DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2016 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 13 Buccaneers 30 Post Game Thoughts

I think he's using it as extra padding to lessen the severity of his whiplash.

Seriously? Vegas win total is 4.5. How many of you really thought going into the season the Browns would be over? Get real. It's ANOTHER development season. I'll take the under. Give Hue a season and let's see what happens. Lots of good nap time on Sundays while the Browns are on TV. Enjoy!

I thought it very interesting Vegas has us at 4.5. There is NOBODY on this board or any other Browns fan in the world that, if they had money riding on it, would take the over.

Seriously.... how did they get that number as high as 4.5??

I'd bet if they went game by game we wouldn't be favored in ANY of them right now ... maybe not within 3 points

in order to win that bet we'd have to WIN 5 games ... that seems like a freaking gimme bet

Some of the Cincy fans that I work with believe Hue would get the Browns to 8-8. I said now way in hell with the talent on this team that would be possible.

Thoughts..

Run defense looked a lot better. Amazing how much it helps when you make tackles and don't give up big runs.

Pass defense was abysmal. Giant bubble in the middle of the field between the LBs and the Safeties where our defense was evidently not allowed to go because Bucs receivers were running alone there all night.

Zero pass rush... again. which I'm sure contributed to why receivers were running around seemingly uncovered.

Offense, Crow and Duke ran the ball fairly well and we had some big plays. Way too many negative plays (sacks and penalties) to sustain drives though. I don't mind RGIII, throws a nice deep ball.. but our offense seems to have more flow with McCown, he is much better at the intermediate throws that move the chains... RGIII seems to like to stand there longer and thinks every play should be a homerun...

Overall on special teams, I had zero problem with Lee not trying to track that guy down and make the tackle.. dude is one of the best punters in the league, no need for him to hurt himself on a meaningless play..

Browns' Defensive Snap Counts and Stats vs. Buccaneers

7


Looking at the defensive snap counts in the Browns' 30-13 loss to the Buccaneers.

By Chris Pokorny @DawgsByNature Aug 27, 2016, 1:51p


Below, we analyze the snap counts on defense for the Cleveland Browns' third preseason game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Defensive Line


Pos Player Plays % Stats
DL Emmanuel Ogbah 43 62% 3 tackles (3 combined). 1 pass defended.
DL Carl Nassib 37 54% 1 QH.
DL Xavier Cooper 35 51% 1 tackle (1 combined).
DL Danny Shelton 25 36% 2 tackles (2 combined). 1 FF.
DL Jamie Meder 24 35% 1 assist (1 combined). 1 QH.
DL Armonty Bryant 12 17% No stats registered.
DL John Hughes 12 17% 1 assist (1 combined).
DL Kenton Adeyemi 11 16% 1 tackle (1 combined).
DL Chigbo Anunoby 11 16% 2 assists (2 combined).
DL Jason Neill 7 10% No stats registered.

I'll have to review the tape some more, but it was disappointing to see Carl Nassib playing early, yet not be able to have an impact against a depleted Buccaneers like. Danny Sheltonplayed late into the game but was a non-factor early. On Jamie Meder's first play replacing him (that I saw), he blew his man right into the face of Jameis Winston. John Hughes didn't play much, but brought an energy level that should show up on tape and elevate him to the starting lineup. I have know idea what this club will do with Armonty Bryant. He's been a non-factor this entire training camp and preseason, and has a four-game suspension to start the year.

Outside Linebacker


Pos Player Plays % Stats
OLB Paul Kruger 31 45% 2 assists (2 combined).
OLB Joe Schobert 24 35% 2 tackles (2 combined).
OLB Cam Johnson 17 25% 1 tackle (1 combined).
OLB Nate Orchard 11 16% 2 QH.

Nate Orchard got two hits on the quarterback, and overall, this is a very low percentage utilization at outside linebacker. I know we got rid of Barkevious Mingo, but I'll have to review the tape so see who else was playing here; maybe it was Ogbah.

Inside Linebacker


Pos Player Plays % Stats
ILB Christian Kirksey 40 58% 5 tackles (5 combined).
ILB Demario Davis 40 58% 5 tackles (5 combined).
ILB Dominique Alexander 19 28% 1 assist (1 combined).
ILB Justin Tuggle 18 26% 4 tackles, 1 assist (5 combined). 1 TFL.
ILB Tank Carder 11 16% No stats registered.
ILB Scooby Wright 10 14% 1 assist (1 combined).

Christian Kirksey has looked solid this preseason. Demario Davis can be a thumper, but he's already been exposed several times as a liability in coverage. Justin Tuggle had a big spurt of plays he made in a short period of time, but I don't know if that will catapult him up the depth chart.


Safety


Pos Player Plays % Stats
S Ibraheim Campbell 37 54% 5 tackles (5 combined).
S Derrick Kindred 22 32% 2 tackles (2 combined).
S Rahim Moore 19 28% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Jordan Poyer 18 26% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Sean Baker 12 17% No stats registered.
S Pierre Desir 10 14% No stats registered.
S Don Jones 10 14% 1 tackle (1 combined).
S Tim Scott 7 10% No stats registered.


Derrick Kindred saw some early playing time, so it seems as though the starting safety situation isn't quite settled yet. I continue to like what Ibraheim Campbell brings from a tackling perspective, and I'm sure Rahim Moore is in the mix too.


Cornerback


Pos Player Plays % Stats
CB Jamar Taylor 39 57% 2 tackles (2 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Tracy Howard 38 55% 5 tackles, 1 assist (6 combined).
CB Charles Gaines 30 43% 1 pass defended. 1 FR.
CB Justin Gilbert 26 38% 1 tackle (1 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Eric Patterson 21 30% 3 tackles (3 combined). 1 pass defended.
CB Joe Haden
19 28% 1 tackle (1 combined).
CB Mikell Everette 12 17% No stats registered.

Mike Evans beat Justin Gilbert and Jamar Taylor for big plays. Vincent Jackson beatTracy Howard on a play. Speaking of Howard, with Tramon Williams out, he saw some playing time as early as the second quarter. He made two nice tackles against the run, which is something that should stand out on tape. Joe Haden played 19 snaps and then exited for the rest of the game.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/8/...-vs-buccaneers

Browns' Offensive Snap Counts and Stats vs. Buccaneers

11


Looking at the offensive snap counts in the Browns' 30-13 loss to the Buccaneers.

By Chris Pokorny @DawgsByNature Aug 27, 2016, 1:42p


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Kim Klement-USA TODAY SportsBelow, we analyze the snap counts on offense for the Cleveland Browns' third preseason game against the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.


Quarterback

Pos Player Plays % Stats
QB Robert Griffin III 34 50% 8-of-14 (57.1%) for 119 yards, 1 TD. 1 carry, 4 yards.
QB Josh McCown 25 37% 6-of-11 (54.5%) for 65 yards. 1 carry, 1 yard.
QB Cody Kessler 9 13% 5-of-6 (83.3%) for 27 yards. 1 carry, 1 yard.

Robert Griffin III was crisp in throwing the football on the first drive. After that, though, other than the touchdown pass to Josh Gordon, there wasn't a lot to jump up and down about. He was sacked five times, had to throw away a screen pass due to it being blown up, and ran out of bounds on one play when nothing was there. It was really a couple of holding penalties that set the offense back for awhile, and with Joe Thomas exiting early and Cameron Erving not being as sharp in protection, things fell apart at times. Overall, I thought it was still an acceptable performance from Griffin, though.


Running Back

Pos Player Plays % Stats
RB Isaiah Crowell 18 26% 8 carries, 39 yards, 4.9 avg.
RB Terrell Watson 17 25% 5 carries, 9 yards, 1.8 avg.
RB Duke Johnson 16 24% 3 carries, 22 yards, 7.3 avg. 1 catch, 9 yards (1 target).
RB Raijon Neal
8 12% 3 carries, 3 yards, 1.0 avg.
FB Malcolm Johnson 5 7% No stats registered.
FB Jahwan Edwards 3 4% 1 carry, 2 yards, 2.0 avg. 1 catch, -1 yards (1 target).

If we're looking for positives from the game, it's the fact that Isaiah Crowell still isn't being blown up like he was last year. Once he has a chance to get going, he's a very effective running back and that was again on display against the Buccaneers. Duke Johnson had a nice run at one point; other than that, the ground game died once the backups entered.


Wide Receiver

Pos Player Plays % Stats
WR Terrelle Pryor 33 49% 2 catches, 15 yards (4 targets).
WR Darius Jennings 26 38% 1 catch, 12 yards (2 targets).
WR Rashard Higgins 26 38% 0 catches (2 targets).
WR Taylor Gabriel 23 34% 6 catches, 60 yards (9 targets).
WR Josh Gordon
21 31% 2 catches, 87 yards (2 targets). 1 TD.
WR Corey Coleman
17 25% 0 catches (2 targets).
WR Andrew Hawkins 17 25% 1 catch, 2 yards (1 target).
WR Jordan Payton 6 9% No stats registered.
WR Ed Eagan
5 7% 1 catch, 5 yards (1 target).
WR Josh Boyce
3 4% No stats registered.

It was nice to see Josh Gordon get his feet wet and produce again, but it's a bit of a bummer that we have to wait until Week 5 for him to play. Rashard Higgins didn't do himself any favors with a couple of drops and also seemed to have a tough time getting separation. Corey Coleman didn't get involved in the action. Taylor Gabriel seemed to be Josh McCown'sonly target in the second half, as he tries to fight his way onto the roster despite a crowded field. It remains puzzling why Jordan Payton is seeing so few reps. Marlon Moore did not have any receiver reps this week.


Tight End

Pos Player Plays % Stats
TE Gary Barnidge 34 50% 2 catches, 6 yards (3 targets).
TE Randall Telfer 22 32% 0 catches (1 target).
TE Seth DeValve
12 18% 1 catch, 7 yards (1 target).
TE Connor Hamlett 11 16% 1 catch, 6 yards (1 target).
TE E.J. Bibbs 3 4% No stats registered.
TE J.P Holtz 2 3% No stats registered.

Randall Telfer seems to have a firm grip of that No. 2 blocking tight end role. Seth DeValvemade his debut and caught one pass. Expect to see him featured a lot in the final preseason game. E.J. Bibbs continues to see a very low utilization rate.



Offensive Line

Pos Player Plays % Stats
OT Dan France 40 59%
OG Joel Bitonio 34 50%
OG Alvin Bailey 34 50%
OT Austin Pasztor 34 50%
OG John Greco 34 50%
OG Kaleb Johnson 34 50%
C Garth Gerhart 34 50%
C Cameron Erving 34 50%
OT Shon Coleman 25 37%
OT
Spencer Drango 22 32%
OT
Joe Thomas 18
26%

Browns quarterbacks were sacked eight times. Things weren't nearly as crisp as they were a week ago against the Falcons, but Anthony Lima brought up a good point on Twitter -- Cleveland relies so much on these formation shifts, but Tampa Bay had been exposed to them for two straight practices. Maybe that helped them be well-prepared with some late adjustments of how to attack Cleveland.

http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2016/8/...-vs-buccaneers

Clearly, Sashi reads this board. You're a good man, Sashi!

Especially if you like high-scoring games (just that we don't seem to be on the right end of that stick). Low scoring O and a non-scoring D who doesn't pressure, take away, or tackle much. Recipe for success. Horton needs to step it up after the final flush. Thhis has been rough viewing so far.

Go, Browns.

I don't know what to think of Poyer from this preseason, as FS he's not gonna be that involved in the run game but I agree he wasn't around the ball much good or bad.

From our conversation about the different defense line-ups we both kinda saw Kruger as an obstacle for getting Nassib playing time and if they are equal players I got no issues with moving Kruger along to get Nassib out there. Personally I think Nassib has been better then Kruger thus preseason....

Poyer--Campbell

Orchard--Kirksey--Davis--Ogbah

Tramon--Haden

Hughes--Shelton--Cooper/Meder

Nickel: Nassib--Shelton--Cooper--Ogbah

It seems like Tramon lost his starting spot to Taylor. If he makes the team he'll be the nickel corner.

If Tramon stays, and when they go to a nickel, I think Taylor moves inside; Tramon is outside.

Still, I'm not fully convinced Tramon loses his starting job.

With Kruger being cut, I would not be surprised with any veteran being cut. Or any player period. Everyone is in play.

No doubt.

Doesn't he have a mild injury of some sort right now?

Yes.

I was away for the week-end and just read through the thread.

It seems that so far RG3 is being RG3. He has a very good long ball and escapability. He has learned to slide which is definitely a plus and should help keep him healthier longer. But some of his old habits still exist. He's still holding the ball, seems to have trouble with his reads post snap and seems a little skittish at times.

RG3 would be much better if given a better OL with more time protected in the pocket. It seems to me that anyone who knows the game (just seems to be a popular term on here lately lol) would understand that when you have a QB like Griffin, protection would be your best odds of success. Not sign him and then try to put together some make shift line with lesser talent and pray somehow it might work. When you look at a player like Grecco as an example. He looks very good in a supporting role between to very good players. But how will he look as the top dog between two lesser players?

The D and OL simply lack talent. It's nice to think your frog may turn into a prince, but the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Right now none is in the lead.

Friday was really hard to watch. Even with keeping in mind that it's the preseason and you aren't going to go out there and show any real looks, or any crazy blitz packages or anything like that.

It just seemed like Jameis Winston could hit a guy in the middle of the field for 15 yards any time he wanted.

And offensively the OL struggled just to keep their guy in front of them. Cam Erving is going to get someone killed. I don't think "it's the preseason" is any excuse for that guy not being able to keep his man in front of him.

I understand the thought process with letting guys walk in FA when you are trying to rebuild, but this is going to be a bad look, because this won't be fun, and it will seem like every season that we have seen since the 2007 fun season. But I just hope people keep it in mind that this is a true rebuild, and we have yet to really hit rock bottom with this roster. None of us want to hear about next year or the year after, but that's really what it is. It absolutely sucks, but this team wasn't going anywhere with the players that walked anyway. We need to draft way better than we have with these future drafts. File that one under "duh"

It's hard for me to tell from the broadcast angle if RG3 is holding the ball too long, or receivers aren't open (and what his progressions are). We've been running a decent bit of deeper routes which can take some time to develop. Hue mentioned something along the lines of holding the ball isn't always just on the QB in his presser. I wish I had the all-22 feed to get a better feel of things, but not enough to pay for it atm.

I don't think the OL lacks talent. The starters should be okay, the depth behind the starters was bad. France isn't a tackle, I can see why he got moved to G at Mich. State. I think our rookies will be okay with a little seasoning.

Our D-Line could use some more talent it seems. I agree on that.

All 22 is awesome, we'll worth it imo. But they don't give it until regular season. If you have a play you're really curious about send me a PM and I'll screen cap it (unless I learn how to vid cap/gif).

I don't think Buck game was a case of holding the ball too long. The pressure he faced was legit people getting beat quick pressure.

I'm optimistic about the Shon Coleman/Drango...Erving will need double team help.

DL is a mystery, there are some players with talent but not enough talent to be an average/above average unot. Unless Ogbah/Nassib stud out w/ 18+ sacks this D is gonna depend on Ray schemes em up whether they'll have success as D.

Why?

Maybe because he can't see what the receivers are doing - if they are open, etc?

Ahhh...........so a sack is preferable to throwing the ball away?

Is that what Hue is teaching RGIII?

Da hell you talking about?

Guy said, from the t.v. coverage, it's hard to tell if RG is holding the ball too long.

Meaning: was a receiver open? Or were they not open. Did RG just not see an open receiver?


The guy said he can't tell by watching the t.v. coverage. Period.

I get that you don't understand what I am talking about. No big deal.

j/c (quick reply)

Where do you throw it when you're in the pocket and have near instant pressure?

Pull a Weeden and chuck a wobbler to the other team?

Really, I'd just like to be able to see the whole field. I like to see how everything fits together. Some of the camera angles they use on TV are just plain bad as far as figuring out who's doing what.

Sometimes, sacks are not avoidable. However, some qbs....and RGIII is notorious for this.....hold the ball way too long and take needless sacks.

Check out Washington's sack totals w/him vs Cousins and Colt.

Furthermore, Hue has been trying to work w/RGIII on throwing the ball away [despite arch's feigned ignorance of the situation] and we heard of RGIII throwing the ball "over the fence" at TC.

It's an important part of the game that QBs need to master. Denial does not fix the problem.

Thanks for being so kind. But, it's not "feigned" ignorance. It's totally " I haven't watched more than a couple dozen plays this whole pre season" ignorance.

You're right, but it's still hard to see what exactly is going on from the TV views.

What you're not considering is that the QB has to get rid of the ball before he gets knocked down. If no one's open throw it in the dirt in the vicinity of a WR, throw it out of bounds, whatever, but do something before taking the hit or worse, losing yardage with the sack. It doesn't matter what's going on downfield. Quit holding the ball, get rid it.

I think that what Vers is saying is the RG3 seems to lack that clock in his head when it's time to either pass, run, or just get rid of the ball. An incomplete pass is better than a 8-10 yard sack, and he needs to get that through his head, like he has the idea that he has to slide instead of taking the big hit.

I have considered that, but there are also worse things like panic pick-6's. Sometimes, you just have to take the sack and live to play another down. Obviously, an incompletion is preferred over a sack.

It's just that I would like to see the whole field before passing definitive judgement. Where was he supposed to throw it away? Was his first read a bracketed receiver whom he had no room to step into a throw to? You can't just throw it into the stands from the pocket. People want to see him be a pocket passer, but this somewhat limits his options.

Could they have been bad sacks? Yes, but it's really near impossible to tell from the perspective I had to work with.

Here are Hue and RGIII talking about the sacks:




You can find these quotes embedded this article: http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland/post/...-only-beginning

My previous post somehow got addressed to Caldawg.

Without the all-22 its hard to get closer to the true answer of whether Griffin was holding the ball to long or not.

What we do know is that he was pressured on 42% of his drop backs and from watching the game you can clearly see where France, Pastor, Erving get beat cleanly multiple times.

I'm not sure which broadcast feed you get but Phil Simms was remarked on one play that there was no open downfield and mentioned how the OL was getting beat and Hue should consider pulling Griffin and lauded Griffin for his toughness.

Hue himself,(and from Hue's history he doesn't hesitate to tell it like it is) didn't put the sacks on Griffin holding the ball.

Going from memory it didn't appear from the TV broadcast that there were open receivers on the screen when the pressure was coming which means the receivers weren't running quick/short routes.

So I guess that means Griffin was holding the ball too long?

A more interesting conversation is how or if could Griffin have avoided those sacks. I think that's more of an actual football convo...but what do I know...

There was sack iirc the 1st "sack" in the RZ where Griffin scrambled out of the pressure towards the sideline and one could argue that he should have thrown it out of bounds but he was trying to make a play and got back within ~yard of the LOS. Earlier I faulted him on the 'sack' but this is merely a stat sack more then an actual sack in my book.

There were a couple of other sacks where imo the ideal answer to avoid the sack was to get the hell out of there with conviction Griffin seemed undecided/hesitant whether to bug the hell out of the pocket and which direction to break.

I should have guessed that from all the issues to talk about we're back to talking about the QB.

I don't see those quotes reflecting directly to sacks, but more the offense in general.



link

When you fail to do the things that RG3 spoke of, it leads directly to pressure and sacks. Not trying to be a smart a$$, but after watching football for so long, it really doesn't need to be stated to understand that.

RG3 spoke of completing quick and intermediate passes when they are there.

I'm saying I didn't have a good view of whether or not "they were there" on the sacks.

Hue didn't seem to put the sacks on Robert. He said the line needs to protect better. He did mention RG3 needs to play better, but I took that in a the whole team needs to get better way. I suppose the same thing could be said for the line, but he had that more positive section about Griffin.

I'm not that tore up about it either way. Would have liked to have a bigger picture view, but the end result was ugly regardless.

Hue is right that the whole team needs to get better. I think the starters could look a lot better when the regular season comes. Just about any injuries could hamstring us, though.