or their second rounder, or their third rounder, or their fourth rounder or a seventh rounder.

I mean Floyd was probably good value at that point even though I'm not a big fan. I like Rhodes. And Patterson seems like a knuckle.

But three first round picks?!? = A+++
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#783236 - 04/28/13 07:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
WSU Willie Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 5171
j/c

In reading through the board today after being away during the draft, an odd thought came to mind.

The extra picks we got for 2014 will certainly help positioning for getting a guy we want in next year's draft and...

Could make for some "wiggle-room" in going after this year's Josh-Gordon-type in the 2013 Supplemental Draft.

Not saying we are planning for that...just that we have some good draft spots to use if we want a guy in the 2013 Supplemental Draft.
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My New Year's resolution...forget the past...except for the spot in the Raider's game...the inexplicable decision to not give Baker ANY 1st team reps in camp...and not playing Chubb until it was forced upon them. I'm sure I'll let more slip in here tho.

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#783237 - 04/28/13 07:30 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Homewood Dog Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 03/16/13
Posts: 2099
I agree with you Vers except on one point. I think Mingo will be a very good player and Milliner is an injury risk. Those five surgeries that I read about had me worried. Originally he was my first choice.

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#783238 - 04/28/13 07:59 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
Loki Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 09/13/06
Posts: 1744
To be honest so far I love Banner. Look at what's he's done:
1) Not signed anyone over 30 basically
2) No one had any clue what the Browns were doing on draft night
3) Seemed to have trades ready to go with every position ( Rumored the trade was if Mingo wasn't there Rams 1st and 2nd for the Browns spot)
4) Traded picks for a draft that is stronger next year
5) Said the only trades he makes are winning ones and ones that weaken the other team.


I really like Banner. At this point this the best Coaching Staff and Front office we've had since Bill Belicheck.My only worry is that Haslam is going to sent to jail and the Browns will have a new owner in a year or two who will clean house.
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#783239 - 04/28/13 08:45 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Versatile Dog]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:

Pit, is that you? Really?

Good post. Fair post.




Yeah, it's me! LOL

And I wasn't actually saying that I agreed with the way they went about things especially, but saying that I did understand the logic behind it. Some seemed to indicate they were not prepared and had no clue what they were doing. Looking at it big picture, I feel my initial post shows the logic behind their moves at least to some extent.

Quote:

I really wanted Milliner over Mingo. I know that an edge rusher was our #1 priority going into this season, but we signed Kruger and have Sheard for the other side. I think Milliner is a better player than Mingo. I thought he would fill a bigger need.




I very much agree with you there! I believe Millner is more NFL ready. I feel he is a much more fundamentally sound player and is an every down player which was more deserving of a top 10 pick. I think there are more questions concerning fundamentals as it pertains to Mingo and I hope he lives up to the billing.

Quote:

With that said, I believe that Banner's philosophy is that you pick the best player in regards to long-term commitment. I understand that. I agree w/that. I just don't think Mingo is better than Milliner.




Agreed.

Quote:

I like our 3rd round pick. I know he is short. But, his hips are very fluid. His footwork is great. He has great hands. I like that pick, but understand why people may be wary.




There are questions around him being a complete CB, but once you get to the third round, most everyone has some questions. If they didn't, they wouldn't still be there in round 3. So I have a wait and see attitude regarding McFadden.

Quote:

I really like trading the 4th and 5th round picks for higher picks next year. I still can't believe that so many people are complaining about that one. I love how that little SOG Banner really tried to shove one up the Squeelers butts.





As I stated above, I think it was sound strategy. As of now I would say there are what this FO and coaching staff consider question marks surrounding how some of our players transition into the new schemes. As such, this gives us higher draft picks next year and the ability to trade up if need be, to address positions that we may end up needing, yet they are not now sure about.

I think people have been overly optimistic in regards to how seamless these transitions will go. More so on D. Just because a player has certain raw skills overall, does not mean they will transition smoothly to a new scheme. They now have additional ammo next year to address this situation as it arises IMO.

Quote:

I kinda like the gamble of taking Slaughter in the 6th. I would rather take a guy like that in the 6th, than just some guy who really doesn't have that much talent. If he doesn't come back from the injury.....oh well. If he does, it's a steal. Last year, my favorite pick in the draft was Winn, and he was a 6th rounder, too. Never understood why he slipped so far.




I probably favor this pick more than the others. In the sixth round, often your picks never even make the roster. In this case, we know the talent is there to be a major contributor if he can regain his health and stay healthy. It's hard to get that quality of athlete in this position of the draft.

Quote:

Not so sure about taking a guy who sold pot. I know nothing about him in regards to performance. Some say he is very good. Steve guy pimped him earlier. But, is there a chance he'll be in jail?




As long as he doesn't sell any to Josh Gordon we'll be okay.



At this stage it's all a gamble. I don't really try to nit pick seventh round picks that much. I mean they're one step away from being UDFA's. There are far more misses than hits at this juncture in the draft.

Quote:

The other guy. I have no idea.




That makes two of us.

Quote:

I think this guy has a plan. And Pit, if you have a plan and you stick w/it........it's going to work. Junior is gone. The years perpetual blow-ups are over.




Here I'm not so sure we agree. I'm not saying they don't have a plan. I'm not saying they won't stick to it. I believe that remains to be seen. What I do disagree with? Not everyone that has a plan and sticks to it succeeds. If the plan itself is flawed or not executed properly, the plan fails. So I believe the jury on that part remains to be seen.

Quote:

I'm getting carried away. Draft grade? I don't know. The players don't excite me all that much, but I do see the plan, for once. And that gives me hope!




I see the logic in what they did in this draft, but not so much a plan per say. Unless that plan was to make every "major investment" in your front seven. If that is the plan, they're doing a good job of it.



I do believe they have made upgrades in many areas without having to spend a lot and I like that. But after the Mingo pick, I still see them as putting all of their eggs in one basket. And I do believe Mingo is pretty raw for a #6 overall pick in a draft. But only time will tell in regards to that.

JMHO
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

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#783240 - 04/29/13 03:53 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
DjangoBrown Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 5761
Been away over the weekend and catching up to everything that went down on day 3 and I know you guys can't wait to read my take

I gotta give it to the "consensus". My confidence in them grew a ton this weekend. Not because I particularly loved the draft, the prospects etc. I will get into that in the specific threads for a detailed evaluation, but because they kept avoiding doing dumb stuff I absolutely expected them to do. I know this might sound like a backhanded compliment, but it's not meant that way. I expected them to do something stupid with the QB position, screwing Weeden prematurely. Well, they did not, they did a smart move by adding veteran help and give Weeden another season to take it or fail.
I expected them then to trade away one of our cornerstone players, especially after the Mingo selection. Again, they didn't do it. They also didn't sign a bad FA or pick any prospects I hated/thought were overvalued

Again, this all sounds like a backhander, but avoiding dumb stuff was BIG for me to trust this setup and they've accomplished that and I'll happily eat crow for that, as this is good news for the Browns long term. I thought pre-draft that Banner and Lombo are ego-tripping, trying hard to add their stamp on the team above everything else. Well, they've avoided that too. I will go as far as saying that especially Lombo has (or had to) eat his ego, as he HATED on the 2012 draft, yet they will start 4 guys on Offense from that draft. Hats off for that. Here's a Banner-quote I loved with regards to that:

"I think it will be clear that the team is continuing to improve as I think it has for the last year or two and positioning itself well to have a chance to become very good and sustain it."

Pretty much applauding the building job Heckert and the former coaches have accomplsihed and their consensus actions speak volumes about that too. Also, unlike most posters, he didn't connect development to the W-L record alone. We developed the past 2 season without improving our win total and he saw that (probably hinting that coaching was the bigger problem). He also was talking about adding talent and improving in a 2-3 year window, not 5 year re-building, which I thought they had on their minds yet again. Banner absolutely gets it when he said:

"I think the difference is on offense we think we have a lot of young guys who are not quite sure what they are going to be over time. So we were inclined to give them some time and see how they develop and then we'll be able to identify where we're at."

That's what I was saying with regards to eating their egos for the sake of the Browns and I couldn't be happier about that. Unlike most of the posters on here, he doesn't "evaluate" players in terms of regime agendas and who added the players. He's ALL about making this team better, no matter who contributed....that's HUGE folks

Adding to that, now to the REAL positive stuff to take away from this draft weekend. I read over the post-draft pressers and there he was, Joe Banner talking about "value" constantly, when discussing the Mingo pick, the trades etc. I might not agree with every single one of them, but to think in terms of value was a big positive for me and is the right approach. This consensus thing is closer to Heckert than most thought, me included. We will have to wait and see if they have the same eye for talent, but the approach is very similar and I like it. They're pretty much CONTINUING what Heckert STARTED and I couldn't be happier about that. This was a huge draft to evaluate our evaluators and while I'm not sold yet on the "content" (prospects, trades etc), I like the "form" (open-mindedness, realistic evaluation of our roster, eating pride), which bodes well for the future

I'll happily DOUBLE my confidence in the "conensus"
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#783241 - 04/29/13 05:28 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
Ballpeen Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
When I read Banners words in the transcript of the PC, I wondered how any of the people down on Banner for being simply a "bean counter" couldn't come away with a refreshed opinion. It was one of the best, well thought out talks I have ever heard from a person in a front office. It's clear they get it.

So, my confidence-o-meter in you just doubled

As for your worry about Haslam selling. I doubt that happens, and if it does, that won't be for a few years. By then the team will either be running on 8 cylinders, or puttering along.

A new owner isn't going to change much if everything is peachy. Plus, the new owner would probably become his wife, or son.
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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#783242 - 04/29/13 05:37 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
kwhip Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 1758
My "Like-O-Meter" for you just went from 10% to 60%.

I'm impressed that you stashed that EGO of yours and actually looked at this for what it really is.

2 for you big boy.

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#783243 - 04/29/13 05:50 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
kwhip Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 01/07/13
Posts: 1758
Quote:

. As of now I would say there are what this FO and coaching staff consider question marks surrounding how some of our players transition into the new schemes. As such, this gives us higher draft picks next year and the ability to trade up if need be, to address positions that we may end up needing, yet they are not now sure about.

I think people have been overly optimistic in regards to how seamless these transitions will go. More so on D. Just because a player has certain raw skills overall, does not mean they will transition smoothly to a new scheme. They now have additional ammo next year to address this situation as it arises IMO.




BINGO. Now you're getting it. lol.

The pundits are hammering us for letting 4th and 5th round picks go by the wayside. At first I was like "WTH is going on?". Then came the compensation and I thought to myself. "Self, these were OUTSTANDING moves". SHREWD. It's rare to see that happen. But I LOVE it.

I'm going on record right now.

There's a reason we made those trades and haven't blown all our Cap Space. You alluded to it. We're going to monitor this team this year to determine what we REALLY need to address going forward. And in the 2014 off season and draft we will hit FA even harder and utilize those 2 3rd's and 2 4th's to move around in next years draft and GET OUR TARGETED PLAYERS. May or may not be a QB. But by the time we are done with the 2014 off season, this football team will be spoken of by the pundits as "THE TEAM TO BEAT IN THE AFC NORTH".

Watch how this transpires.

Vers. I concur about Banner. He's shrewd. He knows what he's doing. And he doesn't give a rats ass what ANYONE thinks about it. Indicated right off the bat by bringing in Lombardi. That was a BALZZY move.

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#783244 - 04/29/13 07:26 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Damanshot Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 37695
Loc: Aurora, Ohio
That makes a ton of sense Pit..
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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#783245 - 04/29/13 08:58 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
bigf00t Offline

Dawg Talker

Registered: 12/10/06
Posts: 1200
Loc: Central Minnesota
I think that post is right on. Sometimes i read your posts-sometimes i don't (i just get tired of the negativity)- Today i am glad that i did, it sounded positive and hopeful.

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#783246 - 04/29/13 09:43 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Attack Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 6160
Loc: C-Bus
Instead, I sat back and tried to make some sense out of the moves that were made and try to see the rationale behind it. After a while, I did make a lot of sense out of it. I'm not saying I'm 100% behind it, but I did find some logic.



Actually I had to do the same..I thought the Cavs and Chris Grant took over our draft..stockpiling future picks..
But it is logical. They get more ammo next year in a skill heavy draft..thats what Banner meant by looking to be productive in the future.
Plus they want to give some of the players they have a chance to show what they are.


QB anyone? I know people are on both sides of the fence in regards to Weeden, but no matter which side you are on, last year certainly didn't show us enough development from him to say with any certainty that he will be the answer here. Stockpiling picks would only give us more ammunition to put ourselves in a position to move up for a QB should that need be there.


Yes they want to see BW in a offense suited to him..not that crap that was running last year.
So we'll see ..although I don't like handing players to a division rival who is known for drafting good for a long time.

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#783247 - 04/29/13 10:11 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Ballpeen]
Attack Dawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 6160
Loc: C-Bus
Quote:

When I read Banners words in the transcript of the PC, I wondered how any of the people down on Banner for being simply a "bean counter" couldn't come away with a refreshed opinion. It was one of the best, well thought out talks I have ever heard from a person in a front office. It's clear they get it.

So, my confidence-o-meter in you just doubled

As for your worry about Haslam selling. I doubt that happens, and if it does, that won't be for a few years. By then the team will either be running on 8 cylinders, or puttering along.

A new owner isn't going to change much if everything is peachy. Plus, the new owner would probably become his wife, or son.




I had to listen to it ..I wanted to hear their explanation of their plan.I wanted that fourth used on a safety but if the guys they had on their board were not there and the players available don't fit, you don't force a pick.

I give Banner props for answering questions I thought he might dodge but he was straightforward and told the reporters the reasoning behind the moves..now they aren't saying everything , but thats expected.
Tell U what..the trade with Pukesburgh will be known after the 2014 draft..

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#783248 - 04/29/13 10:38 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Attack Dawg]
rastanplan Offline

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Registered: 03/08/13
Posts: 1913
I keep on reading that next draft is going to be so much better in the middle rounds, and people are very sure of that, while to me the talent level of drafts after the 2nd round are more or less the same.

Can someone give me an example of a Safety and a Full Back, for example, that will be available next year in the middle rounds, and why are they so much better then this years players?

A link of a credible source stating that next year middle rounds are going to be packed with good players would also be excellent.

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#783249 - 04/29/13 10:41 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

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Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

This draft will be measured more by what we did not do. Not so much by what was done.

Over the next few years first and foremost: how did this years quarterback class pan out?

The Browns passed on all of them. Especially the guys available in the fourth round. If one of those quarterbacks become a franchise guy; then they failed.

If the player taken by the Steelers (S. Thomas) and the guy the Colts took ( M. Hughes) become ballers then we will have to see what happens with the Browns selections in 2014 third and fourth round.

===========================================================

From my point of view missing on the sixth pick in the first round is inexcusable.

Mingo needs to make it big. Milliner in my opinion was the better pick. First, he is not learning a new position. Second, he was the top player at his position and he fit a required need.

Nothing against Mingo unless he bombs.
========================================================

Leverage - the trade outs in the fourth and fifth are only as good as what is done with them.

If Weeden fails this year and those picks help to secure a future great quarterback then the insurance provided in gaining higher picks next year was a wise move.

If those picks are used straight up and they secure better players than what the two picks this year become then again a wise move.

I never grade drafts until the players prove what they can do.

The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan, Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down.

Time will tell.

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#783250 - 04/29/13 11:00 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
Arps Offline

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J/C
Quote:

Thinking It Through... Big Picture




There is no place on this forum for this kind of talk. Try remaking a thread and calling it "knee jerk reactions...and over the top responses"

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#783251 - 04/29/13 11:02 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Arps]
no_logo_required Offline

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j/c

One: I understand the reason to not go too heavy-in FA though I would have certainly attempted to find more DB depth there.

Two: I understand the reason to bank higher picks in a better draft (2014) rather than just accept the lower picks in a weaker draft. I also really liked both high picks (Mingo and McFadden).

One + Two: I think this is the hard part. When you put them together, you end up with a team that has averaged less than 5 wins a season over the past 4, sitting on a ton of cap room, and only adding in 2 prospective starters through the draft. It is tough to see teams like SF add more in the FA/trade and also in the draft while sitting on a team that just went to the Supwerbowl.

I completely understand the strategy behind the method, but am still incredibly disappointed in the end result. I think we could have been more aggressive on a few veterans on short contracts (for one). Any success in 2013 now is based solely on the growth of the current talent and the shift in coaching.

Our defense should be fine if our DBs step up (Horton's specialty). Our weakest positions on offense are QB and TE (Norv's specialty). So, it is possible to still have a successful year (especially with all of the young players maturing). But, it feels like we made it more difficult than it needed to be.
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#783252 - 04/29/13 11:04 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: DjangoBrown]
ClayM57 Offline

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Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 5950
Loc: Wauseon, Ohio, Northwest corne...
Agree..What I appriciated was that we didnt sell our future for pennies today.

When I started hearing the statements of "Put our stamp" "Make a huge Splash" I was afraid they were going to do something stupied like trade next years 1st for a 2nd this year to grab a average Corner or guard, or trade next years picks for 2nd round talent this year which becomes 4th round talent next year with a stronger draft predicted next year but who knows, We didnt trade off good talent for low draft picks or project players / media hopefuls this year.

There still is alot to watch for but the new FO passed the Draft Test,

To me...Face it, We were not in a good position do make a slam dunk this year, the strengh of the draft is pretty much our team strengh and we didnt have a 2nd so our options were very limited, when this happens you see team panic and do alot of stupied things, or sit tight and let it all pass, which we did, thank-god.

but as always we still have alot of off season left, things could change overnight...

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#783253 - 04/29/13 11:04 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

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Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I'm not really sure that you can say, "If one of those QB's in the fourth round pans out, they failed".

Nobody drafts a QB in the fourth round with a high percentage of anticipation that he's franchise QB material. If teams really believed any QB in the draft was the long term QB for their franchise, they wouldn't wait until the fourth round to select him.

I feel when and if they need to make a move for a QB, it will be a guy with very high first round potential. Not a flyer on a mid[round pick. If their intention was to do that, I felt we would have seen them do that in this draft.

While many posters here pass judgment on Weeden according to his rookie performance, it appears this FO either didn't see a franchise QB in this draft or truly see Weeden was a square peg being forced into a round hole through trying to put him in the WCO.

I didn't see a franchise QB in this draft either. All seemed high risk investments to me. So if you're going to put that out there, maybe you can tell us who your answer would have been in this draft? Which QB do you feel they missed on?
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

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#783254 - 04/29/13 11:57 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

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Registered: 04/03/07
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Loc: Reno, Nevada

I thought I did put out there who I thought they missed on:

"The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan ( no shot at him), Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down."

===========================================================

Kaepernick and Russell Wilson were identified by their organizations as good prospects. They proved themselves when given the opportunity.

You do not have to draft in the top five of the first round to find a quarterback. You have to have an eye for talent. You have to able to project how a player will perform in your system. Just because others pass on a guy does not mean ability is lacking.

Weeden was ranked as one of the worst quarterbacks last year after being handed the position at 29 years old.

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.

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#783255 - 04/29/13 12:23 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
no_logo_required Offline

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Quote:

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.




I would give them a bit longer leash than that though. If Weeden fails to drastically improve AND they fail to draft a good starting QB in the 2014 draft, then they failed.

Next year's QB-class is much better (and other positions as well), so I have a tough time saying that they should've taken a big gamble on a Barkley, T.Wilson, or Bray rather than just sitting tight and taking a more viable option next year.
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#783256 - 04/29/13 04:53 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

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Quote:


I thought I did put out there who I thought they missed on:

"The players I wanted in this draft: Dion Jordan ( no shot at him), Dee Milliner, Tyler Wilson. I was also in favor of taking a flyer on on Gino Smith in a trade down."




I actually liked Millner over Mingo myself. But time will tell on that one.

Quote:

Kaepernick and Russell Wilson were identified by their organizations as good prospects. They proved themselves when given the opportunity.




Yes they were. I'm not saying that there may not be a diamond in the rough somewhere that they missed on. But San Fran was doing very well with Smith and Seattle had just signed a FA they felt would actually end up being the starter. Wasn't it Flynn to a big FA deal?

In both cases, these teams were not in desperate need of a QB and had the luxury of taking a chance on someone.

My question to you is, how many NFL FO's bat 1000 on draft picks? Are you saying if they just so happened to overlook one diamond in the rough in the 4th round, they failed? If Tyler Wilson bombs, did you fail? At least 30 other GM's just so happened to agree with our FO on this. I guess they will all have failed in your opinion?

If that's your assertion here, every NFL FO fails in every draft. Because they always miss on some picks.

Quote:

Weeden was ranked as one of the worst quarterbacks last year after being handed the position at 29 years old.

Time will tell if Weeden pans out but I would not put all my eggs in the Weeden basket given his age and past performance.




I don't think this FO is putting all of its eggs in one basket. I simply don't feel they wished to take a gamble on the QB position with a draft pick that has just as many if not more questions surrounding them than Weeden has.

Quote:

If one of this years quarterbacks prove to be better than Weeden then in my opinion, yes, they failed. They failed to upgrade a position of need.




Are you going to be as hard on the other 30 teams FO's that passed on these same QB's at least three times? Because it seems a lot of team didn't think they were worth that investment either. Or will it just be our FO who missed the mark?

I think you're being very unrealistic here......
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

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#783257 - 04/29/13 05:15 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
way to go n get the Koombaya sing along started. Puff the magic dragon...

Even DJango got into it ratsanplan still fighting. will answer your question Rastanplan after the draft next year

Good to see we got a plan in place. Excellent coaching staff n 27 + around 20 rookies (counting UDFA) all Browns based not knowing any other team. 47 into camp. We never had that before...

Just a happy place to be in finally a team getting past that Expansion stage n becoming competitive.

JMHO
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

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#783258 - 04/29/13 05:38 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
PitDAWG Offline

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Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I still say it's a re-build!

LOL
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

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#783259 - 04/29/13 06:03 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: rastanplan]
Ballpeen Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 27693
Quote:

I keep on reading that next draft is going to be so much better in the middle rounds, and people are very sure of that, while to me the talent level of drafts after the 2nd round are more or less the same.

Can someone give me an example of a Safety and a Full Back, for example, that will be available next year in the middle rounds, and why are they so much better then this years players?

A link of a credible source stating that next year middle rounds are going to be packed with good players would also be excellent.





I don't know about the quality of the draft other than what I have read. This was by most accounts a poor draft other than line and pretty deep in decent corners.

As for links, you can find the info as easily as I so you can do a little research if you wish. I am not going to start searching around because you want me to....you do it, you can find it.


We drafted a safety from ND....a pretty good player just off injury. Evidently we checked him out and he passed whatever test the team has in such cases, so basically you are moaning about a worthless position like fullback.


Screw fullbacks. They are about as useful as a steering wheel on a mule. Basically it is a blocking position these days. If you want to waste one of you offensive weapons on a guy who blocks 95% of the time, put a real blocker back there.


Me, I would rather have 1 back and 4 guys who can move down field to make plays.


Phil Taylor would make a decent fullback. I'll bet you could give him the ball and he would gain the tough yard. I'll bet he could clear out a seam for the back.


Why waste a draft choice on a fullback when you have maybe 15 players already on the team who could play it?
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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#783260 - 04/29/13 06:03 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
eotab Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 15901
Loc: L.I., NY
Quote:

I still say it's a re-build! LOL




Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win

lol
_________________________
Franchise QB on board!
Great Moves: Vernon, Richardson on D.
OBJ Harris and OL depth for the O.
Time to work hard and be a Machine out there!

GM Strong!

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#783261 - 04/29/13 06:06 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: eotab]
PrplPplEater Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 21693
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

I still say it's a re-build! LOL




Well don't you have to have something BUILT for it to be a Re-Build...

I win


lol




This is like a group of firefighters bragging that while your house completely burned down, they saved your basement.
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Fear us, for we have Hughlett

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.


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#783262 - 04/29/13 06:52 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

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Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada
Flynn was just signed as a FA. Seattle although just signing Flynn must have felt that it was still worth taking Russell in case Flynn didn't pan out. The result was that Flynn was not given the job like Weeden. Russell beat him out.

The Browns are not in a desperate position as well. They could have very easily taken a chance on any of the guys in the fourth round. None would have been pressed to start right away. That is the whole point.

The Eagles had Vick and Foles yet they recognized that getting Barkley was a value in the fourth round.

The Steelers took Jones in the fourth. Oakland just signed
Flynn and saw fit to take a chance on Wilson. Both were fourth rounders.

Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.

===========================================================

"I don't think this FO is putting all of its eggs in one basket. I simply don't feel they wished to take a gamble on the QB position with a draft pick that has just as many if not more questions surrounding them than Weeden has."

===========================================================

Weeden was a first round selection. A developmental quarterback at 29. Jason Campbell also a first rounder now 31 has been given multiple chances to win a starters job. He has yet been able to hold that position.

Hard to believe that none of the four guys taken in the fourth round were not worth the risk of a fourth round selection when you have Weeden and Campbell as your main guys.

Given who you have on the roster. Yes, they failed if any of those quarterbacks become better than Weeden and Campbell. Their job is to upgrade the talent on the team.

No matter how you feel about Weeden clearly he is a risk because of his performance.

========================================================

I can understand trading the fourth and fifth rounder for next years 3 and 4th rounders as insurance to have ammo to move up if Weeden totally bombs this year.

That may prove to be a good strategy. I am sure that was their thought process.

Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.

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#783263 - 04/29/13 08:35 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: Browns_Lonewolf]
jacksondawg Offline

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Registered: 03/17/13
Posts: 549
+1

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#783264 - 04/30/13 05:46 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
Dean Offline

1st String

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 451
Loc: Marion, Ohio
The proof is in the pudding. Anyone, any where, any way for any reason can grade this draft from A+ toF-. Based on past performance in college ball, combine scores, college talent showcase games, chicken bones or Ouija boards, any interpretation is possible.

I'll see,"I love this pick," to "WTF were they thinking?" from now until the 17th week of next season. Then and only then will ANYONE be fully qualified to grade this draft. Everything prior to that is egoist breast beating and puffed up feelings of grandeur and expertise by arm chair QB's.

The proof is in the pudding. Last years draft? WTF were they thinking with Weeden?

That said, I reserve judgement until January of 2014.

Thank you!
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#783265 - 04/30/13 04:37 PM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
PitDAWG Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 35582
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Quote:

Nobody bats a 1000 in the draft that is not the point.




Quote:

Nassib, Barkley, Jones, or Wilson were considered by most to be second, third or fourth round prospects. If one of them becomes great, then yes, they failed to recognize talent at the most important position on the field when they clearly have not solved that position on the team. No matter if Weeden succeeds or fails.




Batting 1000 seems to be the only point you're trying to make here reading these two quotes.

You don't answer a gamble (Weeden), with another mid round gamble. You find an answer.

I guess you must feel somehow that teams find the answer to the franchise QB position in the mid rounds every time one just so happens to be selected there?

The odds are very low. Just look at the starters in this league and where they were selected and do the math on the averages there.

It just looks to me you want to hedge your bet to hang someone. Actually, it's obvious. So carry on........
_________________________
"You know what? You've got to get (Hue Jackson) players. And you know what? I'll come straight out with it. The guys who were here before, that system, they didn't get real players.'' - John Dorsey

#gmstrong

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#783266 - 05/01/13 10:20 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: PitDAWG]
bonefish Offline

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Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 5492
Loc: Reno, Nevada

Just want to make sure I understand.

If you are the decision maker in evaluating the talent in the draft are you not accountable for your decisions?

The Browns needed a safety. They traded with the Steelers. The Steelers selected a safety. If the guy becomes a solid player and the player the Browns take with that trade bombs is that acceptable to you? If Jarvis Jones proves to be way better than Mingo is that ok by you? What if Milliner becomes the next Revis and Mingo turns out like Vernon Gholston?

GM's are supposed to held accountable for the decisions they make. Holmgren blew the Griffin deal. Is not ok by me when you can not find a quarterback to lead your team.

There is difference in taking a shot at a guy in the mid rounds. Your exposure is not as great. You are not tying up big dollars. If you draft a QB say in the fourth and your starter Weeden does well are you hurt? If you develop a guy like Nassib or Landry Jones and at some point they seem ready or play well in a relief of injury you then have options. That is why teams like the Giants, Steelers, Eagles, and Oakland drafted those guys.

If Banners decision pays off and Weeden plays great or they parlay the traded picks into a trade for a quarterback that becomes a true franchise quarterback then he should be applauded.

If you come in and say "we will build the team through the draft". Then you need to be right with your decisions. The higher the pick the higher the percentage of accountability. You take a shot at a guy in the fourth round your odds are less than 50% chance of success but you may score big with much less risk. Russell Wilson, Colin Kaepernick, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Brett Farve just to name a few turned out ok.

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#783267 - 05/01/13 10:34 AM Re: Thinking It Through... Big Picture [Re: bonefish]
YTownBrownsFan Offline

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Posts: 45608
Loc: YTown, Ohio
I want to reiterate:

You, and others, may think that the Browns need a Safety. Maybe the Browns, and Horton, are not so sure of that. Maybe they like what they have seen out of some of the young players we have in the secondary? Maybe they feel that those kids are better than what we would have found in the 4th/5th rounds? They took a flyer on a very talented, though injured, Safety in the 6th round. Couldn't it be possible that the team feels that the kids they have deserve a year in this defense to prove themselves?

This Browns team is different from most crap teams that bring in completely new front offices and coaching staffs. This team has a lot of young, and untested talent. There are some promising kids on this roster, but the coaches need to see what we have with them. Maybe the "experts" feel that FS was a dire need, but maybe the defensive coaches want to see what Gipson, Hagg, and maybe Basemosi can do before they go out and add more pieces to the puzzle? Isn't that possible? In fact, isn't that more likely than "The Browns just decided to abdicate their role in building the team this year, and have decided not to pick players just because they were not prepared, or didn't like anyone in this draft? Isn't it likely that they just didn't like players in this draft, in the 4th/5th rounds, more than the youngsters they already have, and who they already have to evaluate within their systems?
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