DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 6 - Rams 24 Post Game Comments

I wish our D played like the Rams D

Meanwhile, rookie OLB Kikaha has 4 sacks and 3 forced fumbles for the Saints. He was on the board when the Browns were on the clock in the 2nd round, so was rookie CB phenom Darby. Farmer traded down for a 4th he wsted on WR Mayle and then took OLB Orchard.

Just another Farmer...

Regarding Kirksey, he's a very good coverage LB but lacks the needed physicality to play inside in a 3-4. I always see him get dragged for more yds by runners. He won't give you run stops on obvious running downs, that's why he was platooned with Robertson when he was healthy. He's one of a long list of Famer picks that are situational players.

Xavier Cooper is another one. He was a good pick in the end of the 3rd and when the plan is to rotate your DL, than that's ok for a situational talent. It makes much less sense to pick such a player 12th overall.
Cooper is not good against the run, but he's in there because the rest of the front 7 can't get to the QB. Kirksey is a bad blitzer, so to get some kind of penetration inside, they gamble with Cooper. Now if the opponent decides to run, you have a bad run player at DT and ILB. Now you know why we suck at defending anything....lack of three down talent and the consequence of bad events when you have to gamble with situational players on the field from down to down. That's also why there's so much turnover on the front 7. The idea is to "confuse" the opponent, but in reality, any good QB can pick that apart by changing plays at the line and getting his team into favorable matchups

If we're not the worst team in the nfl right now, not exactly sure who else would be on the same level of shame and pathetic as us.

That's my post game comment..

Houston. They have a cast off QB of ours starting, a back up QB that can't make a charter flight, a RB with a torn achilles, and a coach that looks lost for answers.

j/c:

Cleveland Browns

– Josh McCown (-0.8) did not push the ball downfield, outside of one pass that was called back due to a hold. McCown did not attempt a single pass over 20 yards, and only seven of his 32 pass attempts went beyond 10 yards. McCown was very accurate with his targeted passes; out of his six incompletions, only three of those resulted from poor throws. While McCown only missed on three passes, he did very little with the throws he made, because the Browns where consistently in long down and distance; the Rams gave up the short play and consistently made the tackle short of the sticks.

– First round pick Danny Shelton had the best game of his young career. While nothing showed up on the stat sheet, he was able to take on blockers and cause issues in the middle, forcing very little success when the point of attack was either middle-left or middle-right; the Rams only gained 17 yards on these two points of attack.

– With the Browns’ passing attack struggling to push the ball down the field, rookie RB Duke Johnson (+2.6) had room to work out of the backfield. Johnson averaged 10 yards after the catch, working well to find creases in the Rams’ defense. The only other player who had any success in the passing game was Gary Barnidge (+2.4). Barnidge gained 101 yards on six receptions. Seemingly the norm now with Barnidge, the tight end was able to come down with another great catch. On a pass that was overthrown, he was able to tip the ball up to himself to gain 20+ yards.

Top performers:

DL Randy Starks (+4.3)
P Andy Lee (+2.6)
SS Donte Whitner (+2.4)
TE Gary Barnidge (+2.4)
LB Chris Kirksey (+1.5)

Ha. Our punter got the second highest grade on the team. I know he is really good and all, but this is still funny/sad/ frustrating/whatever.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/10/26/stl-cle-grades-gurley-shows-value-in-rams-win/

Gurley's contribution to their first 7 points - 0 yards
Gurley's contribution to their next 3 points - 2 yards

The game was essentially over at this point unless you think Gurley is the reason we only had 6 points... and at this point, he was 3 rushes for -2 yards...

Early in the 2nd quarter he had a run of 14 yards, that was their only first down and they were forced to punt..
Later in the 2nd quarter he had consecutive runs of 6, 5, 15 and we forced a fumble...
At the end of the 2nd quarter he had a run of 12 yards and they missed a FG...
In the 3rd quarter he had a 48 yard run and they missed a FG

Gurley's contribution to their next 7 points - 1 yard (TD)

In their final drive he had some yards including the 16 yard TD run but the game was pretty much over at that point...

None of Gurleys runs were particularly relevant in them building their lead, TOP we won by over 11 minutes so it's not like he was sitting on the ball for them... he didn't force turnovers, he didn't keep us out of the red zone, he didn't hold us to 6 points...

So Gurley put up a bunch of numbers, maybe you can enlighten me into how they were so damaging and led to us losing.


McCown has largely been the same guy on rosters conducted by many different people.. He was this guy with Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitgerald in Arizona, he was this guy with Brandon Marshall in Chicago, he was this guy with Mike Evans and Vincent Jackson in Tampa Bay... I'm not too down on him, he is what he is... which is not a difference making QB who has the skill set to look really good under some circumstances but those circumstances really need to be stacked in his favor.


McCown has 5 in the last 2 games, and that's not potential turnovers, that's ACTUAL turnovers.. that's about 80 dropbacks. That's considered a trend or a pattern.

And my point was not so much a pro-Manziel point as it was a.. if McCown is going to turn the ball over 2 or 3 times a game, then one of the advantages he was supposed to have, is gone. And I can do this math..

Turnovers against the Jets - 5 Bad loss, Forced 1
Turnovers against the Rams - 4 Bad loss, Forced 1
Turnovers against the Broncos - 3 Close loss, Forced 3
Turnovers against the Raiders - 2 Loss, Forced 1
Turnovers against the Chargers - 1 Close loss, Forced 0
Turnovers against the Titans - 0 Win, Forced 3
Turnovers against the Ravens - 0 Win, Forced 0

We operate on a very small margin of error... when we lose the turnover battle, we are 0-4, when we tie the turnover battle we are 1-1, when we win the turnover battle we are 1-0.... and in the last 2 games, our turnovers have led to us being in a deficit and playing from behind early... it's not all on McCown but a fair amount of it is.

1. No, it's considered small sample size fluctuation, just like his 2 TO in 3 games were not representative. McCown has enough of a track record to go off of. He had 81 turnovers in 1813 PA, that's a TO every 22,82 attempts. Medicore at best, but considering Manziel's rate, it's still a significant enough gap between the two. And btw, I don't care who starts at QB at this point. The QB discussion just deviates from the bigger issues with this team.

2. Browns lost the field position game all game long and both team's running game is the reason for that, so even if Gurley didn't directly contribute to points, he was a big factor the entire game and our RBs weren't. That and he essentially sealed the game when everybody in the stadium knew he'd get the ball. You think any of the Browns RB could do that?

The Rams have two of the top ten defensive players in the league. They have also invested heavily in other areas of their defense over the course of several years.

Yet still managed to put up 3 times as many points our offense did.

The Texans were in garbage time for the entire second half with the Dolphins resting their starters.

There are other bad teams and teams in disarray just like us. The only thing is we seem to be one of those teams every year.

While the Browns spared no expense to invest their elite top NFL highest paid defense, promised the moon, but delivered that stinky cheese again.

We hit on Joe Haden, but he is nowhere near the quality of player as Donald or Quinn. When you whiff on first round picks continuously (Richardson, Mingo, Gilbert, Taylor, etc.), your team will eventually feel the effects of it.

Players like Robertson, Kirksey, Hughes, Meder, and K. Williams are nice players, but they are not difference makers. Because we whiffed on so many picks we had to sign older guys who are not elite, but band aids. Those guys are beginning to show their age.

So you cite small sample size fluctuation and then use it as justification why we should compare it to a guy with 3 starts ever?


I'm not comparing our running game to theirs, I'm comparing the impact their running game had on their victory.

It did help them with field position... sorry, once a game I expect our offense to execute a 70-80 yard TD drive. The touchdown that gave them a 17-6 lead started on their 12... The most noticable time for FB was in the second quarter when we started on our 4 and went 7 yards.. then started on our 9 and went 12 yards.. then started on our 16 and finally went 41 yards just to get out of the shadow of our own endzone... their offense did little to keep us backed up, our offense did nothing to get us out of it.

1. Yes, because that's all we have to date to evaluate Manziel's ball security. His ration has gotten worse from last seaon to this season, small sample, sure, but that's his career so far. Anyone who think his ration will be anywhere close to 23PA is being delusional at this point. But, as I said, don't care who plays QB at this point. Get Johnny in so that we can get rid of this rash and get it over with.

2. That's the point, our running game did nothing to get us into better field position or set up easy throws for McCown. And McCown did have a clutch drive going down 4p, when he hit Barnidge on 2&20, remember his circus catch? He then connected to him again to offset a holding penalty and get into 3&9. On 3rd down he hit Benji for 36yds to the STL 21, just to get it called back on another holding penalty. He was pretty good on that drive without any help of his RBs, but others simply ruined it. If Manziel would have played, your narrative would come from this side, pretty sure about that. QB was not the problem...

My point was that Gurley racked up a bunch of yards but had minimal impact on us losing... how is your mentioning OUR running game or OUR QBs effectiveness even remotely related to the point?

Not sure why you keep wanting to blend Gurley's impact with our own running game or McCown's effectiveness... Gurley doesn't play defense.

Gurley had a handful of nice runs, he helped swap field position a couple times, especially in the second half... His 16 yard TD run was basically a dagger.. but for the course of 60 minutes, he wasn't the reason we lost... and he certainly wasn't the reason we only scored 6 points.


Great, he had one nice drive going (first play was a 10 yard run by the way, called back for a very weak holding call on Barnidge)... like I said, I never said McCown was horrible, he's very capable of some nice plays per game. His team did little to help him. I'm not focusing on McCown, you did that based on one of my comments that I didn't think he played all that well (and has been turning the ball over more frequently) even though his stats look decent. If you took that to mean I was blaming him, or that Manziel would have done better, or that we didn't do anything else wrong, then either I did a poor job of initially expressing my opinions, or you misunderstood.

the drive you were talking about, I think we had 35 yards in penalties on that drive (and that doesn't even count the loss of the yards we gained), not McCowns fault and unrealistic to expect him to overcome that. The fumbles by the WRs, while nice defensive plays on both, those are on the WRs... McCowns two fumbles are on him.

If you want me to expound on a couple other things, I don't like our RB rotation AT ALL. I know we don't have a RB of Gurley's caliber but I love the way they use him... He's in for almost every play, when he gets winded they give him a break and run Cunningham a couple times then go right back to Gurley. None of our RBs have a chance to develop any kind of a rhythm.. when you get a couple carries, then go sit for 2 or 3 series, it's hard to get into the flow of the game. I think we need to pick a RB to be the workhorse, pick a RB to be the guy who gives him a break or comes in for special situations... and be done with it. When you finish the game and your 3 RBs have 8, 5, and 6 attempts, how is anybody getting into the flow of the game? Credit to Duke who did have a nice day receiving..

There is much to be upset about McCown is a part of it. I do not agree with those who say he isn't the reason we lost... when your team scores 6 points, the QB is part of the reason you lost. Was he dragged down by a bunch of other crappy calls and crappy plays? Absolutely...


I dare say that if everything played out exactly the same with Manziel, I could flip this around because NO WAY would you be defending him...

Because it's football? A game of field position, where being closer to the GL is better? And one phase of the game hinges on the other? You can't act and look at players in a vacuum. It's common sense



I agree, and apologize if I lumped you into the McCown/Manziel agenda BS, but I read too many dumb posts pinning it mostly on him.



And you're right again, because I do not consider neither future franchise QBs and that performance, no matter who would have delivered it, while not being horrible is not enough to give hope for the future. The reason why I would probably rip Manziel more is simply projection/reality and personal opinion. Everybody knew who McCown is more or less, so it's hard to get too upset or happy with his games, so it's understandable that no one comes out defending him as a future savior, we all know he isn't, but there would still be Manzielians believing in his ceiling after such a performance and that would be a delusion that could cost another year. Make no mistake about it, it's just opinion and predicting future outcome.

Unable to see the game yesterday. After watching a few clips during Pettine's presser, HOLY COW!!!!! I'm surprised McCown is upright and functioning today. That game was brutal.

Johnny should be shaking in his cleats bout now. Pet wouldn't comment on McCown's status.

And I think I've tried to explain the interconnection of how penalties and turnovers etc all contributed... Obviously starting closer to the goal line is better... but is it unreasonable to expect your offense to go 70 or 80 yards to score a touchdown? Once? Just once in a game, is that too much to ask? We got inside their red zone exactly one time, inside their 35 one other time... Our 2 FGs. I don't care if you start every drive on your own 5 yard line, that's unacceptable..

At the end of the day, our defense gave up 14 points, our offense gave up 10... our offense scored 6, our defense scored 0... So take the whole crapfest, put it in a bucket and throw it into the air in the lockerroom so it can land on everybody... but more of it needs to land on the offense.

After Camp Cupcake and the resulting pampering, most of the Browns D have checked out. Also when having chances, the vets are not being put into positions to play to their strengths cause of the stubborn, unchanging, defensive scheme put in place by the coach's little helper turned malcontent D-Coordinator.

McCown had 11 drives:

2 scoring drives
4 ended with a turnover
5 ended with a punt, one of them was the one I mentioned, the Offense gained 67yds but got 30yds of penalty against them, resulting in a punt

3rd down and distance on the 5 punt drives: 3&5, 3&16, 3&18, 3&8, 3&19

Yes, the lack of a run game did play a major role in this loss, I'd argue that it started the trickle down crapfest

Possibly, but I'd lean toward penalties as being a bigger problem.
Three of those 5 third downs have a down & distance that you simply cannot have without at least a 10-yard penalty - 16, 18, 19. It really doesn't matter how well you're running it, it isn't going to make up for that.

11 penalties all day for 98 yards.
4 fumbles, 4 lost

It's like the JETS game all over again. We just shoot ourselves in the foot constantly.

did we even have an offensive drive that DIDN'T result in some penalty against us?

the line was getting manhandled yesterday. that one false start bitonio had, you could tell dude just couldn't handle that pass rush.

Anyone see Fisher's comments? One of Gurley's touchdowns, the Browns only had 10 men on the field. Possibly same play the play clock was at zero and he was trying to call a timeout.

Calamity of errors.

We love finding ways to lose...

Best game review online:

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2015/10/28/...-6-loss-to-rams

Someone kept mentioning that our receivers were not open. After reading this review one would find that is not true. Benjamin was open many times.



This is a third and five. Benjamin is open.



Benjamin wide open deep for a TD.

that bottom pic looks remarkably similar to another time Benji was open running across the field deep and our QB had rolled out to the left... but I'm pretty sure that QB made the throw for a TD.

So then you are finally agreeing with me that our lack of a run game had more to do with us losing that Gurley's yards? Good, glad we can put that behind us now.

My point the whole season has been the gap of success between our and opposing teams' running game. It has been the biggest constant in all losses. Put the rush yds from our RBs next to the opponents RBs in every game. It's real ugly. That's where we lose games. Foles was every bit as bad as McCown, if not worse, but the Rams didn't need to rely on him.

Wow, looking at the bottom pic you have to wonder what McCown is looking at. That's money in the bank right there.

Ever played qb?

Stuff happens fast. Real fast.

Nope, never made $4 million a year either... Not saying I should be able to do it, saying he should be able to do it.

Looking at a still screen shot, you would think so. Doing it in live, real time......hey, even Brady and Rogers miss some guys.

Nobody is perfect, the better you are, the less mistakes you make and the better you are at making up for those mistakes.

We operate on a very narrow margin of error. We can't afford to miss opportunities when they are there.

For real too... he's right there Josh, hit him!

I'd be interested to see what the pocket looks like at that exact moment...is this image cropped or is there not a full field look?

Which image are you referring to?

Wow. That bottom picture is frustrating to see.