DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Coach Talk: Zone Blocking

Vers, I think the Browns biggest issue last year was the total lack of mobility in the OL, so the scenarios that you gave were just about impossible, but with new personnel are realities this year. Between Andruzzi being banged up, and Cosey's knees being shot, they could step up and move the way that they did in 2005. If you want to run a zone based scheme or play, the interior is so much more important. If those three guys aren't in unison, it's pointless since the back is mostly likely to cut back into one of those running lanes first (and that's where his natural first read should be). Yes, the tackles are important, but only if you have a back who's more likely to stretch his runs wide (like a young Clinton Portis in Denver).

If you guys want to check zone blocking playbooks, go to www.http://fastandfuriousfootball.com/....and just so everyone knows that is NOT my site, and I have ZERO affiliation to them. I just think it's relevant to this discussion, so admins/mods please just leave that link there.

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Here is a question for you. So I am watching the game on TV or at the stadium, what can I key on that will tell me that we are running a zone blocking scheme on a play vs man up?

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It might be hard to see on TV, but if you are at a game, look for two or more offensive linemen moving together, an initial double team followed by one of the guys slipping off to get the LBer on running plays. On passing plays, look for two or more guys coming out of their stance together, shoulder-to-shoulder and hip-to-hip. You can see it on the backside a little easier, because they tend to open up just a bit. Hmmm...let me think......the best way for you to notice it would be when our QB rolls out to the right, the backside [LT-LG-and perhaps the C depending on the width of the roll] will take two to three steps back together and then open up to 10:30 as I mentioned earlier. Does that make sense?

I gotta tell you guys. You don't know how many hours we used to spend teaching our offensive linemen to do that correctly and cohesively. Again, it can be done w/out pads. And if it is not done correctly, zone blocking will not be effective.

Riddler: If Bentley plays for us again and that is a big if.....I think he would do very well at RG.

BigC: Feel free to cut and paste some of those articles from that site. The refs won't mind as long as you also post the web address.

This is great stuff!

I am one of those guys who cannot resist watching the ball...as such, I never really see these things until someone tells me exactly what to look for.

Thanks to all who have contributed and I look forward to more.

Just a quick take on who I think are the top zone blockers in the NFL right now...

OLT Tarik Glenn
OLG Ben Hamilton
C Nick Hardwick
ORG Randy Thomas
ORT Ryan Diem

2nd team
OLT Marcus McNeill
OLG Kris Dielman
C Jeff Saturday
ORG Jake Scott
ORT Todd Weiner

Up and Comers

OLT Charles Spencer
OLG Darryn Colledge
C Drew Hodgdon
ORG Dylan Gandy
ORT (no one really yet)

Some young guys I think who are going to excel in the zone, or could end up on zone teams doing well

OT Ryan Harris - He's not powerful, but has great footwork.
OT Tony Ugoh - Similar to Harris...may have to move to OG, but I like his potential
C Ryan Kalil- He was the best technician in this year's draft. The Panthers have to do so much in terms of repairing their blocking, but Kalil had Denver blocker written all over him pre-draft.
OG Taitusi Latui - Knowing Grimm, they will run a pure man scheme, but Latui packs a lot of punch, and would be very powerful for a zone blocking team

Great Peen

What i like to do is watch the game enjoy it and then go back and rewatch it where u can see a lot of stuff that u miss. Doing this you often walk away with an entirely new perspective as to who was stinking it up.

No doubt.....I am not saying there is anything wrong with watching a player...I just don't think it is a fun way to watch a game and you miss more than you see.

But as you said...watching some tapes if you have them allows you to key in on some aspects you don't normally catch.

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What i like to do is watch the game enjoy it and then go back and rewatch it where u can see a lot of stuff that u miss. Doing this you often walk away with an entirely new perspective as to who was stinking it up.

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The only issue I have with that is that you aren't seeing everything.. just what a TV Network lets you see.. Game films are so much different and include so many other angles... That's why most times, if a coach said a player didn't screw up, I take thier word for it. They have access to information and video that we as fans never see...

Wow! Where to start - real nice posts.

I didn't go and read all the post and their informative explanations of things...pretty much read Vers' original and skimmed through the rest as mostly its redundant.

Of course my task at hand now is how to contribute to this thread without also being redundant...lol So I guess I will apologize straight up.

I'm a pretty simple guy and I love teaching sports - I don't care if you are a road scholar or part of the Menza club. Sports is best taught and understood in its simplest forms. So maybe that is what I'll key on - rather than be technical, although anyone who wishes to ask a technical question I'd be glad to answer.

Vers...btw I believe the term most used in the NFL for MAN BLOCKING would be "DRIVE" Blocking.

In its simplest form you have to break down block to two different areas.

Run Blocking and Pass Blocking.
I know it was briefly asked here about how would a Zone Blocking scheme affect our pass blocking. Scheme wise - Pass blocking will be separated and not effected by our decision to Drive block or Zone Block in the running game.

But in a way it does effect the Passing game and here is why and what.

I see the major difference of the two schemes which is predicated on the Run Game - all you pass pass pass guys - everything starts and feeds off the Run

The difference is in the Stretch that is being created. And that is the key focus on all offensive schemes to creat a stretch of the field ....open gaps into the defense and attack those gaps. Its all where you want those Gaps.

Drive blocking...creating that old 3 yds and a pile of dust time game is to create a Verticle stretch.

Zone Blocking I view as creating a Horizontal stretch...there is much LATERAL movement in your OL which if done with precision as a Unit will create stretches horizontally in the Gaps. It is here where the vision of the RB is utilized in reading those gaps and taking advantage of them.

So in regards to the passing game and pass blocking. The Gaps and over-commitments we make in the stretches can also effect the Pass blocking in the area of TIME NEEDED. If our goal is to create a verticle stretch via Drive blocking that means we draw in the Defense so that we can take advantage of going over the top - and deep as a goal. This would require our OL to hold their blocks for 5-7 drop patterns.

I see a lot of Zone blocking and Horizontal stretches utilized in WCO and their variations which in effect would more require a 3-5 step drop patterns and create a mind set of timing in a successful job.

So right there the type of Run Blocking Schemes that we are creating will and should effect the Pass Blocking - there is more which I hope to get to later.

But...before all get too excited over our conversion to Zone Blocking - and I think we most definately are heading in that direction. It takes timing and precision work as a unit which in itself will take TIME to perfect as a UNIT.

Which is why we have always utilized Drive blocking as our scheme - I think every year in our existance (99 on) we have started the season with a new OL.

Timing? Precision? Yes...execution of running plays primarily involve Two Levels or Tiers. Or if you wish DL and LBs...pretty much all that which would be found in "THE BOX". I added that cause in some cases you will have the Safety in there as well.

But the Precision in Zone Blocking is in the Feel - The Knowledge - The Familiarity with each other as they in UNISON move laterally one must break off the first tier and move onto the 2nd - while the other remains with the 1st. This is where we will see mistakes early on in our new offense and running game.

Also who will remain to "Cut Block" the backside pursuit as was mentioned by I believe Big C as a staple to the Zone blocking scheme. This of course is legal as long as it is relatively within the boundaries of the LOS and not of course in the backside of the legs and not found purposely (almost never called by the refs) going at the knees. But backside pursuit as you stretch the Point of Attack is key. Who remains behind - I would always plan on my Center to break off as he would be the backside of the Point of attack and also the Offside Tackle as the main Backside pursuit responsibilities...but I guess that is something that would be predicated on the development of the pursuit by the Defense in the NFL level.

Also I'm curious to see - after we are successful in achieving our Lateral stretch will our OL then start Sealing their blocks or look for Pancakes? If Sealing then the OL must read the same Gaps as the RB...in most cases it should be obvious but I would like the RB at some point to have two reads...the Gap inititially and their OLmen in their Seals.

Seal...pretty much when you get Pursuit at the point of attack committed moving laterally to have the OLmen visualize a created running lane and now to place their butts into it and direct or prevent any D memeber in close pursuit to enter the established running lane. And as the RB gets through the running lane to position the butt towards the endzone and knockoff/thwart anyone with angles looking to pursuit.

Back to the Pass game.

Also if we are creating success in stretching the defense with our Lateral blocking scheme. Especially with Frye as our QB (and not Anderson for obvious reasons) as a unique opportunity - I can see our OL breaking off for a Lateral run to the right
CF fake the hand off and then we form a rolling Pocket.

Of course a staple of the Browncos is to have the lateral stretch left and pull one guy right so that CF would bootleg after the fake as another option.

But I think with a Zone Blocking Scheme established for the run it opens up more effective rolling pockets for the passing game. As well as the bootleg.

Well enough for now as I might drift around in thought.

Again any questions and thoughts on what I said...don't know if I communicated it well enough. I'd be happy to go into further depths.

Thanks again for the thread Vers.

JMHPleasure to talk football with ya

Not to stray from the thread...and I don't think I am.

But I'd like anyone of those who are in the know - only cause honestly I didn't tape much last year and didn't notice.

I have read that Davidson our ex-OL coach is installing a Zone Blocking Scheme in Carolina. I remember one of the biggest friction between he and Mo was in calling the blocking schemes...Mo didn't like what he was calling and he took it over more or less as Davidson backed off with the attitude of Fine - Call what you want I'll do nothing.

I also saw this as setting up a Us against them attitude between the OL and Mo with the O. I was wondering if the conflict was that Mo wanted Drive Blocking cause he was trying to create a verticle stretch within his overall scheme of plays.

While Davidson wanted to invoke a Stretch Blocking scheme without vision of the next play...just in how he wanted to execute the play at hand???

Also when Davidson took over - did we convert most of our running play blocking schemes to Zone Blocking??? Was that the major problem with our Interior and why we didn't retain the services of Coleman and Andruzzi?

The key characteristic of Zone Blocking btw is Athleticism in the OLmen...not power - of course the more Powerful Athletic OLmen the better.

But most apparent is the investment of Steinbach and Thomas...these two are like SO PERFECT for Zone Blocking scheme...and really I don't think there is an NFL team who doesn't utilize it in some way and form but most top College teams utilize it so its probably best to convert to it as that is the talent base that we recruit from.

Its the right side that concerns me. Shaffer...he strikes me as neither Athletic nor mobile to perfect the Zone Blocking Scheme...I got a feeling he's not going to be a Brown too long - I hope he makes me eat my words.

I think Tucker can handle it...possibly Sowells is our Guy as he is athletic being an ex-Left Tackle and has good footwork and mobility.

Just thinking out loud here. I'm just worried about the Double teams and the Drive man or Post man making their reads and being on the same page in going to the 2nd tier.

JMHWorry

The Browns tried at times to run the stretch play, but teams were so much faster that the Browns got screwed. The stretch is a slower developing play (see the Colts who run the stretch almost exclusively), and if your linemen are slow out of their stance and into position, teams can penetrate the gaps. Andruzzi and Coleman both had mobility related issues because of health concerns. Fraley can be sluggish at times, but he makes up for it with good technique. The shame of it was that Droughns, despite his shortcomings, is still one of the better stretch play runners in the NFL.

Good stuff bro ... and we may not even argue much as U know WAY WAY more than my ignorant ass when it comes to this stuff ... *L* ...

I'd like U to boil it down for me .. I've read alot and believe the following to be true about zone vs drive blocking ..

PLEASE CORRECT ANYTHING THAT IS WRONG ... i wanna learn and this is how to do it .. so PLEASE CORRECT WHEN WRONG ...

GRACIAS ..

1. In zone brains/atheleticism/foot work is much more important than in drive blocking ..

2. working in unison as a "team" is much more important in zone blocking ..

3. Zone blocking is best suited for a RB with GREAT VISION to see the cutback lanes and get through them quick enough .. (and just so i understand .. the cutback lanes are created by the fact the backside OL are sealing off a cutback lane in unision by "sealing" off the D from getting through?? is that correct???) ....

4. In drive blocking the RB is running to where a hole is suppose to be lets say between the RT and RG .. in zone blocking hes just more or less starting out right and then picking the spot where the hole is created in the "zone"??

I'm not sure I understand how it works ... do u designate a "hole" like u do with drive blocking and u just rely on alot more improvision by the RB or do u more or less send him in a direction???

and with Thomas/Stieny and Fraley (who is also WELL SUITED to your defintion of a zone guy i believe .. yes??) this more than likely means we'll go after a RB that has good cutback ability???

OK .. thats what i believe to be true so far .... dont wanna give u to much to answer or read ... so i will end what i believe i have learned so far alone ... and i have 9 MILLION QUESTIONS ... man i wish we were talking .. this would be so much easier ... so instead of asking U some questions .. let me just try this approach ...

I would like to know the responibilities in a zone blocking scheme for a play that starts off to the right side between the RG and RT ... tell me what every OLman's and the TE's and WR's jobs are vs a 4-3 and a 3-4 ... if thats to much .. just start with the 43 and we'll do the 3-4 later .. i have no clue how much is involved in that so I'll leave it up to U to decide ...

another words who blocks the RDE and what are they trying to do ... who blocks the RDT and what they are trying to do ... the LDT, MLber, OLBer's .. etc, etc ..

just keep it to base D's with no stunts or nutting creative .. lets KEEP IT SIMPLE and get the ABSOLUTE BASICS down ...

Are your questions directed to Vers primarily and wish him to answer or open to be answered by anyone???

Also did you get to your PM on the info I gave you (not relevant to this thread)...

I WANT and actually DEMAND Vers to answer ... but if u want to also I'd LOVE IT .. the more perspectives the better as far as I'm concerned ..

and Vers .. I want your FULL BLOWN ANSWER .... just don't "add on" to anyone elses answers ...

Ya .. i got the PM .. no time to check it out yet .. but thanks .. hope u had a good time yesterday ... hopefully U wanted to beat traffick and left in the 7th .. *L* ..

A good FB is a key to the zone block run game. I'm not trying to step on Vers toes here, but I love talking blocking...

On a run play, the FB's key. He doesn't need to be a banger (like a Lorenzo Neal), but he needs to be quick enough to seal off the MLB, and fast. So if the play is where everyone steps up, and to the right, the FB has to get up the 2nd level fast, sealing off the MLB (or whichever LB is there), and then that allows the linemen to control the four down lineman.

"1. In zone brains/atheleticism/foot work is much more important than in drive blocking ."

Brains, athleticism and footwork is necessary and important in both
Drive blocking and Zone Blocking. If you are looking for physical attributes to concentrate on. Speed n Mobility is the key physical attribute to concentrate on for Zone Blocking and Power would be the physical attribute in Drive Blocking schemes.

But having a deficiency in either physical attributes is not good cause honestly in this NFL you want flexibility...you want to be able to do both. In Goal line you want to have the ability for your OL to Drive Block...getting to the Red Zone you would want the ability for your OL to Zone Block.

"2. working in unison as a "team" is much more important in zone blocking ."

Working in Unison is important for all blocking schemes...in drive blocking though its much more one dimensional and there are no Reads that have to be achieved by both...so in Zone Blocking the Unison is more difficult or at least takes more time to achieve.

"3. Zone blocking is best suited for a RB with GREAT VISION to see the cutback lanes and get through them quick enough .. (and just so i understand .. the cutback lanes are created by the fact the backside OL are sealing off a cutback lane in unision by "sealing" off the D from getting through?? is that correct???) ."

Two part question here.
RB - actually I think the lateral gaps made are more visible and obvious in a Zone blocking scheme that a RB doesn't have to have that great intangible to separate them...and why I think almost any RB is successful in the Denver O...then struggle when they simply don't have the skills to make it everywhere.

In drive blocking scheme there are assigned holes and you can have the vision and hit them hard and fast but you have to have the vision to see it clogged and so that you slide to the hole which isn't always exact.

I think in Zone Blocking Patience is the virtue most necessary...the running lanes are obvious - patience is needed to let them develop.

Probably Stretch plays which is a version of Zone Blocking schemes requires the most vision by the RB.

Cutting lane. Basically you got two double teams in a Zone Block scheme - One at the point of attack and one at the cutback. In both cases the initial double teams are to broken off and one of the OLman is to continue onto the 2nd tier. This must be decided upon by a correct read by both OLmen involved in the double team...and it all depends what pursuit is taken - via gap by the defending LB.

Inside OLman is Drive blocker...Outside OLman is Post blocker. And LB will determine which blocker will go to the 2nd tier...Drive or Post (Inside or Outside)

But these two distinct Double Teams will create a large Gap that the RB will end up attacking and letting his natural abilities take over.

"4. In drive blocking the RB is running to where a hole is suppose to be lets say between the RT and RG .. in zone blocking hes just more or less starting out right and then picking the spot where the hole is created in the "zone"??"

Actually in both cases the RB does have options especially in the higher levels...in HS or lower its pretty exact and you really don't want your RB making adjustments. But in the NFL even with a Drive blocking scheme you would have options left upto the RB cause you don't want the RB to run into a hole completely clogged with the only option to put his head down on the backs of the OLman and churn the legs...maybe in a Goal Line or 3rd and short.

But in most cases they have options to cut back or if the hole is clogged to slide in what technically might be the 4 hole instead of the 2.

Anyways...hopefully this answers some of your questions...if not by me I'm sure collectively we will get it straight.

The other questions...I don't know if I or others are prepared to make a book...lol but its not Rocket Science or anything...if you understand the concept you can use your imagination. Hope I got the concept down for you to make that happen

JMHO

Football 101: Zone blocking
By Bob Davie
Special to ESPN.com

The key to good offensive football is having a balanced attack with equal amounts of running and passing. With the emphasis on the passing game and the evolution of 8-man fronts and zone blitzing defenses, it has become more and more difficult to be able to effectively run the football. Over the past few weeks, we have had a lot of questions regarding zone blocking and exactly what that means. In this week's class we will try to explain zone blocking by the offense and why it has become a common scheme used to run the football.

What is zone blocking?

Zone blocking in the running game is when two or three offensive linemen work in tandem as opposed to each offensive lineman having a specific, predetermined man to block. Zone blocking involves the center, guard, tackle and tight end working in combination to block an area with an emphasis on double-teaming the defensive linemen who are aligned on the line of scrimmage.

The concept is for two adjacent linemen to come off in unison and attack a defensive line to the play side or to the side the ball carrier is going. The advantage, as opposed to man blocking, is that you create a double-team with two players blocking one defensive lineman. This allows the offensive linemen to be aggressive because he knows he has help if his defensive lineman was to pinch inside. It also provides movement at the point of attack, which can open creases for the running back.

Zone blocking initially starts out as a double team at the point of attack on the down defensive linemen, but the beauty of it is that one of the offensive linemen will leave to attack the linebacker while one stays to take over the defensive lineman. The key is for the two offensive linemen working in unison to double-team the defensive lineman to decide who and when one of them will leave to block the linebacker. In the diagram below, we show the offensive line starting the initial double team on the defensive lineman.



It appears that they have doubled the defensive end and defensive tackle and allowed the linebackers to go free, but both offensive linemen on the double team have all four of their eyes on the linebacker while the double team is taking place. One of the linemen will come off the double and block the linebacker.



There are several keys to this technique:
1. The linemen stay hip to hip.
2. The linemen keep their shoulders square.
3. Most importantly, all four of their eyes are on the linebacker.
4. Knowing when and who takes over the defensive lineman and who leaves to block the linebacker.

In the next diagrams, we show the technique of going from the double team to taking over the linebacker. If the end pinches inside, the guard will take over and the tackle will leave for the linebacker. (See below)



If the end stays outside, the tackle will take over and the guard will leave for the linebacker. (See below)



Difference between man blocking and zone blocking

Zone blocking first started to take place back when teams ran an old slant and angle defense. They would line head-up on an offensive lineman then slant the defense one way or another. It is easy to show this problem in man blocking and the best way to illustrate it is to show the defensive end pinching inside. If you are in man blocking and the tackle is assigned to the defensive end, he not only misses the defensive end pinching, but the DE knocks off the guard and keeps him from going to the linebacker.



There are different kinds of zone plays and you will often here the term the outside zone. In the figure below, we show the landmark of the back in the outside zone. It is obvious that at the angle the back takes the ball there is very little opportunity for the back to cut back behind the center. This affects all of the linemen's techniques because it is predetermined where the ball is going.



The inside zone is another term you hear. On the inside zone, the back's angle is more to the inside leg of the offensive tackle. Because the back is headed in a more straight-ahead angle, there is now the ability for the back to cut back behind the center. It is important that the back gets into the heels of the offensive linemen before he makes the cut. The offensive line can't allow penetration.



Pass blocking
Zone or Man
Zone-locking or man-locking principles may also be applied to pass blocking. Offensive linemen, when facing twisting defensive linemen, can also either lock on man-to-man or pass it off in a zone concept. When passing it off, or zone blocking, the key is to stop the penetration of the defensive end. In the figure below, the offensive tackle must stop the penetrating defensive end before passing him off to the guard. The offensive tackle then takes the defensive tackle looping around.



Conclusion
Zone blocking was created to handle moving defensive linemen. It is a simple concept, but it takes a lot of practice because it involves offensive linemen working in unison and decisions have to be made while the play is taking place. In zone blocking, you don't have a lot of different assignments, but you have a lot of techniques. It takes many repetitions to get the feel of working together as a unit. The diversity of zone blocking comes by the back running different angles and by the offense using different formations to confuse the defense.

Q & A with Bob Davie
First of all, thanks for all of the terrific responses and knowledgeable questions this week. Please keep sending in the questions and we'll tackle as many issues as we can this season. Here are a few of your questions regarding Cover 2:

Coach,

Which college teams this year are devising the best attack schemes to defeat the Cover 2 zone coverage and could you give some examples from some of the "September" games? Thanks!
Brian Burnett
Colorado Springs, Colo.

Bob Davie: I don't have a specific example from this year, but I think there are a couple of concepts. The first depends on having a great tight end, like Miami last year. In this case, you try to get the tight end up the seam on the linebacker. Most teams attack Cover 2 the same way. Something I didn't mention is that when a defense deploys four defenders in Cover 2, that leaves a 7-man front. Teams will try to run the ball against it. There is not a specific team that comes to mind, but Miami with Jeremy Shockey comes to mind.

Coach,

Can a team that uses a base 3-4 defense use Cover 2? If so, how does it differ?
Reed David
Pittsburgh, Pa.

Bob Davie: Definitely. They have a few options too. First, defenses can use one of the outside or inside linebackers as the fourth rusher. You would still play a 5-under, 2-deep concept with a 4-man rush, but one of your linebackers becomes the fourth rusher. Another way a defense uses Cover 2 from a 3-4 base is to just rush three defenders and drop all four linebackers, with the two corners and play 6-under, 2-deep and have an extra underneath dropper as a "rat," who looks for crossing routes or quarterback scramble.

Thanks for explaining Cover 2, Coach Davie. I have one follow-up question: what happens with slot receivers? Seems like that's an immediate way to beat a zone, to put 2 or even 3 receivers on one side of the field. Does the D then have to audible to man-to-man? Many thanks--I'm learning a lot!

Derek Oja
Iowa City, Iowa

Bob Davie: No, you can play Cover 2 against any formation. The difficult thing with the slot is many times you get a linebacker that has to "walk out" particularly in a one-back set on the slot. That's how the evolution of nickel defenses took place. Teams will substitute a fifth DB for a linebacker to be able to play either zone or man-to-man coverage on the slot.

I appreciated you explanations of and insights into Cover 2. You mentioned that it is often important for a LB to read the WR's pattern, specifically if the WR had an outside release. You wrote that an outside release indicates that WR might be going deep and that the LB should play any inside receivers (RB, TE), man-to-man in case the offense is trying to stretch the safeties w/ 4 deep receivers. If a LB must read run first, how can he also read the WR releasing outside? It seems like too much to read and react to at the same time. GO DAWGS!
Graydon Simkins
Tacoma, Wash.

Bob Davie: Great question! The outside linebacker always, always plays run first. The tight end will tell him if it's run or pass. If the TE blocks, the LB is obviously playing run. The only time he reads outside to the WR is if the TE releases pass. The LB should not kick into a pass read until the TE declares that it is a pass.

Send in your Football 101 questions. Bob Davie will answer a few of them next week.

Editor's note: As architect of top defenses at Texas A&M and Notre Dame, Bob Davie is recognized as a top X's and O's coach. This season, Coach Davie analyzes offensive and defensive schemes as part of his season-long course on football for ESPN.com. Each week, he breaks out the chalkboard and break down the X's and O's in college football.






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Peen can you put up a link so we can follow the diagrams they refer to?
Thanks pretty good read.

First of all..........I don't want anyone to feel they are stepping on my toes. I have a working knowledge of zone blocking. I'm certainly no expert. I appreciate BigC, tab, Mourg, Peen, and others for chiming in on what they know about the topic. The purpose of this thread is to educate and to talk football instead of nonsense. This has turned into a great thread, much better than I envisioned. I'd like to thank everyone who has contributed.

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Good stuff bro ... and we may not even argue much as U know WAY WAY more than my ignorant ass when it comes to this stuff ... *L*

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Well, your assumptions certainly prove you are not ignorant about the topic. tab answered these already, but I see you want me to chime in. I'll be concise.

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1. In zone brains/atheleticism/foot work is much more important than in drive blocking ..

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Without a doubt it is way more important. We were fortunate enough to have smart kids at our school and we could use zone blocking. Let's just say that some of the inner city schools had to rely on drive blocking. I prefer the term base blocking or man blocking, but I'll use drive since others are using it and it will help avoid confusion. Like tab said, you want those qualities no matter what scheme you run, but you MUST have those attributes to make zone blocking work.

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2. working in unison as a "team" is much more important in zone blocking ..

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Yes, w/out a doubt. In fact, that is the strength of zone blocking.

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3. Zone blocking is best suited for a RB with GREAT VISION to see the cutback lanes and get through them quick enough .. (and just so i understand .. the cutback lanes are created by the fact the backside OL are sealing off a cutback lane in unision by "sealing" off the D from getting through?? is that correct???) ....

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I would say so. Great vision is pretty much a requisite for all good backs and in any system, but certainly that vision will lead to longer runs in a zone blocking scheme.

The second part of your question is sometimes true. But, the backside doesn't seal off on every play. They seal off more on running plays that go wide, boots, roll outs, and in some other passing plays. Many times, the backside guys go to the second level. And bro, this is where the long runs that Mourg talked about earlier come in. I'm telling you......we have Joe who is great at the second level. Steiney is very good also, and believe it or not.......Hank is better at the second level than he is at the point of attack. I'm really excited about this.

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4. In drive blocking the RB is running to where a hole is suppose to be lets say between the RT and RG .. in zone blocking hes just more or less starting out right and then picking the spot where the hole is created in the "zone"??

I'm not sure I understand how it works ... do u designate a "hole" like u do with drive blocking and u just rely on alot more improvision by the RB or do u more or less send him in a direction???

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No, you don't just send him in a direction. The play call still has a hole. Let me put something else in right here....it will take a minute, but will lessen confusion in the long run.

Running plays end w/two numbers....the numbers and words preceding them are for formations and the like, but they end w/two numbers. The very last number is the hole. The number preceding it has to do w/the back or where the back lines up. You will hear plays ending like these: ahhh crap...let me just add a couple of other things. I'll keep it real simple though. Rip slot 28, Liz 44 counter, or Rip tight 36. Obviously, the rip means the strong side is the right side and Liz means the strong side is to the left. There are a ton of these, but I'm trying to be concise. *L*

Now, the second number is the hole. 0 is right over center, 2 is between C and RG, 4 between RG and RT, 6 between RT and TE, and 8 outside of the TE. Use odd numbers in the same progression for the left side.

The particular play you called...between RG and RT would be the 4 hole. So, even in zone blocking.......Rip Tight 44 would be a play. Obviously, the RB has to make decisions based on how the LBer reacts to the play and which offensive lineman will come off their initial block to go after the LBer.

Now.....the last question. That's going to be tough to answer because there is not a set answer. I can tell you what the assignments are for a couple of different plays. You gotta understand, that teams will have several plays that go through that 6 hole and assignments change due to formations and which back gets the ball or which set they are running. You know.......you could be an an I formation, an offset I, a one-back, a pro set, a Wing T, etc.

Additionally, defenses don't just line up and play...LOL...at least a few of the guys are angling or slanting or looping, etc.

Tell you what.............look at those diagrams from Peen's article. I don't know if there are any good diagrams in there, but by reading it......it appears there should be. I actually went to a clinic in which Davie spoke at. See if that helps, and give me time to regroup and I'll try and give you a play.....and I'll try to pick a fairly simple play that will be easy to follow.

Really good questions though. If people are reading, they're learning.

j/c

I'll keep this simple.

1. Great thread. Many thanks.

2. This a question for the Defense Coordinators...knowing a team specializes in Zone Blocking, how do you attack the offense? Where are the weaknesses in the offense in running such a scheme?

3. How can Zone Blocking be effective versus the Goaline Defense? Putting it in simple terms, seems like the notion of building the offense line around "quick athletic" lineman could be a crutch in short yardage situations when the D brings in the oversized D-lineman. True or not?

Alright Diam........I went out and smoked a little of my cigar. I gotta smoke 'em outside again because I'm back w/my family.......got-damn pains in my ass. *L*

Here is a simple play. I'm going to run it through the 4 hole, between center and guard against a 4-3 that's in a Cover 2. Common play......common defense.

I wish I could diagram this for you. Does anyone know how to do that on this board. If so, take what I write and try and diagram it. For football plays, diagrams are easier to understand.

I'll start play side, which is to the right, if you remember the numbering system. This is also our strong side, which means our TE is lined up to the Right of the RT.

Their D: Sam is to TE side, Will is to our left. FS is to our left, SS to our right. Get it..strong safety. LOL

Okay:

C: He's going to area block. I know you know baseball, so let me give you a baseball example of how to step when you area block. You know how you teach your outfielders to take step back w/the foot that is on the side of the path of the ball, that little rounded half step? Well, this is similar.

So, after making sure there isn't a blitzer coming into the "0" hole, he drops his right foot and then heads to the left shoulder of the Mike. He wants to turn him away from the play.

RG: Area block move again and he goes to the outside shoulder of the T. He turns him inside, away from the hole.

RT: Gap block the DE. A gap block is where you point your lead foot at a 45 degree angle and then get your head across the body of the guy your blocking, raising your back arm to "steer" him. Some might call this an angle block.

TE: He drive blocks the same DE that the RT is blocking.

* Note: One of these two must come off the double team to take on the Sam. He wants to attack his inside shoulder and turn him to the outside. It will almost certainly be the RT, because the Sam should be running to the 4 hole, which is to his inside.

Backside:

LG: Area to the right, turn tackle away from the play side.

LT: Area to the right, leave DE unblocked and go after the Will, again attacking the inside shoulder, turning him away from the play.

WR: He is to the left side. He heads straight downfield, bypassing the CB and attacks the FS.

Flanker: Lined up to the right off the LOS. He hits the CB on the inside shoulder, comes off that block immediately and progresses to the SS.

QB: Reverse pivot, handoff to RB and boots away from the play.

FB: This can change, but in this case, he is going through the 0 hole and blocks the first man that crosses his face. Most times it is the Mike or a hard-charging SS who has sniffed out the run.

RB: Jab step left, open, then crossover, heading for the inside leg of the RT. His first key is the playside DT.

There............was that too complicated or unclear? Or was it too simple? LOL....I don't know what people can see when I write these.

Good questions. I'm getting tired of thinking *L* but I will try and answer them. Again, anyone please feel free to jump in.

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2. This a question for the Defense Coordinators...knowing a team specializes in Zone Blocking, how do you attack the offense? Where are the weaknesses in the offense in running such a scheme?

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I don't think there is a way to attack it. In fact, I believe it originated because teams were taking advantage of drive blocking teams w/their movement.

There is a weakness however, and I can't believe no one has asked me that yet. I've been gushing over zone blocking and I thought someone would have said why don't all teams run it.

The weakness is that it has to run perfectly. Technique is huge. Cohesiveness is huge. Timing is huge. Steps are huge. Body positioning amongst linemen is huge. So......the weakness is if guys are screwing up. LOL....I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. Scheme wise.......you can't beat it.

Joe is going to be great at it.

Steiny is going to be very good also.

Hank has very good technique. He works at it.

Tucker is very strong, but his technique is actually pretty damn good. He often grades out the highest on the OL.

Shaffer...........ahhh..........not so much.

McKinney: This is the guy I am hoping is technically sound and he could be a key to our line this year. If any of you guys have any info on McKinney, regarding technique, agility, intelligence, etc.......please share it. In other words, anyone have a scouting report?

Sowells: He was lost last year. However, I heard he really has shown some improvement during OTAs this year. I didn't hear one good thing last year and already I heard that he is going to be a good player at some point.


So Shark.........it isn't looking all that bad. Of course, we would struggle early. But dammit, I wanna see these guys get in their positions now. They must work on it. A lot!!!!!!!!!!!!

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How can Zone Blocking be effective versus the Goaline Defense? Putting it in simple terms, seems like the notion of building the offense line around "quick athletic" lineman could be a crutch in short yardage situations when the D brings in the oversized D-lineman. True or not?

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As tab and I mentioned earlier, most teams use a combination of zone and drive blocking. Additionally, size doesn't always mean that much.

Let me ask you this. Say you are going against a wrestler who is 50 lbs lighter than you. You are facing off. Who would take whom down, and why? He would kick your ass because he would get outta his stance first and he would hit you lower than him, right?

It does kinda bother me that people underestimate quickness, technique, and leverage when it comes to blocking. I'm not saying you are like that, but how many times have you heard..........we gotta get some hogs.?

If that still doesn't convince you.........look up teams like Indy, Denver, Seattle, and others who use zone blocking and see how they do in the red zone. I really have no idea, but I bet they are more effective in short yardage situations. Remember when I talked about creating movement at the LOS? Now, think about how many times we got absolutely no movement w/our drive blocking style.

And seriously, if you do look that up, post it so we can look at it.

I just wanted to say that I've really learned a lot reading through these posts.

Thanks to all.

I would also really love it if we could have a forum dedicated to these 'coaching' style threads. That would be great whenever you wanted to go back and look something up.

Hello...first post from me. I am not football savvy, but got rid of the youthful chip on the shoulder years ago...So, I am an old fart willing to learn.

I see where the guard and tackle will double team the defensive end. Both are watching the playside linebacker, and one will peel off to block this LB. So, here is my question. What is the middle linebacker going to be doing, and who takes him on?

Another poster stated the fullback would be responsible for the middle LB, but there isn't necessarliy a FB on every play, correct?

This is a great thread. I have enjoyed reading what Vers & others have had to say over the years. Man, as I learn a little I realize there is so much I don't know. Really want to be able to understand what is happening on the field as the plays unfold...So, thanks a million for helping out. This stuff is fascinating.

thanks peen for posting that article....diagrams help alot....

vers....eo...or anyone else in the know about this


i looking at this diagram it seems like you virtually eliminate the d's ability of shooting the gaps....

by this i mean that your olinemen isn't able to get square into the dlinemen and stalemate him or drive him back...you end up with an arm into him...resulting in penetration or a hold....

looking at the weakside of the above play, if the tackle trys to shoot the gap between the guard and tackle...then the guard just hits him at an angle and redirects him right into the left tackles arms...now the left tackle just steers him right out of the play, while the guard goes to the second level....

but what if the tackle shoots the gap between the center and guard...guess it would be the 1 gap...does the tackle then try to get to the will linebacker? or does the guard just let the tackle go and then go to the will? (in other words delay him long enough to be out of the play)

same thing on the strong side...the de shoots outside the tackle rides him wide, and the guard goes to the sam...if the de shoots the inside gap, the guard nullifies his advantage, passes him off to the tackle, and goes for the sam....

this is all based on a running play in between the guard tackle....i'm assuming if it was more to the outside then maybe the tackle would be coming off and going to the backer....

do i got it right?

First off...........glad to see you are posting. Hope to see more of you.

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I see where the guard and tackle will double team the defensive end. Both are watching the playside linebacker, and one will peel off to block this LB. So, here is my question. What is the middle linebacker going to be doing, and who takes him on?

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On the particular play I referred to, both the FB and the Center were headed towards the MLB.

I was a little hesitant to answer Diam's question because I don't want people to think that those blocking assignments are used for each play that go through the 4 hole. That's a typical way to block it, but there are other ways.

I also need to point something else out here. We have to remember that the offensive linemen are blocking an area, so while they may have a certain guy they are shooting for, they have to block the first guy who crosses their face. Obviously, this is very important when teams are running stunts and blitzes.

I may be getting a bit ahead here......but a big part of good zone blocking is a back who understands the hole can be in one of several places. You need a guy who has good vision, can make 1 cut and run.

The goal or design of the play might be to hit the 3 hole....but it may work out that the 1 or 5 hole is where the play will open up, depending on which blocker ends up as the "chipper" and peels off to look for the backer.

I like how you try and analyze the blocking schemes. Good questions too.

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by this i mean that your olinemen isn't able to get square into the dlinemen and stalemate him or drive him back...you end up with an arm into him...resulting in penetration or a hold....

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No, I don't feel that is true at all. I think gap blocking, which I briefly described earlier is much more effective than drive blocking. The key is to get your head across the defender, putting your face mask right into his opposite armpit, your lead arm is up in his pads and your back arm is like a chicken wing that is high around the defenders shoulder pads. You can really turn a guy and drive him out of the play w/this technique.

You also have to remember that a lot of the defenders are being hit initially by a double team. One guy is straight up on him and another is hitting at an angle.

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looking at the weakside of the above play, if the tackle trys to shoot the gap between the guard and tackle...then the guard just hits him at an angle and redirects him right into the left tackles arms...now the left tackle just steers him right out of the play, while the guard goes to the second level....

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If the tackle shoots the gap to the weak side, the C simply area blocks and seals him off. The play is going the other way and there is no need for the T to even mess w/him. The T would still go after the LBer.

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but what if the tackle shoots the gap between the center and guard...guess it would be the 1 gap...does the tackle then try to get to the will linebacker? or does the guard just let the tackle go and then go to the will? (in other words delay him long enough to be out of the play)

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That would be called the A gap. It seems a little confusing, but defensively, they aren't numbered, they are lettered. *L*

A gaps= between C and G
B gaps= between G and T
C gaps= between T and TE

Both sides are lettered the same.

And my answer would be the same. Who cares if he shoots the gap on the side away from the play? I am actually hoping he will. It makes it easier to seal him off. Remember Big Money for us? Do you remember how he would either make a big play or easily be steered out of the play, sometimes 8 yds out of the play? That's because he chose the wrong gap on the weak side and teams sealed him off and just rode him outta there.

racer, that play looks to be going through the 2 hole, which is between the C and the RG. The weak side tackle would be doing us a favor by shooting the weak side A gap. What he should do is try to get his head across our LG and knock the center into the hole. That would clog the hole up and he will be waiting for our RB when he tries to cut back. I'll do a defensive post like this one later on.

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same thing on the strong side...the de shoots outside the tackle rides him wide, and the guard goes to the sam...if the de shoots the inside gap, the guard nullifies his advantage, passes him off to the tackle, and goes for the sam....

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That particular play has two major concerns. The strong side tackle and the Sam. If the C can not get his head across the strong side T, then we aren't going to have a hole there. Plain and simple. Secondly, if our RG can't come off his initial block and get in front of the Sam, then the Sam is going to blow up the play. And that is usually what happens on that type of play when it fails. The Sam reads the play before the snap, and shoots the A gap right away, getting there before the RG can get to him.

One other note: Notice where it says "eyes on LBer" in the diagram. This is what I was referring to earlier when I asked the question about what Marshal said and then when I tried explaining it to mac later. It is imperative that the guys who are part of the double teams keep their eyes on the LBer to their side. That guy has to be blocked, because if he isn't.........we aren't gaining any yards. And it is also important that both guys involved in the double team know each other, because if you both release, the d-lineman will be left all alone. Ever see where a defensive lineman is left all alone and rushes in to kill the RB? That's why.......LOL.

Now.........can you see why I say you can do a lot WITHOUT pads? That's all stuff that can be done w/bags, or other guys in your offensive line drills.

No, you aren't getting ahead. You do need a back w/good vision. The ability to cut quickly is important too. Remember, in zone blocking, we are trying to create movement at the LOS. And since we are blocking an area, we may have to block a different man than we originally thought [that is the beauty of it though], thus the RB is reading the same keys the offensive linemen are.

It is a good system for some but I don't know it it is any better than straight up blocking....I guess there are pluses and minuses to both.

Zone give you some momentary movement...allowing linemen to take their guy they way they want to go, which is good IMO.....it was probably designed to combat slanting and stunt D's......but it allows for more screw-ups...the linemen need to know who peels off and the backs have to be a bit heads up.....really...the back might be the key....if he is slow to read the hole, or cuts the wrong way....its over and the line looks like they didn't block anybody..

I may be barking up the wrong tree here, but I also somehow think zone gives the D-linemen just a fraction edge on pass plays.

Straight up kind of takes that out of the mix....but then it becomes more a game of match-ups....can your O-line block and move the defensive player???

The conclusion I draw is if your linemen are a bit out gunned, zone is a good way to make up for the match-up problems.

It's just like anything else in football. Some people like the 3-4, some like the 4-3, etc. My pluses and minuses for zone...

PLUS
The guards and center can be replaced easily. Granted, the Browns just threw a billion dollars at Steinbach, but look at Indy. They routinely rotate C and G's. Tupe Peko, Rick DeMulling, Jake Scott, Ryan Lilja, Steve McKinney, Jeff Saturday, etc. Granted Indy has to put a high premium on elite OT's because of how much they pass block, but even Denver has proved that the OT's can easily replaced.


MINUS
A disciplined defense who controls gaps gives the zone issues. If you have a team like New England who can maintain gaps, the cutback lanes just are not there. Some more penetrating one gap defenses, like the Bears, can blow up the running lanes, but if they are not disciplined, then they will overpursue upfield.

Geeez. You guys really took off on this. I'm struggling to find ways to contribute without restating what's already been said in very good terms. One thing that stuck out was the ability for D-coordinators to find a weakness in this blocking scheme. Like Vers said, it takes very skilled and techically savvy personnel on the o-line to successful execute the zone blocking scheme. Therefore, a D-coordinator is going to look at the personnel to find weaknesses. Are all 4 guys involved (center-guard-tackle-tight end) on the designated side of the play, able to work together in pefect harmony? Are they all full-time starters with zone-blocking experience? Can they all get off the ball, double-up their man, make quick decisions and get up field to that next level? If there is a weak link anywhere in that chain, you attack it at that point. If there's one guy who is bit banged up or a little slower off the ball, you attack him. And then when they make adjustments and shore up that particular area, you attack somewhere else. Obviously, the key to a great defense is one that keeps the offense off-guard and always guessing where you're coming from. The beauty of zone-blocking is that you don't have to guess so much. You got a spot and anyone who comes close to it, you take 'em out. But a defense that can change up, hide their blitzes, shoot multiple gaps, beat double-teams, or just blow people off the ball are going to be successful against any blocking scheme. The question isn't IF they'll be able to apply pressure, the only question is WHEN. I think, if we can get everyone on the same page and have them working cohesively by September, we'll buy Charlie or whoever a lot more time. But don't expect him to have all day. It's gonna take time to develop what we need. The first few games (albeit, the most important ones) may be rough.

You just described Mike Shannahan Football 101 just there is a lot of cut blocks!

Well, I disagree w/you. Zone blocking is more effective, by a long way, over man blocking. The negative is that guys have to know what they are doing and do it cohesively. Some teams don't use a lot of zone blocking because their guys aren't good enough. But, in the end.....zone blocking is far superior.

In this thread repition is good ... at least for me and more than likely alot of the posters like me that have zero backround in coaching and the technical aspects of the game .. so PLEASE REPEAT if u can ... basically dont not contribute because what u want to say has all ready been said .. at a minimum u will at least HELP ME if no one else ... but maybe u dotn wanna help me cause I'm an arrogant ass ... *L* ..

Thanks to all ... I personally am LEARNING a TON ... special thanks to BigC .. never seen u post before ... thanks for your insight ...

will be back later Vers to go over your post .. no time right now ..

tabber .. will adress specifics in your post later also .. thanks bro ..

U know I almost posted that I know that all the attributes u need for Zone blocking were also very important for man blocking ... but i said .. Naaaa .. Tabber and vers will KNOW I understand that .. then i start reading your post and *LOL* as i said .. well appearantly tabber thinnks i'm a real idiot ..

at the end of the day guys ... .. scheme needs to be molded to your TALENT ... but at the end of the day TALENT IS THE DRIVING FORCE ... the better your OLman are the BETTER WHATEVER SCHEME U use is gonna be ....

TALENT TALENT TALENT .....

I wish I could add something new in here, but I've got nothin'. It's all dead on.

It most definitely is mentally confusing and requires a back with good cutback ability. We ran a zone play in high school where the runningback had two options, the initial hole and the cutback lane. And we rarely ran it because it was so difficult to get on the same page.

I'll also argue that if you don't have one guy capable of zone blocking, it'll screw up the whole play, especially in the interior. Our center wasn't quick or powerful enough to run the play right and it screwed up our entire blocking scheme on that play because it was so important for him to wash down the DT and open up the cutback lane if the RB needed it.

I have to wonder, if Shaffer's as unathletic as you say he is, if it'll screw us up when we try to run zone. I'd like to think that being on the edge would help vs. being on the interior, but I'm not sure on that. (before I'm ridiculted for that: yes every position on the OL is important, but I'm arguing that the interior is more important on running plays, especially running plays up the middle. All a tackle really has to do is seal off the DE, not so much drive him off the ball in order for a running play up the middle to work, at least based on what I've observed/what our assignments were, and yes, I know high school and the NFL are different animals.)

Finally got back to read through the entire thing, and again, great thread! Awesome responses by all and a ton of really good info here, especially for guys like me who aren't up to speed on the X's & O's. The question that began nagging me as I started page 2 was, how do we prepare? How do we practice to face the Rats & Pit (for example) and all their blitz packages and movement type schemes? Do we simulate their styles and run those types of plays in practice, and does that mean our D needs to be implementing more complex defensive schemes, not only to be more competive anyway, but also to prepare our O-line for the realities they'll face on the field come game time? Again, great thread, great info. TIA