DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavs/NBA

Spot on and sadly, we're a little deep into the season to be playing the "who are we?" game.

Or who is leading you.... right now it seems as if they are all going to turn different corners...

We have the talent, but we don't have a chance because I don't think we have a team. We have a collection of guys.

I think as Cleveland sports fans we want to believe our situation is something that is changeable. Sometimes there's just somebody or something that's better than you and there's not much you can do about it. Golden State is like watching MJ and the Bulls again. Don't you believe Jazz and Sonic fans probably had the same conversations we're having right now?


I said it adamantly before the deadline that this team isn't talented enough and I still believe it. I'm hoping we're aggressive in trades this Summer. Until them I'm just gonna enjoy watching what little prime Lebron has left.

yeah i agree with you on the talent for sure.. This team isn't really that talented especially the bench, and we don't have any consistent shooters other than most of the time JR. You watch GS and everyone on that team can shoot and their offense gives them many open looks. We'll make another playoff run and i think there'll big huge offseason changes and the big 3 will be broken up and a new coach. I just don't get the vibe as last year after the ASB and we were just mowing teams down. Something seriously broke and I don't think the staff knows how to fix. As far as the lebron prime, i think this and maybe next year will be it, so hopefully they get it figured out by then. I'm not sure why we are'nt looking at kevin martin or marcus thorton, both alot better options than shumphurt.

Not sure if we can link blogs or not, but this had a great breakdown of Kyrie in the pick and roll: http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=40254

The jist of it is: Kyrie has some of the best talent in the league, but he's horrible at executing the pick and roll the way it's meant to work. He likes to take the roll man out of the equation and turn the play more into a quick isolation. I think that's why you see Delly quite a bit. While he has a 10th of the dribbling prowess and athletic skill of Kyrie, he actually runs the P&R the way you're supposed to do it.

it goes to kyrie being a selfish player.. he's just not a team guy and you can't have that from the PG spot. Thats why i wish mo wasn't hurt, i think he'd be the best option we have to play with the starters and be productive from that spot. Its not like defensively we're solid there anyways..lol

What is the Cavs' record w/and w/out Kyrie? Anyone know?

not sure, but his win share percentage is higher than lebron's

Offensive Win Shares
1. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 12.9
2. James Harden ▪ HOU 12.2
3. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 11.5
4. Anthony Davis ▪ NOP 9.9
5. Kyrie Irving ▪ CLE 8.4
6. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 8.2
7. Russell Westbrook ▪ OKC 7.5
8. LeBron James ▪ CLE 7.4
9. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 7.4
10. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 7.3
11. Tyson Chandler ▪ DAL 7.2
12. Blake Griffin ▪ LAC 6.6
13. Pau Gasol ▪ CHI 6.0
14. Ty Lawson ▪ DEN 6.0
15. Jonas Valanciunas ▪ TOR 5.8
16. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 5.8
17. J.J. Redick ▪ LAC 5.8
18. Kevin Love ▪ CLE 5.8
19. Klay Thompson ▪ GSW 5.7
20. Marc Gasol ▪ MEM 5.5


which goes to show stats are worthless..lol

A week or 2 ago someone suggested that Kyrie with the 2nd sqquad would be a good idea. I like the concept but believe Kyrie would really pout about it.

BUt I like the general concept of trying to keep one of the Big 3 on the floor with the 2nd squad to provide that dynamic scoring threat. I think this would need to be rotated so neither Kyrie nor Love feel like they have been demoted. It just seems that too often with get a lineup out there that really lacks a scoring punch.

Thinking about it, Love might be the better choice. Get Love out there with the 2nd group and run the offense through him like they did with the Timberwolves. I wonder if that would be a boost to Love. Touching the ball more, being the offensive focus, getting better stats. Would that make him happier than being the 3rd offensive option?

This would give Kyrie more time on the floor without Love allowing him to pick up that load possibly making him happier.

Combined would this improve the atmosphere in the looker room and result in better play on the floor?

Just a thought, I'm not a basketball guy and I don't know Kyrie or Kevin to know how they would react to these changes.

Watching Golden State and I'm convinced they're gonna have to cycle through guys they have at center and power forward. Green and Barnes get the piss beat out of them going for rebounds. They rely on athleticism and effort. Those aren't 2 attributes that last very long if they're all you rely on. I give Iggy 3 more years max he's already 32 with a lot of tear on his body.

I give Golden State 3 years of terror max unless they continue to draft insanely well. Small ball kills guys physically.

Crazy:

There is a team that is 54-5.

Almost as crazy:

There is a team that is only three games behind the 54-5 team in the standings.

Spurs playing defense as well as Golden State plays offense helps.

The Spurs are "secretly" playing big when everyone else is playing small.

Sam Presti is amazing at drafting, but is absolutely horrid when it comes to trading and the free agency aspect of GMing. Kind of the opposite of Mitch Kupchack.

I really hate watching Westbrook play.

Remember when Presti traded James Harden for Jeremy Lamb, Perry Jones, and Kevin Martin when he didn't have to? That was fun.

I think Kupchak is basically bad at everything at this point.

That's funny, I love watching him play. I don't think anyone in the league plays as hard as him on a nightly basis. He's also an athletic freak that cannot be matched currently in the NBA.

To each his own.

Yeah, I love watching Westbrook play. He may be the best athlete in any sport. His power, speed, quickness, flexibility, agility, etc are amazing.

Switching gears. Did anyone else see the graphic during the Spurs game that listed how excellent they have been for a long period of time?

It was crazy...something like they have been in the playoffs for 19 straight years and have won 50 or more games in 17 consecutive seasons.

I find that incredible!

Stats are not worthless. Stats have their limitations, especially when used the wrong way or to prove a predetermined conclusion. That list is just flat out wrong btw, probably the wrong year? All the advanced stats this year have Curry as the #1 offensive player in the league.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_leaders.html

Offensive Win Shares
1. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 10.7
2. Russell Westbrook ▪ OKC 8.4
3. Kevin Durant ▪ OKC 8.4
4. James Harden ▪ HOU 7.7
5. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 7.0
6. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 6.9
7. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 6.6
8. LeBron James ▪ CLE 6.4
9. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 6.1
10. DeMar DeRozan ▪ TOR 5.6
11. Danilo Gallinari ▪ DEN 5.6
12. Isaiah Thomas ▪ BOS 5.4
13. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 5.0
14. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 4.6
15. Gordon Hayward ▪ UTA 4.5
16. Reggie Jackson ▪ DET 4.5
17. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 4.3
18. J.J. Redick ▪ LAC 4.3
19. Kemba Walker ▪ CHO 4.3
20. Greg Monroe ▪ MIL

Win Shares
1. Stephen Curry ▪ GSW 13.6
2. Russell Westbrook ▪ OKC 11.4
3. Kawhi Leonard ▪ SAS 11.0
4. Kevin Durant ▪ OKC 10.9
5. Kyle Lowry ▪ TOR 9.9
6. Chris Paul ▪ LAC 9.6
7. LeBron James ▪ CLE 9.6
8. James Harden ▪ HOU 9.5
9. DeAndre Jordan ▪ LAC 8.6
10. Draymond Green ▪ GSW 8.1
11. Paul Millsap ▪ ATL 7.5
12. Isaiah Thomas ▪ BOS 7.5
13. Damian Lillard ▪ POR 7.5
14. DeMar DeRozan ▪ TOR 7.4
15. LaMarcus Aldridge ▪ SAS 7.3
16. Jimmy Butler ▪ CHI 7.1
17. Kemba Walker ▪ CHO 7.0
18. Al Horford ▪ ATL 6.8
19. Jae Crowder ▪ BOS 6.8
20. Hassan Whiteside ▪ MIA 6.8

Defensive win shares are 1. Drummond and 2. Leonard with 4.5 apiece.

Real plus-minus is another good metric. That one has Kyrie Irving at #27... among point guards. His defense is a boat anchor anchor there.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1

Duncan > Kobe

I completely agree, but I don't have the time or energy to fend off all the Kobe fanboys out there

Kobe was a great player but putting him in the discussion of GOAT, as many do, is ridiculous. There seems to be a revisionist history or maybe people just forget, but Shaq was easily the best player of those early 2000s Lakers teams. Or if you look at some of the advanced stats, again Kobe shows up as a really good player but not even close to the level of Wilt, Jordan, Lebron, etc.

Here's a cool stat, at age 39 (age 40 season), Tim Duncan leads the NBA in defensive real plus-minus. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

Kobe was a great on ball defender, at least when he tried (which seemed to be a lot less than people give him credit for, at least the times I watched over the years)

I'd probably have a much healthier respect for Kobe's game, if his fanboys weren't so obnoxious.

Yeah that probably applies to me as well.

The tweet, the trip, the analysis of it all was laughable. I listen to sports radio much of the week, and even I can't believe how much we dissect absolutely nothing in the dead zone of the February sports calendar.

Ughh

Man, the Cavaliers rest love, and still play a really great game tonight, and no one says a word about it. lol

On a side note, last Kyrie did something he hasn't done all year, be the high assist man from both teams in a single game, he had 8 last night.

Kind of like the Postgame Thoughts after a Browns win vs. after a loss..

Wiggins hasn't really improved the way I thought he would. He's been kind of disappointing.

I still think we would have been better off not making that Love trade and waiting a year to sign Love.

We could have used Wiggins defensively.

The thing is though, he's lost on help side defense.

He's still better than 90% of our roster.

I don't know about how great Wiggins is on defense.

I play daily fantasy basketball and use a great deal of analytics to choose my rosters. Minnesota's team defense is terrible and in the last 10 games, which is what I typically use to pick my daily roster, Minnesota shooting guards are ranked worst in the league in regards to the following criteria:

--pts given up
--assists
--rebounds
--turnovers
--steals

That's not an end-all, but there's merit to it.

I run those numbers every day on my spread sheets. There are certain teams and certain positions that consistently give up a lot of fantasy points, and since giving up a lot points, assists, and rebounds to opposing players is not really a good thing...I think you can draw some conclusions about who really is playing good D and who is not.

One interesting note.........it's kinda weird, but most of the top shot-blockers in the league also give up the most points and rebounds. You can see that connection, I bet.

Btw---------you're right about Love. He is terrible on D. Kyrie is one of the very worst in the league. Some people think Delly is a good defender, but the numbers say otherwise. On the other hand, TT is one of the very best in the entire NBA.

I know you like analytics, so I thought you might find this interesting.

But I thoughr going to Minnesota was better for Wiggins..

Getting to be THE MAN instead of JAG in Cleveland..

It's funny I have to convince my brother that certain NBA players arent actually good just because they eventually become a 99 overall player in 2k..

"You cant just put Oladipo, McLenmore, Otto Porter, Adrian Payne, and Embiid on a team and win a title in 3 years, shut up.."

Off to an ugly start...

Cavs are missing open looks.

Being able to run fast and dunk = Star

I agree w/you on this one.

I have to say this: I think I advocated acquiring Love more than anyone on here. I thought he was a perfect fit for Blatt's motion offense. Well, LBJ decided he didn't want to run that offense and that was that.

However, I still have to say I was wrong about Love. The more I watch him, the more I think he is a punk. Seems like a very entitled guy. Not tough at all.

I have no proof of this, but when I watch the Cavs interactions on the bench and after reading several comments about the parties involved.........I kinda get the feeling that Kyrie and Love have bonded and they aren't including LeBron.

I am not saying which side is right, but I think when there are little cliques w/in teams, it can only be wrong.