DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Carson Wentz: After the Fact

Well, to be honest...your original post reads as a bit of tirade. I mean after your public "apology" you follow up with some accusatory comments like "I get tired of people calling me clueless" and "I question the character of people who think I am whacked" etc.

Later you give Vambo a hard time. And then when I throw my 2cents in your reply starts:



So yeah...it's kinda hard to have a conversation with somebody when they are constantly grumpy, shouting and disrespectful.

I gave Vambo a hard time? LMAO..........did you read his posts?

This thread is about Wentz. It is NOT about me. Talk about Wentz or please remove yourself from it. Thanks.

Ditto to you.

I did talk about Wentz. In both of my previous posts. My third post replied direct to you as you directed a post at me. SO, if you want to talk about Wentz...talk about Wentz and don't redirect sarcastic posts at posters who may have a different opinion from you.

Carson Wentz looked really good the last two weeks. He is big. He is tough. He is poised. He has a good arm. He changes plays at the LOS. He adjusts protection schemes.

I was wrong in my assessment of him and guys like bonefish, Grimm, and many others were correct.

Don't worry, cause Cody is about to crush Wentz.

Too many people sleeping on this dude.

He has looked good. And, my hesitation to get overly excited is he has not played particularly great teams. Lets see how he looks against Pitt. This is a big game. Not divisional rivals but interstate rivals and a better defense than he has thus far faced. Also, as more film is available can Wentz adjust to defenses who have adjusted to him?

He may well be superb. But, I think we need more time to properly assess him.

Wouldn't that be great?! I would love for all the journalists who are going on and on about Wentz and the Browns passing on him and "not a top-20 QB" blah, blah, blah to just shut up. For once the Browns need to be the ones who sit high and mighty.

Let's go, Cody!

Wentz looked really good the last two games. I was against drafting him and I admit I was wrong. He is poised, accurate, athletic, and intelligent.

Wentz is going to be an okay/good quarterback, as long as Philly can keep him off his back. The danger in all of this is that evaluating a player based off of two games, where the opposing team defenses were known for being "terrible", is a bad practice and leads to poor evaluations.

We have a long season ahead of us. Before we start making Dan Marino comparisons with Carson Wentz, lets take into consideration the condition of our team. Also, as Browns fans, we have a quarterback anxiety and covet every quarterback that isn't on our team.

How would Carson Wentz operate in a Browns offense? He'd probably be on IR or on his way. We have real work to do on our offensive line (And no... Mack and Schwartz weren't great). We also have young WRs which would have created a bigger problem for Wentz.

We are another draft and a off-season away from being an effective team. This is a mulligan year for the Browns. We are not going to win a lot of games and everyone in Berea knows this... We've ruined enough QB's in the past that fans should realize that buying a sports car and driving it off-road won't improve the car's value.

Be patient and let the new regime work..... there are no short cuts to success.

j/c

an angle I haven't read here yet, and who knows if it's true, could be that Hue and the FO didn't want to immediately attach themselves to a top 10 drafted QB.

We all know that when a FO drafts a QB that high, they're basically connected to him. They either thrive with him, or they get fired because of him. Maybe they didn't want to put themselves and their own jobs "on the clock" right away. In essence, they bought themselves another year of employment.

I understand QBs rule the league. And Wentz looks far better than I ever thought he would look.

However, I still think the Browns made the right move regardless of what Wentz turns into.

How different or hopeful would this team and rebuild look with Wentz? Remember, two trade downs. All of those picks would disappear. For instance, what if we just took Shone Coleman instead of Nassib? Just Ricardo Lewis instead of Derrick Kindred? And now future 1st? 2 2nd round picks?

A QB is essential there is no doubt about it. And I believe that the Browns know it. I think these moves were made not because they think Wentz was not a top 20 QB, in fact I believe the Browns probably liked him a bit. I think it was more along the lines of, we need so much, and this can help fill more holes quicker and with more quality than having a QB of the future.

Other QBs will come and go. As long as this team can find one in the end, I am fine. But when they do finally call their shot, they better be right.

No doubt we needed bodies. The true evaluation will be in a few years once we see what some of the players we draft are doing.

I think his QB coach has a lot to do with him being so prepared.

I think the proof will be in the pudding in the next draft. See what we do to aquire a QB. Maybe Deshaun Watson out of Clemson.

This FO seems to have a plan and IMO, it includes tanking the season for their guy in 2017. This will determine if the Wentz move was solid or not.

Yeppers, Wentz looks really, really good so far. Professional.... That's all I have to add! lol

Not sure I'd fall on my sword just yet. Certainly, if you look at it at this exact moment, it looks like a monumental mistake to have passed on Wentz.

But, after 2012, it looked like a mistake not to throw the kitchen sink at getting RGIII.

I was, like you against taking Wentz.. Well, to be more specific, I didn't think there was a QB good enough to be either 1 or 2. So it wasn't so much about Wentz as it was about just not liking the talent people were hawking.

Goff isn't even playing for instance. On that one, it could look like you and I were both right. It looks that way today. But tomorrow is another day.

Wentz has played two relatively weak defenses. Let's see what happens when there is film on him and he has to play a strong D.

The problem is you can't just draft a QB at #1 and expect him to be a franchise. Maybe next year's class isn't as good? Maybe it's better? Maybe there's an injury? Etc.

Yeah but you know "analytics". Just sayin this is their plan. They're all in on the "analytics" thing. Next two years will be interesting.

I'd be interested to see what if "analytics" indicates for them to not draft a QB in the 1st round in the next 2-3 years? I wonder how true they'll stick to it.

I agree. These guys aren't stupid. They had to factor in this next qb class along with this years class. My feeling is they have a target or two at QB this next draft and decided to put a few parts in place for the guy.

I would bet that analytics show that the rookie QBs who have done the best are the guys who came to a team with complimentary parts in place rather than start building at the QB position.

Here's the thing. Knowing that, do you think, hypothetically speaking, if we had the #1 pick, would they have taken Goff or still traded back?

Goff is riding the bench right now.

No way to know for sure. I think the Browns intended to trade down all along. Pre draft Goff was the hotter name. I think they had to play to the hot name in case he was sitting there at #2 . But again, no way to know.

Looks like the real deal so far to me. Think we missed (again) on this one? Liked what I saw against us; can't expect him to beat everybody, but he has done more than "manage" a game. Like him more than RGIII.

j/c

I find it kind of funny how people compare Wentz to RG3 in how both are having success as rookies. These two simply don't compare at all.

RG3 was a gimmick QB. A one read option guy. Wentz is the prototypical NFL QB.

All young QB's will struggle. However, he has all of the ingredients to be a franchise QB. Poise, strength, smarts and command of the huddle.

And IF he turns out to be a top 20 NFL QB, this franchise was wrong and no amount of excuses will change the huge blunder that occurred in passing on him.

Its only a blunder if they do not find a franchise QB. Far too early to say they will not.

I had a late first on Wentz and no way in hell i would have taken the risk the Eagles did. Just wasnt enough for me to make that kind of investment. Right now atleast he appears to be for real.

As for future QB, if i had my choice of any QB in college right now, it would be hard not to take a very long look at the kid from Louisville, action jackson lol but I do expect 4 maybe 5 of these young QBs to go in the first.

How dare anyone question a FO that passed on a potential franchise QB for a fundamentally sound RG3 that the Redskins kicked to the curb?

Frankly, I did like Wentz.. but I agree with Deacon's take on this. As Peen notes: we were short on bodies. I'm much more upset about other things than Wentz.. Mack, Schwartz, Skrine and Ward come to mind.

I applaud you for this thread, Vers, although I remember you having a 3rd round project grade on him, but yeah, you wanted no part of him at 2 that's for sure. Not many Browns fans did though after the Manziel fiasco.

What made me a believer in Wentz was his pocket awareness mixed with his toughness. This is something that can't be taught and seperates the average from the elite QBs in the NFL. It's also something Weeden never had, and consider this my lesson learned on projecting college QBs into the NFL. He reminds me of Roethlisberger and he's off to a better start.

When our new FO traded down with Wentz on the board, I had the same sick feeling I had when we took Winslow over Ben and Manziel over Teddy or that entire Mangini draft, sensing that it would cost us years, maybe an entire era yet again. It speaks volumes that Wentz' play after only two games has led to this discussion and thread already. He was well worth the risk in a very weak class up top.

FWIW, that was my glowing report on him pre-draft after watching two of his games:

Pros:

- the arm, touch and accuracy are already all well above average
- makes very good decisions. Is not too protective and not too risky with the ball. Good balance.
- football smart. Knowns down and distance.
- very competitive and fearless. Natural leader
- very athletic, can run and isn't afraid of hits
- uncanny pocket presence, keeps eyes downfield, feels pressure and steps up

Cons:

None. I'm serious. This guy has it ALL.

I didn't expect much. All I read is that there's no franchise QB available. This guy is 1-1 material and the only question for the Browns should be if they have to trade up to get him or stay at 2 and select him.

I had a late first to early 2nd grade on him but was blown away people were talking about him #1 or #2 when there just wasnt much tape on the kid at all. those kinda players without a lot of experience generally fail big time at this level.

Cons
he was very inaccurate with his deep throws.
he had little experience behind center.
he took a lot of hits trying to keep the play alive.
The level of competition was incredibly weak.

Honestly, I felt he had the talent to make it but it would take him probably 3 years to start showing what he can be.

I said a month ago Hue must have wanted Watson next year .. Everyone made fun of me .. At least I know one more is on board with my "hey want a QB next draft real bad" theory ... I only used Watson cause he's the only name I mentioned ..

MOURG - who are the 4 or 5 u think may have 1st rnd po .. I wanna watch them .. Please share ..

GM - I get your joke .. But the COACHING is huge in Wentz's success .. They gave him a ton and he proved he can handle it ..

No way am I saying he's going to be good yet ... GUYS EVALUATING people this soon are crazy .. Lots of QB'S were headed to the HOF after. Few games and even a season ..

Just look at Kap and RG3 from just 3 or 4 years ago ... ITS WAY TO EARLY ..

With that said .. He's got a much better chance than the others cause as Pit pointed out he's got a true nfl skill set ..

But u watch Wentz PRE-snap .. And the things he's doing are veteran like . There's guys 3 or 4 years in that can't do what he's doing ..

- he's recognizing blitzes/pointing things out to the the lineman and backs .. He's audabling .. Witch some vets still can't do .. And it appeared they were sending in a few plays and letting him make the choice ..

Vers pointed out how good his post snap reads and decisions have been .. And he's 100%correct .. On some of the plays that decision is made pre-snap and when he verifies what he saw .. He makes the proper decision ..

It's still way to early .. But this kids got a shot ..

And what a leader .. U could tell that huddle was his .. And the players all ready respected him ..

If anyone can give me an example of POST snap reads, where a defense shifts to zone, that he's made and snaps off 1, 2, 3 progressions I'm really interested in trying to go back and see it. I've looked for it and I've not seen one case. IMO they've made things pretty vanilla for him, he's made the right decisions pre-snap, and gone there. Please tell me where I'm wrong. For what its worth, I was pro drafting wentz.

ps. I'm a stickler for details, this is on Hue and PEP. Hue and PEP! PEP and the wonderfully entertaining water bottle spectacle.

I was a big Goff fan and he's been inactive. Wentz is way better than I thought he was.


Which makes it so annoying we passed on him. ugh

If we can have consistency in our personnel and coaches, I am adamant that we need to draft the QB next year.

In looking at Wentz, he has looked really sharp. However to put it in perspective, he has played 2 teams that are firmly planted in the bottom half of the NFL in both offense and defense and could both be drafting in the top 5 next year... so I'm not exactly ready to make any declarations about him yet.

I won't say I was dead wrong on the guy because I didn't have that firm of an opinion... Probably from apathy but I didn't get into looking into players last year like I have in the past, just didn't find it all that interesting and assumed we would pick the wrong ones any way.

As I said in a different thread, if Coleman, Ogbah, Nassib and a couple others end up being really good and we get a good QB next year, people will soon forget we passed on Wentz... if we blow it, we will forever be reminded especially if he keeps progressing..

As for whether or not it's possible to "ruin" a QB... I believe it is. Look at Andrew Luck (no, I'm not saying he's ruined... yet), most of us would have told you 3 years ago he would be solidified as a top 5 talent by now but he is often injured and looks like a shell of himself. He still makes the amazing play now and then but the beating he has taken early in his career is taking its toll on him.

I liked Wentz better than Goff but didn't like taking either one at #2.

I really liked Wentz's size and athleticism but thought he was a second year starter. I thought that he would have a ton of work to do on the mental side of the game. He seemed a little slower processing in college and was more raw.

I didn't want him at #2, but remember saying that I would shut up and be happy if the QB whisperer took him at #2.

I thought of him as having a higher ceiling than Goff, but a lower floor. I was like you Verse and preferred Lynch at the bottom of the first or top of the second.

Wentz did have a great game against us, but I thought he had only a decent game against Chicago. Still way farther ahead than I would have bet that he would be at for week #2 though. His field presence is pretty amazing for a rookie. I not saying that he is a franchise QB yet though.

As far as next year's draft class, I don't even start looking at QB's until they get into the meat of their schedule. Lot's of guys look like the next Peyton Manning when the they are playing against Texas Christian School of Dishwasher Repair.

I try to start with a pretty long list of about a dozen names. Some of those names I will take off the list entirely and they will be replaced by the small school guys and guys that come out of the woodwork.

Right now I can't even tell you how many on this list will be drafted in the first round or how many will even be on the list as draft worthy at the end of the year. Some names that aren't on the list now will be on it later.

DeShone Kizer (right now my favorite)
Brad Kaaya (higher on him than most are)
Deshaun Watson (I'm not as high on him as everyone else)
Mason Rudolph
Chad Kelly
Luke Falk
Taysom Hill
Pat Mahomes
Patrick Towles
Baker Mayfield
Seth Russell
Davis Webb

If I look to the past with this franchise I get unhealthily angry. Just hope for the best.

Remember, extra-angry Wentz wanters, we'll be selecting our next first rounder IN Philadelphia...

Uggh, even looking towards the future is starting to sting.

Ben on Wentz

Nothing like rubbing extra salt in the wounds... This franchise is the ultimate embarrassment.

It's all good Vers. We're all wrong from time to time. I really wish we'd just take the BPA if a QB isn't there. That way at least we get the best talent available instead of a bunch of questionable picks every year.