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If Farmer had not whiffed on four first round picks (I know, that may not be totally fair to Shelton, but to date, none are helping), Pettine could be reasonably expected to have a wining record. It is also not fair to Erving. He was drafted as a Center, for insurance in case Mack was not fully healthy or in case Mack leaves next year. Everyone complains about an insurance policy until to need to collect on it. How about the fact that we drafted a backup center when there were other clear, gaping holes on the roster?
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Then you end up with fans who have no clue trying to act like they do bro.
Come on, GM. Let's not start w/the insults on this thread. It's been good thus far. Make your argument. It's cool. No need to insult others for having an opinion. Please????? Man it's not a insult it's the truth
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I get that, bro.........What worries me is that we cannot afford another terrible draft and FA period.
I don't think you "grow" into evaluating talent. You have the eye or you don't. The first draft is really looking like a bust BUT we don't know for sure yet. The second draft is still anybody's guess so its way, way to early to worry about it. Free agency didn't help us last off season, but it's didn't help us much either unless you want to jump on Josh's bandwagon LOL. As far as the eye it's not like Farmer looks at some tape then picks whoever he wants  The scouts, the coaching staff, and Farmer are all in this together. Don't think for a second that the scouts and coaches say oh we hate this guy, then Farmer extends his middle finger and drafts them anyway. Farmer is responsible for the draft picks. He makes the final decision. Did Farmer get to pick his on staff of scouts for his first draft? Did he have time to get to know them and trust them his first year" Oh Hell no. You hate Farmer and your not giving him a fair chance. It's OK to admit that bro. you act like farmer wasnt here. lmao. he was the assitent GM for gods sake.he wasnt just hired out of the blue.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Then you end up with fans who have no clue trying to act like they do bro.
Come on, GM. Let's not start w/the insults on this thread. It's been good thus far. Make your argument. It's cool. No need to insult others for having an opinion. Please????? LOL hold on a second buddy. When it comes to the X and O's of the game you know much more than me, and I have never disagreed with you. Why? because you know more than I do, and you will disagree with anybody who you know is WRONG. But when I disagree with anybody who I know is wrong you have a problem with that? I have not praised Farmer or Pet in this thread but now you want to ignore my opinion when I state it 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I don't have a problem w/you disagreeing w/anyone, bro. I am just asking that we keep it civil on this thread. It's been damn good thus far. You would be one of the last guys I would have predicted of messing it up.
Come on, bro. Disagree w/them all you want. Just state your logical opinions/facts and leave it at that.
Is that cool?
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~ Legend
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Why would he wanna come here? Oh hell, not at all sure he would. But when he was inducted in the HOF, he said he'll always bleed Brown and Orange so maybe, just maybe he'd like the idea. I do have knowledge that many of you don't about the owner of the Ravens. Stephen Bisciotti. He made his money in my industry and is respected for what he built but hated for how he built it. Tough guy to work for, Goes through staff like a hot knife through butter. Not a pleasant man and that I got from some of his most successful management people. Just my luck, I know a lot of them. So it could be that that is why he'd make a move. Who knows..... After the Baltimore game I went to the Baltimore Sun Newspaper website for stories from their perspective. Baltimore fans want to get rid rid of Ozzie worse than we want to get rid of Farmer. They think Ozzie is a worthless holdover from Modell era. They want a fresh look from a fresh GM.. perhaps a younger guy .. hungry to win. The grass is always greener from the other guy's back yard. They're not wrong. Ozzie hasn't been hitting on draft picks in recent years. He's got a great overall history of drafting, but recent has been a lot more miss than hit. For the same reasons, I'm good on him.
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All Pro
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When I say Farmer is oh for four in first round picks, I realize that ALL four could possibly still pan out. None are Mike Junkin yet. But of the four none are helping us now. And you expect first rounders to help right away.
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j/c:
Some of you have got me to thinking about the consultant thing, or team president, or a guy that both are GM and HC have to answer to. I wanna discuss that further, but I need to put more thought into it. I have a bad taste in my mouth because of how Holmgren filled that role not too long ago. Do we really wanna give a guy who has been out of the league for years all that power again? That scares me, but I am going to think about it and will address it later. Why would that have to be a guy who has been out of the league for years?
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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I don't understand why folks on this board will not admit that this is Pettine's Defense ? Why keep denying what we know to be true ? How dose that make you feel better ? O'Niel can get shipped out tomorrow and you will still have the same D ~
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Why would he wanna come here? Oh hell, not at all sure he would. But when he was inducted in the HOF, he said he'll always bleed Brown and Orange so maybe, just maybe he'd like the idea. I do have knowledge that many of you don't about the owner of the Ravens. Stephen Bisciotti. He made his money in my industry and is respected for what he built but hated for how he built it. Tough guy to work for, Goes through staff like a hot knife through butter. Not a pleasant man and that I got from some of his most successful management people. Just my luck, I know a lot of them. So it could be that that is why he'd make a move. Who knows..... After the Baltimore game I went to the Baltimore Sun Newspaper website for stories from their perspective. Baltimore fans want to get rid rid of Ozzie worse than we want to get rid of Farmer. They think Ozzie is a worthless holdover from Modell era. They want a fresh look from a fresh GM.. perhaps a younger guy .. hungry to win. The grass is always greener from the other guy's back yard. Think we can swing a trade: Farmer for Ozzie, straight up? Ravens get a younger hungry guy they crave and we get a guy who has done it and has experience. Everyone's happy.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Blow it up, all of it. This roster is going nowhere.
Who are the core guys? It's a mix of merchenaries cashing in their last payday and overdrafted young bums, the best of them being role players.
There's a lot of blame to go around everywhere. The biggest probelm will stay though, Haslam. I have little confidence he gets it right with his next set of hires. As long as he wants to stay in the loop and in the draft room, nobody with a brain will agree to work under him. only yes-men and desperados will take the job. Fitting that Pettine in his first presser said "there are only 32 of those jobs", he was one of those longshots that felt lucky. If it's too good to be true...
Best case, blow it up and pray Haslam is willing to put cash on the table for a "name" hire with a strong background (think Parcells, but not him). Not sure it will work, but that's the best case. Haslam has no clue about the process and has hired idiots like him so far. He needs to get over his pride to give away decisions of that magnitude, which is unlikely to happen. He wants to be involved, the Browns are his toy now and we're trapped and doomed in an old fart's boyhood dream
Last edited by DjangoBrown; 10/20/15 09:57 PM.
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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why is pettine so untouchable?
Horton had us with a top ten defense, and since we've had pettine, we've steadily regressed.
I would understand the heat toward Farmer if Pettine was receiving the same heat for not having the most paid defense in the league as a top 10 unit right now.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Again, Pettine is as big or bigger problem than Farmer. Just because he does a weekly press conference doesn't mean he's a good coach. Open your eyes people.
--He talks a big game but is absolutely clueless how to implement it. What did they do exactly in training camp to improve the run defense? What did he do to improve the run game? What exactly was practiced? Pettine thinks if he talks about it that it will magically happen.
"We are going to be tough."
"Words into action."
"Play like a Brown."
"We are going to stop the run."
"McCown gives us the best chance to win."
"I have to watch the tape."
"We discussed it."
This guy is full of sound bites and zero results. You can tell at the podium he's absolutely lost. He wants to get it done but he doesn't know how. Holy crap, he forced the Browns to go for 2 instead of forcing the Broncos to do it. "Idiocy" isn't a strong enough word for that decision. And he wouldn't take "accountability" for that decision. Another catchphrase.
And how do we know that Gilbert, Whitner, and Dansby weren't Farmer trying to please his coach?
Let's get real here guys. Pettine is a problem. Farmer is a problem. And they both need help. I can't just stand by and continue to read "I'm ok with Pett but not Farmer" crap. That's completely offbase.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Maybe we can make it a package deal:
Farmer and Pettine for Ozzie and Harbaugh
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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~ Legend
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Maybe we can make it a package deal:
Farmer and Pettine for Ozzie and Harbaugh I wouldn't be opposed. We certainly have the talent for a WC birth. We just have to live on a wing and a prayer that Ozzie can start getting good draft picks again.
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Maybe we can make it a package deal:
Farmer and Pettine for Ozzie and Harbaugh I wouldn't be opposed. We certainly have the talent for a WC birth. We just have to live on a wing and a prayer that Ozzie can start getting good draft picks again. And not botch the cap to the point where he has $22 million in dead money on the cap. We are living in a world where both the Ravens and Steelers are average (at best) and we can't take advantage of it. Awesome.
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Bridgewater is not all that. Sorry, but after 6 weeks, he is near the bottom of the league (starters) in passing. He averages just over 200 yards/game, and has 3 TD and 4 INT. He has played 3 teams who are bottom 11 in the NFL against the pass, (Frisco, who are last, Detroit, and KC) and Denver and San Diego, who are top 10 against the pass. 4 of those teams are also bottom 10 in the league in scoring defense.
Bridgewater has been far below average this season. He was very average last year. I see no need to regret having "missed" on him at this stage. He has the 2nd best scoring defense and 6th best rushing offense, and yet he is below average.
I suspect that he will wind up being a very middle of the road, journeyman type QB.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If Farmer had not whiffed on four first round picks (I know, that may not be totally fair to Shelton, but to date, none are helping), Pettine could be reasonably expected to have a wining record. It is also not fair to Erving. He was drafted as a Center, for insurance in case Mack was not fully healthy or in case Mack leaves next year. Everyone complains about an insurance policy until to need to collect on it. How about the fact that we drafted a backup center when there were other clear, gaping holes on the roster? At the time.. everyone was worried that the decline in the run game was due to Mack's injury, plus no one was sure how healthy Mack would be when he came back. Many were listing the Browns' needs as DL/C/WR/LB. So they drafted DL and C first 2 picks. Erving was the highest rated Center in the draft and had also played Tackle in College.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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you act like farmer wasnt here. lmao. he was the assitent GM for gods sake.he wasnt just hired out of the blue. Farmer was here for 11 months as the assistant GM, while Lombardi was the GM. Ray was then promoted to GM 2 months before the 2014 draft. Like I have been saying it's way to soon to be passing judgement on him one way or another yet.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I get that, bro.........What worries me is that we cannot afford another terrible draft and FA period.
I don't think you "grow" into evaluating talent. You have the eye or you don't. Here are some words straight from Farmers mouth for you Vers. Before hiring Lombardi, the Browns had also interviewed Farmer for their general manager position. Farmer said that he felt his "lack of experience on the college side and the fact he never ran a draft hurt his candidacy." When Farmer was hired as assistant general manager, Banner said this about Farmer's role: "Ray will be involved in both the college and pro side of the personnel department,'' he said. "He will be doing everything from participating with Mike in supervising the college and pro scouts in addition to the college and pro directors we have. He will be on the road scouting college players, and he'll be an integral part of all of these strategic decisions we have to make whether it be free agency, draft picks or whatever. He adds a voice that's just a top, top tier player evaluator in the NFL.'' Ray knew he had more to learn when the Browns hired him, and he has been working hard on it. http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2014/2/15/5...leveland-browns
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I am for keeping Pet but I believe it’s long past due to move on from Text.
You simply CANNOT have 4 years’ worth of 1st round picks have so little impact on a team. Let’s put it this way if not one of the players that have been taken in the 1st round by the Browns were missing, you wouldn’t know the difference. That absolutely CANNOT happen you ham string the entire team and organization when you fail in the 1st round.
He has also failed profoundly in FA and has overspent while doing so.
The Browns during Text’s time have had probably the MOST draft picks of any team in the league along with the MOST cap space and we all see the product on the field.
I’ll confess to a few things Flip has been wonderful to date and so has McCown for the most part. If they can continue to be as productive as they have been to date I don’t think it’s as bleak as some of the posters on here do.
I have huge problems with the draft strategies. For instance I wonder what film they were watching that led them for a moment to believe that we needed to solidify the middle of the defense. We didn’t get gashed up the gut last year we got gashed on the edges, yet we did zero to address that issue but instead burned our resources fixing something that wasn’t broke.
What that all means is we wasted the resources that were available to us.
There is one thing that is crystal clear we needed to and need to draft play makers who will play within the scheme and excel while doing so. Our LBers stink across the board yet we do nothing to address that while drafting guys who gather splinters, it’s maddening and that problem comes about as a result of Text’s work.
Last season the defense was very slow to come around it wasn’t until the second half of the season that they truly gelled. How soon most of you forget but the early stages of the season last year and whatever success we had was driven by the offense. Yet to hear most of you tell it, it was the defense that carried the team. NOT SO.
When Text drafted Shelton most of you applauded and I wondered which team you all were watching last season that led you to believe that drafting a NT would fix the run D.
The run D will always suck with this scheme the technique they teach and play doesn’t lend itself to stopping the run on the edges.
I stick it out with Pet and I can Text and his staff, they stink, and it’s obvious they stink, IMO.
BTTB
AKA Upbeat Dawg
Can't believe I am in a group that is comprised of the best NOT just fans but people on the planet.
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I thought your post fair and balanced, BTTB. That is, outside of canning Farmer. I do agree that more impact is needed from the four 1st round picks...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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j/c: It's getting a little contentious. It's okay to disagree, guys. Like I said earlier.........there aren't any sure answers. There are numerous logical theories and opinions. No need to get upset w/various opinions. Read, learn, offer objections. I really don't think there have been many--and maybe not any--stupid posts or opinions. I want to address a few things that were written since the last time I was on this thread: --Why do we have to hire a guy who has been out of the league to orchestrate things? We don't. I was just going off of some of the names that were thrown out there like Gruden and Parcells. I kinda doubt that anyone who currently has a similar job would want to leave that job to come work in Cleveland. --Trading Farmer for Ozzie would be wonderful, but it won't happen. --Getting a name hire? The only one I can think of is Saban. He probably would not come here and many of you don't like him. I happen to think he is strong enough to fight through the nonsense and he did coach in Cleveland. But, the chances of it happening are probably miniscule. --I don't think anyone is saying that Pet is untouchable. In fact, evaluating his performance thus far is part of the reason I started the thread. No reason to get upset because we don't all agree on whom is better/worse, etc. Personally, I don't think any of these guys are untouchable or must go. It's a discussion. I also believe that you can grow as a coach, especially in the areas where Pet is weak. I do not think you develop a better eye for evaluating talent. You can hone your skills in that regard, but some guys just have better eyes for talent than others. --This is NOT a Teddy thread, but how can you bring up his stats while not mentioning that the qb we drafted BEFORE him can't even see the field? --Again, I don't think there are any sure-fire answers on what we should or should not do. It's simply a discussion. It's been very good thus far, but man, I can see the contentiousness brewing beneath the surface. LOL.....old habits die hard. 
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You simply CANNOT have 4 years’ worth of 1st round picks have so little impact on a team. I feel like this comment is a little misleading. I understand what you're trying to say--If we had one 1st round pick in the last four drafts, then yes it would look like this. That is not the case. Farmer's pick breakdown is not... 1st 1st rounder- 4th year in the league 2nd first rounder- 3rd year in the league 3rd first rounder- 2nd year in the league 4th first rounder- 6 games in. If this was the case and Gilbert and Manziel were 4th/3rd year veterans respectively with their current level of performance/starting issues, it would be more accurate and chances are Farmer would be gone by the end of this year, if not sooner. But that dynamic is much different. 1/2 first rounders- 2nd year in 3/4 first rounders- 6 games in. I think this is a more accurate representation than saying 4 years worth of picks, because it's not four years (in measurement of time) of anything. Anyways, I'm at the point where I don't have a strong opinion one way or another on what direction to go with this FO/coaching staff. Regarding Ray Farmer--I think he has made some good and bad moves: Good FA signings Karlos Dansby Tramon Williams Andrew Hawkins Bad FA signingsDwayne Bowe Ben Tate Rob Housler (although to a min. contract) Good non-signings/cutsDqwell Jackson Buster Skrine (based on $$ and Kwan Williams waiting in the wings) Jabaal Sheard, Ahtyba Rubin (both better 4-3 fits) Brian Hoyer Bad non-signing/cuts TJ Ward Dion Lewis Jordan Cameron (although Barnidge is making that less an issue) Regarding the drafts, the only bad pick I see right now is Justin Gilbert. Disclaimer: I don't believe you can have "bust" picks 4th round and beyond. That's not to say I don't think more won't end up being bad, it's just that it's too early. People calling Shelton a bust after six games or Irving a bust because he hasn't played yet? Nah, that doesn't calculate with me. I'm perfectly fine with Cam Irving at this point considering we may end up losing 40% of our line in the offseason-- he just needs to be good when he gets his chance. Now, Cam Irving and Shelton may end up busts, but I am far from conceding that at this point. Again, some good and some bad for a first time GM in Farmer. And some don't want to hear this but not much was left behind from the past regime--notably a 2013 draft which we might as well have just called in sick, an inconsistent/injured 5T and a spotty pass rusher. My point, there were many holes need to be filled once Farmer got promoted. One thing I really don't like seeing from Farmer is not retaining guys who fit our system. Letting guys like TJ Ward walk or trading Billy Winn seem like they did more bad than good and we have to make up for that stuff. Mack, Schwartz, Gipson, and others are on the slate and worth keeping. Outside of Mack pretty much having control of what he does next, I hope the team and keep most players. The coaching is perplexing for me because I was REALLY on board with what Pettine AND O'Neill were trying to do and was happy to drink that kool-aid. Now, that confidence has diminished greatly and my Kool-Aid is much more watered down. I don't know coaching one bit, and won't pretend to, but there is something different and I don't know what. I think MP has shown poor management of timeouts and situational football that have cost us points, even games. I hope he improves on them moving forward. In then end, I'm not in favor one way or another but the concept of continuity with a group that is essentially still green makes me slightly lean on keeping everyone. However, as the season goes on and we see more from coaches and players, that may change.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I would talk with Scott Pioli. He is currently listed as assistant GM with the Atlanta Falcons.
Pioli without Belichick spells disaster.... Or at least it did in KC
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Vers, I know that was likely directed at me because the tone of my last post was a bit "what the hell is wrong with you guys". But I'm just doing my best Vers impersonation.
Let me explain. You often go against the masses and stick up for the underdog in a debate. I somewhat feel the need to do that here. There is such a pile on mentality with Farmer while Pettine gets a free pass on just about everything. I don't think that's right. Farmer is judged harshly while Pettine is handled with kid gloves.
Why does Farmer take the beating for Gilbert when it's been intimated that Pettine wanted him and Farmer did this for his coach? Did Farmer fail by listening to his coach if he didn't want to go that direction? Yes. Is Pett blameless? No way. But let's gang up on Farmer.
It was widely reported throughout training camp by a number of reporters that it didn't appear there was any purpose to training camp. A lot of standing around and not getting anything done. Why doesn't this get more traction? Because it's an anti-Pettine take and most people are "fine with Pett, fire Farmer". I got a newsflash for folks...Farmer didn't have anything hing to do with training camp.
People are not being balanced, fair, and objective in this. I think people just assume Farmer is the problem. But they both suck at the moment, and I don't think it's fair to pile on Farmer while excusing Pettine.
[/Vers]
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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I somewhat feel the need to do that here. There is such a pile on mentality with Farmer while Pettine gets a free pass on just about everything. Farmer picks the talent right? Hows the talent level look to you? Pettine doesn't get a free pass, but if I hand you a bucket of Poop, can you make it into steak? Probably not.
It was widely reported throughout training camp by a number of reporters that it didn't appear there was any purpose to training camp.
I read a FEW stories like that, but nothing nearly as damning as you make it seem. And you are not taking into consideration what the new TC League rules are. This isn't the 90's with Belichick making them run wind sprints up a hill. Things have changed. I think people just assume Farmer is the problem He's one of them. He does pick the talent they bring in and as of this moment, we missed the boat on some very talented guys. That wouldn't be bad if the guys he picked would have paid off. But thus far, few have. Yes, Farmer is the problem. I don't think there is any way around that. Dress it up all you want, he picks the players and the talent level in key positions just isn't there. I think you are referring to camp cupcake stuff right?
Last edited by Damanshot; 10/21/15 09:49 AM.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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You were one of the guys, but it wasn't just you. And I better clarify........you guys have been great on this thread. I'm just trying to keep it civil because there have been a lot of great points from many different perspectives. I actually like reading posts that disagree w/me, as long as the poster uses logic and reason rather than insults.
I think this latest post of yours brings up many interesting points. I like that you are arguing the underdog side. We need opinions like that to make it a truly enlightening debate. Keep championing your cause. Your thoughts make me think about the situation in a different light and that is a GOOD thing.
I just want to keep it civil. It's been really good thus far. I am just trying to facilitate. The thread started off w/some excellent comments at the very top. I thought....hey, this one has a chance.
Again, I don't think there are really any conclusive right or wrong determinations on a lot of our points. I think it's the thought processes and the analysis of the situations that are impressive.
Good post. Keep it up.
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Joined: Mar 2013
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~ Legend
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~ Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 18,204 |
Pettine doesn't get a free pass, but if I hand you a bucket of Poop, can you make it into steak? Probably not.
Pettine came to this job with 6 probowlers. He has one of the most talented offensive line groups in the NFL. He has some good defensive players. He doesn't have poop. He's so bad that he made them all regress.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
If Farmer had not whiffed on four first round picks (I know, that may not be totally fair to Shelton, but to date, none are helping), Pettine could be reasonably expected to have a wining record. It is also not fair to Erving. He was drafted as a Center, for insurance in case Mack was not fully healthy or in case Mack leaves next year. Everyone complains about an insurance policy until to need to collect on it. How about the fact that we drafted a backup center when there were other clear, gaping holes on the roster? At the time.. everyone was worried that the decline in the run game was due to Mack's injury, plus no one was sure how healthy Mack would be when he came back. Many were listing the Browns' needs as DL/C/WR/LB. So they drafted DL and C first 2 picks. Erving was the highest rated Center in the draft and had also played Tackle in College. Mack was always coming back this year. You don't take backup offensive linemen in the first round. It's really dumb. Also, yes Erving played tackle in college. He is not an NFL tackle.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Is O'Neil not an indictment of Pettine?
Man, Pettine is like the Teflon man on this board.
jf, keep in mind I don't want Pettine fired. If I could go back in time I would have fought for Chud even though he was awful. Plus, Chud lost the team which is really hard to come back from.
I don't want Pettine or Farmer fired. I want to give them help.
O'Neil is definitely an indictment of Pettine. I see replacing O'Neil as helping Pettine. And honestly until this past weekend, I didn't want Pettine fired, either... but his in-game moves and lack of accountability in press conferences are teetering closer to Butch Davis-level panic. His decisions flat out blew the game for us on Sunday. He doesn't have an upward trajectory. Let him finish the season IMO, because I don't know what the point of firing him now would be, but assuming things continue on their trajectory i don't see how you can keep him.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
--This is NOT a Teddy thread, but how can you bring up his stats while not mentioning that the qb we drafted BEFORE him can't even see the field? Just because one QB has not been successful yet does not make a different QB successful, or that he would have been a good choice for us.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Pettine doesn't get a free pass, but if I hand you a bucket of Poop, can you make it into steak? Probably not.
Pettine came to this job with 6 probowlers. He has one of the most talented offensive line groups in the NFL. He has some good defensive players. He doesn't have poop. He's so bad that he made them all regress. So let's see, Our first round choices under farmer have done What again? What receiver has he brought it to help whatever QB we rely on today? Hartline was a positive but beyond that, who? The Oline is pretty good. no question, but a line alone can't get it done. How about not going after Skrine? that's just a couple of examples but basically, he's missed the mark as far as I'm concerned.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,575
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,575 |
You simply CANNOT have 4 years’ worth of 1st round picks have so little impact on a team. I feel like this comment is a little misleading. I understand what you're trying to say--If we had one 1st round pick in the last four drafts, then yes it would look like this. That is not the case. Farmer's pick breakdown is not... 1st 1st rounder- 4th year in the league 2nd first rounder- 3rd year in the league 3rd first rounder- 2nd year in the league 4th first rounder- 6 games in. If this was the case and Gilbert and Manziel were 4th/3rd year veterans respectively with their current level of performance/starting issues, it would be more accurate and chances are Farmer would be gone by the end of this year, if not sooner. But that dynamic is much different. 1/2 first rounders- 2nd year in 3/4 first rounders- 6 games in. I think this is a more accurate representation than saying 4 years worth of picks, because it's not four years (in measurement of time) of anything. Anyways, I'm at the point where I don't have a strong opinion one way or another on what direction to go with this FO/coaching staff. Regarding Ray Farmer--I think he has made some good and bad moves: Good FA signings Karlos Dansby Tramon Williams Andrew Hawkins Bad FA signingsDwayne Bowe Ben Tate Rob Housler (although to a min. contract) Good non-signings/cutsDqwell Jackson Buster Skrine (based on $$ and Kwan Williams waiting in the wings) Jabaal Sheard, Ahtyba Rubin (both better 4-3 fits) Brian Hoyer Bad non-signing/cuts TJ Ward Dion Lewis Jordan Cameron (although Barnidge is making that less an issue) Regarding the drafts, the only bad pick I see right now is Justin Gilbert. Disclaimer: I don't believe you can have "bust" picks 4th round and beyond. That's not to say I don't think more won't end up being bad, it's just that it's too early. People calling Shelton a bust after six games or Irving a bust because he hasn't played yet? Nah, that doesn't calculate with me. I'm perfectly fine with Cam Irving at this point considering we may end up losing 40% of our line in the offseason-- he just needs to be good when he gets his chance. Now, Cam Irving and Shelton may end up busts, but I am far from conceding that at this point. Again, some good and some bad for a first time GM in Farmer. And some don't want to hear this but not much was left behind from the past regime--notably a 2013 draft which we might as well have just called in sick, an inconsistent/injured 5T and a spotty pass rusher. My point, there were many holes need to be filled once Farmer got promoted. One thing I really don't like seeing from Farmer is not retaining guys who fit our system. Letting guys like TJ Ward walk or trading Billy Winn seem like they did more bad than good and we have to make up for that stuff. Mack, Schwartz, Gipson, and others are on the slate and worth keeping. Outside of Mack pretty much having control of what he does next, I hope the team and keep most players. The coaching is perplexing for me because I was REALLY on board with what Pettine AND O'Neill were trying to do and was happy to drink that kool-aid. Now, that confidence has diminished greatly and my Kool-Aid is much more watered down. I don't know coaching one bit, and won't pretend to, but there is something different and I don't know what. I think MP has shown poor management of timeouts and situational football that have cost us points, even games. I hope he improves on them moving forward. In then end, I'm not in favor one way or another but the concept of continuity with a group that is essentially still green makes me slightly lean on keeping everyone. However, as the season goes on and we see more from coaches and players, that may change. Great post - even if I disagree with some of this. I think it's pretty darn straight forward. Everyone wants continuity .... No-one wants continuity just for the sake of continuity. . . . if you have bad personnel in place you HAVE to replace them. That is why I came around to accept and agree with letting Chud go. I think it was a tough decision for Haslam tomake - he knew the Browns would look like schlubs (again) but he had decided continuity with a bad HC was worse than taking the flack for changing after a single season. . . Memphis - where I disagree: Bad non-signings: I don't think Ward or Cameron were bad non-signings. Personally I think Ward is a great physical safety who is a great tackler and getting pressure - but a liability in coverage. If the defense was built and executed as the vision was (pressure the QB - CB's on an island defending 1 on 1 with receivers) he might have been a good fit here. But I just don't want to have such a one dimensional safety back there. With regard to Cameron - he's faster than Bainbridge and more agile. But hands are equal. Bainbridge is WAY less injury prone (huge imo) and a WAY better blocker. Lastly the Miami contract is insanely high. He is NOT worth that sort of $$$$. Last thing I disagree with is how much of a free pass Farmer gets on his drafting. I agree it's way too early to judge how JM, Shelton and Irving will pan out .... their impact for the team is minimal to date - think we can agree to that? . . . but you can still judge Farmer with a negative grade very easily - look at the talent that was available to him that he whiffed on. That's a very valid measuring stick. . . . As for Pettine - I personally think he deserves more time. No, he doesn't get a free pass. He has made mistakes and cost us games. He ran a soft camp. But I would like to see him given an opportunity to grow, learn, improve and believe he has HC ability. jmo
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Just offering a li'l help, mgh888
Our TE's name is Gary Barnidge. Seeing the name Bainbridge kinda threw me off for a minute.
Not busting your chops here at all... just lending an assist.
Also- really enjoying your posts.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,202 |
-I was all for giving Banner time. I really do think he was the smartest guy in the room. People say that as an insult, but I am not intimidated by smart people. I admire them. He had one year. Made some great moves. His only draft was not successful, This is where I need some understanding... Lombardi was actually the GM.. So was Banner and Lombardi drafting as a team ? Who made the final say ? The reason I bring this up... Farmer was here in "13" as the assistant GM... But exactly how much involvement was he given ?.... I'm not sure if Farmer really got much of a chance to learn much... Who would help teach him Lombardi ? Banner ? To me it seemed Ray was kind of on the back burner.. If that would be the case... I would say as scary as it sounds... to give him another shot. I think fairly it would give him the opportunity to show his ability or lack of to find talent. As far as Pet is concerned.. Listening to his latest presser.. The press couldn't get off the JM incident even tho Pet kept repeating that it was a private matter... I kind of felt bad for Pet because the press couldn't abide to his requests to get off the matter and talk about the game.. Pet came into a situation that most established HC's probably would have had a hard time dealing with... JM was a big problem last year and caused a big ass circus in Cleveland... And I feel Pet handled it and is still handling it very well... Pet has to stay focused on the whole team and not just one player..It has to be challenging for any coach to keep focused and handle personalities as JM.. I'm going to say something that absolutely turns my stomach... But I feel it has to do with making a point..Hear it goes... We are losing.. But we aren't getting blown away... not getting an embarrassing ass kicking week in and out. I hate losing and saying that we lost by a FG ... But the point that needs seen is we are close.. A GOOD draft away of maybe turning the close losses into wins. I honestly don't know what to say anymore or think what will turn this all around.. I'm at a point where being close... keeping everyone here and hoping for a GOOD draft is better than changing the HC or GM. It's to soon for myself to handle another search... Not like people are knocking at the door for a job here..And there's no guarantee things will improve.. If we were losing by 20 points every week it would most likely be best for a change.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,575
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 13,575 |
Hey - you can correct me any time I make mistakes. No problem ! You can even bust my chops and I won't mind! 
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
What receiver has he brought it to help whatever QB we rely on today? Hartline was a positive but beyond that, who? Hawkins and Gabriel seem to be pretty good... How about not going after Skrine? Could we have kept Skrine, yes. Maybe we offered him what we felt he was worth, and he went elsewhere? Would having Skrine really make us that much better? Williams has played very well this season, yes he's older, but it's not like losing Skrine is the reason we're losing..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
What receiver has he brought it to help whatever QB we rely on today? Hartline was a positive but beyond that, who? Hawkins and Gabriel seem to be pretty good... How about not going after Skrine? Could we have kept Skrine, yes. Maybe we offered him what we felt he was worth, and he went elsewhere? Would having Skrine really make us that much better? Williams has played very well this season, yes he's older, but it's not like losing Skrine is the reason we're losing.. Yes, Hawk and Gabe are pretty darn good, but not the Dez Bryant type of good. we had our chances at some pretty good receivers and we just flat out missed. Like I said, if what we picked instead was working out, I'd not have a leg to stand on in this discussion, but they haven't thus far.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583
Hall of Famer
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583 |
Look on the bright side Verse....No one has brought up Brian Hoyer in your thread yet. WOOPS..... 
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