DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum It's Time to Fire Pettine and Farmer.

Let's not forget in the last coaching search, nobody wanted the job. Pettine was a consolation hire. The reason we keep him is not for continuity, but rather lack of another coach's willingness to work for baffoons who have no idea what it takes to build a respectable organization.

Kind of hard to be a liar then go cry to the media or anyone who will listen and say..I made a promise to my teammates..owner...coach and general manager and made them look bad...

Will you please listen to my side of the story and support me:/ ugh what a mess..

Vers recently started, and for the most part moderated, an excellent discussion about 'Continuity for the sake of Continuity.' It got me to think about my position which has been "let's give them at least 5 years."

Farmer has been hit or miss, but most GM both hit and miss. Farmer's problem has been his misses have been more visible than his hits. Pettine seemed impressive in his first season, leading the team to a much better record than anticipated. There were obvious flaws, most notably that he can't seem to manage the clock. This year has been much worse. He still can't manage the clock, he is consistently not made good 1/2 time adjustments, his team has way too many unforced penalties, and his defense can't stop the run.

If we are going to blow it all up again, we should be smart about how we do it. Find a GM now, let him settle in, hire his scouts and prepare for the off-season. Then, after the season is over, let him hire his HC.

The HC has created a mess and he needs to be held accountable. The HC is acting like the goody goody nerd who was embarrassed by the popular kid in class. He took away his hall pass and still found the popular kid in the hall. So now he wants the entire student body to chastise the popular kid and validate his hurt feelings. Pettine won 7 games last season on the skill of Brian Hoyer and the defensive play last season. Hoyer has a similar talented team as the Browns in Houston and is currently in the playoff hunt again. Pettine's defense has regressed so much this season that it may not even be the twinkle in the Defensive Coordinator's eye. I think O'Neill and the defense are breaking up like teenage sweethearts from last year. Firing Pettine is now past due. It has started to curdle like bad milk in the fridge. IMHO, the real hire is a veteran coach who can handle himself in the locker room without getting his feelings hurt. We are in week 12 and Pettine has not gotten control of the locker room? Pettine was lied to by a 22 year old QB who HE said was NOT ready for the reins all year long. Pettine is hurt by Manziel's actions? Pettine is a poor HC and has to be fired. I am still hopeful of Farmer. However, I would not cry if he was replaced as well.

Voleur

Mac, I agree with many of your comments. I do find it hard to have someone hired while Pet is still here. I don't think many people would even interview for a position while the guy they might replace is still on board. Seems a bit unethical to me.

I say dump Farmer, then let the new GM make the call on the coach. Haslam only needs to terminate one of them. He doesn't have to terminate both.

Well, if Haslam told the truth as to the setup of the Browns when he fired Banner and Lombardi, then GM and Head Coach are parallel positions, and the head coach is not subordinate to the GM. They work together, not under/over one another.

So, if Haslam hired a new GM, it should, in theory, have no direct impact upon the head coach.

j/c:



https://twitter.com/RuiterWrongFAN

Agree??

Farmer is worse than Lombardi/Banner.

Farmer has blown high picks like its going out of style. We have two first rounders that can't even get on the field, a backup offensive linemen, and a tackle who can only play two downs with Farmer's four first round picks. He also has the horrible Dwayne Bowe contract on his ledger.

Banner/Lombardi at least traded Richardson for a first round pick and signed useful free agents (Kruger, Bryant).

Heckert is the man who traded away the drafting of Julio Jones for Phil Taylor, Weeden and Greg Little.

And that's our best one, huh?

Sad. Utterly sad.

I feel like this could be it's own thread that would be on "Continued x 57" by the time the draft begins.



I disagree about Farmer vs Lombanner. But either way, Farmer is down towards the bottom of the list.

The worst part is that there is no one who was actually good. Some could probably even argue that Savage was the worst.

Bottomline, they were all bad.

Every...SINGE... ONE. It's pathetic.

Everybody laughs at that long list of QBs we've had. To me, that's not nearly as pathetic as the list of those who have been evaluating and adding "talent" to this franchise since 99. It's downright sickening...

I beg of you guys to stop wasting time debating who was the best or worst of these losers. It's like deciding which pile of crap smells the best.

not even close. Clark, Garcia/Davis, Farmer, Heckert, Kokinis, Lombardi, Savage.

the reason i put Kokinis, Lombardi, ahead of heckert is they only had 1 draft and heckert had 3 drafts to set us back on.

How frickin' pathetic is that?

Garcia/Davis got us into the Playoff's and one dropped pass away from a 2nd playoff game. I'm not sure how they don't rate higher.

I hope the Eagles fire Chip Kelly. Our offensive line is perfect, our QB would fit the system, I think one down year after two 10-6 seasons would be a godsend here and gets you fired there.

It's not that he's had a down year, or I should say not JUST because he's had a down year that makes me leery about Kelly.

He had this bad year pretty much after outsmarting himself by getting rid of players that were part of the reason for the good years.

I admit, the guys he got rid of were probably not "HIS" kinda players, but he didn't replace them with anyone better. That's what I mean by outsmarting himself.

Bold moves for sure, they just didn't work out.

I wished half way decent coaches would want to come here, but they had to dig pretty far down just to get Pettine.

Until this team has a young talented roster and shows skills on game days no coach will want to bury his career here.

I agree but when you think about it, it's his first time in the NFL.I am by no means comparing the two, but look at Bill Beli in his first couple years here, he gutted the roster of a contender doing it "his way". Sometimes it takes a couple seasons to turn it over.

He took Nick Foles and had him operating at a pro bowl level. Look at Foles in St. Louis it's embarrassing how bad he is. A bunch of games this season were decided late in the game for the Eagles. They won 10 games in the past two seasons with Sanchez and Foles and if the reports are correct a bunch of malcontents on his roster.

Maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't but casting a guy aside after two 10 win seasons would cause rioting in the streets in CLE. I would take Chip over Pettine and Farmer, right now and I am fairly confident Haslam would have said the same in 2013.

Keep Pett but make it clear what has to improve. Hate this defense as called and\or schemed. IF that is the best Pett can put out there, scrap it. Need one side of the ball to build on minimum. Putrid offense, worse defense, it is not all players. But change to something hungry and ambitious. Attacking. Miserable mistakes carried forward week after week.

Stay hungry. Be wrong overcommitting. Find a way to better yourselves by being committed to breaking your opponent. Timid hasn't gotten it done. At least be wrong in a new way. Both sides of the ball need to crush the envelope, not nudge it.

j/c:

Disastrous Cleveland Browns Season Was Set Up to Fail From the Start

One year ago, Mike Pettine puffed a fat cigar outside the tunnel of the Georgia Dome dressed in a sharp suit and an orange tie.

Red-faced with elation following the last-second win, team owner Jimmy Haslam greeted his first-year head coach with a warm embrace and his booming southern accent. Offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan and starting quarterback Brian Hoyer soon followed, both worker-bees with team-issued tablets in their hands. Pettine smiled.

The Browns had just beaten the Atlanta Falcons 26-24 to improve to 7-4 and the mood on the team plane ride back was giddy. Whispers of the playoffs were traveling up and down the aisles.

One year later, the walls are crumbling inside the team facility for the 2-8 Browns as an exhausted head coach and an unfit general manager stumble their way through the wreckage. The increasingly likely trip to the guillotine for the duo can be traced in part to the roles played by two ticking time bombs that have sabotaged the season and created a domino effect for the dying regime in Cleveland. And there’s a strong chance that the two players in question — both of the Cleveland Browns’ first round draft picks from 2014 — will not be with the team come 2016 either, no matter who is in charge of personnel decisions.

Demoted to third-string quarterback last week, Johnny Manziel repeatedly shamed the organization with his apparent uncontrollable urge to party in the public eye, so, in a final straw situation, the team shamed him back. Pettine had endured enough questioning about his problem child quarterback. “You lose trust in buckets and regain it in drops,” the coach told the media following the decision, intimating that there was hope for Manziel to rebound in the future. But it’s easy enough to read between the lines and know that the trust will never be completely earned back.

So the floundering Browns will start 36-year-old Josh McCown on Monday Night Football against the Baltimore Ravens, publicly signaling they’ve reached the conclusion that Manziel’s mental makeup is not that of an NFL quarterback. After months and hours of boardroom deliberations upstairs on the plush second floor of the Berea facility, Browns decision makers are finally on the same page, slowly scratching their heads, realizing they’ve been conned by Manziel all along.

It was known that Pettine and Shanahan didn’t see as much in Manziel as some of the others in the organization. After watching a young Mark Sanchez repeatedly shoot the Jets in the foot during New York’s glory run in 2009 and 2010, Pettine wouldn’t allow himself to make the same mistake twice with another hotshot college quarterback. The pair of clever coaches liked controlling their quarterbacks on the field with a systematic offense. Playing off the cuff was despised. Manziel was to be shelved for as long as possible and his shenanigans off the field proved to be a sticking point in internal debate. Meanwhile, phones rang off the hook on the sales side of the building.

While Manziel's fall from grace is grabbing the headlines, he's been a veritable angel inside the facility compared to his first-round counterpart and teammate, Justin Gilbert, who should be the bigger story.

The Browns barely knew who Gilbert was before they selected the cornerback with the eighth overall pick in the 2014 draft and their missteps in the jumbled mess of a process has resulted in quite possibly one of the biggest NFL draft busts of the decade.

Sources say key members of the organization — people who might’ve been able to red flag him — did not physically meet Gilbert until after he was drafted. And those that did file scouting reports on Gilbert’s work ethic extolling his passion for football were completely wrong on their detailed research. If you remember correctly, this was also during the offseason when Farmer mocked the pro day process by skipping nearly all of them. Some of his other methodologies were equally as unorthodox and led to the team hiring Farmer’s mentor, veteran NFL executive Bill Kuharich, 12 days after the 2014 draft.

The Browns being coy about their draft intentions is nothing new in the NFL. But what’s troubling about the matter is that Gilbert’s personality problems are apparent to anyone who's been around him for longer than a day. He's withdrawn and carries a distinct false sense of entitlement that shows itself when he acts downright aloof to how his negative behavior rubs people the wrong way.

Browns community and marketing staffers rarely bother asking him to participate in activities with fans — usually a must for recent draft picks.

Two prominent Browns defensive players recently read a transcript of Gilbert's graceless and unprofessional interview with reporters this fall about his promotion to kick returner and complained directly to me.

“He just doesn’t get what the NFL is about. At all,” said one veteran. “How could they miss this badly?” said another about the front office.

All NFL teams miss on draft picks, even the Patriots. The problem for the Browns? The first trait Pettine and Farmer look for in upcoming draft picks is whether or not they love football.

“Does this guy love what football does for him or does he truly love the game and is passionate about it?” Pettine told the team’s website at the NFL’s scouting combine in February. "That's something that you can really find out. You'd be surprised how much you can find out in a short period of time. That's the biggest reason why we're here.”

There might not be anybody in the NFL who cares less about football than Gilbert.

Gilbert’s healthy scratch against the Steelers on Nov. 15 was a result of a string of “piss poor” practices and inconsistent habits in the meeting room, where he clearly hasn’t been memorizing tweaks to the defensive playbook. Remember, this comes days after playing 23 relatively positive snaps against the Bengals on Thursday Night Football, where he could’ve finally escaped the bench.

Unlike Manziel, who loves football and abused the stardom that comes with it, Gilbert seems like he wants nothing to do with the sport. And while Manziel’s path of destruction has been aired out in public eye, Gilbert’s has played out behind the scenes. The clues were there from the beginning though.

He was a high school track star in Texas and loved playing wide receiver where he could score touchdowns. He also excelled as a kick returner at Oklahoma State, setting the Big 12 record for return touchdowns. Gilbert used his speed and little else to be an effective cornerback in college. The Browns became infatuated with his length and physical abilities, and not about who he was as a person. Gilbert even had a wildly inconsistent junior season in college that the Browns seemingly ignored. Cleveland thought that with the right coaching they could turn him into an Antonio Cromartie type who could play on an island.

At a celebratory dinner in downtown Cleveland shortly after the 2014 draft, a source said Farmer and Pettine were openly glowing about how Gilbert would quickly blossom into one of the elite cornerbacks in the NFL. The Browns thought they might have nabbed the steal of the draft.

In Pettine’s mentally taxing defensive scheme and in the macho world of the NFL, however, Gilbert’s speed and athleticism meant nothing. Soon, it became clear that Cleveland put a premium on drafting a position on the field instead of a football player. Players lacking physical attributes like Jim Leonhard thrived in Pettine’s scheme because they were cerebral. Gilbert just doesn’t get joy out of breaking down the Xs and Os. Flashy plays get him going, not the nitty-gritty details that define professional football.

To give the embattled defensive coaching staff credit, they haven’t complained about Gilbert nearly as much as they should have. They took him on as a project and had genuine hopes they could turn him around like the Texans did with Kareem Jackson, like the Ravens did with Jimmy Smith. And though Johnson Bademosi has struggled, the coaches aren't going to throw Gilbert out there instead simply because he makes more money. They've stayed true to their philosophy of competition and rewarding veterans who do the right things.

Gilbert is on an island in a way, just not the way the organization wanted. While other Browns players generally make an effort to get to know each other in the locker room and cafeteria, Gilbert is usually by himself, sometimes even leaving the facility during the free hour period before practice. Team good guy Joe Haden attempted to mentor Gilbert this offseason by working out with him in Miami, but Gilbert continued to push away veterans looking to help guide him in Cleveland. He’s isolated himself from the team.

Healthy scratches are the norm for Gilbert. The team realized they had reached the point of no return during a game in the middle of last season. The cornerback missed the mandatory team bus at 10:30 a.m. and had to be frantically located by the Browns security team. Gilbert showed up shortly after noon. One teammate nearly had to be restrained, his anger bubbling as Gilbert stood there smiling, eating candy.

Nine months later, in joint training camp practices against the Bills that featured 180 total players, nobody was worse than Justin Gilbert. When he aggravated a hip flexor, teammates privately told me they were thankful — his play was embarrassing all of them. In two short afternoons he was exposed for what he is: an athletic specimen, not an NFL cornerback.

Why bemoan just two players? Because the lack of impact from early draft choices has directly tied into the team’s 2-13 record over their last 15 games. Fringe veterans are playing out of necessity. And while Pettine is mightily respected by his players for benching anyone not with the program, the shortcomings of several Farmer draft picks dominates locker room discussions of whether the team is headed in the right direction. Manziel and Gilbert have largely become the story of this otherwise hardworking team and there are players who loathe that fact. It would be one thing if both could hold their own on the football field. But they can’t.

To make up for the mess they made with Manziel and Gilbert, Farmer and Pettine together signed veteran quarterback Josh McCown and cornerback Tramon Williams — each of whom have been among Cleveland’s best players all season. But Cleveland’s roster is full of proven veteran players in the twilights of their careers — Karlos Dansby, Donte Whitner, Brian Hartline, Randy Starks. And winning teams can’t sustain success by shuffling in veteran free agents to mask misses in the draft. (They did it again in 2015, with linemen Danny Shelton and Cameron Erving. Both have been better than Manziel and Gilbert, but neither of the rookies have been organizational-changing players.)

The question becomes: Can you let Farmer and Pettine screw up another draft?

http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-hear...-from-the-start

[kquote]He took Nick Foles and had him operating at a pro bowl level.[/quote]

Yup, then he traded him for a guy that can't stay healthy.

I wish we had a Pro Bowl level QB...

I would take Chip Kelly the coach over most coaches currently in the league. Certainly over Pettine. He is 24-19 with Vick, Foles, Barkley, Sanchez, and Bradford as his QBs. Even this year, when he ruined the roster, the Eagles are 12th in offense.

I would take nearly every GM in the league over Chip Kelly the GM. Almost every personnel move he made this off-season has been unsuccessful and some are spectacular failures.

If I were the Titans I would be praying that the Eagles fire Kelly.

Chip Kelly the GM vs Eric Mangini the GM

Who do you take?

Oof. Probably Mangini, because at least you wouldn't be in cap hell.

I hate to break it to you and maybe you already know this. Chip Kelly sin't coming to this craphole if he's not the GM or at minimum has final say. Any coach worth hiring is going to demand that from this dysfunctional, crap organization.


If that's what it takes I give it to him. I'll take bad Eagles with Chip over bad Browns with Pettine and Farmer any freaking day.

Cap hell. Like that has ever mattered to the Browns. When was the last time they had to cut or not resign a player because they were up against the cap?

Butch Davis.

I definitely know this, just living in a hypothetical world for a moment.

Bonefish, I appreciate your thoughts. I am not that knowledgeable of front office people in the league. I will defer to your judgement on these men.

I'd take 5 years of cap hell cutting old players for a playoff appearance any day of the week. That was over a decade ago. Over a decade of being 60 million plus under the cap.

That was 2002, 13 years ago and Davis was fired in 04.

Either way, if both are terrible. Take the one that won't kill the cap.

what due you call the offense?what rank are they
right now manziel is playing better than bortles

I understand your point. Maybe you didn't totally understand mine as maybe I waqsn't clear.

If the decision is to can Pettine only, so be it. If the decision is to fire the GM, Haslam can do that, then let the new GM decide if Pettine is a guy he can work with moving forward.

I will say I am a bit at odds over benching Manziel over this last BS. Not BS because of what Manziel did. Pettine isn't this guys Daddy. As long as Manziel shows up for work, does the work, Pet shouldn't give a crap about what he does off campus unless it is illegal.

Pet....it's about winning games....something you haven't done much of lately.

I was a big fan of Pet up until now. How aboyt Pet doing something about his lap dog O'Neil who in preseason was talking about this D going to "Graduate" level on D now that they were a year in? LOL...what a joke that guy has turned out to be.

If I was Haslam, I'd tell Pet to fire him or I will fire him.

The thing is, I believe O'Neil is running Pet's D scheme.

IMO, you can fire O'neil but the D will stay the same as long as Pettine is here.

He is, that doesn't mean he is calling the right schemes on a play by play basis. Pet mostly called the plays last year and we had a pretty good D as far as points scored against.

In our setup, the GM *should not* have that power over the head coach. It is like having 2 mid level executives each reporting to the President. You don't ask them to work together, you tell them to do so.

If we hire a new GM, it should have no impact on the head coach, if what Haslam said about our setup is true. The GM does not hire the head coach, does not fire the head coach, and has no power and authority over the head coach. He is in a parallel position, equal in power and authority, but with different responsibilities.