DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Playing Johnny its a start (Terry Pluto)

I was wondering the same thing. Johnny was the best player on the field tonight and all I hear are crickets.

OK, obviously I have no tape to use yet but I can at least put in my 2 cents. Keep in mind I am going off of what I am remembering in the game. My numbers might be a bit off here.

First baiting other posters kinda makes it look like you have an agenda Verse.

First I will say that this was by far Johnny's best game. He looked not horrible enough to get everybody to get out their "play Johnny!" signs for the Baltimore game. He deserves a lot of credit for having much better pocket presence.

Those that are complimenting footwork or throwing motion or read progression though are just pretending to see what they want to see.

First, the game was about 90% quick first read short passes. Other than that long one to Benjamin, I don't think there was another pass over 20 yards. Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact I give Flip a lot of credit for planning it that way, because Johnny wouldn't even make those reads last week. It definitely helped Johnny's confidence and certainly helped his completion percentage.

Second, Johnny probably threw out of the shotgun 90% of the time as well. This is probably by design as well to mask his footwork. He still threw flat footed way to much for my taste when in the pocket, and rarely stopped and set his feet when he rolled out. Johnny threw the ball like he was throwing a boomerang and did some kind of scissor kick with both feet off the ground when his ball got intercepted. I am not sure where he was aiming, but it wasn't anywhere close to where the ball went.

Third his throwing motion had flashes of decent several times, but still is pretty horrible. His fumble on the first play was because of his throwing motion. He got his elbow behind his body and tried to throw with only his hips in a sideways motion rather than step in to an easy throw.

His yardage came mostly against a 4 man rush in garbage time in the second half. Most times he had all day in the pocket against some pretty poor CB's in Pittsburgh. I can't fault him at all for being slow in his read progression. That is normal for a rookie and will get better.

Hey, he threw a TD this week! It took our defense handing him the ball in Pittsburgh's red zone to do it, but that fade pass to Barnidge was perfect. That is a hard pass for a rookie.

All in all he looked much better than I was expecting, but I wasn't expecting much. This Defensive backfield was about the easiest he was going to see other than maybe San Francisco and they really didn't put any pressure on him. They didn't need to in this game.

That's all I have now, but I'll post more when I see some tape for him out there.

Eh, whatever.. you knew which play I was talking about.
It was bad when it looked batted at first, it was just plain comical when they showed the slo-mo replay and you could see that the ball just came out of his hand. In hindsight, it was the 100% perfect way to start that game - nothing else would have been quite as appropos.

The hypocrisy of this comment is amazing!

_____________

Anyways......

I thought Manziel continued to elevate his game but think the stats are still misleading. The most important thing I noticed is that he was deliberately trying to make throws in the pocket. And he did.

Also, not as many dink-n-dunk passes and several nice down the field passes. Hope that continues as well.

You didn't watch the game, right? I can tell.

he didn't watch the blown call that should've been a manziel rushing TD.

or a dropped pass by benji in the endzone.

or a hawkins fumble.

Not sure which part of my numerous posts about "it doesn't matter who the QB is, the problem is roster talent" you missed, but please keep me off your agenda BS. It's actually hilarious how you're playing "agenda" hedge betting lately. When Manziel plays like crap, you're all "I wanted Bridgewater, Farmer sucks". When he delivers a decent game, you act as if you've been his biggest pimp. That's the definition of a hypocrite. At least Mourg and Rish went to bat for him

As for his game. He started off like hot crap. Turnover on his first attempt, and should be INT on his very next. At one pont he was 8/11 and 5 of his completions were inaccurate screens that went nowhere because of it. Even the big play to Benji was a moronic cross arm throw that will be an INT 50% of the time. His best play was the 3rd&long conversion to Hartline from the pocket. That was good. That was most of the first half. We scored 3 points, just in case you forgot.

Second half he collected 200+yds against a vanilla scheme, down 3 scores. If you deem that relevant, it's more a testament of how low the bar has been reset lately. Probably the same people who thought Colt McCoy was an option now think Manziel was good yesterday.

He got better during the game and didn't falter like the rest, I'll give him that. He was NOT the reason we lost. Been saying this all along for weeks in this stupid McCown vs Manziel battle. But whoever wants to tell me that he was better than McCown won't convince me, because he wasn't, far from it actually. McCown is much better in the RZ and on 3rd downs. 2 starts, 2 full games, 19 points. That's reality.

You make crap up. I still think that we should have taken Teddy. No doubt in my mind. Heck, I think we should have taken Carr ahead of Johnny, and no, I did not want Carr over JM in the draft. I admitted I was wrong. That's something you are unable to do.

I made that post because there are several of you on here who are completely unfair in your analysis of JM.

Then tell me what's "unfair" about my analysis if you can. Talk football, remember?

I told you what I saw. Manziel was ok, but not good. I still don't think he's a franchise QB, because he did next to nothing when the game was on the line. Just because 90% of the team was worse that doesn't make his game better.

Look, the Browns are devoid of talent from top to bottom. Owner, GM, coaching, roster. It's a mess of epic proportions, so please pick somebody else to play your useless agenda games.

You are the very last guy to judge a post on what's fair and what's not fair. Every single post is a personal war with you.

You are a coach are you not? I would think that your arguments would be more football related and less judgmental on the posts of others.

What position do you actually coach btw? It is pretty obvious that it isn't the QB position.

jc

just to reinforce my argument:

Manziel's season stats in opposing territory:

26/57, 45.6%, 244yds, 4.36ypa

When the threat of him running around is taken, and throwing windows get tighter, he's toast. More evidence for that are his ypa by range: opp 20-49 = 6.85, 19-GL = 2.6 and 10-GL he's 1/10

Manziel has 696yds throwing from his own half.

That's the QB I'm seeing and these stats support it

But Dj, is that not true for every QB? I'm not talking absolute numbers here, but rather the concept that the deeper you get into your opponent's territory, the more difficult it becomes (for reasons you stated and implied). Your stats generally drop off with increasing resistance from the defence...

Some use Bridgewater as the standard for young QB, yet do you know what his stats in that same category are?

Bridgewater has gone: 59-112, 52.7%, 559 yards, 4.99 yards/throw.

Bridgewater has 1251 of his yards on his own side of the field. Oh, and he has a run game.

So, what do you see what you look at Bridgewater, compared to Manziel?

I haven't seen a single Bridgewater game yet, so I can't comment on him. Those stats aren't good either, but they're still better. Bridgewater is the Vikings problem.

I've seen and commented on Manziel. When over 70% of your yds come from your own half and your production gets worse the closer you get to the GL, that's a bad trend for your prospects of becoming a fracnhise QB. I still don't see one and those splits reinforce what I saw from him.

Other young QBs stats in opposing territory:

D.Carr: 84/139, 60.4%, 932yds, 6.71ypa, 1.496yds from own half (62%)

Mariota: 75/109, 68.8%, 666yds, 6.11ypa, 1.175yds from own half (65.5%)

The kid has improved in each of his starts. I dont need stats to see that. Its what you want from a young QB.

Good for you. Improvement from what, is the important question.

He didn't even look like a 3rd tring QB in his rookie season. More like some former HS QB pulled off the stands and thrown into the field. Did he improve from that? Yes, he did, significantly.

My point is: you can go from 0 to 30, improve significantly and still be well below AVG on a 0-100 scale.

Where we simply disagree is his ceiling. Obviously you think that he can keep improving, while the splits I've provided explain why he produced 10p in both starts. Flip called a lot of rollouts yesterday. Those plays are his strength and play well between the 20s, but when you are in the RZ, there's no room for running around and you have to PLAY QB and that's where Manziel is simply not good at. That's why I believe he just doesn't have the upside that you and others still believe in. We will find out.

With the sorry state of this roster, you can give Manziel the rest of this season, although I still believe McCown is the better QB, but what's the point now, right?. I would NOT draft a QB high next draft and go into next season with those two and ask Manziel to EARN the starting job in TC with a new HC looking at both. If he does, give him the entire season. It will be a lost one anyway.

Part of the red zone issues may lie with the QB but I think a large part is that we have no mismatches when we get down there besides Barnidge. We need some WRs with size badly.

or Goal to go from the 30 when it was 1st and goal from the 1/2 yard line from said blown call.

Manziel had a decent game and was not the major issue of the game in its entirety

Blown call or not, there is no excuse for going from the half yard line to almost out of field goal range. Of course, the pick took away the FG attempt.

.

Just clicking

I don't have any issue with starting Manziel the rest of the year. He showed me he's a tough kid, worked hard yesterday. Wasn't successful but not for the lack of effort.

I mean anytime he puts the ball in a receivers hands and the either drop it or catch it then fumble, I don't/can't hold that against him.

He's exciting to watch and a nightmare to defend.. They gotta let Johnny be Johnny.

What the hell does it matter at this point. We're 2-8. We aren't going to end 8-8.

IIRC, the pick was a 4th down play.

the INT was on 4th and goal from the 7...

Thanks, DC (and lamp). I mis-remembered. Or repressed, or something.

How can you forget going from 1st and goal on the 1 to 1st and goal on the 16 to 2nd and goal on the 25 to 3rd and goal on the 19 to 4th and goal on the 7?

On second thought, I can see why you would want to forget that.

I'm here, just didn't get to see the game live yesterday.

I know you're waiting with baited breath for my take on Manziel and here it is...he did not lose us the game. McCown of 2015 has us in a much better position to win that game. I knew there was going to be a ton of crowing from you folks that think the fact that Manziel didn't poop the bed is proof that he's the next Fran Tarkenton but the fact is that he's still not accurate, he's still not playing within the confines of the offensse and he simply doesn't have the physical tools to be more than a backup quarterback in this league.

All I could do was sit there an watch in awe what a competent quarterback looks like and compare it to the guy we were running out there on the field and I was very depressed. A strong arm is not the end all, be all of a quarterback, but Manziel has terrible throwing mechanics and if he wants to put zip on the ball he has to put his whole body into it. Which is baffling because he also doesn't seem to have any touch.

I know, I know he put up big numbers but most of those were with the Steelers protecting a lead and where it really mattered, he was still almost two touchdowns less productive than McCown has been this year.

you realize that was from 2 holding calls on the OL, right?

1 holding, 1 illegal formation, 1 sack... but who wants to split hairs on ineptitude.

I would love to see what Manziel could do with those WRs against our secondary and non-existent pass rush... he wouldn't be Big Ben, but he wouldn't be the Manziel we've seen either. hell i could have thrown many of those passes.

While true, I don't see franchise QB there.

If it happens we end up #1 overall, Lynch or Goff should be our future.

Not sure who they will target next, but yes, I also see not franchise QB in Manziel. But this explains why I wholeheartedly want him to start the rest of the season. I want everyone else to see it.

I don't think you give Roethlesberger enough credit. When he's hurt, they're nowhere near as good an offense, not even in the same league.

Mike Pettine sounds ready to start Johnny Manziel: 'You're proud of the kid and happy for him'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com on November 16, 2015 at 6:14 PM, updated November 17, 2015 at 7:32 AM

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns coach Mike Pettine isn't ready to declare Johnny Manziel his starter yet, but he sounded like a man leaning heavily that way.

"I'm not prepared to say that, but that's a conversation that certainly will be had,'' Pettine said of huddling up with his staff over the bye week. "We'll talk about all of it.''

But a day after Manziel's 372-yard effort in Sunday's 30-9 loss to the Steelers, Pettine was effusive in his praise of last year's first-round pick. The Browns' next game is the ESPN Monday Nighter Nov. 30thst at home against the Ravens.

"To go back to yesterday and echo -- the film showed it even more,'' said Pettine. "He showed significant progress. That was one of the better quarterback performances. You take the first play out – which you can't forget about. The ball skipped out of his hands – the fact he rallied from that, on the road in that environment – I've seen where things have gone bad early and guys go in the tank and they get that glazed look in their eye.

"He was the exact opposite. He was loose. He was into it.''

Manziel completed 73% of his passes -- 33-of-45 -- for 372 yards with one touchdown and one interception for a 95.8 rating. He was sacked six times, lost one fumble and almost scored on an 11-yard scramble up the middle after escaping a would-be sack. He also had one TD pass dropped in the end zone by Travis Benjamin and one TD run by Isaiah Crowell wiped out by a holding call against rookie Cam Erving.

"He did an outstanding job in between series, getting input from the quarterbacks and (offensive coordinator John DeFilippo) and on the headset with (quarterbacks coach) Kevin (O'Connell),'' said Pettine. "I just thought the improvement he made from the Cincinnati game to this one was a leap.

"Kind of given what he's gone through, you're just proud of the kid and happy for him. I just wish we had a better result from a team standpoint because he played his ass off."

As for whether or not Pettine will still go with the quarterback who gives him the best chance to win, he said, "we haven't discussed it yet.''

He acknowledged that he'll talk to Browns owner Jimmy Haslam about the quarterback situation during the bye week, but that the decision will still be up to the coaches.

"We'll talk at some point during this time off and we'll hit a lot of points,'' Pettine said. "We'll cover a lot of ground, and I'm sure the quarterback situation will be one."

While Pettine's mulling whether or not to turn the reins over to Manziel, the quarterback's possible discipline under the NFL's personal conduct policy on Oct. 12th is hanging over his heard.

Asked why it's taking so long, Pettine said, "I'm not part of that, so all I know is I haven't heard anything.

An NFL spokesman said, "We're doing our due diligence to ensure the review is thorough.''

Judging from the way Pettine sounded, a suspension during these final six games would put a serious crimp in their plans for Manziel. Critical of his signal-caller during halftime of the 31-10 loss to the Bengals on NFL Network, Pettine praised him for an all-around encouraging effort, especially on throws from the pocket.

"Playing quarterback in the NFL is, as simple as it sounds, take what's there,'' said Pettine. "Where does this ball need to go? By the time he hits his plant step he knows what coverage they're in. He knows where to go with the ball. If he can deliver it on time with an accurate throw then we're on to the next play. That's what good quarterback play is all about.''

He acknowledged that's where Manziel took the biggest jump from the Cincinnati game.

"He did a much better job of that in this game,'' said Pettine. "But the unique thing about Johnny is, as we all know, when it's not there and he has to go to his second read and it's not there and maybe the pocket starts to break down and he had to move and get out and make a play that he as a unique ability to do that. We're looking for the best of both worlds. Take the plays that are there, but when it does get expended, go ahead and do your thing."

Josh McCown, who sat out the game with his sore ribs but acknowledged he was close to playing, was equally impressed with Manziel's pocket presence.

"He stayed in the pocket and did the things he needs to do to continue to grow and play the position,'' he said. "The first third down was nice – the one he moved to get to Trav for the long gain (61 yards), but my favorite was the one he hung in there and ripped that ball into (Brian) Hartline on a big third-and-long. For me, that's what you look for in an NFL quarterback – a guy who'll stand in there on third-and-long and make those throws.

"All the other stuff, obviously it came out through the course of the game. He makes a play where he almost scores. That's stuff you can't coach. That's going to bode well for him throughout his career if he can allow it to happen like that.

"But for him to be effective from the pocket first – look at our league and look at the guys that are successful. They're successful from the pocket. I was proud of him because he was so effective from the pocket. Then when all the other stuff happens it's icing on the cake. Yesterday I thought he captured that and had great balance of those things. That's why he was so effective."

Pettine acknowledged that McCown, who's prepared to transition from starter to mentor, has been a big part of Manziel's development.

"It's a combination of a lot of things,'' said Pettine. "It's Johnny's want-to, along with what we're doing schematically for him, what Kevin O'Connell's been able to bring to that room, as far as accountability. But Josh has been a big part of it. To have that guy in the room that has his personality and sets the example that he can set, yeah, he has been a mentor for him, especially the weeks that he's been down.''

From the way Pettine sounded, there will be plenty more opportunities for that.