DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Joe Thomas selected to PFWA All-NFL Team

We'd go winless without this line. Our QB's had about 4 seconds to throw every play (Average, from what I've always heard, is 3 seconds). Our line consistently opened lanes for running backs to be tackled in, because our FB doesn't want to block anyone.

Coach what is your plan to neutralize Joe Thomas?

We plan to put our weakest player on him and one that can't possibly get to the QB.

So you want to insure no blind side hits on their QB for the entire game? Brilliant!

So lets take a look at my hypothesis and see how this can be possible with the numbers you posted.

I state that a normal DC, facing the Browns OL would be stupid to be challenging JT, but instead shift the best pass rusher, blitz the orther side, or wherever JT isn't playing.

That would make JT appear a much better player, when in fact he wasn't even being challenged... kind of the same on the CB /Haden shutout cb myth.

Now, unlike Hadden, to me JT is the best pass protecting LT in the game, but that doesn't change the fact that with so many weak spots it would be stupid to challenge him.

The fact that he takes all snaps, it could be the consequence of him not being pushed to his limits... Very seldom I see him place himself in physical risk situations.. giving it all so to say...

Just a note IMHO when JT is in fact challenged he isn't that dominant... but I guess that's just natural...

Yep, a turnstyle is what that guy is!

I take that by now, you are realizing that the plan isn't that stupid, is it?

Unless you consider that pushing JT is much smarter then pushing KS....

By the way, you can still hit the blind side, its not that you can't rush the corner or another LB...

So yes, I can see it now, sorry. I can see BB or another DC rushing 2 on the weak side... hummm I'll send my best pass rusher to push JT and the worst to beat the RB/FB.... its so much smarter then to occupy JT with the worst LB and send the best pass rusher to beat the RB/FB/TE... hum how brilliant am I, time to become the DC for the Cleveland Browns....

No the plan is pretty stupid.

So now I'm the Brown's OC and I know which side the pass rush is coming from the entire game. I'm not going to send my extra blockers to Schwartz's side, roll the QB away from that, or run 10 consecutive plays right behind Thomas. Nope not me.

Now you are digging your grave, because what you state is that JT is doing it right now even against top pass rushers....

So the Cleveland OC, according to you is already doing it and we are being successful.... well ... you are kind of making it easy for me.

So if you can beat our OL rushing the best pass rusher against LT (which wins the batle every time), imagine what you can do if you use your best pass rusher and move it away from JT.

Maybe by now you can understand why we say that a strategic key (impact player in this case) can't ever be a reactive element (a LT)... that applies to all, not just football.

You can't ever win wars if you don't leave the castle.. well you can if you face a stupid general...

https://twitter.com/NateUlrichABJ/status/690234583258943488

If you put a weak LB in front of JT, he is going to say "Thank You, I'll take two." Blitz the CB on that side as well and the QB throws to the uncovered flat.

Your master plan of "go where they ain't" works on offense too, I'll just tell my RB to run in the areas where there aren't any tacklers. We could get thousands of rushing yards a game with that plan.

Don't steal it! I plan on filing a patent for it.

Good one, mac.

Who, with any credibility at all, believes that Joe Thomas is a low character guy, who is only competent because he plays on a bad team, and would rather fish than play football?

I think in most of the positions in the NFL you will find this pattern, but in the case of LT there are some specifics that can explain the situation.

First, because LT are considered safe picks, this positions require some physical athletic traits that explain very well the success in the NFL, has a player. Does this means they are hard to find? No they don't. They are easy to find but are scarce, leading to high draft picks. Kickers and Punters share part of this traits but they physical skills required are more common, which leads them to be picked in low rounds.

Second, LT are safe picks and scouts and GMs don't like to look like fools.But this is not rational because statistical if you are facing with higher odds you need fewer tries to be successful. Meaning the rational thing to do is if the position is riskier, to pick more and not less of the positions.

Third, like you have showed evidence, it appears that there is no correlation between the quality of LTs and the success of the team.... We for sure can vow for this, and more and more teams have huge amounts of money tied with lineman and year after year find themselves on the bottom of the basement.

Finally, we cannot discard the stupidity of people drafting, again Cleveland can vow for this. Moves like drafts full of a particular player position (WR's, DB's, etc) and we don't draft this position. Drafting a 2cb ahead of a #1WR. Drafting positions of strength instead of upgrading the team. Drafting well known head cases... etc...etc

In the end, on modern football its very hard to remember the LT of a SB/dynasty winning team, and harder to remember a LT that impacted the game. Several WR's, RB's,LB's, QB's, WR's, CB's come to mind. LTs...hum nope ... Ogden maybe... Walter Jones...

Sorry low character not in the sense of a thug, but someone with virtual no leadership or inspiring qualities. A competent professional/ a mercenary if you like, someone that doesn't mind if he is a loser, providing he can go fishing early in the season.

He does his job, and does his job well, but that's it. That was the sense I was speaking, no derogatory meaning of JT, which is a player I have admiration for. But not a leader, not a captain, not someone who has the competitive hedge to be the face of the franchise, or to turn things around.

So who else feels that way?

I guess all the ones that don't mind that we trade him...

But also don't mind if he stays...

By the way, I never had any issue with JT draft, I always thought it was a good choice..although, unlike many, I never disliked Kevin Shaffer, but clearly JT was a massive upgrade.

I had problems with the Mack trade and passing on a "bona fide" pass rusher, and I had many problems passing on "bona fide" WR's for several drafts in a row...

I don't know, the linemen have pretty much followed his footsteps. All of them are high class guys, hard working and intelligent. I think you're asking a lot from a linemen to lead a team. I don't know any skill position that's going to bow down to a linemen, no matter how good he is.

Indianapolis Colts.

[drops mic]

You opened this up with "I'm not the only one who feels this way".. I'm just asking you who else feels this way.. are we talking about you and your drinking buddies or you and Bob in accounting? Or has somebody with any credibility said these things about Joe Thomas?

I have to admit there are some good lines on this board.

AHAHA LOL drink budies, you are killing me. :-)

Nop, unfortunately I'm not a drink buddy of the people on our front office....~

I'm kind of used to it.... with Joe Haden was the same thing, except in the case of JT I actually think he is an elite player

So there are people in our front office who think Joe Thomas shows no leadership, doesn't care if we lose, and would rather be fishing?

I actually think that the only ones who see JT with leadership qualities, and think that he actually cares about winning are people in this board...

I think you are projecting an image of someone who never was like that, not even when his QB was taking vicious hits and playing concussed.

He's not even accountable for his unit play, the OL...So many years, so many stupid penalties, so many drives stopped for struggling QB's because of penalties on the line... Just business has usual..

In all this years of JT playing for us, I don't remember a single moment he ever placed himself at risk for the sake of the team. Maybe he did but not even that was used to spark the team.

The fishing thing... well remember his draft....

So in other words, you have no actual information of anybody in any position of authority, who feels like you do. Got it. We can move on now.

You can move one, or stay, or do whatever you feel like. :-)

We were talking about the possibility of JT being traded, or not? Losing the face of a losing franchise doesn't sound that bad to me, and IMHO he deserves to play for a good team.

People on message boards and in the press were.

Yes, but not because he doesn't care and he would rather be fishing... you are the one who injected that.


If you have one guy who shows up every week and plays at a high level, you don't trade him because the rest of the team is poor...

Then all you are doing is creating another need to fill... taking a known strength and making it yet another unknown future draft pick who may or may not turn out to be as good..


Fair enough but it's not the Browns responsibility to make sure Joe Thomas gets to play for a good team or to provide a solid left tackle so some other team can go from good to great... it is their job to make the Browns better and Joe Thomas should be a part of that.

http://www.footballperspective.com/thoughts-on-drafting-offensive-tackles-high-in-the-first-round/







One of the highest bust rates in the NFL. If you want safe, pick guard center or safety. Teams reach because they have to keep their QB's upright.



2015 Superbowl

Pats Nate Solder 1st / 17th pick / 2011
PFW & SN All-Rookie (2011)
First-team All-Big 12 (2009, 2010)
Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year (2010)

Seattle Russell Okung 1st / 6th pick / 2010
Pro Bowl (2012)
First-team All-American (2008, 2009)
Jim Parker Trophy (2009)
Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year (2009)
First-team All-Big 12 (2008, 2009)
Dick Bogert Award (2006)

2014 Superbowl

Seattle Russell Okung 1st / 6th pick / 2010
Pro Bowl (2012)
First-team All-American (2008, 2009)
Jim Parker Trophy (2009)
Big 12 Offensive Lineman of the Year (2009)
First-team All-Big 12 (2008, 2009)
Dick Bogert Award (2006)

Denver Ryan Clady 1st / 12th pick / 2008
5× Pro Bowl (2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014)
2× First-team All-Pro (2009, 2012)
Second-team All-Pro (2008)
AFC champion (2013)
Pepsi NFL Rookie of the Week (2008)
Ed Block Courage Award (2010)
Consensus All-American (2007)
Second-team All-American (2006)
First-team All-WAC (2006, 2007)

2013 Superbowl

Baltimore Michael Oher 1st / 23rd pick / 2009
Super Bowl champion (XLVII)
AFC champion (2012)
Unanimous All-American (2008)
First-team All-SEC (2007, 2008)
Jacobs Blocking Trophy (2008)

San Fran Joe Staley 1st / 28th pick / 2007
5× Pro Bowl (2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015)
3× Second-team All-Pro (2011, 2012, 2013)
NFC champion (2012)
Ranked #75 in the Top 100 Players of 2014
Ranked #78 in the Top 100 Players of 2013
Ranked #67 in the Top 100 Players of 2012

2012 Superbowl

Giants Will Beatty 2nd / 60th pick / 2009
2008 First-team All-Big East
Super Bowl Champion (XLVI)
NFC Champion (2011)

Patriots Matt Light 2nd / 48th pick / 2001
3× Pro Bowl (2006, 2007, 2010)
First-team All-Pro (2007)
3× Super Bowl champion (XXXVI, XXXVIII, XXXIX)
5× AFC Champion (2001, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011)
Madden Most Valuable Protectors Award (2010)
Tuesday Morning Quarterback Non-QB Non-RB NFL MVP Award (2007)
New England Patriots All-2000s Team
New England Patriots 50th Anniversary Team
First-team All-Big Ten (2000)

2011 Superbowl

Green Bay Chad Clifton 2nd / 44th pick / 2000
2× Pro Bowl (2007, 2010)
Super Bowl champion (XLV)
NFC champion (2010)
Ranked #99 in the Top 100 Players of 2011

Pittsburgh Max Starks 3rd / 75th pick / 2004
SEC Championship (2000)
First-team All-SEC (2003)
2× Super Bowl champion (XL, XLIII)
3× AFC champion (2005, 2008, 2010)
Ed Block Courage Award (2011)

Okay, that's the last 5 Superbowls

That looks like a pretty impressive list to me. Mostly 1st rounders, a couple of 2nd rounders and one 3rd.

There's an awful lot of Pro Bowl appearances on that list.




Anthony Munoz
Walter Jones
Orlando Pace
Jonathon Ogden
Matt Light
Tarik Glenn
Ryan Clady
Jordan Gross
Tra Thomas
Flozell Adams
Chris Samuels
Willie Anderson
Gary Zimmerman
Willie Roaf
Art Shell
Forest Gregg
Dan Deidorf

I could keep going but I am pretty sure those guys made an impact.

I skipped the part about the Browns drafting wacky because it has nothing to do with left tackles being valuable or not.

I think that the point is this:

You cannot build an NFL team mainly upon the basis of having a great OL. A great QB can offset, in many ways, the need for a dominating unit. Look at the Pats. How do they protect Brady? By having him throw the ball in roughly 2 seconds. That is a way to defeat all pressure. Even a bad OL can deliver that level of protection. Manning did the same, consistently, up to this year.

I think that is the real point. Is the OL the most important building block? The Browns have, in many ways, treated it as though it is. However, having one of the best OL in the NFL has not translated into wins. People bring up Dallas, but they had Romo and Murray as well as that OL. They also had Dez Bryant, and Witten. Was the OL the reason they won games, or was it the QB and playmakers? Obviously a team needs a competent OL. However, do they need a dominating unit? In many ways, a team with the right QB does not. I think that was the point that rastanplan was making, and I think that it is a valid point. Should the Browns throw a majority of resources into the OL, or into the QB and offensive weapons? I think that we have seen what having a great OL without weapons brings us. I do not for a second think, for example, that we should allow key members of the OL to walk. However, if a guy like Schwartz, who I think is one of the best RT in the NFL, decides to go elsewhere, then should we invest another high draft pick to replace him, or sign a veteran guy who can play for another year or 2, plugging in pieces at that spot while adding a QB, weapons, and scorers on offense? I look at today's NFL, and I don't see many great OL being the difference maker for a team, taking a bad team and making them a good team. I see a lot of late round picks and UDFA being capable OL, and parts of high quality teams.

Look at the Patriots. They do have a former 1st rounder, and a former 2nd round pick. The rest? 4th round to UDFA. The OL is not the difference on their team.

How about the Broncos? This year, for most of the season, they fielded an OL with 4 former 3rd round picks, and a former 6th rounder. (and granted, they had an injury ... but they made the AFC Championship game with this OL) Would they prefer a great OL? Sure. However their investments are in the QB, and weapons.

The Cardinals brought in Mike Iupati, but other than that, they have quite a few mid round guys.

I think that OL is one position where guys can be developed. I have long held the opinion that John Greco is one of the upper tier Guards in the NFL. He was a failed 3rd rounder with the Rams. He came here, and developed. I think that this is the tact a lot of good teams take .... build the OL with capable players, and the offense with a great QB and great weapons.

That's nothing new. You still need the QB above everything. It's not like the Browns haven't drafted any. Just not any that were very good.

Then you are going to need to protect that QB, because if he gets hurt, you are back to where you started.

I am betting that Peyton Manning was wishing that he had a little better blindside protection on his last year playing for the Colts. It might have extended his career a few years.

Can't agree less with some of this. Lines are crucial to this day. Big uglies still are a huge difference. JT also represents some security. Class to spare in spite of those around him. Can't oppose your right to an opinion; just disagree. I will keep reading.

The NFL is good enough that if you are weak in areas, other teams will know it and they will exploit it.

When you have average, at best, RBs... average to below average QB play... below average WRs... slightly above average TE.. even a great OL isn't good enough to overcome that and we didn't have a great OL, we had a good OL with a couple great pieces.

We were also average to below average in pretty much every unit on defense for most of the season....

This is not singularly on talent either, some of it is based on production (or lack of) due to schemes, etc...

So I will agree with you, great QB play can overcome a lot of other obstacles... but when you have a pretty good OL and almost everything else is below average, that's not a recipe for success.

I think Y-Town's post said it all. As far as OL goes, ours has been considered near the top for how many yrs.? And how many QB's have we used to get through the season? 3-4? Whens the last time our starting QB lasted the whole season? So much for our elite line protecting our QB.

When (if) we have solid QB play AND we have WRs that can get open AND we perhaps figure out how to run the ball... protecting the QB will become a whole lot easier..... but, even in the best of cases, a QB is going to take big shots.

Brady does, Manning does.... they all do. The key to slowing it down is having the rest of the offense do its job well enough to enable you to make them pay every time they try to bring the heat. You need a QB with above average recognition skills for that. If you can make them pay, then they have to back off and find a different way to beat you. If you cannot make them pay, they've already beaten you and it won't stop.

If you put Brady behind our o-line he probably wouldn't get sacked the entire season. When they take weeks to throw like ours do though, it doesn't matter.

Now trade away a Joe Thomas and see how comfortable you are paying Brady $20 mil a year and having Cam Erving blocking his blind side.

"We have a good line and it isn't helping." does not equal "You don't need a good line."

Football games are still won in the trenches.

I agree Prpl.. our QBs don't get hit any more (or any more violently) than most other teams QBs.. I don't know why ours always seem to get hurt. And not just "miss a game" hurt, but like done for 5 weeks hurt.

A few reasons, I think:

1. Ours put themselves in bad positions more frequently and regularly because they end up trying to do to much to make something happen
2. our seasons end sooner, so it's nothing for us to just shut down a guy and play a backup "to see what he's got"
3. other QBs miss time, too (Brady's knee, Manning's neck).... it's just common for us.

I agree with those. But for #3, it's EVERY YEAR for us.. Yea, Brady missed time... since the year he was named the starter, he has started all 16 games in 13 of 14 seasons..

Manning played his first 13 years without missing a start, missed one entire season, then came back and played the next 3 without missing a start..

Rodgers has started all 16 games in 5 of his 8 seasons and in 1 where he didn't, they sat him in Week 17 by choice.

Part of being a great QB, is being able to stay on the field...