DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity---Take Two

Stop ducking the question. Name specific players who can start for another team. Otherwise, your response is invalid. Thanks.

BS. I'd even argue that Farmer made the roster worse than the one he inherited. Well over 60% of this 53 roster was signed by him. It's mostly his team stinking it up. And he was the only GM who had 4 first rd picks to work with in his first two drafts. He can't spot talent to save his life.

He could have Carr or Bridgewater at QB

He could have ODB, Matthews, M.Bryant, A.Robinson as his no1 WR

He could have a dozen young RB starting that are better than what he got

The OL was already 4/5 in place. He made the front 7 worse, investing a lot of resources doing so.

As Cousin Eddie would say. "Bingo!"

The entire offensive line, Barnidge, Haden, D. Bryant, Gipson, T. Williams, K. Williams, and more.

I was mostly joking about the fact that all of the people who have run this team in the past have been terrible as well.

Here is my issue with Pettine. He doesn't seem to have that commanding presence that winning coaches in the NFL have. Here are some examples:

Coaches with that commanding presence:

Billichik
Tomlin
Coughlin
Marty Schottenheimer
Cowher
Parcels


Coaches without that commanding presence:

Pettine
Rex Ryan
Pagano
Philbin
Shurmur
Chud
Crennel

Coincidence or trend?

It seems like you are just picking coaches who have won and are saying they are commanding. If Pettine was 5-2 instead of 2-5, then people would be saying he is stoic and unflappable.

If Pettine was 7-0 I wouldn't be saying he had that presence about him.

Campbell with Miami has that presence.
Both Harbaughs have it.
Urban Meyer has it.

Name me some coaches and I'll tell you but I think it is pretty self evident with most coaches.

I don't think I'm brilliant.. just that everything you said is.. well, fairly obvious. We need a GM that drafts talented players, we need a stable high end QB... etc.. this isn't new. Actually doing it is proving far more difficult however.

If you are asking me who I think that GM is or who that QB is.. I have no idea. If they start paying me 7 figures I'll put more time into finding out. I don't think I could do much worse.

Seems pretty arbitrary.

We have very solid NFL talent on this team. The problem is that we lack playmakers. We don't have those players that other teams have to spend time planning against.

This is the major problem with this team right now.

No one on the Browns offense keeps defensive coaches up late.Benjamin is the closet resemblance to a playmaker. Gabriel has regressed.Brian Hartline can't separate. Duke Johnson is shifty but not a burner at the 2nd level.

As Usual emotions are running high after yet another throttling.

Some things we know at this juncture.

1- McCown isn’t the reason we are losing but he is a part of the reason
McCown throughout his career has been a fumbler, due in no small part to holding the ball too long. More often than not he is late with his throws. But still he isn’t the sole reason for our loses and has had stretches where he played exceptionally well.

The near total lack of a running game doesn’t help. But in order to run the ball you have to try to run the ball. Still I like Flip I think he has done well with his game plans and calls.

The lack of discipline has me wanting to move away from Pet. That is pure and simple coaching, coaching and more coaching.

2- The defensive scheme is horrid. I don’t care where it came from or who runs it, it simply stinks.

The Ryan defense isn’t nearly as aggressive as advertised. And while they (FO and coaching staff) were able to sell the fan base on the idea that our problems came from the NT position that simply is and wasn’t true.

That fact is probably the most alarming to me because it means that the FO and staff can’t see what is in front of their faces. I watched the games last year and I clearly saw that we were getting gashed on the edges, so we draft a NT and wahla we still can’t stop the run. I wonder why my confidence in these folks is shaken.

This thread is about continuity and when folks talk about that ingredient they associate that with the FO and coaching staff and leave out continuity from the player side.

Of course the fans don’t remember but last year this defense sucked to start the year it was the offense that led us to our early season success and yes our late season losses. But still it took time for the defense to get it together.

Point being we let Skrine, Sheard, Winn, Kitchen go along with Rubin and to a lesser Taylor. We replaced these guys with aging vet’s and started over again. Combine that with Gipson and Haden missing extensive playing time and you have the Browns defense the lack of continuity we all place so much stock in but seldom associate with the players and the schemes they play in.

Simply put we need continuity in scheme and in players to know success. Which leads me to what were they thinking. You can absorb change in personnel but not at the pace this FO has set. Wholesale changes lead to losing on Sunday.

This fan has said enough for now. I leave you with this.

I hate losing it leaves me angry and grates me the wrong way. But folks I knew and know this was coming the strategy used by these guys is all wrong and continues to be the gun going off detaching limbs as it goes off.

I had us down for a 2-14 season in no small part because I thought McCown would be that bad and I was wrong and I was right McCown continues to turn the ball over, but the main reason we continue to lose is because this FO and staff places little value on player continuity. They think that all issues are generated from poor talent or lacking talent and it don’t it comes from and is a byproduct of player turn over and they have set the deck to do exactly the same thing next season.

Their failure to recognize the problems in the past gives me little hope for the future.

Continuity is only good if the right people are in place and progress is very evident.
I see neither.
Farmer has missed drafting impact players in the draft. Hitting on a couple undrafted college players doesn't make you a great GM.
He could have drafted Odell Beckham. Had 2 chances to draft DEREK CARR.
anybody see his 2015 stat line lately. 1014 yards. 11 TDs 2 INTs.101 rating.
what does Farmer do..draft Bitonio.

Pettine is trying to hard to be a players coach. giving vets a day off. Players getting a sense of entitlement.
the whole thing is a trainwreck.
Haslam I predict will clean house in the off season

Itll be awesome when we get a couple more new guys that dont know what they are doing and have to start all over again...

His eyes have no intensity. That's where the gauge is for curmudgeons. To take a page from Donald Trump, Pettine seems like a low energy guy.

"Solid" may be debatable.

...agree about no playmakers nor worries created for other teams. I do not think that is the "major" problem.

The franchise has appreciated by 500 million since new ownership, which is the focus of the franchise leadership (Alec and JH). That is the major problem which permeates everything on down. Alec is the only one Jimmy trusts (other than those in Tennessee).

Look at the sideline of various teams. Example Pittsburgh - who is clearly in charge? Tomlin. Easy to see. Same with those others that I mention. If Tomlin says to do something you can't imagine a player doing anything except saying "Yes sir".

You look at our sideline and if you didn't know Pettine was the HC you wouldn't know that he is the boss. You get the feeling that when he tells the players to do something they think about it and say "Eh, I guess so" or "I'll get around to it".

Just my impression.

I disagree with your impression. Pet looks firmly in control IMO...

Cleveland Browns in Blunder Land under General Manager Ray Farmer: Bill Livingston

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Like little Alice, the Browns have gone "Through the Looking Glass," into a world where nothing is quite what it seemed to be.

"Through the Looking Glass," or mirror, is the sequel to "Alice in Wonderland."

Say, let's call the Browns' territory Blunder Land!

The record doesn't indicate it, but in some ways, the Browns have been a surprise. They are not the dregs of the league some commentators thought they would be. Nor are they contenders. No, no, a thousand times no.

No, no, no, no!

And speaking of no, if you say "no" once every second for 16 waking hours every day, you will say "no" 57,600 times a day.

It would then take you a little more than 156 days, or over five months, to say "no" once for every dollar (nine million of them) in the guaranteed portion of the contract of General Manager Ray Farmer's biggest free-agent acquisition, Dwayne Bowe.

Bowe's numbers so far: Two games, in which he was targeted one time in each, no catches, no yards, no rushes, no kick returns, no nothing.

Club Trillion

In a basketball box score, a player who appears in a game, no matter if it is only for one second, receives credit for one minute. If he contributes, as the scorekeepers say, "zeroes across" in all the categories, he is called a trillionaire (for a line of, with commas added, 1,000,000,000,000).

Mark Titus, a former walk-on basketball player at Ohio State, wrote a funny and insightful blog called "Club Trillion" about his experiences.

Dwayne Bowe doesn't write or, apparently, do anything for his game-day trillion.

Even Keith Hernandez was better

A couple of readers asked me recently to rethink my characterization of former Indian Keith Hernandez's dismal, disgraceful play in the 1990 season. I considered him to be the biggest con man, loafer and unrepentant deadbeat in Cleveland sports in the more than 30 years I've been writing this column.

Hernandez had 130 at-bats in 1990. He hit .200 with two doubles and a home run. He drove in eight runs and scored seven. Keith Hernandez had Ruthian, steroidal, Bondsian numbers, compared to Bowe.

But that's the way it is on the other side of the looking glass. Things don't go as planned.

Farmer's other top free agent pickup, cornerback Tramon Williams, was flagged for being offside when San Diego missed a last-play game-winning field goal. On the do-over, the Chargers made it.

The only time Peyton Manning looked like Peyton Manning was when he threw a 75-yard touchdown pass, which eventually led to an overtime Denver victory against the Browns. The victim on the play was Williams.

Williams has a three-year contract with $10 million guaranteed.

Williams is not Bowe, though. Who is?

Draft debacles

As for the drafts Farmer has directed, alleged cornerback Justin Gilbert can't play the position well enough to be trusted. He was drafted 14 spots higher than critical magnet Johnny Manziel.

Gilbert is contributing in a much reduced role as a kick returner. It is faint praise, but he is doing a solid job there.

The 2014 season was low-lighted by the micro-managing general manager's admission that he had texted coaches during games, a violation of NFL rules.

As for the 2015 draft, offensive lineman Cam Erving -- who's not Julius Erving and not Kyrie Irving -- might replace center Alex Mack, provided Mack's struggling performances thus far in coming back from a broken leg allow him to receive lucrative contract offers.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be a lot more fun waiting for next year with Kyrie, to see if he can stay healthy and help the Cavaliers gain the NBA championship they would have won except for injuries.

Danny Shelton, the top pick in the 2015 draft, plays in the middle of the line for a run defense that usually ranks as the worst in the league.

Pettine's place

I could go on about how the defense can't stop the run and the Browns have not exactly unleashed the next Jim Brown in their own running game. That goes on coach Mike Pettine, but it's hard to see how he has the tools to succeed.

On the positive side, quarterback Josh McCown has been considerably better than expected, although he has taken a ferocious beating, mostly because the line has at times looked as overmatched on offense as it does on defense.

Hitchin' a ride?

Since Farmer came back from his four-game suspension for texting, he hasn't talked to the media or even been seen much.

On the bright side, it's nice that he can use his thumbs for things other than twiddling. A thumb could come in handy when it's time to leave town.

http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/inde...ml#incart_river

At this point, most GMs aren't saying much.

I am not sticking up for the guy, but what is he supposed to be saying?

Maybe they are grooming Pettine to be the next Butch.

I would hope not.
Pet has his hands full with the job he already has.

Yeah, it didn't work out to well for Butch either.

thats pretty close to saying he set pettine up to fail. better be careful. might get called a troll.

I don't believe that is what eo is saying. And why would he try to do that anyway? Doesn't make any sense...

I agree,, Look how effectively he taught his guys to fumble the ball... I mean that takes serious coaching skills.


OK,, I'm kidding..

Gotta admit, that was pretty darn funny.

I wrote this as a reply to Clem on the Manziel thread, but really, both of our posts fit much better on this thread.

The point is the GM doesn't say much during the season. The coach does. As it transitions in to the off season, the ratio changes.

LOL...........this place is crazy. It's like people prefer bickering and nonsensical posts over the good stuff. Every time I make a post that I feel will really elicit some thought provoking responses, it gets ignored.

Okay, let's just insult each other and not have an intelligent conversation.

This is the best. Trumpish in its lack of awareness.

^^ THIS ^^

It's so hard to read the board and near impossible to post in.

Well, help me out here. LOL

I made that reply to an excellent post that Clem made in the Manziel thread. Our takes were opposite, but I think both were thought-provoking.

I was hoping he would address my counter-argument to his original post. That's what good debate is all about. Seeing both sides of the situation. It's not about who is right and who is wrong. It's about analyzing, evaluating, and then reassessing the situation as you look at it from multiple perspectives.

I know you are one who thinks that we should strive for continuity and I know you can debate w/intelligence. Please oppose my points. I am not looking for anyone to agree w/what I am saying. I'm just looking for intelligent debate.

I was simply agreeing that this place is crazy. It is like people prefer bickering, nonsensical posts, wise-cracks and personal attacks in lieu of actually having meaningful discussions.

Way too many posters who know nothing speak as though they believe they have some deep understanding and will argue a stupid point with anyone who will argue with them, and there are plenty.

My response that the board is hard to read is just a fact to me for the above mentioned reasons. It's also hard to post on for the same reasons, being, it seems few really want to have a discussion as opposed to childish banter which is no conversation at all.

In so far as me being one who thinks we should strive for continuity, you are right. But there are a lot of qualifiers that must be met to keep that continuity going with the current crew. Unfortunately, I don't think enough time has elapsed yet to judge those qualifying characteristics/job performances to make a determined decision on that. Perhaps by season's end more will reveal itself giving more to go on. At this point, to me, it's too early to start poking with the pointing finger.

To name specific qualifiers and then to back-up those points would have me making a long-winded post which would also include explanations to the childish banter crowd who really don't want to know. All of which I'm not prepared to do at this time due to the reasons given in my first paragrah.

I think there's a verse in the Bible about tossing pearls before swine. I think it means that the swine don't know how to appreciate the pearls so one would be wasting his time.

Now I appreciate that you and a handful of other "old-timers" still try to maintain a semblance of a useful board as it used to be, but I watch in agony as you guys struggle to converse with the 3rd Graders. To me, at least at this point, it's a waste of time. It's been that way for a couple of years now.

The whole issue reminds me of a verse from the old song, "The Boys Are Back In Town" by Thin Lizzy:

And that time over at Johnny's place,
Well, this chick got up and she slapped Johnny's face
Man, we just fell about the place
If that chick don't want to know, forget her