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#1019374 10/20/15 08:57 PM
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Quote:


This won’t end well

Don't get emotionally attached to the Cleveland Browns








Before revisiting this week’s heartbreak, I would like to take just a moment and speak directly to the Cleveland Browns: I believe I can help you. I offer my services out of love, nothing else. I do not ask for money. I do not ask for an office. I do not ask for a business card, though if you want give me some cards that would be great. You could put the Browns’ logo on there, call me a consultant or something with more pizazz — we can work out the details later.

This would be my job: Whenever you score a touchdown, you would text me. Or you can call me. I could have a fun light-up orange phone installed in my house like Batman did on the old television show — I would even put the phone under a glass cake dome like he did. Point is: I promise to be available no matter where I happen to be.

You would then ask me: “Sir, should we go for two points here?”

I would say: “No. Do not go for two points here.”

And … that’s it. That would be my whole job, and I promise I would do it with enthusiasm and consistency, and I promise that it would prevent you from making the sort of $&#^#%^ decision that you #%@^#$^& made on Sunday against Denver.

Thank you for your consideration.

* * *

I suppose it was around the third or fourth time that the Browns lost the game to Denver on Sunday that my buddy Mike started to scream at me. New York Post columnist Mike Vaccaro and I have been friends for 25 years and over the time, we have supported each other through all sorts of trials and tribulations and St. Bonaventure losses. Only the depth of our friendship could have kept Mike outside in a car in the Citi Field parking lot, listening to a Browns-Broncos game on the radio.

With a minute or so left in the game, the Browns got the ball and the score was tied. After a completed pass, they moved the ball into Broncos territory. They needed about 15 more yards to have a real field goal chance to win the game.

“Look,” he said. “The Browns are going to win.”

I looked at my old friend sadly. He grew up a Jets fan and a Mets fan; he knows the pain of losing. But he does not know what I know.



On the next play, Josh McCown threw one of the most dismal and blatant interceptions that a human being can throw. And Mike lost it.

“What the (bleep) was that?” Mike shouted at me. “Why are you dragging me into your (bleeping) Browns insanity? What the (bleep) was that? And you know what the worst part is? You were out, man! You were totally out. Yeah, you grew up in Cleveland, you had to root for the team so you could have friends, but then you were out! Why would you VOLUNTARILY go back into this (bleep). Why?”

And then, he asked the most pertinent question of all.

“And why would you drag me into your Cleveland (bleep)?” he shouted.

I just looked at him and shrugged. What’s left to say, really? The Browns would lose this game a couple more times before it was over.

* * *

Peyton Manning is terrible now. This is a painful thing to say because Manning was such a joy to watch all these years, whether you were rooting for him or against him. He was this beautiful quarterbacking force of nature with all those gyrations and coded signals and guided missiles that seemed to bend around outstretched hands. His demise is confusing to watch, because the mind doesn’t quite register that Manning is truly terrible and keeps expecting him to just revert back to his previous brilliance, as if we could just click an “undo” button on the top left corner of his brain.

But there’s no undo button. He’s terrible. His arm is gone. His reflexes are gone. His sense of the game is, of course, intact, but when your arm and reflexes are gone, that doesn’t matter very much. Even if he can see the open receiver, he can’t get the ball there. Even if he can sense the opening, he can’t get through it. Even if he feels the rush around him, he crumples before it. His ageless mind is trapped in a 39-year-old body that has been battered for nearly two decades.

The Broncos have a ridiculously good defense and running backs and receivers. At this point, the one weakness teams can exploit is, yes, Peyton Manning. Denver is undefeated in spite of him.

And, make no mistake, it was Peyton Manning almost singlehandedly who kept the Cleveland Browns in a game they had no business being in. Well, there were a couple of drops by receivers, too. Still, it was mostly Manning. The Browns’ offense was overmatched. The Browns’ defense was overmatched. Early in the second quarter, Browns quarterback Josh McCown threw a horrendous pick-six to Aqib Talib to give the Broncos a 10-0 lead. The Broncos got the ball three more times before the half with a chance to put their foot on the Browns’ neck. On those three drives, Manning went 3-for-7 for 14 yards and the score was still 10-0 at halftime.

The game coughed and wheezed after that. The Browns scored a touchdown. The Broncos settled for a couple of field goals because Manning can no longer punch it into the end zone. The Browns somehow scored another touchdown to cut the Broncos’ lead to two, 16-14.

Then Manning dropped back to throw, awkwardly danced around and haphazardly flipped a pass to Ronnie Hillman that was instead picked off by Karlos Dansby, who returned it for a touchdown, Hillman could have caught it — you can’t blame Manning entirely — but it was an awkward pass from an awkward spot and precisely the sort of silliness that you almost never saw Peyton Manning commit.

Anyway, after that the Browns led, 21-16, with just a few minutes …

Sorry, they didn’t lead 21-16? They only led 20-16? What happened again?

Oh, yeah. I forgot.

* * *

Pause in the action: I would like to take just a moment and speak directly to the Cleveland Browns: I believe I can help you. Oh, wait, I did this bit already. So, let me explain. The Browns led by 20-16 with more than eight minutes remaining. They went for two. And it reminded me again: Football coaches should not do arithmetic. Ever.

Coach Mike Pettine explained his maneuver: He reasonably saw this is as a field goal game. The Broncos had not scored an offensive touchdown all game. Peyton Manning looked pretty useless. And with a successful two-point conversion, the Browns would be up six points instead of five, thus meaning that if the Broncos kicked two field goals they would only TIE the Browns rather than beat them. See?

There was also this mathematical atrocity:

“If you go up six and then you kick a field goal,,” Pettine said, “now you’re up nine, which makes it a two-score game on their part.”

Math is hard. I remember a few years ago when my friend Gunther Cunningham was coaching the Chiefs and utterly wasted a timeout. I don’t want to go over all the details, but let’s just say it was inarguable: The timeout was COMPLETELY WASTED. There was no counterargument. If he had not called timeout, the opponent would have had to run one play before the two-minute warning. Because he did call the timeout, the opponent had to run, yes, one play before the two-minute warning. It was like taking a timeout and throwing it into a fireplace.

Afterward, instead of just saying, “Yeah, total brain lock,” Gun tried to defend the timeout. And to do so, he unwittingly revealed that he thought football used a 35-second play clock instead of a 40-second play clock. See, coaches like Gunther Cunningham have PhD level understanding of things like blitzes and coverages. But you don’t want to delve too deeply into a coach’s grasp of simple things.

And when it comes to going for two points, coaches are really good at the simple math of seeing what a successful two-point conversion will accomplish. It goes without saying that it’s better to be up six points than five points, for more or less the reasons that Pettine suggests.

The trouble is: Coaches don’t counterbalance the greater than 50 percent chance of two-point conversion failure. In other words, Pettine failed to take in the equally obvious point that it is a lot better to be up five points than four points. When you’re up five points, and the other team scores a touchdown, you can win with a field goal. When you’re up four points and the other team scores a touchdown, you can only tie with a field goal.

This, of course, is exactly what happened.

The charts are interesting on this. The chart referenced shows that if the Browns were 49 percent sure they could convert on a two-point conversion, they should try it. The league percentage is close to that (47 or so percent) which means it’s a very close decision, and an aggressive coach might try.

But that’s for NORMAL teams. The Browns are 1-for-9 (11 percent) on two-point conversions since 2010 — a small sample size, yes, but decisive. They stink on two-point conversions and basically the math says they should never, ever go for two except in those absurdly obvious situations when it immediately determines victory or defeat.

I think that the rule of thumb for the Cleveland Browns should be: Take as many free points as you can get.

Two plays after the Browns’ stupid two-point failure, Peyton Manning had a youthful moment, threw a 75-yard-touchdown pass to Emmanuel Sanders, and the Broncos led, 23-20.

It should have been 23-21.

Cleveland Browns: Please just install that Bat Phone in my house.

* * *

The toughest part of rooting for a doomed team like the Browns is that they don’t lose games once. No, they lose them again and again and again, like a recurring nightmare. The Browns drove deep into Broncos territory in the last two minutes with a chance to punch in the go-ahead touchdown. They then ran a baffling series of plays that seemed designed to not score a touchdown, and they ended up kicking the game-tying field goal. So that’s one time they lost the game.

The Broncos got the ball back with 1:25 left, which would have been more than enough time for THE old Peyton but wasn’t nearly enough for AN old Peyton. He threw three incompletions (which included a nasty drop by Demaryius Thomas) and Denver punted the ball back to the Browns with more than a minute left.

Then the Browns lost the game again. McCown drove the Browns into Broncos territory and threw the interception that inspired Mike Vaccaro to yell at me. After a briefly interesting drive and a replay overturn, the Broncos stalled and the game went into overtime.

Let’s be clear about this: A great athlete has the right to go out any way her or she wants. They owe nothing to their legacy or to our overly nostalgic memories. It pains me to see Peyton Manning play football like this, but it’s his life and his career, and he should follow his heart on this. Hey, the Broncos are undefeated, and he has occasional flashbacks to better days, and maybe that’s enough for him. Maybe he’s enjoying this year more because he knows the end is near and he’s taking the time to experience everything fully.

But in overtime, watching Peyton Manning throw one of the worst interceptions I have ever seen — a floaty, silly, bloop of a pass that I guess he was trying to throw over the head of Cleveland’s Barkevious Mingo — I thought of the wistful sadness of Longfellow’s poem, “Nature.”

“So Nature deals with us, and takes away

Our playthings, one by one, and by the hand

Leads us to rest so gently, that we go

Scarce knowing if we wish to go or stay”

OK, no, I didn’t really think of that poem at all. I thought, “Hey the Browns are on the Denver 39 and just need a field goal to win this game. Am I mad? Are the Browns actually going to win?”

I laugh at my younger self.

First play: Robert Turbin run for minus-3.

Second play: Josh McCown sacked for minus-8.

Third play: Josh McCown sacked for minus-3.

Fourth play: Delay of game for minus-5.

Fifth play: Punt.

I’d have been better off thinking about Longfellow. I reached for the car door to leave and Mike said, “Wait, we have to wait to see how it turns out.” Like there was a doubt. We sat through the inevitable Broncos 12-play drive and Denver’s 34-yard field goal that ended things.

Mike immediately tweeted:



Yes. We all have been here before, right?

http://sportsworld.nbcsports.com/browns-lose-broncos-overtime-of-course/


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Well said!

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Got a good laugh when I read that earlier ..

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Just curious what this guy wrote the week before when we beat the Ravens in Baltimore of course in OT.

I think one of the easiest things for a journalist to do is Pee on the Browns after they lose.

I can go to every loss of just about every game during the week and tear apart the losing team on MONDAY QUARTERBACKING on little things that cost a team to lose.

But we make for a good read...many people love the Browns and many are frustrated like heck. Me too even though I don't opine it. But it is so so easy to pee on us.

Guess that is why I love you guys/gals cause after its all said and done we still love our Browns.


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Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!

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It's the frequency in which we lose.

Double-digit losses just about every year.

I think the Browns just might be the worst franchise in all of sports...at least in terms of success.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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At least we didnt do whatever that thing the Colts did was...

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Originally Posted By: Arps
At least we didnt do whatever that thing the Colts did was...


That's not exactly a silver lining, more like aluminum, but that isn't too bad, for us.


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Quote:
it is so so easy to pee on us.


That's why we stink.


"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Piling on that 2 point conversion attempt is getting old. It wasn't a bad decision. It wasn't a good decision. It was about as neutral of a decision as you'll ever see in that situation. That is, kicking the extra point and going for two would give almost identical probabilities to win the game. In fact it's so close, I'm not even sure which one is better.

One assumption and some data to follow:

My assumption here is that we are trying to maximize the probability to win the game:

- We're not trying to avoid embarrassing situations
- I count winning one game due to an aggressive decision and losing one game due to an aggressive decision to be exactly neutral. Some might disagree and weigh losses due to aggressive decisions as more than the equivalent number of wins due to aggressive decisions
- We only consider what is known at the time of the decision. We don't know whether or not our two point conversion will be successful. If we did, we could always make the right decision.

Dick Vermeil's two point conversion chart suggests to go for 2 when up by 4. However, this is old and out of date, and the biggest limitation is that it doesn't factor time remaining in the game, which is often an important consideration.

Football commentary has a more up to date chart that includes time remaining: http://www.footballcommentary.com/twoptchart.htm

This suggests that the 'breakeven' point is converting 48-49% of the time. However, this was made before the new extra point rule, which has dropped extra point attempts from 99% to about 95% so far. So I'd say that as a rough estimate, the breakeven point in that situation for a 2 point attempt is 46-47%. The article says league average is 47%, although I think it is actually 50% over the last five years.

The writer mentions the Browns being 1 for 9 on 2 point tries since 2010. He correct acknowledges the small sample size, but then absurdly calls that decisive! What!? 1 for 9 is not decisive of anything that close to a coin flip proposition, especially not over a 5 year period with different players, different coaches, etc.

I would admit that the quality of the Broncos defense certainly lowers the probability of making a two point try. This is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that weak teams should be more aggressive against better teams (and the records clearly indicate the Broncos are a better team.) You do this to create variance, the idea being that a wave of good luck so to speak leads to better chances of winning for a weaker team although that is only a tiny consideration in a two point try like this (it would be a bigger factor on a key fourth down that could go either way, for example.)

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I can't believe we can't run it in from a yard out.

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We can go backwards 18 with no problem.


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Originally Posted By: clevesteve
I can't believe we can't run it in from a yard out.

Good point.. I think teams should run on two point conversions more often.

There's some good data here about two point success rates re: run vs pass: http://archive.advancedfootballanalytics.com/2010/12/almost-always-go-for-2-point.html

The data is from 2000-2009; running plays were successful on two point conversions more than 60% of the time and designed runs given to the RB were successful over 57% of the time. Of course there is some bias there, e.g. teams will be more likely to run vs certain packages and certain looks. It's not like it's universal. But even still, from the one yard line I'd rather default to a power running game than spreading it out from the gun.

There's also an interesting idea there, especially now that extra points have been moved back. That is just defaulting to going for two every time. It gets pretty complicated though depending on the score. Like if the game is tied, you score a touchdown, what do you do? If you miss, the other team can just kick the extra point and take the lead. It depends a lot on how high your conversion rate is (with new rules it would have to be >48%) and how much time is left in the game. If you make it, the other team would still have the chance to go for two after a touchdown and tie. That is like the reverse scenario of being down 14 late in the game, scoring a touchdown, and going for two (which should be standard by the way.)

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Personally I like the aggressive decision to go for 2. What I dont like is the play choice. Too many things can go wrong throwing the ball there. Line up, bulldoze it in. Let our guys fight for it.

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great find, gopher. thanks.

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So if we kick the XP and then Denver wins by 1, are people this upset we DIDNT go for 2?


Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
So if we kick the XP and then Denver wins by 1, are people this upset we DIDNT go for 2?


Probably. We have to have SOMETHING to focus on in a loss, afterall wink


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
So if we kick the XP and then Denver wins by 1, are people this upset we DIDNT go for 2?

Doubtful.

It seems like people get more upset about losing a game due to the direct effects of being aggressive and it backfiring than they are the often more indirect effects of being passive and losing because of it.

There is the philosophy of "don't chase points" or "only go for it when you absolutely have to", ideas that I find silly. Some examples to show this:

I already wrote about the 2 point conversion in the Denver game. I genuinely believe that was about a breakeven decision. At worst it was a tiny mistake, and you can only even arrive at that conclusion after adjusting for the teams' personnel. But I don't care what he does either way there really, but he has gotten roasted by a lot of people for that decision. And in extremely close decisions, if a coach always wanted to default to the traditional way of doing things (kicking the extra point there), I don't really care because again the edge is so small either way.

But take that "don't chase the points" philosophy and put it into other situations, and it completely breaks down. Scoring in football is not linear; there are situations where one point is far more valuable than another point. The most obvious is to get to a tie game. If you're down by 2 points, it should be immediately obvious to go for two with the possible exception of early in the game. No scoring or trading scores keeps the score differential where it's at. 3 and 7 are obviously a couple other important numbers.

Yet I have seen coaches kick an extra point in that situation (down by two, pending a PAT try) as late as about 15 minutes left in the game. Pat Shurmur was one of those who made this boneheaded decision, I believe it was against the Eagles and the Browns indeed went on to lose by a point. That was an egregiously bad decision, borderline unforgivable in my opinion, yet there wasn't as much uproar about it as there was this one. There are obviously situations where a team will go for two in that spot, miss it, and lose the game because of it. Yet those situations combined are probably only a quarter as likely as losing the game because you could have just went for two, succeeded, and went on to win the game because of it, yet the team didn't actually go for it.

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i knew it was not going to end well when i saw this.



being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Originally Posted By: pblack18707
i knew it was not going to end well when i saw this.



Watching it again, I still think he was trying to throw it away and he didn't get enough on it because he was about to get popped.


Last in, first out, the sign of a true champion!
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I hate asking this, because it is almost insulting the intelligence of the posters who have replied to the article, but does anyone get what the author's intent was?

Do you think it is piling on the Browns because we are such an easy target?

Do you think it is about the two point conversion?

Seriously?

If y'all want me to explain the author's purpose, I will. I just thought it was rather obvious.

Perhaps I overestimated the reading comprehension of our board members?????

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"Perhaps I overestimated the reading comprehension of our board members?????"

LOL! YOU THINK?

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Sssshhhhhh...........I am probably going to get into trouble for saying that. angel

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I hate asking this, because it is almost insulting the intelligence of the posters who have replied to the article, but does anyone get what the author's intent was?

Do you think it is piling on the Browns because we are such an easy target?

Do you think it is about the two point conversion?

Seriously?

If y'all want me to explain the author's purpose, I will. I just thought it was rather obvious.

Perhaps I overestimated the reading comprehension of our board members?????

It seems like you are really driving your thoughts home on that 2 point conversion thing. It's right there in your good, bad, ugly thread under the 'ugly' heading. You have a couple posts about it in the 'post game thoughts' thread. And it's dwelled upon repeatedly in the article posted here. So I guess you're going to have to excuse me if I mistook your intentions on this one.

What was the author's overriding message? I took at as to be a much longer version of Hoarddawg's post here: https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1018850/re-post-game-thoughts#Post1018850

What do you think the author's purpose was?

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I didn't agree w/the 2 point conversion at that point of the game. I did acknowledge that there were some charts out there that had 4 on the list. Vermiel's was the one I was referring to. I just didn't agree w/our decision at the time because of our defense being so porous this year. I am not saying I am right about that, but that is just my opinion.

Now, about the author's purpose. Sure, I'll answer that one.

The author is an older guy. Professional writer. Life-long Brown's fan. He works in another market. Hears grief from his colleagues and all he is associated with for sticking w/the Browns all these years. It's about loyalty w/him, just as it w/many of us. We are the kinda guys you do wanna walk down a dark ally with. We won't abandon you. We'll stick w/you through thick and thin, no matter what the odds are.

The article was meant to be humorous. It's gallows humor, if you will. It's meant to demonstrate the amount of loyalty that us Brown's fans have. The world can scoff at our team. We can watch bad move after bad move. We really can't defend our team's decisions w/logic, but we still remain fans of our teams despite overwhelming evidence and pressure not to be a fan of the team.

I've read this guy's articles before. Research him. He talks of Red Right 88 and elaborates on Sipe while bemoaning a loss to Oakland.

He's a freaking fan. It hurts him that his team sucks. But, no matter what..........he'll always be a fan of the Browns. He deals w/it by resorting to gallows humor.

I thought it was pretty evident. Perhaps not????

Edit...........and I am sorry for the reading comprehension comment. That wasn't necessary.

Last edited by Versatile Dog; 10/21/15 09:46 PM.
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I had never even heard of the guy before and read through the piece quickly, so no, I would not say his intent was all that obvious to me. I did pick up on it some of the humor of course, and I'm not one to get offended because my favorite team full of players who I've never met can't seem to close out a game.

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It's okay and I am sorry if my first post was insulting. It came out wrong. I'm sorry.

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No worries. I didn't really think much of it to begin with.

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1. I don't really care about what has happened in 1999 - 2014. I mean I care but I don't glom that on this team of 2015.

Peyton Manning is terrible now.

The author started a paragraph in his Novella about the Browns being Crapolla.

Like that is the reason we should have won...meanwhile he is undefeated this season so far. as in no losses.

just saying.



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Yep!

247 yards passing a game. 7 td's with 10int's.

Yep, it's Peyton winning those games!

He threw 3 int's against the Browns!

No wonder we couldn't beat this guy!


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I think that Manning's performance and how bad Denver's offense has been this year was somewhat lost when we have been analyzing the game.

I know I was guilty of it in my The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly thread. I talked about how much better our defense was, but I think we need a bit of caution, because Manning and Denver's offense stinks. Their OL is a mess right now.

We'll see how our defense does moving forward. Luckily, the Rams offense is also pretty bad.

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Originally Posted By: Cincy_Dawg
"Perhaps I overestimated the reading comprehension of our board members?????"

LOL! YOU THINK?


we all cant be Mensa members like some of you.


#gmstrong

A smart person knows what to say.

A wise person knows whether or not to say it.
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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Yep!

247 yards passing a game. 7 td's with 10int's.

Yep, it's Peyton winning those games!

He threw 3 int's against the Browns!

No wonder we couldn't beat this guy!


Thats it go into your pretend world as if you are actually debating or discussing this with me. Stats...its Manning just like he came out and hit that 80 yarder??? for a TD I know he just sucks and has nothing to do with wins.

But my point is very simple. Maybe you and others think we should have won that game easily cause Manning is BAD. The author stated it so.

My point is that Manning has been bad all season and yet there he is undefeated as a starting QB this season. We should have beat Denver cause Manning is Bad...well what about the other 5 teams?

That is my point so you can pull all the stats out of your ass that you want. It don't change what I'm talking about.

Right away its OH lets make Eotab look stupid for what he said


The author started a paragraph in his Novella about the Browns being Crapolla.

Like that is the reason we should have won...meanwhile he is undefeated this season so far. as in no losses.

just saying.


Just because you have no logical retort to what I stated no need to pretend you are debating my position with some nonsense stats.

Let me also put it another way...McCown's stats blow Manning away - but if we had Manning instead of McCown we would be 4-2 or maybe even better. Football is not stats.

jmho


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They are undefeated because they have the best defense in the league..

But they only have the best defense in the league obviously because they have Manning..

Because according to you, if he was here, ours would be playing better?

We aren't losing because of offense.


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I used perfect logic. In our game he threw 3 int's and we still lost.

You may wish to look at those great juggernaut teams that they beat and the scores. They've played mediocre teams and squeaked by. That's what winning teams do. They have a great D an a QB who simply made a mistake coming back this year.

And say what you will, I predicted the score would be 27-24 in the prediction thread. No matter how hard Denver tried to hand us the win, we gave it away.

Your point? He made one great pass where we had zero help over the top.

My point? He threw three int's.

NEXT!


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Well at least I got out that - you can count up to 3 naughtydevil


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Quote:
Because according to you, if he was here, ours would be playing better?


Are you on drugs? How the heck did you get that out of what I said?

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Has the Broncos defense faced a really good offense this season?
Its not a murders row of QB's they have gone up against.

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I don't see why we don't make the 2 pt conversion the purview of Manziel. Run a read option with receivers in the end zone. The D will respect Johnny's legs, which should open up at least one receiver.

Before the new extra point rule, I was flabbergasted as to why Manziel wasn't the holder on XPs. He's the perfect threat in that situation!


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That's a pretty good idea.

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Originally Posted By: Brownie_Dawg
I don't see why we don't make the 2 pt conversion the purview of Manziel. Run a read option with receivers in the end zone. The D will respect Johnny's legs, which should open up at least one receiver.

Before the new extra point rule, I was flabbergasted as to why Manziel wasn't the holder on XPs. He's the perfect threat in that situation!


Because don't you know they, well, have a plan for him.

Just ask Mike.


LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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