Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
Disagree with those using "analytics"...and your gone!
Don't have a background in analytics...and your gone!
If you are an experienced scout who uses the old fashion eye test...your gone and you need not apply in Cleveland.
To me, looks like the Browns do not have much of a blend when it comes to judging talent...it is all analytics.
...analytics would have led to the Browns drafting Goff over Wentz. Turns out, they guys Sashi fired got it right about Wentz.
It was a dumb, stupid move to let scouts go early, before the draft. Who would know more about the Browns draft than a scout, cutting them lose allowed other teams to discuss what they knew about the Browns draft board.
The scouting is over when you reach the end of the contract on the expiration date...unless your given the boot before the draft.
I just did some research and I couldn't find anything that said that most NFL scouts are let go each year. Then again, I didn't see anything that said they were retained each year.
A couple of things to note:
--I typed in "are NFL scouts fired each year" and almost all the articles on the first page were about the Browns. There was one about that mentioned the Titans and another that mentioned the Bears.
--I came across some information that Depo fired the guys w/out actually ever meeting them.
--Other NFL teams brought in the fired scouts and were "picking their brains" about the Brown's draft plans.
--Depo and the analytics guys wanted to streamline the scouting department, which tells me they want to rely less on scouting reports and more on sports-science, high-performance, and analytics.
THU NOV. 17, 2016Started From the Bottom, Now the Cleveland Browns Are ... Still There
The loyal and long-suffering fans in the Dawg Pound have been promised hope and change far too many times. But Hue Jackson won’t stop believing, even if the Browns go 0-16
Each week during this 0-10 season, Hue Jackson has received a text message from Jim Haslam, the father of the man who owns the Cleveland Browns. The elder Haslam is 85 years old and lives in Knoxville, Tenn., but he’s taken the occasion of each week’s loss to reassure the head coach who was hired by his son to lead this team.
Hang in there.
This is tough.
There are better days ahead.
Jackson saves these messages on his phone, along with those sent by team owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam. “I keep them,” Jackson says, “because when it is dark, I can open my phone and go find them.”
This season has tested Jackson, a man so optimistic that he has steadfastly refused to use the word rebuild since he was hired in January. That’s unmistakably what this season is—a teardown, in the hopes of building a solid structure from the ground up. But even by Browns’ standards, a franchise that is on its ninth head coach since returning to the NFL in 1999, the extent of this makeover is staggering.
“I have never seen anything even close to this,” says left tackle Joe Thomas, whose 10 seasons in Cleveland make him the longest-tenured Brown. “It is probably one of the most extreme rebuilds in NFL history.”
The Browns began the 2016 season with 17 rookies on their 53-man roster, the highest of any team since the 2002 Ravens (Baltimore finished 7-9 that year). Going into Week 11, the Browns now have 19 rookies who comprise more than one-third of their roster; the 29 players with two or fewer seasons of experience make up more than half their roster. And many of these young players are playing significant roles. Twelve rookies have made a total of 46 starts this season, including seven by QB Cody Kessler; all told, Browns rookies have amassed more than 3,000 snaps of playing time.
Consider this admission by Sashi Brown, the executive VP of football operations, that registers as either stunning or painfully self-aware: “We are not focused on wins and losses this year.”
The narrative around the Browns is one of morbid curiosity: Will they win a game or will they earn the dubious distinction of joining the 2008 Lions as the only 0-16 teams in NFL history? A more important question looms, however. Can this rebuild actually succeed?
Talk about The Plan flows freely out of the Browns’ home on Lou Groza Boulevard. Sashi Brown and Hue Jackson avow firmly that the organization is committed to the long-term view from ownership on down, even as it has reaped no early returns in the win column. “We are not going to blink,” Brown says. “No one is panicked here.”
The Plan was implemented following the Browns’ 3-13 finish in 2015. It was their eighth straight losing season, and an accumulation of draft misses had eroded the talent on the roster. Instead of getting stuck in the “cyclical monotony” of chasing “fleeting mediocrity” through free agency, as Brown put it, they decided to start anew. In other words, the Browns opted for a total demolition instead of installing new countertops or painting the cabinets.
Jackson, known for getting the most out of the players he’s coached no matter the position, was last offseason’s big acquisition. The team also promoted Brown from general counsel and hired former baseball exec Paul DePodesta as chief strategy officer. The front office went all in on building through the draft while letting four starters—right tackle Mitchell Schwartz, center Alex Mack, receiver Travis Benjamin and safety Tashaun Gipson—walk in free agency. The team put a premium on draft capital, trading the No. 2 overall pick and turning it into a haul of current and future picks, including an extra first-rounder in 2017 and extra second-rounders in ’17 and ’18. The way forward was clear: The new regime was going to pick its own players and build from the ground up.
It’s unwise to evaluate a draft even as recently as a year out. But the early-season success of quarterback Carson Wentz, taken by Philadelphia in the No. 2 spot that the Browns traded away, did not earn any credibility points for an organization that is perennially searching for a QB—they’ve cycled through 26 starters since 1999, and three this season—nor did it quiet the anti-analytics crowd. Plus, some of the young ascending players the Browns let go in favor of handpicking their own core, have been thriving in other cities. Taylor Gabriel, for example, was released by the Browns during final cuts and claimed by the Falcons, who have used him as a valuable speed receiver to alleviate some safety attention on Julio Jones.
“We always look back on our decisions,” Brown says, when asked about passing on Wentz. “You try to be as thorough as possible going in, and as humble as possible coming out. Are there things we could have, and should have, done differently? That said, we really like the decision we made. I think it’s dangerous to start evaluating decisions once you have information you didn’t have going into them. And our trade, really, hasn’t even borne all its fruits.”
In other words: Wentz is doing well, but give The Plan a chance. Asking for trust and patience from a fan base that has been fooled so many times is a tough proposition. So is changing the culture among a team with 19 rookies who have yet to experience a winning locker room on a Sunday afternoon. Jackson worries about the impact of the losing on the young players. He says he’s talked about that with his top lieutenants on the coaching staff, and with his players. They’ve competed hard and held halftime leads in four games; they’ve also kept four of their games within one score, including an OT loss in Miami. “The team is filled with rookies,” Thomas says with a half-smile. “They’re still trying to prove they can have a place in the NFL.”
In Baltimore last Thursday night, the Browns’ defense had to burn a timeout on the first play from scrimmage because they had 12 men on the field. Kessler was yanked from the game in the third quarter and replaced with veteran Josh McCown, because Kessler was struggling to execute the offense at a fast enough pace after a short week of preparation. Undrafted rookie Briean Boddy-Calhoun, whom the Browns claimed on waivers in September and is now their nickel cornerback, made a fantastic interception early in the game, but later gave up two touchdown passes. Inability to close out games is a symptom of a young team.
For veterans like Thomas and cornerback Joe Haden, who is now playing his seventh season in Cleveland, the rebuilding seems perpetual. Every year around the trade deadline, including this one, their names have been mentioned as potential trade bait. They politely say that they try not to think about potential distractions; that they only worry about what they can control; that they would love to bring a winner to the Browns’ loyal and long-suffering fans. And every year, including this one, the trade deadline passes with no move.
“I am here for a reason,” Haden said in the visitors’ locker room in Baltimore. “S---, I just gotta try to get us out of this [skid].”
Patience has never been a virtue of the Cleveland Browns. Since purchasing the team in 2012, Haslam has fired three different head coaches and general managers. Nor is patience a virtue of this business. Jackson knows that firsthand: He was fired by the Raiders from his first head-coaching job after just one 8-8 season.
Before he took the job in Cleveland, Jackson said Jimmy and Dee Haslam told him they were committed to giving him time to see The Plan through. In other words, even if this team finishes 0-16, Jackson is confident he’ll be at the helm next season and beyond. “I never would have taken this job if I didn’t know that, and if I didn’t have assurance of that,” Jackson says. “I know that, without question. That’s not what I have ever been concerned about. They said, ‘Hue, we are going to do this the right way. It might take a little time to get it to where it needs to be, but we are comfortable and confident in you, and you are the guy we want to have here to lead this team and this organization.’ That’s comforting.”
So, what’s the timeline?
Neither Jackson nor Brown wanted to put the Browns on a clock. But you’d figure a businessman like Jimmy Haslam, who was not made available to speak for this story, would need to see the plan taking shape within two to three seasons. There is still a full-scale investment in this course of action, even down to a scouting staff that is listed on the team website as having 18 scouts and 11 scouting assistants—at least double the size of most teams’ scouting staffs in the league. But a recent CBS report by Jason La Canfora described low organizational morale as the Haslams are taking hands-on control of several departments from football analytics to marketing; the report also revealed heightening “tension” in the building, particularly between the front office and the coaching staff. The marriage of a former Moneyball exec and an old-school football guy such as Jackson has the potential for disagreements. Brown’s response: “I hope there would be a tension, just from losing.”
The team’s public vow to stick to The Plan doesn’t mean the way this season has unfolded won’t inform future personnel strategy. The trade for linebacker Jamie Collins earlier this month, for example, was an indication that the Browns may be more aggressive in adding talent heading into the second offseason under this regime. They’re projected to have nearly $65 million in salary cap space available for re-signing players they view as building blocks, such as Collins and wideout Terrelle Pryor, and their reserves of draft capital could help them if they decide to make a play for a trade target such as Patriots QB Jimmy Garoppolo.
Jackson says this season has tested him “emotionally, physically, spiritually.” He spent the offseason rehabilitating Robert Griffin III, only to have the quarterback be sidelined with a shoulder injury in Week 1. You can’t coach talent, and right now, the Browns don’t have enough. Late in last week’s 28-7 loss to Baltimore, as the Ravens were running out the clock, Jackson stood quietly on the sideline with his cheeks puffed out—a rare public view into a pain unlike any other he’s experienced in football.
“I hope this is the only time I ever have to feel this way,” Jackson says. “I get that we are in this process, and it’s something I signed up for, and you have to do everything you can to see it through. I don’t run from it. I don’t think a lot could do it. I don’t think a lot would understand it, or want to tackle it.”
Jackson meets with Jimmy Haslam three to four times a week. “When you can sit down with people, and they get your fear, they get your doubt, they get your hurt, your feelings, I think it says a lot,” Jackson says. “Those are the kind of people I work with every day.”
But after the losses, Jackson has done something that reflects on his own personal confidence. In private moments, he’s told opposing players and coaches a simple message: “You better get me now. Because this organization is coming back. I promise you that.”
actually preferred Wentz to quarterback Jared Goff and believed him to be the greater pro prospect.
Quote:
with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
These are the only two parts of the article that are relevant to me. Some of the scouts (and Hue) liked Goff. The others liked Wentz. Nothing in the article says that all scouts who liked Wentz were fired. I'm sure there are some in the building still employed that may have liked Wentz over Goff. I also wouldn't be surprised some that weren't retained might have liked Goff. Nothing in this article or in Mac's speculation says scouts were fired simply because they liked Wentz.
What is common is not all scouts are retained after regime changes. Some leave, some come onboard. I can't comment with certainty if it's uncommon that scouts are let go three weeks before the draft because I don't follow other teams. I certainly won't take JLC word for it. With that said, I don't think it's that good of an idea to let scouts go who have information about your draft board. What if they get paid by a team that is selecting just before or after your pick and know what we're thinking and who we like? Or any team for that matter that just has more info on your tendencies.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
I don't think Peen is accurate on this. I will say that when you have a regime change, which we did, that almost always, the scouts that the new regime doesn't think fit, are released. Nothing unusual about that really.
Peen is probably correct about them being released early. It gave them a leg up on other scouts that will be looking for a new job.
As for the article that Mac posted, LaConfora is all that needs said. I'm not sure why, but that guy sure seems to hate the Browns.
Last edited by Damanshot; 11/17/1609:21 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
If you are an experienced scout who uses the old fashion eye test...your gone and you need not apply in Cleveland.
Because those scouts on the staff that used the old-fashioned eye test in the past have generally paid dividends for us, right?
Maybe it's not just about analytics and the fact that the new FO looked at players drafted in the past two or three years and didn't like the results or who they personally recommended.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Consider this admission by Sashi Brown, the executive VP of football operations, that registers as either stunning or painfully self-aware: “We are not focused on wins and losses this year.”
The guy should be fired right now...he never should have been hired to begin with.
Thats loser mentality right there...He is not trying, and he doesn't even care, and the product he has put on the field shows.....
Accepting losing for any reason just makes you a loser....
Every year you should be putting the best product you possibly can on the field by any means or resources available to you with sole intention of winning....period...
I don't want ANYONE running this team that thinks is OK to lose for any reason...I don't give a damn if you want to tank for a 1st rd pick...its NEVER acceptable to lose....not only has this doofus short changed the lockeroom, and the coaching staff, but they have short changed the fans and this city give them a steaming pile of dung....with no guarantees that dung will ever change.
Say what you will about past regimes, even Shurmur....they didn't ever tank purposley...all of them tried to win every damn game, and used every resource they had to try and field a team that would at least try and win
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
What gets me Mac...is you think your opinion is fact and other opinions are "Spin".
I mean make your case but you have nobody to debate with cause if they make a case you don't even address it...Automatically its spin. Man your agenda against the FO is lame. btw did any Scouts get let go that didn't like Wentz?
I'm not sure about the one year contract Peen Mentioned...it could be so or not. What I do know is their fiscal year contractually is different than the rest of the organization. Immediately after the draft is when those whose contracts will run out...
Also the case there was not that they wanted us to pick Wentz at two or not - the case is they preferred Wentz to Goff.
btw...what standard are you using that Wentz is the better QB. Me personally before the draft and after thought so but Goff has not taken the field of play yet how can you assess that as a fact???
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
eo...the analytics crew made the decision to pass on Wentz.
Given the fact that the Browns #1 need going into the 2016 draft was a franchise QB, today, it appears that the stat boys were face to face with a franchise QB, holding the #2 pick in the draft and Wentz setting at #2, waiting to be drafted.
With all their formulas and analytic charts and graphs, Depodesta, Sashi and Andrew Berry were staring at a potential (Browns) franchise QB for the next 10 yrs... ...and they had no clue, trading away the pick.
With all their analytics, they missed on Wentz...what the hell does that say about analytics?
To me, the front offices choice screams the need for something more than just "analytics" in the front office...,maybe something like an experienced football guy to help balance the front office.
To me, the front offices choice screams the need for something more than just "analytics" in the front office...,maybe something like an experienced football guy to help balance the front office.
They do have more than analytics. You just choose to cover your eyes about it. The larger question is if those football guys in the scouting department are actually good or not. The football experience is there....didn't you seem Deputy's post? The execution is still up in the air.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
He knows the football experience is there, he just does this to keep calling attention to himself. I stated that before. He craves attention, so he keeps blabbing away.
Dawginit since Jan. 24, 2000 Member #180 You can't fix yesterday but you can learn for tomorrow #GMSTRONG
I want to do it as a Cleveland Brown because that's who I am.”
Of course I read your post. It was just two sentences that didn't really offer much substance, which is why I asked for clarification. However, it doesn't look like you've taken the time to read the prior posts that triggered bleed to respond the way he did. The reason is varied comment is not what is being discussed. It's actually a vary narrow POV mac has. That's what is being debated.
I don't know how you can respond the way to did (quite frankly to both us) not really knowing the substance of the back-n-forth. But whatever!
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
Well, Sashi did say "We would be very disappointed if we have four wins. " back in August in response to people claiming the Browns were going to tank this season. Apparently he thought we would get some wins.
The only choice is go go forward with this mess. Right now, I have zero faith these guys are going to get it right.
It's supposed to be hard! If it wasn't hard, everyone would do it. The hard... is what makes it great!
Firing them now would be stupid. Haslam and the FO knew that the plan they put in place would take multiple years to work. No one thought they would win this year.
To fire anyone now would just result in setting the team back yet anther year.
I don't know if their plan is good or not. I see some things I like and some things I don't like. However, after choosing a plan, you gotta have the fortitude to stick with it.
Well, Sashi did say "We would be very disappointed if we have four wins. " back in August in response to people claiming the Browns were going to tank this season. Apparently he thought we would get some wins.
The only choice is go go forward with this mess. Right now, I have zero faith these guys are going to get it right.
Hey, we could still go 6 and 10
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Oh I knew the back and forth. So far history has shown that to date, since our return, all detractors about regimes and coaching staffs that have put them in a negative light have been 100% correct.
The reasoning has little to do with their perfect prediction rate. You see, you seem to feel I have a horse in this race. Actually the best thing for all of us would be that mac is totally wrong.
I didn't make the news, I just report it. To date, those who had reservations about every prior regime has been 100% correct. Those who have slung mud at them and questioned them have been 100% wrong.
Like it or not, those are the facts.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
No, I don't think you have a horse in the race. If you did, I wouldn't know which one, nor have the desire to dwell on it.
I think you are bringing up something that has nothing to do with why people are replying to mac the way that they are. No one would deny that those questioning past regimes have been 100% correct. But that's not source of contention here.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Not sure why there has to be a source of contention. How about one guy states his opinions and another guys states his opinions and leave the contentious out of it?
I realize that I have been part of such contentious, but if you think about it, the board would be a lot better if we leave that out of our posts and just post our beliefs. I am not saying this in a mean-spirited way. It's just sometimes in life you realize what is important and what isn't.
Scouts are hire from draft to draft. Only a slim few have contracts that run over 1 year. At the end of the draft you have many scouts seeking new employment.
Is that really true? Does anyone have a link that talks about almost all scouts being fired each year?
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
scary way to make a living. better be damn good at it I guess.
I bet you're wondering the samething I did, why O' why didn't I take the...blue pill
I don't know how scary it is. I have a bit of experience w/scouting. It was at the collegiate level and not the NFL, but I doubt they are much different. You are on what they call a continuing one-year contract that is either renewed or not each year. It's more rare than not to not be renewed. Far more rare.
Well..........don't take my word for it because I am not sure how it works in the NFL.
I just know that one year contracts are not atypical in many fields. Even as a teacher, I was always on one-year contracts.
You have a valid point, but I think there is a bit of a difference as far as supply and demand.
There are only 32 NFL teams and a ton of hopeful scouts. While there are a lot of teachers, there are also many more schools in need of them.
I'm not a big fan of the constant turnover, but if they weren't on the same page it probably wouldn't have produced favorable results. Hopefully, the new system has the right people in place.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
I don't know, peen. As a teacher, I worked on one year contracts every year of my career. However, unless I really screwed up or if I was low on the totem pole and there were budget cuts, there was no way I wasn't going to be retained.
It seems stupid to think that teams would replace the majority of their scouting staff each year. Not trying to be confrontational, but I doubt if that is the way it works.
I am not saying all, or maybe even many don't get retained, but i have read several times that your typical scout is retained to a 1 year contract....draft to draft. Obviously if you do a good job and nothing changes in the FO, you get another 1 year deal.
scary way to make a living. better be damn good at it I guess.
Sounds like a job most everybody would like. Most can get fired tomorrow and won't get paid for the rest of the year. The contract for most people with jobs is basically day to day.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The Browns' decision to pass on Carson Wentz in the draft combined with the rookie's sterling performance against them in Week 1, a potential season-ending injury to Browns starter Robert Griffin III and comments from Browns official Paul DePodesta intimating the Browns didn't believe Wentz would be a "top-20 quarterback" have created a tempest in Cleveland. As it turns out, not everyone involved in scouting quarterbacks in Cleveland before the 2016 draft was in agreement.
According to numerous sources with knowledge of the situation, several of the more seasoned scouts and evaluators the Browns parted with prior to the draft -- an unusual time to release such employees -- actually preferred Wentz to quarterback Jared Goff and believed him to be the greater pro prospect. It was clear to many in the organization dating back to December, when the Browns held intense draft meetings, that the newly-empowered analytics department, soon to be spearheaded by DePodesta, strongly preferred Goff. And new coach Hue Jackson and his offensive coordinator, Pep Hamilton, were not high on Wentz but prized Goff, sources said, and made that clear to the rest of the organization.
The Browns opted to release six members of the organization -- many of them experienced, old-school scouts -- just three weeks before the draft. At the time, they were bailing on the quarterback market in the draft (and Wentz in particular) and shopping their second-overall pick to other teams. Many of those men, a group that included former general managers and personnel directors, had never met DePodesta personally before being let go, and, with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.
But the timing of their release raised eyebrows then and continues to generate chatter now given the high-profile way in which their quarterback decision has played out and the fact that the segment of personnel they let go were more pro-Wentz than others.
Wentz has played just one game, and will surely face some hurdles in his rookie season, but the reviews on his debut were overly positive. The Browns could end up with the first pick in the draft, and evaluators are already gushing over Notre Dame junior quarterback DeShone Kizer. The Browns will almost certainly be taking a passer very high in 2017.
Disagree with the new boys and your fired!
The more experienced scouts who preferred Wentz...gone. The way it worked out, the only thing worse than passing on Wentz may have been "taking Goff", which was what the "analytics boys" wanted to do.
...think about that when you start to praise these guys for their ability to judge football talent.
Can you OR Mr Know nothing big mouth Jason La Canacorna even name the six scouts who were fired, and point to any evidence as to why the six guys should have been kept instead of let go?
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