DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum If we switch to a base 4-3

Because Allen is more versatile and can play inside next to Shelton on passing downs - he can also be an edge rusher from the outside.

I've read multiple scouting reports saying that there is only a slight difference in ability between Allen and Garret ... they all have Garret as #1 - but they mostly mention Allen's ability to move anywhere along the line making him as attractive a prospect as Garret.

http://draftbreakdown.com/video/jonathan-allen-vs-florida-2016/

Seems to consistently get push and penetration even with double teams, uses his hands well, seems to disengage well. Against FL he played LE RE and in the middle.

I don't think Orchard is big enough to play DE except exclusively to rush the passer. I haven't checked out how big he is but to me he's not going to be strong enough or fast enough to play their as an every down 4-3 DE.

Orchard listed as 6'4" and 255 lbs

I disagree on Allen and Garrett. I think Allen was the better fit for a 3-4 DE. Now in a 4 man front, it's Garrett all day long.

W/Garrett we could go: Garrett/Meder/Shelton/Bryant (or Ogbah)

W/Allen we could go: Ogbah/Allen/Shelton/Bryant but, move Allen around on plays.

Assuming we keep Bryant, or course. But, even if we don't we still have Orchard, Nassib and Cooper to play with.

Throw in Collins/Kirksey/Davis and you have a pretty sweet front 7.

Hooker or Adams (if either are there) at 12 would round out the first day of the draft nicely.

Garrett/Bryant/Shelton/Ogbah

When Garrett/Ogbah need a breather.. insert Nassib.

That's a potentially great front 4.

Do we know anything about Des' rehab? Is he on track to return 100%?

I am sure I read somewhere that he will be ready - how that translates when he steps on the field is a different question.

I agree - on paper that front 4 looks good and we have some depth.

Bryant is a lot bigger than I remember he is listed as....6'6, 310lbs!

The dude literally tore a door off of a door trying to get in "his" house.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...broke-home.html

Are you guys thinking of armonty? Des has always been a monster. People forget how great he was with Oakland in a 43 and he was our DMVP last year. There was also an article a week ago saying he was clearedescribing so he's already healthy. Des will be our other DT and like I've already said a few times the difference between Des and Allen is a lot less than orchard to Myles. We need a RE

No, I wasn't thinking of Armonty. I think the year off just made me forget how big he actually is. It will be good to get him back out there. If we are going to compare him to Allen he does have his age as a negative. But, he should hopefully have at least 3 more good years in the tank.

It's funny because when I first heard of Williams being the DC, I thought that would eliminate Garrett from consideration. Now...the more I learn...I'm leaning towards Garrett again. Fortunately, I don't meet with Sashi & Hue until March so there is plenty of time.

In the end, we don't have anyone like Garrett...Bryant, Cooper, and Shelton are not really like Allen...but are much closer to being what we "need" at DT. Add Garrett...get Bryant back...and with Ogbah on the other side and Nassib at first backup, this front 7 gets "better" on paper with just ONE draft pick.

I think I'm reading that Cooper and Bryant are better suited for the 4-3 and Meder becomes a backup DT who could get upgraded. (As much as I hate that...I like the guy.)

I think I am in the same boat - I don't know if Garret will truly be elite - but I think he has the potential, so I would rather take that chance with him, even if it means he doesn't have the flex ability to play inside.

One thing we will definitely need in a 4-3 base is a stud MIKE.

I wasn't a fan of firing Horton. However, I am thrilled that we are switching to a 4-3 base. No more drafting DE's trying to turn them into linebackers. It should be much easier to find players that fit our new scheme. Our new DC has a ton of experience. Here's hoping he can turn this D around! We shall see....

These days I don't think you necessarily have to have a stud mike. You need 2 stud lb whether it's Mike Sam or will and we already have 2 studs. If we use assets to aquire another one of them will ride the pine most of the time. I think that would be wasteful.

I really don't see the point of Allen in a 4-3. We need an edge rusher now more than ever.

43 Defense:

RDE-Miles Garrett................................RDE-Ogbah
DT-Shelton.........................................DT-Shelton
DT-Paea/Desmond Bryant.....................DT-Jonathan Allen
DE-Ogbah...........................................LDE-Nassib/Cam Johnson

There are a lot of combinations based on Gregg history.
With some teams sometimes he went with a bigger LDE. Heck he could even use Allen at LDE.

Ogbah, himself, is a pretty big LDE.

Honest question here

Why wouldn't you put Allen next to Ogbah on passing downs?
Wouldn't that make it really hard to double team both players?

You could roll away from both rather than in to one?

Interesting point.

What if you blitzed the OB or SS or CB from the opposite side?

Way before your time ; But I want a Jack Lambert !!!!!

You could do that, but you probably couldn't do it all day long.

I just think it best to have bookend ends. It provides more balance to your D. You kind of trap the QB in the pocket.

Now that it looks like we will play a 4-3 base D, I fully expect Garrett to be the pick. I was liking Allen more and more thinking we would still be a 3-4 team. He has 3-4 DE written all over him. In a 4-3, more a tackle. If Ogbagh can take another step, Garrett and he can be a pretty fearsome group teams will have to gameplan and take into account.

A rotation of Garrett, Ogbagh, and Nassib outside, big Danny, Meder, and Bryant on the inside....I think that is pretty darn good.

Going to a 4-3 means we will probably keep at least 8 D line players, so we will probably draft a player or two this year. Maybe they work out as well.

Garrett, please.

You could. Like I said there are a bunch of combinations.
I'm not sure if there is a difference in where players that get double teamed line up *shrugs*

Allen is the ideal 3-tech DT interior disruptor/penetrator in a 43 defense. He's a better fit at that spot then in a 34.

I don't think the potential scheme change favors either prospect as both fit.

You can but you'd also like some balance. Loading too much pass rush to one side makes it easier for the offense to focus on it.

While both fit it's more about what we need now. I've said many time allen, even though he played in a 34, shows the ideal skillset for a 3 tech.

But as my coach used to say we only need 2 "beefs"(300lber) as opposed to 3 now. I posted the projected depth chart and we are very deep and proven at NT and 3 tech. We aren't deep or proven at DE at all. Especially RE imo.

So if other posters mean what I mean when I say now that garrett fits better maybe this best sums it up. It's not about the specific prospect it's that we now need a RE more than 3 tech. In a 34 5 Tech and ROLB were about even need wise especially with Collins. Frankly as much as I love both prospects I'm still of the opinion there isn't much gap between them and Barnett. I would love to trade down for hooker and take Barnett at 12. People are under rating him big time.

Reading this again....the Browns having 4 lineman only 40% the time seems off because I recall pff saying they were in nickel around 70%.

For me I don't really view the defense as being deep at the nose tackle or the 3-technique positions. Shelton is a bonafide NT but outside of that I can't really view the other DL guys as proven. I think moving from a 34 defense to a 4-3 defense gives the tweener olb-de players a home at DE and it gives us a bunch of them. In that respect I think the DE and DT quality on the team has talent at the top (Shelton/Ogbah) of the depth chart then a mix of question marks and potential after (Nassib, Johnson, Holmes, Paea, Desmond Bryant, Cooper)

1 year has made a lot of people forget Des was our best defender in 2014. I get that he's getting older and coming back from injury but he'll have 12 months or so for recovery and it wasn't lower body. He should be fine.

You can't really have pro bowlers as depth but you can't tell me cooper, Paea, Meder, wright and Stample at DT isnt deeper and more established than nassib, Holmes and maybe cam(might stay at Sam). You never hold more than 5 to 6 DT, we already have 6, will likely select at least 1, and usually sub out for an extra DE on passing downs. I don't see that overwhelming need at DT that you do. Am i missing something? I'll take an elite talent, sure, but with des we can and should focus elsewhere.

The past 2 years Mark Barron has been playing will for Williams. What's everyone's thoughts on us doing the same thing? There's a certain player up north who's familiar with that role...

Williams defense was at it's best when he had a big, fast, playmaking safety deep in the secondary. I would assume that Hooker would fit that better than Peppers. Or Adams, I think he'd fit Williams the best.

Ultimately, I think safety will be a highly addressed spot in the draft. Mainly because there is a ton of talent at the position.

You are correct but I'm not referring to the actual safety position. It's a current trend in some of the better defenses to run 3 safety looks with the better run defender taking place of a will linebacker. Mark barron and Deone Bucannon are the best examples of this. They drop in zones and man tight ends better than lbs but excel at dodging blocks and shutting down the run game faster than lbs. As long as they don't get blocked it works really well. So I wonder if Williams will look to do that here. Peppers would fit that role well I think and I suspect hoover and adams to be long gone come #12.

The guy that Tweeted these statistics works for Pro Football Focus.

I recall the same guy on cleveland browns daily saying the Browns were nickel upwards of 60% of the time. Just seems off somewhere...

You could be right, just regurgitating what I read online.