DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Case for Keeping Them

What do you mean? Last year and this year is two years.

He's saying all spread QBs take two years to develop. Which is not true.

The general rule of thumb with a spread QB is that it takes 2 years for them to develop to the level of NFL competence. I thought Johnny would develop faster as he was in a version of the WC in his redshirt year and he is also incredibly smart and he has shown a great deal this year.

Johnny has shown tremendous growth but I think even he would say he is just now starting to get it.

The last few spread QBs that were drafted high developed quite quickly. Cam, Mariota, Newton, Tannehill, and Dalton come to mind. I would take them as rookies over Manziel now (especially considering the off the field issues).

Keep everyone. (Except maybe O'Neil)

Draft the best playmaker, regardless of position, where ever you pick..

Throw a ton of money at Alex Mack, also resign Schwartz and Gipson.

Go hard ($$$) after GOOD FAs, guys going on their second contract, not their last..

Even if you have to risk some draft picks for RFAs.

We have the cap room, we have enough picks, its time to stop hoarding it all and actually use them.

Keep Johnny, name him the starter, I dont care if TMZ follows him around all offseason..

Give your young QB some weapons (Sup Josh Gordon) and allow him to come back next year already knowing the playbook..

If that doesnt work, then you can blow it up..

I agree. I think that for all of his faults, Pettine has handled Manziel very well. I think that he has pushed Manziel to improve in areas he most needs to improve in. I think that Manziel is one of those kids who thinks that he is perfect, and that he knows it all. He needed to be broken down, so he could be built back up the right way. An NFL QB has to be able to improvise, and make plays when the whole play goes to pieces, but he also has to make the plays that are there to be made. When a play calls for the throw to go to the RB for 8-12 yards, and that read is there, then that is the right play to take. I think that this is where Manziel has shown growth. Manziel has lessons to learn, that he did not want to learn .... but he has learned them nonetheless. At least some of the credit for that has to go to Pettine and the coaching staff.

j/c:

A lot of people post about how they wish we would have kept Chud. However, the team quit on Chud in his only season here. It was embarrassing to see how they laid down.

I am not a fan of this regime, but the players have NOT quit on Pet. They have continued to play hard and yesterday was no exception.

Why would we want to get rid of a 23-year-old QB who continues to improve and might be a legit NFL starter?

Because it didn't mesh with what the Johnny Haters have been harping on for two years?

McCown and Manziel don't play defence

All the talk about Coach Pettine developing Johnny Manziel is just pie in the sky thinking in my opinion. Pettine has done nothing to show he has developed Johnny Manziel. He has shown the opposite in my opinion. He chose to have a QB competition last year. He chose not to have one this year because McCown was such a great NFL QB with a pedigree. Josh gives us the best chance to win. Josh is our QB if he is healthy. How many times did we hear him say that?

Coach Pettine is 3-10 this season. We do not know anything about what happens in the locker room but we can see the results. They are sub par this season. I contend that it is because of Johnny Manziel that he has shown improvement as a NFL QB not coach Pettine. Johnny Manziel checked himself into rehab. Pettine did not drive him to the front door and sign him in. It was Manziel. Pettine did not move Manziel to a much more serene neighborhood in Cleveland instead of the partyville he was living in. Those are decisions Manziel made. I contend that Johnny saw that he did horribly last season and wanted to right his life and career.

I know these are all anecdotal examples. However, I have found that you can tell a lot about a person by the people he associates with. Johnny Manziel associates with successful people such as Lebron James. Pettine associates with Jim Oneal. Make up your own mind. In my opinion, Mike Pettine is holding the team back. The mantra of playing like a Brown under Mike Pettine is to lose games we could have won because of the coaching staff and to blame it on a 23 year old QB and a lack of talent on the team. I for one distrust anyone who blames others for their failures.

I know these are all anecdotal examples. However, I have found that you can tell a lot about a person by the people he associates with. Johnny Manziel associates with successful people such as Lebron James. Pettine associates with Jim Oneal. Make up your own mind.

Johnny Manziel has also associated with less than stellar people. Mike Pettine has associated with successful coaches. To limit it to one person for each and think that defines his character doesn't really pose a strong argument.

Yea, you could also just as easily say that Pettine associates with Brian Billick and Manziel associates with Justin Bieber...

I agree with Vol. at least on the part of Pet.

I think you can see a big difference in the play of these guys vs. the last 2 months. I think Jimmy took the bull by the horns. Like I said in another post, Jimmy has laid down the law. Pet has his check list, but failed to see that it only took out the passion of the players. ex: As long as your getting "a good" mark then relax. Even JT made the comment,"It's a Job". No, it's not just a job. You have to fight for every inch and have to want to win. I think Pet has taken this away from them with his check mark sheet. He seems to think that the Vets should know how to play hard and all out, all the time. The trouble with that is, you tend to back off and coast when you don't have someone pushing your back all the time. That's the trouble with it, you need to be pushing these guys all the time.

Please don't do that. Be excited, but also be realistic.

Manziel has started six games (six!) and has tons of off the field baggage. He is nowhere near a franchise QB.

We would be FOOLS to ship JFF out of town before we know for sure, and that can't happen with the current roster and IMHO Staff.

I think it's the opposite. If we keep Manziel we have to keep at least the offensive staff. We don't want him to have to change offenses again. Three offenses in three years would be brutal. And then next year people would be saying, "We don't know if he's good or not, he's had to learn three offenses in three years!"

I would draft a QB with a higher floor before I kept Manziel.

I can honestly say that I don't even consider their "floor" when looking at QBs in the first round... other positions I do but QBs.. They need to have the high ceiling, which i believe Manziel has... Drafting a guy with a high floor who can keep you at 8 or 9 wins for 10 years does nothing for me without that high ceiling.

You don't actually think you are realistic, do you?

You do realize this sounds like the plot of some romance/sports film, right?

We all have our dreams.

He said that he was realistic in the same post! The same post!

I was just joking with Tab in my post.

No humor allowed here. (although the common word for "poop" must be. I've seen it twice today in the threads)

I wasn't.

You got the wrong guy.



This is a message board. We are allowed to call each other out when we don't agree.



Wait, now I'm confused. Do you actually believe what you say or are you just trying to falsely pump people up?

Which is what I thought. That's why I wanted to point out the difference.

Mike Pettine has to stand on his own merits. He is the HC. Johnny Manziel stands on his own merits. He is 2-2 as a starter this year. Manziel did not ask to be benched during the bye week. Johnny Manziel did not ask to be put back as the backup in week 3 after leading the team to a victory. These are Pettine's decisions. My point about who you associate with is that Johnny Manziel is a 23 year old man. He has always been successful on the football field. Pettine is a 50ish old man who has been riding the coattails of others his entire life and when given an opportunity to succeed, he bungles it horribly. Lebron, Bieber are both successful now. They are both young men. What would Pettine's failures be attributed to? He is senile??

[quoteI agree with Vol. at least on the part of Pet.

I think you can see a big difference in the play of these guys vs. the last 2 months. I think Jimmy took the bull by the horns. Like I said in another post, Jimmy has laid down the law. ][/quote]

Yep, it's all Pet's fault. If we fire him and replace him w/another "up-and-comer," all this talent that the genius Farmer acquired will start to shine and we'll be in the playoffs.

Guaranteed!!!!

Yep, it's all Pet's fault. If we fire him and replace him w/another "up-and-comer," all this talent that the genius Farmer acquired will start to shine and we'll be in the playoffs.

Guaranteed!!!!

[/quote]

HAHA, I love your optimism. That is not what I said. What I mean is that we do not see what the talent truly is yet from the Farmer draft. Manziel has done as well as or better than other second year QB's with his 2-2 record with the Browns. Gilbert was not thrown at in the last game he played. He went out with a concussion because he was also returning kicks. What the hell was he doing returning kicks if you have him as your CB1? Does Joe Haden return kicks? It was a misuse of the players IMHO. Pettine really is not that good in evaluating talent IMHO. It is okay to disagree with my opinion, not everyone can be right.

Voleur

Could you post the rushing stats as well? How about points scored per game? The QB stats are nice to look at but the scoring is not up and the rushing game is down. No one thinks McCown is a starting QB in the NFL outside of this coaching staff.

That is a good point Mac.

Maybe we don't have to blow it up. Just get Pettine to coach his players and be less a daddy to some of them. Get a new GM.

j/c:

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/12/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_39.html#incart_2box

I'm posting this article because here is yet another quote of first round selections being influenced by others beyond the GM/scouting department....



I'm not posting this in support of the idea to keep Farmer and fire Pettine. I still stick to the idea of keeping them BOTH. Yes, a minority opinion I'm sure, but that is still how I feel at this point.

However, I am posting this because it shows YET ANOTHER writer/journalist/source/whatever claiming that certain picks have been the influenced by other people in Berea.

Manziel= Haslem
Gilbert= Pettine
Shelton= Pettine

I do find is curious that Farmer is widely considered more successful, or at least to be determined w/ picks, when selections are made after the first round or his record thus far with UDFA. I wonder why that is? Could it at that point, he and the scouting department are given full autonomy because, after the first couple of rounds, it's not as glamorous or impactful?

Anyways, time after time, we are hearing credible writers (like Terry Pluto) site the fact that many parties are involved with early draft picks. If we want to blame people on selections, I think many other people need to be called out beyond the personnel department.

I also think that Pettine can improve with his game management calls simply through experience. I have no idea what players think about him at this point, but they played hard for him last Sunday.

Side Note: I wouldn't be opposed to going to a 43 Base with this personnel next year, minus a few changes.

If you can't successfully refute someone's point, insult them and hopefully they will stop calling you out.

"Being realistic is the most commonly traveled road to mediocrity"

Will Smith

I think Eo is one of the most realistic posters on here.
I think we have to keep JM no matter who's gonna be here.
If that means cleaning house, then so be it. I agree with Eo, I think JM has got it.

Edit: Vers. I don't know if we have to blow it up. But..Pettine just ain't getting it. He's to bull headed. I would like to know why it's taken over 7-8 games for him to finally change the D. Did you read where he said that "the coaches and players had to start to work a lot harder and play harder and coach harder? I'm sure I'm paraphrasing, but My question is Why Now? Why Not all year? It's like he's so bull headed that he refused to try anything until it's to late. Now were sunk in the standings, but now he wants to try working harder. Why Not When We Still Had A Chance? That's my gripe.