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As I said before, I smoke, and the ban doesn't bother me. In fact, I could care less.
However, rather than being someone "whining about the nanny state", I would prefer to think that I'm looking out for your rights. What's next to be banned? Before you know it, talking on a cell phone while driving will be banned. (oh, that's right, in some areas it already is).
That's all well and good, and it's done in the name of " public safety". The problem, or at least my problem, is: what's next? Done in the name of public safety. burgers? Weed killer for your yard? Fertilizer? An alcohol ban? These aren't as crazy as you may think.
When you slowly give up "rights" for the public good, you slowly lose your ability to make choices. Pretty simple, really.
Do I have a right to blow smoke in your face? No. Do you have a right to tell me where I can smoke? Apparently. The next step will be smoking at home, then the next step COULD be you can only smoke "x" cigs a day.
The next step could be the cell phones, or who knows. Slowly giving up rights is slowly killing your ability to make a choice.
And further, what I find ironic is, there is not one state in this union that could balance their budget without the tobacco tax. (granted, many can't now, either). Eliminate smoking everywhere - ban it. Then watch your taxes go up, and up.
I believe, and I could be wrong, but I believe the tax in Ohio, per pack of smokes, is about $1.50 per pack.
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Actually Arch, you said burgers...
Food and obesity are next. At least I hope so.
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And I was wrong - from the limited search I did, the tax per pack is $1.25 - and honestly I don't know if that was before or after the $.70 increase they had 2 years ago. So, buck and a quarter, or buck and 3/4.
And bpg, you really want the gov't to start banning things? Sure, smoking is great, right? Banning burgers would be great, right?
Here's an idea. Why not let the gov't. tell us what we can and can't do, and when we can and can't do it? That'd make things alot easier. Especially when you consider all the taxes we pay - we may as well get something for it, right?
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I'm with you Michelle on this. No smoking in restraunts, but bars is fine (and I'm a non-smoker). I have no need/desire to inhale smoke while I'm having a nie dinner. When I'm in a bar, I expect the smoke. I hate smelling like an ashtray, but if I made the choice to go to a bar, that's the "price" I pay for it.
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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How about a tax an people that drive a truck? they are waisting gas!...Or a tax on people that use to much bubble gum? We can go on and on!...the fact is people care about nothing but what matters to them ! not what matters to the whole society.
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To take that one step further brownsbabe, the bars had the ability PRIOR to this law to be a non smoking establishment if they so desired. The opportunity was there. I even know of a bar not too far from here that opened maybe 10 to 12 years ago as a "non smoking" bar. After a couple of years, they changed that, and lo and behold, business increased as a result of being a "smoking" bar.
Now, I'm not one to go along with the doom and gloom approach many people have in regards to "banning smoking willl put me out of business", I just think it's foolish for the gov't to get involved and ban it altogether.
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I think if one wanted to be fair about the smoking law, it would word legislation to say that if you wanted your bar to be a non-smoking establishment, than law enforcement would back you up and fine someone for smoking in your establishment...
...as always when it comes to government motivation, I say it's money, money, money...not what good can we do or how can we make things better, but how can we get our hands into that money...they get money from every pack you buy, and now they'll be collecting money from private business owners who allow smoking in their establishments (and the ones who don't...if Joe Smoker gets caught having a puff in the bathroom, the bar owner who's removed the ashrtrays and posted the signs and dealt with his customer's displeasure can be made to pay for it).
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I'm not a smoker and I cannot stand the smell of smoke. I voted for the ban, but it wasn't because of the bar provision. It was because of the doorway provision. I remember going out to dinner, having a nice meal in a nice restaurant, coming outside and walking into a lungful of smoke right outside the door. In college, I remember there was a walkway from my dorm to the main sidewalk to get to the student center. That walkway, which was covered, was filled with smoke and the only way around it was to circle a good deal out of the way. I shouldn't have to walk through that. Even at my work, which has tobacco cessation classes on premises, there would always been clients or even coworkers who would stand right outside the door. I couldn't stand that. I'd mentioned it to those in charge, and nothing was done. I couldn't care less about bars, I don't frequent them, I don't care about them. It was the doorways and walkways issue that had me voting for it.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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Quote:
I think if one wanted to be fair about the smoking law, it would word legislation to say that if you wanted your bar to be a non-smoking establishment, than law enforcement would back you up and fine someone for smoking in your establishment...
...as always when it comes to government motivation, I say it's money, money, money...not what good can we do or how can we make things better, but how can we get our hands into that money...they get money from every pack you buy, and now they'll be collecting money from private business owners who allow smoking in their establishments (and the ones who don't...if Joe Smoker gets caught having a puff in the bathroom, the bar owner who's removed the ashrtrays and posted the signs and dealt with his customer's displeasure can be made to pay for it).
Dear Lord Jesus, exactly how fast is hell cooling? Cause I just agreed with phil, and that means hell is close to freezing, and that makes me very nervous.
Amen.
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And you shouldnt have to walk by fat people...or stupid people ...or a Mcdonolds ...or a gas station...or god forbid a farm...you know , with all the toxic fumes from the pig's and cattle!
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I'm with you Michelle on this. No smoking in restraunts, but bars is fine (and I'm a non-smoker). I have no need/desire to inhale smoke while I'm having a nie dinner. When I'm in a bar, I expect the smoke. I hate smelling like an ashtray, but if I made the choice to go to a bar, that's the "price" I pay for it.
And now the "price to be paid" by smokers is having to go outside to smoke instead of polluting the air for those who don't smoke.
Really no difference, except that those who want to smoke are now being inconvenienced instead of those who don't.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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NO! you dont get it! the whole debate is ....How can the goverment tell someone what to do?
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And you shouldnt have to walk by fat people...or stupid people ...or a Mcdonolds ...or a gas station...or god forbid a farm...you know , with all the toxic fumes from the pig's and cattle!
What does walking by fat people, stupid people, a gas station, a McDonald's or a farm have to compare with walking through a cloud of smoke? At worst, those smells are offensive, but not as unhealthy as walking through a cloud of smoke. I may cover my nose as I pass a farm that has spread manure, but I don't cough or potentially suffer health risks from that smell. You're trying to stretch really far to try and make a point, but none of those things are overly comparable, IMO...
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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NO! you dont get it! the whole debate is ....How can the goverment tell someone what to do?
The "government" didn't. The issue was out on the ballot, and the people decided ..... just like thousands of other issues, amendment, and initiatives have been decided over the past 2+ centuries. It was decided by a vote of the citizens. The citizens of this state decided that people shouldn't be subjected to smoke in an indoor facility, and, I might add, only in response to a cigarrette company initiative designed to overturn local laws already voted on by citizens.
In the end, the cigarrette companies screwed themselves and their customers. If people want to get mad at someone ....... that's who they should get mad at.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
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And you shouldnt have to walk by fat people...or stupid people ...or a Mcdonolds ...or a gas station...or god forbid a farm...you know , with all the toxic fumes from the pig's and cattle!
What does walking by fat people, stupid people, a gas station, a McDonald's or a farm have to compare with walking through a cloud of smoke? At worst, those smells are offensive, but not as unhealthy as walking through a cloud of smoke. I may cover my nose as I pass a farm that has spread manure, but I don't cough or potentially suffer health risks from that smell. You're trying to stretch really far to try and make a point, but none of those things are overly comparable, IMO...
Let's say you go out to a place 4 times a week, where you have to walk in past smokers, and out past smokers. You get maybe 4 whiffs of smoke, 4 times a week.
Guaranteed, that steak you eat once a week is worse for your health! Whatcha gonna do about that?
You live in a city? If so, walk outside and sniff in the diesel fumes from your city's mass transit busses, and also the exhaust from all the cars. Hundred times worse than sniffing cigarette smoke a few times a week.
Hey, let's face it, smokers have become the new evil. That's fine. Like I said, I wish everyone would/could quit smoking. Then you and people like you would get to see your taxes go up.
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All's im saying is ..where does it end? If we , as a society keep letting what the goverment can band ...and make money from....help us?....Sure people dont want to smell smoke! then Ban it! what about alcohol? Or fat food's? there need's to be some kind of even keel on what not or to ban...thats all im saying
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NO! you dont get it! the whole debate is ....How can the goverment tell someone what to do?
The "government" didn't. The issue was out on the ballot, and the people decided ..... just like thousands of other issues, amendment, and initiatives have been decided over the past 2+ centuries. It was decided by a vote of the citizens. The citizens of this state decided that people shouldn't be subjected to smoke in an indoor facility, and, I might add, only in response to a cigarrette company initiative designed to overturn local laws already voted on by citizens.
In the end, the cigarrette companies screwed themselves and their customers. If people want to get mad at someone ....... that's who they should get mad at.
It was on the ballot, people voted, and it is what it is.
Next on the ballot may be mowing your yard in flip flops. Or perhaps mowing while other humans are present. After all, you hit a stone, your mower could throw it and hurt someone.
Go back 20 years. At that time, no one ever imagined smoking would be banned, and now it is, and that's fine. However, fast forward 20 or 30 years. What else will be banned in the name of the public good? You might be surprised what you have in store for you, and all the while, you'll be paying more in taxes.
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The "government" didn't. The issue was out on the ballot, and the people decided ..... just like thousands of other issues, amendment, and initiatives have been decided over the past 2+ centuries. It was decided by a vote of the citizens.
That's exactly true,the voters decide. However by not letting ill people have Medical Marajuana after voters in many states voted for it seems not right
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Like I said, I don't care at all if people smoke in bars, my only problem was the doorways and walkways of non-smoking facilities and restaurants. There should, probably, be smoking restaurants and bars, IMO. Its bad business not to have them, but as a non-smoker, that doorway was like getting hit in the face when you walked outside. Plus, the doorway ban didn't ban smoking, it moved away from the doorway. That was my biggest issue when I went to vote. I didn't think it would help the economy, short-term at least, but when given the choice between two bad bills, I voted for the lesser of two evils, even though it wasn't an ideal bill in my mind. I could have voted no on both bills, but I wanted the doorways clean. If somebody comes up with a proposition allowing smoking in bars but still keeping the doorways and walkways clear, let me know and I'll sign it and vote for it. Until then, I haven't minded the changes at all in restaurants and at work.
[color:"green"] "World domination has encountered a momentary setback. Please talk amongst yourselves." Get Fuzzy[/color]
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And, log...perhaps if we would have voted the smoking ban down, it would have changed to only include restaurants and doorways this year. We won't find out now because it passed. Regardless, when people vote, I wish they would look at the ENTIRE picture of the bill, not just the parts that they choose to see.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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If you don't want to answer the question about whether a business should be forced to accommodate the handicapped just say so...
I believe it depends on the business, to be honest. I believe public buildings are now required to be built with handicapped access, aren't they? I think that's a good thing. But, to make someone change the store, restaurant, or bar they've had for 100 years is a bit much.
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I'm just trying to get some people to consider some of the other government "intrusions" into private business to see how they feel about it.. my guess is that most people will find some of that intrusion welcome and necessary and some over-the-line... that's my point. There is obviously a line to be drawn and if we know one thing about our government, once we give them the power to control an area of our lives, they never give it back....
I guess I'm willing to give and take a little on almost everything. Like the smoking ban...restaurants are fine with me. I hate smelling smoke while I eat. Bars...not okay...it's an ADULT establishment where other drugs are served. Wheelchair ramps -- as I said, fine with new construction but don't make Ma & Pa Barker change their 50 year family run business.
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I'm just trying to get away from the whining about the "nanny state" to dissect the issue a little deeper, that's all....
I understand. However, as I said to log, I just wish people would look deeper into issues than the ONE thing that stands out to them. If the smoking ban hadn't passed this time, they would have reworded it or changed a few things for the next time. I doubt the issue would have just been dropped.
I use the term nannies to describe those people that only think of themselves and want the government to control other peoples lives because they can't seem to control their own.  They cry about gay unions and get it passed. They cry about cigarrette smoke and get it passed. They cry and cry and before long this state will be full of the most BORING people you've ever met. They want everyone to be just like them. Who says, "Honey, I got a job offer in Ohio, aren't you excited?!?" Browns fans don't count. 
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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So let me see if I understand this...it is the government's fault that the people voted for a smoking ban? What if the governement said "To hell with it, we need the extra money more." Then people would be saying that they aren't representing him *which is true*. Face it, it's the law, it won't change, and we aren't communist. If we were, if I said Bush is the worst president of all time, in public, I wouldn't be alive the next day.
Last edited by Thebigbaddawg; 05/23/07 10:11 PM.
you had a good run Hank.
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Glad you edited that, cause I was about to point out the error you had, but, you got it.
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Glad you edited that, cause I was about to point out the error you had, but, you got it.
HOORAY COLLEGE EDUCATION FOR ME! 
you had a good run Hank.
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I love the smokeless OH. Its nice not having the house smelling like cigs just because I sopped for a beer I've been to concerts in smokeless Delaware no big deal, Canada is all non-smoking even the casinos. Maryland goes smokeless in Feb.  Non-smokers are Taking over the WORLD!!!
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The local pub and grub the wife and I like was planning to go smokeless before the ban anyway. We spend 60 or more there a week now, where we spent ZERO before,and the owner says family business has tripled since.
Just one bar in one locality, but I like to think I'll live a little longer not having to fight the smoke.
For everyone worried about the government invading their privacy and picking off their rights one by one, I say life's too short. Worry about what you can control. The government -- at every level -- is the most invasive person in your life ( next to your spouse ) and probably does more to benefit you than you will ever let yourself believe. The people voted for this ban --it is not a free--for--all government imposed whim, like TAXES are, or the naming of Federal holidays. What some of you call an "erosion of rights" is what some might say is the expansion of the freedom and right to breath clean air.
It used to be, businesses were allowed to have a "colored" water fountain,....
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I agree with you. Gov't does alot to support the poor, the common, and the rich person. The smoking ban has no effect on me, because when we go out to eat, my wife (non smoker) is with me, so I don't smoke. When I go to a bar...............hmmmmmm let me think........can't remember the last itme I was at a bar, so never mind.
However, to compare the individual right of smoking - i.e. each individual gets to choose whether they do or not - to a "colored drinking fountain" is crazy. See, in one situation, the person chooses, in the other, the people had no choice.
Oh, wait..........it's very similar, I guess. Instead of talking about color, we're talking about tobacco. Funny, what was wrong then is wrong now. Odd how that works, isn't it?
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I don't really have any reason to complain about bars because I don't frequent them. However I am tickled pink people can no longer smoke in resturants. My wife is highly allergic and even though we sat in no smoking sections she gets severe headaches.
#gmstrong
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(I think you finallly caught it),.... but I wasn't trying to match one right vs. the other,...rather pointing out that a certain right of a business owner had been eroded.
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(I think you finallly caught it),.... but I wasn't trying to match one right vs. the other,...rather pointing out that a certain right of a business owner had been eroded.
I finally caught it? Excuse me, but that's what I've been saying since the begining of this thread.
Perhaps YOU finally caught what I was saying?
And further, perhaps you realize that taking options away from people and businesses is not American? or didn't you catch that?
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After so many years of smoking 3 or 4 packs a day,, in November I quit smoking...
I Don't miss it at all..
But the way they are treating the bar owners is a little crazy,,, that thing where he smelled it in there and warned you,,, that's just stupid...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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And now the "price to be paid" by smokers is having to go outside to smoke instead of polluting the air for those who don't smoke.
Really no difference, except that those who want to smoke are now being inconvenienced instead of those who don't.
There is a big difference.
1st If your running a tab at the bar, you have to pay the Tab before you walk outside to smoke.
2nd Every time you run outside to smoke in a crowded bar, your going to lose your seat.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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No arch, I got it OK,....but I'm sure you will be happy if the government intrudes in the oil companies' business.
I'm only saying, again, life is too short. It is what it is. When the ban went into effect, the wife and I felt like someone was finally looking out for our interests. No harm to business owners intended; I stayed away from them before the ban. I didn't need a ban to exercise good common sense. The people voted and now I don't have to worry about it.
Good businessmen will find a way to overcome this obstacle -- THAT's the American way.
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smoking is soooooo high school
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Anti-smoking fascists. You bloodsuckers will be the death of us all, long before that little white stick does me in.
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Never been called a fascist before  ,...hey, there are a lot of bad things to say about a lot of American daily life. I smoke an occasional congratulatory or celebratory cigar,....but I refuse to violate the safe-breathing rights of others whilst I exercise a temporary lack of good judgement. It's just that simple.
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that's not very fair either.
Once a person reaches 18, it should be a trip straight to jail for using that phrase.
Go Irish!
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jc...
Down here they banned smoking in all malls, public buildings and establishments that serve food, unless your dining on a patio, then it's up to the restaurant.
Thing is, there were several local restaurant/bars that were up in arms, mostly the "Friday at 5:00" hangouts where the construction workers join up after a week of work. They raised a stink about how it will kill their business.
That was like 2 years ago, and recently one of the newspapers went back and did a follow up. Almost all the places from the original story have seen an increase in business after the first couple months, and only 1 says he actually saw a decrease after the ban.
Now this is Florida, so providing a deck or patio is much easier than in Ohio, but the same will be true up there, people adjust to it. And in the end, there's more people who don't want to be around the smoke all the time that will come out to these places now.
I don't agree with the ban in bars though, bars, beer and smoke just go together. The only requirement they had was to have ventilation systems installed. Most went with some ceiling mount filtration device, looks like a giant dehumidifier on the ceiling.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I believe it depends on the business, to be honest. I believe public buildings are now required to be built with handicapped access, aren't they? I think that's a good thing.
Pretty much all buildings except private dwellings have to be handicapped accessible. I think it's a good thing too, but it's not free, it's not even cheap. I forget the actual number but I read several years ago that businesses spend hundreds of millions of dollars a year on ADA requirements.... and it's the government that is forcing them to do it. What's coming next along these lines? Energy efficiency... right now the government has some energy requirements for new construction and the rest is voluntary, it won't be long before a lot of the voluntary becomes mandatory, and that's not cheap either.....
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I guess I'm willing to give and take a little on almost everything
Good, me too.
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Wheelchair ramps -- as I said, fine with new construction but don't make Ma & Pa Barker change their 50 year family run business.
New construction has to be completely compliant, existing buildings are grandfathered in, including Ma & Pa Barker... Most of the code deals with 2 things, getting in and out... and bathrooms. The way the code reads now is that you can have a non-code compliant bathroom, if you make changes to that bathroom, those changes have to be compliant. For example, if you take a toilet off the wall to put in a new one, the new one has to be compliant. That doesn't mean you just buy a better toilet, that means you might have to widen the stall, widen the door to the bathroom, put in a compliant sink... it gets pretty costly. I do believe there is a provision in there that allows Ma & Pa to apply for a waiver to prove that making everything compliant would create too much financial hardship.... oh well, probably more than you needed to know about ADA... just an example of something that was harshly fought by businesses when it was enacted, that is now commonly accepted and viewed as a good thing...
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I just wish people would look deeper into issues than the ONE thing that stands out to them. If the smoking ban hadn't passed this time, they would have reworded it or changed a few things for the next time. I doubt the issue would have just been dropped.
I understand completely, which is why politicians lump unpopular stuff in with popular stuff, that's the only way they can get it passed. Our laws still allow for it to be changed, you could lead the charge...
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I use the term nannies to describe those people that only think of themselves and want the government to control other peoples lives because they can't seem to control their own.
I think you have these people mischaracterized.. they aren't "selfish" per se, and they are sure that they are in complete control of their own lives. What they feel is that everybody would be better off if they were like them.
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
I'm quite sure many of the "knowlegeable" voters looked deeply into the issue before voting on it.  I've talked to many, many people who had no earthly idea that it also affected private clubs. It's really disheartening to read threads like this. The ME people are taking over and some are thrilled this is going to go even farther....to food, smoking in homes, etc. These are the same people who will be throwing a total hissy fit when it hits them in some way. I can't imagine what the size of the government is going to be when the people who want babysat are fully in control. It's not about smoking, it's about choices, I see no reason there cannot be establishments for smoking and non smoking. I would always choose to eat in a smoke free restauraunt, you can't tell me they wouldn't have done just fine on their own. If you prove to businesses they can profit from it, they will do it and many were starting to. The same with bars, if the majority of people want non smoking bars, bars would be foolish to not open non smoking bars right next to smoking bars, they would make a killing. The truth is, the vast majority of people who voted never step foot in a bar, they just get off on telling the rest of the country how they want them to live. It's a shame the Libertarians can't find an electable candidate, hopefully someday that will change. Hopefully, things won't be too far gone by then.
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