DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Offensive Line, continued....

As it was pointed out Garret was playing on the bum ankle and you are not qualified to make that statement.

You need to be a football guy with at least 20 years of experience to make that statement.

If the Browns take two offensive linemen in the first 2-3 rounds AFTER letting two good offensive linemen walk this past off-season, I am going to explode!!!

mac this is my only concern with your post...I see it differently..

" Garrett will likely be looking to score that mega contact after his rookie deal...and will not give his all to the Browns."

If Garrett is looking to score a mega contract after his rookie contract. He will have to play lights out to earn one...won't get paid if does not do that...he will get a cheap contract if his play does not warrant a mega deal

Bama ran a total of two designed runs to the left of the center the entire game. Both right into the left a gap. Both of which plays he was doubled by robison and the lg. He also gave zero ground and anchored well on those plays. Out of 57 rushes only two were within 2 gaps of Garrett. Yet he still had 4 tfl by getting to the option before the rb could even move. And I'd be happy to track every play and calculate how many times the qb held the ball longer than 3 sec without rolling right, running or passing but without writing it down I counted 4. Robinson did an admirable job and I'm much higher on him than most and I'm all for being objective but calling Garrett's performance anything but great is foolish. That isn't even considering his ankle being sub par. He is truly a generational talent and while he doesn't play with his hair on fire he is very similar to Joe Thomas in his nature. I can't really knock him for that and any "rumors" of his taking it easy to limit injuries could be said of any player and there is zero proof.

mac, I don't like the overall talent of the offensive line in this upcoming draft. I think signing one mid-level FA would be wise.

I do think the talent is high on the defensive side of the ball. I think we desperately need an edge rusher. I think we need upgrades at corner. I think we need two new safeties. I think we could use an ILBer.

I think we can go BPA and fill many of those needs.

I am going to be pissed if we draft a QB or OL-man high!

"he gives up easily if he does not beat the defender. If he feels he is out of the play, he will not chase. "

This is my biggest issue with Garrett. I see a guy with the talent to be Lawrence Taylor but the desire to be Cameron Wimbley.

I am worried that he needs to go to a team like the Patriots or the Ray Lewis Ravins to realize greatness. He needs some strong willed veterans to get on his butt. We don't have that guy on our team.

Garrett and Collins on one side would be fun to watch..

You have a high motor guy like Nassib at DE, Garrett blitzing the outside from OLB and Collins crashing the middle at MLB?

Sign me up.

Can you imagine a 5-2 with Garrett, Nassib, Danny, Bryant and Ogbah with Kirksey and collins staying clean. Goosebumps

Based on what? Where are you getting your info? He reminds me of someone that ran to the pile and jump on late, then run to the play and after the tackle was made run around the pile. Can you guess who this was? He was one of my favorite players, Clay Matthews. I have dvd's of some old games, man it's a hoot. Some plays it's like who is this guy, shows up late a dives into the pile or a run up the middle and the tackle was already made and here he comes runs to pile looks at tackle and then runs around the pile And I love Clay, but man it seems like he wanted to be anywhere but the play sometimes.

He was an All-Pro. The point is, not everybody goes 110%, does not mean that they don't care, it just means somebody else already made the play. There's nothing wrong with that.

Based on my eyes.

Go to draftbreakdown and watch some of his cutups.
There are enough plays where he gives up pursuit well before the play is over, gives me some concern.

Running late into the pile is very different than not even running to the pile

Fine, you can have your concerns, I'm just saying if you get a chance look up Clay and watch him play. No way you would ever think he was an All-Pro. I think the Green Bay "Dave Logan Game" in 1980 game and the Jets double overtime game was another one. Good Times

Ahh, but the 20 years was your standard, not mine, but I'll bite. His reaction was pretty decent given that the run was to the opposite side. First, he didn't get sucked in, in case it was a reverse. He chased the RB for about 20 yards, he let up at the end but he was losing ground to a pretty speedy back so I could see why. I would prefer someone that didn't let up until the whistle but It's hard to fault a guy that had no chance to make the tackle. Some might fault him for not knifing through the traffic to the left, but you can tell he didn't see the ball till the RB broke from the crowd.

Now let's hear your take on how horrible he was on that play.

They run block well, but suck pass blocking.

Raiders o-line is nuts. Raiders have the 7th most pass attempts and are still number 1 in total QB hits allowed is insane. It is not even close either. They've allowed 11 less than the Titans. Carr is throwing the ball 38.25 times a game and getting hit 2.1 times a game.

Thanks for getting this thread back to the OL.

I agree w/you about the Raiders' OL. For the last few weeks, I have been saying that they have the second best OL in football. One other thing about hem...........have you seen them.....they're freaking huge.

They really missed Osemele the other night. He was a great FA pick-up for the Raiders. He's enormous and no-one bull rushes him. He is also huge in their running game.

The Raiders and Cowboys have the best OLs right now ... and look at their records. Dak/Carr have been very good, but would probably suck with us

j/c

There are a lot of OL gurus on this board and I'd like to get some opinions here. I'll throw out what I see, but acknowledge that I don't always see what the gurus see. This is mostly intended for looking into the future on the OL:

Thomas - He's still a legit All-pro type guy

Bitonio - He's in the top 1/3 of Gs and is a legit starter...I'll assume he's going to heal up for the START of next year. I often times read where he "could" play RT. I don't have the experience/eye to evaluate that potential but that comment always gets my attention.

Greco - Solid starter and can play all the interior spots. He has the same injury as Bitonio but I doubt he's ready for the START of next season. He's been underrated most of his time here as he's been no worse than very solid. At times, he might be/have-been the best OL on the unit - all due respects to JT. My concern here is that a foot injury for a guy his age is not good...that and he won't likely be available on opening day.

Reiter - Yeah...I'm listing him before Erving. Looked quite good in the 3/4 of a game that we saw him. He was kinda of unnoticed in that game - in a good way for OL. He's young and most guys return from ACLs these days. Is he the 'answer' at C?

Pasztor - I think he's played better than he gets credit...although he's no Schwartz. I think he's done well at RT - outside the Miami game which ironically is the ONLY game we can TRULY say we should have won. He played well at G last year and I think he's a G moreso than a T - mostly because that's what I read from guys who seem to know that stuff. He's young too. I hope we keep him and throw him in the mix. At worst, he's a G/T backup and those guys are valuable.

Drango - I think he's played well considering he was thrown in the fire and considering who lines up to his right.

I say those six guys are no-doubt keepers.

Cooper - We will see. I'm hearing that he's pretty-much a RG type. If he shows something, he has a chance to stick. If for no other reason than my guess that Greco won't be able to start the season.

Bailey - What a huge disappointment this guy has been. He was going to start at RT...wasn't good enough...he played some at RG and seemed below-average to me. Again, I suppose we have to consider who is to his left. Cooper is ahead of him now.

Erving - I have no idea what to say here. He's been bad...really bad. Yet lately I read where some say he has improved...but even those people seem to be very concerned with his ability to make the line calls. We've gone from a genius making the line calls (Mack) to this guy. How weird is that? I don't think he's a C.

Coleman - Who the heaven knows? I've read where some say he's the best RT on the team. I have no idea with this guy.

Fabiano & Ikard - I'm putting these guys together for now. I know only what I've read in their Bios. I don't remember any talk about them on this board.

If we don't sign/draft a guy(s) I guess this would be the starting lineup next year (with Greco out at the start):

JT-Bitonio-Reiter-Cooper/Drango-Pasztor

Backups:
Coleman-Erving-Fabiano-Ikard

Awe inspiring, no? I don't want to draft an OL before the 3rd because our defense needs so much help. I want our (3) injured OL guys to come back strong and early. If I grew 4" taller I wouldn't be so overweight.

I'm on board with the comments I've read about picking up a FA OL. Could be a RT-type or a G even. It hurts my head to say that after the Schwartz non-signing last year. We do not have the luxury of feeling set here with so many ???. Will all (3) guys return from injury? When will Greco be ready to play again? Is Cooper a viable option? Where/what is Coleman?

As much as I hate to say/acknowledge it, we need help here. If not FA, then the draft. We won't likely get immediate help in the draft after the 3rd Rd - which makes my head hurt again.

What do we really have here? Do we have guys showing enough promise to be legit players? Can we roll the dice on the injured guys coming back?

I am not by any means an oline guru but here are my thoughts on your post.

1, I agree with most of your observations.

2, Love JT but how many more years will he be around?
we need to start planning for his replacement

3, love Bitonio but he he sure seems to get injured quite frequently

4, Greco is really underrated. His injury is a bummer.

5, I think Pasztor is a pretty good OG. I think he can on either side
He is a so-so RT. Unfortunately he is by far the best RT on the Roster.

j/c

I know it is/was only one game...however...I'm reading a lot of positive comments about J Cooper's play. Also reading that Erving had another good game and looks to be progressing. (Lots of the 'ole...he's basically a rookie this year type stuff now.)

Cooper's play helped Pasztor to a good game as well since he could focus on HIS job and not Bailey's.

I want Cooper to work out...I want Pasztor to work out...I want Erving to work out...we need all the help we can get. I'm just not sure if I'm optimistic about these guys because they are really looking good...or if I'm optimistic because I WANT them to work out.

I hope Jonathan Cooper works out but I would be interested to know what his issues were in ARZ. This guy will be 27 next season. I think he has a fifth year option the Browns can pick up because he was selected in the first round so we may not have to fully value his worth in a long-term contract if he proves he can stick around...at least not yet.

John Greco makes less than $1MM next year and coupled with Cooper and Bitonio, we might have some nice depth at the position.

It was only one game...hopefully we see some consistency.

5, I think Pasztor is a pretty good OG. I think he can on either side ...

The above is spot on ! .. We do not have a real RT on the roster at this point .

He couldn't stay healthy. It wasn't anything major, but several minor injuries and an inability to be healthy in training camp that kept him out of the line-up.

Thank you for the information on Cooper.

j/c:

In the Post Game Thoughts thread, I noted that Cooper and Pazstor played well and really opened a lot of holes in the running game.

I know both guys had a good grade from PFF.

Now, I am seeing a lot of love for Erving. Does anyone know what his grade for the game was?

Don't know what his grade was but I read from one of the OBR contributors (a guy that studies the film) that he thought it was the best game Erving has played as a pro.

not directly, but this indicates good performances from the other 4 memebers of the line and crow, and gives the best grade of the game to atkins.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cle-cin-grades-bengals-offense-heats-up-first-half/

Thanks to you and Rish for responding. I am just questioning to how good Erving play. I saw a few nice blocks that impressed me. I also saw him miss some blocks and another one where a guy crossed his face and it appeared he didn't even see him.

On the other hand, I thought Cooper and Pazstor played well for most of the game. I think I only saw one bad play be each. But again, it's hard to tell on TV.

Just checked your link out. Joe T had our highest grade, but Cooper and Pazstor were right behind. Thanks again.

Just my two cents, but Erving has played much better physically all year. It's mentally where he has struggled this year, but I did not notice any brain farts this game. Atkins did manage to bull rush him a few times, but he does that to everyone else as well. Overall he had a decent game in my opinion, which against Atkins means not looking like a speed bump.

That's probably a fair take.

Just wanted to address how some are acting like he has turned the proverbial corner by saying he has had 3 good games in a row. Not so sure about that.

For example..........if mac or myself would say that Erving has "sucked" for 3 straight games, the outrage would be tremendous. In fact, that has already been proven in the past.

Just trying to keep things "real."

If you said Erving "sucked" these past three games, the outrage would be real. If others said he looked like Mack these last three games, the outrage would be "real".

So we only need to draft a Tackle? Keep the rest of the line as is?

I'm still not very high on Erving. I'm not a watch the oline guy, so its hard for me to say if his last 3 games were good, but I know rg3 had good time to throw this past game.

I say we still draft his replacement. I think we can get a good C in the 2nd round.

The guy still has a ways to go, but like EO said, I like his improvements from game to game this season. Heck, even last year we saw flashes of what he could do, he just never put it together.

For me, more than time for RG3 to throw (which was important) were the running lanes opened on the right side of the line. They were massive at times. I think Cooper played a role in that but the two worked together well. Since Bitonio went down, I think this might have been the best running game for Crowell and he ran it just 10 TIMES....but that's another issue entirely.

To my naive eye, I think Erving has progressed this year. I think between that and Reiter (sp), I'm happy leaving the C position until later in the draft. I was also, like others, really impressed by Cooper and Pazstor. I hope Cooper can stay healthy (finally) and fulfil the promise of his draft status.

All in all, given the lack of top end talent at OT this draft, I'd be willing to see what we have in Coleman and maybe taking someline like Wheeler (S.Cal), Skipper (Ark.), McDermott (UCLA) or Davenport (Bucknell) later on.

I DVR'd the game, but listened to it on the radio. It sounded like Erving not only generally held his own, but had some really good, key blocks.

When I got home i just skipped the 1,2, and 4th quarters. One area I'd like to see Erving improve is taking on the LBers. One play comes to mind where Erving was run blocking and was moving toward Burfict to block him. I don't know if he misjudged Burfict, or expected Burfict to come to him, but Erving just pitched forward head first doing his best Joe Haden impression and took his legs out.

My impression of him on that play was that he panicked. Not that he was afraid, but that he found himself in a no man's land during the play and knew he had to do something. He was supposed to block the LB, but the LB wasn't quite where he was supposed to be.

When we talk about the "speed of the game" it's usually is centered around skill players who see just how much bigger and faster the NFL is.. or with QB's and their ability to mentally process as the play evolves. I think Erving has difficulty in the mental part. I don't think he's stupid. I just think that he has a hard time adapting as the play evolves. Throughout much of the season we've seen so many times where in pass protection he gets sucked in making a double team on a Dlineman that the guard is clearly handling. Instead of breaking off and staying home, these gaps got created that LBers were busting through.

I have to say though I think I may be back to neutral on Erving. The last few weeks I've been wondering if there was even another position that he could play in order to justify keeping next year.

Overall a real nice day by the O line this past weekend. It's crazy to see that with simple execution someone like Crow can go over 100yrds on 10 carries.