DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Terror in Brussels

yep.

and the idea of picking yourself up by the bootstraps doesn't work in a region like that.

far too often, we take the life we have over here for granted when discussing international issues.

no, not everybody has democracy. not everybody has running water, electricity, food.

and guess what? nobody here in america lives in an active war zone.

and it's why it's frustrating talking about international relations with *some* people on this board.

Columbus, does your son live in an area where they have to be worried about drone strikes hitting an area where him and his friends hang out?

does your son actively has to worry about a mall having a suicide bomber show up while he's trying to run game on a chick?

hell, how many times has your son seen military tanks run up and down the streets of downtown columbus?

and that isn't just to columbus. i'm not calling you out whatsoever. that's a question to anybody on here. because those questions are similar to the questions i ask myself about my daughters when i think about the middle east.

to everybody on DT, remember how some of you guys like to say "take responsibility for your own actions", "if you don't like how you're living, do something about it" or the classic "pick yourself up by the bootstraps"?

well guess what? those syrian refugees did that. they are trying to do something for their kids, or themselves and make a better life. they are running from a god damn war zone, something that VERY few of you have EVER experienced on this board.

and you're SLAMMING them for that. you'r talking trash about people who are doing what comes directly out of your mouths.

something, by the way, that we as americans are directly responsible for.

if we didn't invade iraq, there IS NO ISIS.

so, my question to the board is this, since nobody answered it.

ISIS wants us back into the middle east. they want another war. they want us to topple another dictator. they want us to fight in iraq again.

Do we give them war?

and if so, are you personally willing to go there yourself?

Swish says, that's awesome. since they have so many ways to find terrorist, maybe they can volunteer to stop receiving the $3 billion a year + weapons and equipment they get from us a year.

I say money over lives lost is the typical answer I would expect from a Lib.

that's funny, cause when discussing lives lost in the inner city, you say it's too expensive to take care of our own citizens.

but that's typical from a conservative, i suppose.

all about protecting everybody else but their own citizens.

I don't remember saying that. I quoted what you said.

you always complain about money when discussing policies that help the welfare of our citizens.

No I don't. Quote? Proof?

the ACA.

...and I think that for the most part, we've been doing exactly that. None of us knows how many would-be attempts have been thwarted by Homeland over the years, but common sense suggests that the number is much higher than any of us have been told.

We've had a vetting process in place for decades, and it's worked very well for us. Combine that with a tough anti-terror approach by HS, and we still live in relative safety (compared to other Western countries).

NO country will be able to stop 100% of these attacks 100% of the time. If we could, the Tsarneyev bros would not have been able to attack the Boston Marathon. But we seem to have a system in place that strikes a decent balance between protection and a total 'lock-down' police state.

Most of what we're doing is right, imo. AND... I'm certain that those 'behind the scenes" are in a constant state of analysis and systems improvement as we go forward. A Trump-like policy of "complete and total shutdown of all xxxxx's entering the US" sounds like a solution, but it's really not. Our last 3 attacks have come from within our own borders.

I only know it by its longer name...

Boondoggle.

So do we. And it works rather well for us, too.

You said a lot but I will try to give you my perspective.

-You first mentioned common sense as we have stopped attacks we never heard of but I would say that is more of a common guess.

-You spoke of our process of Vetting over the decades and how it has worked so well.
I would say that times have changed, we are at war and ISIS has the ability to print real passports today, from banks and post offices they overran in Iraq and Syria. Not copies, Real Passports and other documentation. The old Vetting process will not be able to tell the difference between John Q and John Q the terrorist.

-You speak of the Trump system so I would compare it to the Obama system of "containment" of ISIS. He has successfully "contained" ISIS to Europe, for now.

This may be true but, you do realize that many who traveled from Europe to join ISIS have European passports so they don't need false passports. Their European passports allow them to travel most of the world with relative ease. In fact, per capita I read Belgium has had more join than any other country and they know of at least 120+ that have returned to European soil.

Thus, the reason why European governments, along with the US, Canada, Australia, NZ etc. are all working much more behind the scenes than I think any of us will ever know.

Common sense, awareness, knowing your neighbor and not giving in to fear is vitally important. Fear is the weakness that terrorists prey and survive on. Trump's twitter messages about Belgium and Brussels today are not only insensitive but, he is just stirring more fear.

Yes, I know that, I was referring to immigrants.
Many Muslims who are citizens in Europe have traveled to the middle east, turned to ISIS, and now have returned home to fight their own countries.

Many, including two from the Paris group, traveled thru our supposed ally, Turkey, and then to Syria and Iraq.

many?

so can i get a link showing that a large portion of muslims have gone back to the middle east, became ISIS fighters, and committed terrorist acts compared to those who do not?

you're not making a strong case at all right now.

Sure, if you wish...
As of September of 2014...

The number of Europeans joining Islamist fighters in Syria and Iraq has risen to more than 3,000, the EU's anti-terrorism chief has told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29372494

Here is an article about them returning home to fight their own countries. It is called "Blow Back" and it has only just begun.

http://www.mei.edu/content/at/foreign-fighters-syria-and-threat-domestic-terrorism-europe

great articles.

except that doesn't answer what i asked.

try again.

Apparently you didn't count them. 15 or 20 so far, it is a work in progress you know. They ain't finished.

and how many muslims are in the EU.

apparently you can neither count, nor do ratio's properly, or answer my question.

I can't help you.

you need to help yourself first before worrying about me.

This isn't the exact thing you are asking for, but I happened to come across it yesterday and it fits in well enough:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/17/world/mapping-isis-attacks-around-the-world/

Cliffs: 75 ISIS or ISIS-inspired attacks in 20 countries that have killed 1,280 people since June 2014. This does not include terror attacks not linked to ISIS although the line is often blurred between what is ISIS-inspired and what is not.

edit: Those numbers are outside of Iraq and Syria.

So they caught the mastermind of the Paris attacks? Won't be long now before Obama invites him into the white house for tea and crumpets.

On a serious note, yet another situation where radical Muslims are wrecking unprecedented havoc. Events that's getting a little common and all too familiar.

Like him or not, I'm not sure how one could disagree with Trump that, at least, we need to slow down who we accept in this country until we can gather info and etc on just exactly "who" and "what" they are.

We keep letting the enemy get into our backfield, it just makes their terror campaigns all the more frequent and convenient.

thanks.

i'm glad you acknowledge that it didn't answer my question, but for discussion sake, lets go with that.

there are 1.5 billion muslims on the planet.

so whats the ratio of isis inspired attacks compared to the peaceful muslims?

also, with regards to the immigration, in general, what does that have to do with attacks from the actual citizens?

and that's what i'm asking for.

let me make this clear, i am in no way saying this isn't a problem, and shouldn't be addressed. i'm speaking from an immigration stand point.

here's a perfect correlation, and tell me if you agree with this idea.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/15/mass-shootings-tripled_n_5992702.html

harvard researchers have said that every 64 days, there is a mass shooting in the united states.

and those are our own citizens doing it.


so, by your and others logic, should we halt immigration to the US until we find out what's going on with our own people?

or better yet, should we halt white european immigration to the US until we figure out the problem with white citizens shooting up people?

my guess is that none of you on this board would agree to something so ridiculous as that, correct?

now you know how ridiculous the immigration stance is.

somehow, it's the new immigrants fault that citizens who have been born and raised there are causing the attacks.

so, they ID the new attackers, and sources say they were in contact with the paris attackers.

well...those are citizens of the EU that did that.

also, nobody has answered these 2 questions that i keep asking:

1. do we give ISIS the war that they want?
2. say Trump imposes his immigration ban on muslims. how do you keep people from simply lying that they aren't muslim?

People want to say we are not fighting all Muslims but after finding that Paris terrorist living in his neighborhood all along I will now say...

"It takes a Village to hide a Terrorist!"

j/c
What is the advantage of immigration again?

Not being called bigots seems to be the primary benefit to me.

Europe was built by Europeans. Countless Europeans have died over centuries for their countries. Other people have no claim or right to reap the rewards of these societies.

Same goes for America with Natives, Europeans, and Africans have any claim to reap the rewards of our civilized society. We built it and should reap the rewards of it.

Even for non-violent 1st world places, say Japanese people, I don't see a coherent argument why we as a nation must allow immigration of anyone. Outside of "It would be nice to do that" or "you're racist". Why should people not born here benefit from what has been built and the social systems developed? Why are immigrants an inherent value or a moral value in any way?

It seems more like something nice we are doing for other people rather than any inherent interest of the host countries to me.

From what I can tell the positives all come from people not being paid a living wage in the host country.

The cons far outweigh the pros to me. I'd rather natives of their countries be paid enough to live on and raise children rather than bringing in cheap labor who seem willing to have children regardless of poverty.

The poor people are getting riled up...bring in some people who don't know any better!

than that's simply a matter of opinion.

that i, of course, do not share.

seeing as that if it wasn't for my grandfather immigrating to this country, i wouldn't be alive/able to serve this country.

Like Kingcob said, "The cons far outweigh the pros"

So you're against people being paid a living wage?

Jk

We don't agree on most politics outside of some sane changes made to drug laws. People don't really change political beliefs often so yeah I don't enter into things expecting to change opinions.

Honestly my main beef with the country right now are the income of middle class / lower class, single motherhood and divorce rates skyrocketing, and birth rates in 1st world countries.

I'd like to get back to people being able to afford houses and kids without both parents working full time.

When my friends and family aren't capable or interested in having families I care far less about the plight of foreigners until that gets sorted out.

What a great post Swish......wouldn't it be wonderful if society thought the same way rather than enabling? :-) :-)

Back to the topic of the thread.....as I sat in an incredible festive environment last evening at my son's jazz cafe🎶, my heart was heavy with the burden of the recent attacks.

I looked at the smiling, happy-go-lucky, musically talented teen-agers running around and I wondered who among them may fall prey to these monsters? Who among them may seek to become part of the monster mentality? Who among them will work to eradicate the monster mentality in this world and who among them will feel the pain of losing a loved one to these monsters?

Call me an alarmist, but I am gravely concerned with the future for our youth if this behavior is allowed to continue unfettered.

As I've said before........coming, once again, to a theatre near you.

The New Colossus
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Visit Liberty Island and stand in the shadows of the Statue of Liberty and then you should find the answer to your question.

I wonder how many people say things like this on March 17th as they wear green and enjoy their pint of Guinness?

AP: ISIS has trained 400 fighters for European bloodshed


PARIS - The Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) has trained at least 400 fighters to target Europe in deadly waves of attacks, deploying interlocking terror cells like the ones that struck Brussels and Paris with orders to choose the time, place and method for maximum carnage, The Associated Press has learned.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ap-isis-has-trained-400-fighters-for-european-bloodshed/

You also said previously in this thread that they are waging jihad on everybody and are killing more muslims than non-muslims... that's why they bomb France or Belgium or the United States... I could try to come up with a PC way to say this but I won't.... most people don't care when they kill each other, it gets little to no press.

So to take that to your inner city analogy.. how much press does inner city gang on gang violence get? Not a lot... but catch a kid in the crossfire or an elderly person, that will get you some press.... take your violence into the suburbs and all of the sudden everybody pays attention....

What the jihadists are doing is the same thing.

which then leads to the question that everybody keeps dodging:

1. do we give ISIS the war they want?
2. whats to stop muslims from lying about their religion to enter the country?

anybody?

It's just scary. I'm not sure what else there's to say about it. Another snippet from that article:



They're already setup in our back yards, plotting, waiting and etc.

I would be happy if there was a european coalition led war. We could be a part of it but not the main driver. Im tired of us being the world police.