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Your imagination?

Right now they are putting the full court press on Malik. I think they are going to tag Miller and take their chances on Osweiller.

I am a little puzzled as well. QB at #2, a WR after that. But we need an enforcer type on D, a pounder, a game changer. Love Haden, hope he comes back healthy and plays lights out, but I haven't seen the level of play that he has had in the past. Has gotten beat badly at times, and we need to consider sand account for his availability in light of the stats. Putrid pass "rush" as schemed and lame effort exposed the corners and flats even more. I think I add CB to the short list of needs. Probably not a drafted starter.

I think they know they have Osweiler in their back pocket.

our D should have been better last year what with the signings and the players we got through the draft. I think a lot of it was the scheme and poor coaching. We do need a couple of Ilb's and a pass rusher maybe even another CB but all I'm saying is that our D should have been better than it was.

Hard to evaluate a defense when Johnson Bademosi is prominently involved.

I think for the majority of posters this is because of the attention the media pays to QBs, (and WRs for that matter). Those are the sexy positions so they get more press focus which makes the average fan focus on them. The media does cover all the positions but it's the QBs who get the majority which makes them seem so important even if there's no real important QBs available.




I read the hell out of those posts but rarely add my opinion because my opinion is worth squat on the subject of player evaluation. Steve brought up something that explains a lot of my uncertainty and that is I'm never sure if it's the players or the coaching/scheme responsible for the bad defense. Not understanding the Xs and Os nor evaluation of positions it leaves a chump like me helpless in that kind of conversation. But I do read the posts and try to absorb as much as I can.

The last time Horton was here I saw something that made me think about coaching/scheme. The previous season we couldn't stop the run to save our lives. When Horton took over nobody could run on us for the first 5-6 games, NOBODY. We were top 5 rush defense at the beginning of that season. That was using the same roster as the year before. So maybe coaching can help. It couldn't hurt.



And that keeps them up front in the draft news and so also up front in the average fan's focus, add the WRs to that mix as well.

Funny how the perception of Pet can change so drastically in one year. LOL

Anyway....I think people have made--and are making--too big of a deal over the terrible coaching by Pet and O'Neil.

We are replacing them w/Horton. You brought his name up, but your information seemed incomplete. So, I looked up the Brown's defensive rankings while Horton was here.

Points: 27th
Yards: 27th
Passing Yds: 22nd
Rushing Yds: 30th

One could conclude that the rankings are eerily similar and that your post was deceiving.

I agree with that. I also believe that since the QB position has been a total wreck since our return, it's only natural to expect that.



While I agree with you, other than QB's like an Andrew Luck type, which is a once in a decade type prospect, I believe every QB in every draft has risk associated with him.



I definitely feel that Cousins will be the very best of the FA QB's IF he even becomes available. But what I consider into the equation with Osweiler is he's had years to progress and I certainly don't see the development one would hope for at this stage of his career.



While we don't always agree on our evaluations, you have proven to be right enough that I always consider them.



No, I believe I made it clear that it was strictly my opinion. And I would never say that he's "in charge of the draft".

What my opinion is, is that a top HC prospect would not choose Cleveland as his destination without some guarantee that he would have his choice of QB's to build around. I believe he would have had other options at his disposal that would have been far more attractive offers had he not been given some leeway there.

Sure it's simply a guess on my part, but to me it's a guess that makes a lot of sense.

Check those rankings over the first 5 games, not the entire season. I remember what ddubia is referring to; our run defense was stout at the outset. Then, we had an injury or two and things began to unravel.

Stout?

Game 1:
Ivory+Powell 32 runs, 153yds, 2 TDs

Game 2:
McCluster+Sankey 22 runs, 140yds

Game 3:
Murray+T.Jones 28 runs, 155yds, 1 TD

Game 4:
Gordon+Woodhead 20 runs, 92yds

Game 5:
Forsett+Allen 29 runs, 179yds, 1 TD

Stout? Run D sucked all season

It would take research, but I seem to remember thinking our run d didn't look all that bad in most of those games (I know what the numbers are).. it never seemed like we were giving up 5 yards a pop.. it seemed more like we would have a bunch of nice stops then let somebody break one for 40...

This comment reminds me of Butch Davis postgame apology for Jamal Lewis' rushing record

Was he talking about this season or 2013 when Horton was here?

I stand corrected.

Thought the discussion was about the 2015 Browns D.

Horton's D wasn't perfect, but much better than last year's. Almost impossible to do worse.

Agree 100%. Sounds like they've decided to keep Kruger and hope to keep Gipson. Hopefully Horton can get them to party like its 2013.

Horton in his presser (yes, I'm listening to them again) said specifically that Kruger will get his opportunities to rush, he wants him to rush - but that he needs (as Horton said) a Batman to his Robin, or a Robin to his Batman on the other side.

I guess he's not impressed with Mingo or Orchard. He was asked about Mingo too, and he said he hope he embraces his role so I don't know if Mingo's role will change much for an occasional rusher/mostly drop back LB.

Man do we need solid rusher in this draft.

The season is 16 games long. And the Browns had a ton of injuries this past year.

Should we pick 5 games from the Pet tenure to make a definitive statement? If so, I'll pick them. LOL

This simply is not accurate.

Previously, Horton was here for one season. To be certain, I went to Pro-Football-Reference.com. The season was 2013-14. Spent an hour viewing the season stats for defense on nfl.com. I confirmed those numbers by also going to teamrankings.com. The defensive rankings are also the same on Pro-Football-Reference with the exception of Scoring Defense where I could not find an entry.

Total Defense or, Average Opponent Yards Per Game - 332.4 was 9th overall.

Rushing Defense or, Average Opponent Rushing Yards Per Game - 111.3 was 18th overall.

Passing Defense or, Average Opponent Passing Yards Per Game - 221.1 was 8th overall.

Scoring Defense or, Average Opponent Points Per Game - 25.4 was 25th overall.

This is what I was speaking of...

"Since the Browns returned in 1999, they've never had a defense this good. Not even close.

It's only five games and much can change, but the fact is that Ray Horton's defense is ranked No. 4 in the NFL."

The impressive aspect is how solid the defense has been in nearly every aspect: Third in sacks, seventh vs. the pass, eighth vs. the run, ninth in points allowed. It's the type of quick, swarming, aggressive defense that the front office and head coach Rob Chudzinski pictured when they hired Horton, who lost his job as Arizona's defensive coordinator following a head coaching change."

Terry Pluto

That's what I was talking about, the first 5-6 games. I didn't think that anyone would take it as I was implying that Horton's defense kept that up for the entire year.

Not deceiving at all.



What I posted had nothing to do with Pettine, nothing. Steve brought up coaching and I remembered how fast out of the gate the Browns defense started in 2013 with the coaching change. That is all I was saying. A coaching change can sometimes help. The fact that they couldn't sustain their success is, of course, the rest of the story.

I didn't think I had to qualify that by including the additional information that the defense did not finish well since I was only talking about the possible effect a coaching change can have and the stats bears that out over the first 5-6 games of that year.

I thought I made it clear that was all I was talking about, a possible quick turnaround with a change in coaching/scheme.

Vers. I know we pi$$ back and forth about the QB's in this draft, but let's look at this D. We can fix this thing.

Do you agree our pass rush under Horton was better?

Do you agree our Run D under Horton was better?

Both until the dreaded injuries started coming down on us.

I say we build up more on the front 7. We need to sign Gipson or slap a Tag on him. He was a ballhawk in Horton's D. I believe he wants to stay because of it.

LB has been our biggest problem for years dating back to Jackson.

Kruger had a solid year under Horton. I was afraid when we signed him that he benefited being opposite Suggs in Baltimore. You loved the signing. He did benefit from being opposite Suggs.

Hence. Let's get him someone opposite of him to put pressure on the backfield. And an ILB thumper. Those 2 moves would be major upgrades to this D under Horton.

Question is WHO to target. I know who my ILB choice is. Ragland at 32 cause we're going QB at 2.

The OLB is the wildcard. Who's worth it in FA? Who's available at 65?

We've got a load of cap space and we've gotta spend alot of it per rules.

We should sign Schwartz and Gipson. Go get Marvin Jones and the OLB in FA. Hope Ragland is there at 32. Hell, I'd move up for Rags.

We've tried everything, front end and back end to fix this damn defense over the years. Time to concentrate on the LB's for once.

Hmmmm...........I actually looked them up. I certainly didn't do it from memory. I just went to several more sites and the rankings are different, but yours appear to be closer to the norm than mine were.

I apologize.

OK, two sets of stats that differ significantly. Which set is correct?

I think that the Brown's defense is bad. I think a lot of Farmer's moves weakened the defense. Guys that were productive in 2013, such as Skrine, Ward, Taylor, Rubin, Sheard, Taylor, Winn, etc are no longer here. I also think that Haden can't be counted on going forward.

I think the team needs help on defense for sure, but more than anything, the defense is lacking a true impact player. It was lacking that guy in 2013, 2014, and 2015.

I think a true impact player, such as a pass rusher who teams have to game-plan against, is a huge need.

Go research it. I just spent 20 minutes going to over 10 different sites. There are a lot of different numbers out there. Be careful, because some are reversed. For example, one had Seattle at number 32, but they were actually first. It appears guard's are more accurate. I know one thing, I now have a headache.

I do wonder why the stats are so different on various sites?

Agree 100%. Outside of a "franchise" QB, it is our biggest need. But not only the one guy, but pass rush in general is essential if we are to take any significant leap ahead...

Yeah. I think that if the Browns do get that one guy, it will help open things up for some of the other guys like Kruger, Orchard, D. Bryant, Mingo, etc.

Btw------did you try and look up those defensive stats? It's mind numbing to see so many different rankings.

In process...

I'm serious, I got a headache because there are so many different rankings. Wonder why that is?

I don't think there's a superstar pass rusher in this class. Watch this class, then go watch Myles Garrett.

I checked 3 sites - ESPN, Yahoo Sports and NFL.com. All 3 had the Browns rated identical: #8 passing and #18 rushing.The NFL.com stats are tricky to read as they are listed in inverse order...

I watched him. I even said he was best player in college football on one early season thread.

Look man.........I get it. You are in love w/the idea of drafting a qb at number 2, but do you really have to diss every other prospect in this draft to get your point across? I already get it. You are convinced that qb is the way to go. You can stop w/the charade.

Vers, Which D player do you want at 2? Don't give me a position or a side of the ball. Give me a name.

You've made your position clear. You don't want a QB (auto correct kept trying to make that queztion-ha) at 2, which D guy are you finding worthy, and a fit for the Browns? I'm really not locked in on a QB. I've just not had anyone else really blow me away.

Why do you have to diss every QB prospect to get your point across? We already get it. You're convinced QB isn't the way to go. You can stop w/ the charade.

Unlike some of the QB guys, as in, some swear Goff is the guy, others say Lynch is the guy, and others say Wentz is the man..........I am not sure. I will say that my analysis of NFL drafts over the years has been pretty darn accurate.

The Browns have a few options:

1. Take the QB if they feel one of those guys really is the guy. I simply don't like any of the top prospects that much. It's not that I don't like QBs or that I think that Browns don't need a QB. I just don't like the top guys all that much. I have argued for QBs before. People still make fun of me because I liked Bridgewater so much.

2. Take Bosa at 2 and get the impact pass rusher and run stopper that the team needs.

3. Trade down a bit and get a guy like Hargreaves and a WR w/the extra pick. Or a guy like Spence and a WR. Or, an extra first round pick to help you get a qb in next year's draft.

I think the Browns have options. I don't have all the answers. I do know this:

--The Browns lack impact players.

--The Browns have multiple needs.

--The Browns would have to commit to a QB for probably a minimum of 3 years if they choose one w/the second overall pick, which would thus prevent them from drafting a qb in the next couple of years.

--The Browns are desperately in need of a guy or two guys that can turn the game around. Guys that cause teams to game-plan against. Guys who are a threat to get a big play at any moment. A qb can be that guy, but so can a pass rusher, a WR, or a RB. I am not in favor of drafting a RB, but I had to add that position in there to ensure that the idea has integrity.

Look, I am not saying I am right about this year's group of QBs, but I do question the outrage and mocking by certain posters over my ideas given the history of how past evaluations of players has transpired.

Can you refresh our collective memory and define "accurate"? I remember you being high on Bridgewater and Manziel, but usually you're not really deep into evaluating prospects and do not have many strong opinions you stick your neck out....unlike a handful of others on here. And I'm strictly talking pre-NFL assessment. Watching a rookie in a NFL game and then say he sucks is hindsight.

As for accurate, here are some of my immediate post draft comments on 2015 Browns draft picks and the draft in general:

Erving:
He's strictly a C/RT for me with the best shot at C, but, as I said, a complete project there. At RT he will NOT upgrade on Schwartz, not even long term imho, much less for next season. He has already shown the same problems (vs speed, poor hand usage). Right now, he's a 6th OL...Could have found a player like that in FA, no need to invest a 1st on that profile.

His "versatility" is both his biggest strength and weakness, if that does make sense

Rounds 1+2 and Farmer:

Shelton is a carbon copy of Hughes. There I said it. Gives effort, will get better and be a decent player, but NOT a difference maker.

Oh and Erving, a project OL that doesn't look totally lost at all spots but hasn't mastered any yet. Has no clue of schemes in front of him playing C, complete project there. You can see numerous blitzers up the gut come in untouched on tape. Lack of experience is showing. Of course this experience will come at the Browns expense yet again and in bunches of losses, be prepared for a gigantic downgrade from Mack. And what part of you don't draft C in round one didn't you get Ray? It already got two of your predecessors fired, lol

You'll be next, rest assured, after that scared 1st round

As for day 2. RB will probably be the best value at 43, but Ray probably overrated the two minions he brought in last draft as most on here do

BPA is Ronald Darby, but that would be admitting mistake with Gilbert, so it won't happen.

Who was that guy who loved Blaine Gabbert? Who was that guy who dissed Banner for not drafting EJ Manuel? Who was that guy who had pictures of Brandon Weeden on his bedroom wall?

And you wanna talk quarterbacks?

Gabbert and Weeden were Django's budz, for sure. But I think Manuel was Mourg's guy. I will say, Django has been right on a lot of non-QBs.

*edit* I looked it up. Django was saying he liked Manuel as a round 2 or 3, so yeah... that's a valid one, too.

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