DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft Myles Garrett Discussion

No, that is not what I'm saying. I AM saying that when people make things up, don't get offended if I challenge the fabrication. Plain and simple.

Stuff here about MG's attitude and effort.
Pluto on Garrett:

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf...bileshort_index

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about Myles Garrett hype -- Terry Pluto



ABOUT MYLES GARRETT


I wanted to know why so many draft experts have Myles Garrett as the No. 1 pick.


ESPN's Mel Kiper writes: "Garrett....clearly the No. 1 player in this draft class and would be an immediate help at a position where having an elite player on a rookie contract is like stealing."


ESPN's Todd McShay writes: "Garrett is the best pure pass rusher in the 2017 draft. He played through an ankle injury for much of this season and still finished tied for sixth in the SEC with 15 tackles for loss. He has a lethal combination of first-step quickness, bend power and hand-to-hand combat skills."


NFL.com's Daniel Jeremiah writes: "Overall, this is an elite talent with all-pro potential."


I called Dane Brugler (CBSsports.com). He is one of my favorite draft analysts, a product of Mount Union who comes from Warren, Ohio.


"I've had Garrett as my No. 1 prospect from the moment the 2016 draft ended, and it's never changed," he said. "He is the best talent in the draft."


I watched parts of a few games with Garrett. I was not overwhelmed by the 6-foot-5, 270-pound defensive end from Texas A&M.


Garrett had 8.5 sacks, but 4.5 were against Texas-San Antonio, hardly a football power.


THE BOSA COMPARISON


"Joey Bosa had only five sacks in his junior season at Ohio State," said Brugler. "But if you studied him on tape, you could see talent. He was being double-teamed, sometimes tripled-teamed. Teams often ran away from him."


Brugler's point was Garrett received the same star treatment from opponents in 2016 as Bosa did in 2015. Teams ran plays in the opposite direction from where he lined up. They set up special pass protections.


Bosa had 21 sacks in his first two seasons at OSU. It dropped to 5.0 sacks in 2015 for the Buckeyes.


As a rookie, Bosa had 10.5 sacks in 12 games for the Chargers -- and that came after missing virtually all of training camp in a contract dispute.


"Over the last three years, only Tennessee's Derek Barnett had more sacks (33) than Garrett (31)," said Brugler. "You can't just go on sack numbers from last year. He played injured for about half the season."


Garrett suffered a high ankle sprain in a Sept. 24 game against Arkansas. He sat out the next week against South Carolina.


Garrett played two games after that -- against Tennessee and Alabama.


"You could see he was only about 75 percent," said Brugler. "He played pretty well against Alabama (7 tackles, 3.5 tackles for loss), but you also could see he wasn't at his best."


Garrett sat out two more games after the 33-14 loss to Alabama. He returned for the final three games of the season.


In 2015, he played the final six games with his hand wrapped up because of thumb and wrist injuries. He had surgery after that season.


While Garrett has had some injury issues, he also has shown the willingness to play hurt.


THE CLOWNEY COMPARISON


In 2014, Jadeveon Clowney was the No. 1 pick in the draft by Houston.


Clowney was a defensive end at South Carolina. In his first two seasons, he had 21 sacks.


As a junior, Clowney had only 3.0 sacks. He still impressed scouts with his athleticism.


"Clowney was probably more gifted than Garrett," said Brugler, "but in terms of health and other things, I like Garrett better."


Most scouts believe Garrett has a stronger work ethic and better attitude than Clowney displayed at the same stages of their careers.


Clowney played only four games as a rookie for the Texans, suffered a major knee injury and had surgery.


In 2015, he played but was still not 100 percent physically.


In 2016, he had 6.0 sacks and was named to the Pro Bowl and 2nd team All-Pro. So it took three years for Clowney to begin to fulfill his promise. Profootballfocus rated Clowney as "one of the game's best against the run." He was rated No. 3 overall, behind Von Miller and Michael Bennett.


GARRETT & ANALYTICS


Profootballfocus is the easiest analytics site to access.


They rate Garrett as the top player in the draft.


They have data such as Garrett beating blocks to pressure the quarterback 50 times this season. The impressive part is he did it 20 times to the outside, 20 times to the inside and "10 times with a bull rush."


That shows a variety of moves.


The site also ranked him No. 3 among edge defenders against the run, an improvement over his first two seasons.


"He's a fit for any scheme," wrote Steve Palazzolo. "(He's) perfect for a Browns team that features one of the worst pass rushes in the NFL."


ABOUT THE BROWNS


1. Brugler said Alabama Coach Nick Saban "absolutely gushes about Jonathan Allen." He is the 6-foot-3, 290-pound defensive lineman for the Tide who just won the Lombardi Trophy. Brugler rates Allen as a "top five player." Saban said Allen can play in the middle of the line, or as a defensive end.


2. Like most draft experts, Brugler prefers Garrett. Very few draft experts take Garrett's video about wanting to play for Dallas as a red-flag. Bruger said Garrett "is a good kid, a worker, people really like his character."


3. Brugler said the obvious about quarterback being the most important position. He believes pass rusher is right behind quarterback. That's why he ranks Garrett so highly for the Browns and anyone else.


4. I'm still not sure about Garrett. The injury issue bothers me, although it does explain the drop in production. I also was horribly wrong about Bosa as a pro, as I recently confessed in a story.


5. Nick Foles appears headed to free agency. He was a backup to Alex Smith in Kansas City. He played two games, completing 36-of-55 passes, 3 TDs and zero interceptions. He did a decent job as a "game manager," the conservative style favored by the Chiefs.


6. Foles has had a career with some nice high spots such as his 2013 season with 27 TDs vs. 2 interceptions. That was in the hurry-up Chip Kelly offense in Philadelphia.


7. Since 2013, he is 11-9 as a starter, 23 TDs vs. 20 interceptions. He struggled with the Rams in 2015, 4-7 as a starter. It's hard to get very excited about him, but he will have several teams interested. There are so few even mediocre quarterbacks available as free agents.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index...ry_ta_102.html

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you went out of your way before trying to say that you were not talking about getting rid of the current GM. In fact you would ignore answering the question "Will this football guy that you bring in have control of the 53 man roster?" when asked.

So which is it Mac?

Just watched two games from 2015, Alabama and Miss. St., that tape IMO is better then what I've watched from this year. This years UCLA tape was good. Now I have gone on here saying that I've seen Garrett take plays off and get blocked by one guy but I did not see that in that 2015 tape. Now I have questions s to why. Maybe it was the ankle sprain. I don't know the answer. But the 2015 is better. Still looking for the answers.

I didn't mean for it to cover over that way. I watched a lot of Bama football. Have for many years. I understand he brings pressure.

I hope this article clears-up some of the misinformation a handful of posters have been feeding us.

We might need a run stuffer, but most importantly we need someone to be able to set the edge. Garrett offers that and Allen just can't. If we were in the 3-4, we'd be having the exact opposite argument.

Isn't that the weakest part of Garrett's game? Stopping the run? I thought I had read that after his sophomore year that was the nock on him but that he made strides this year. Allen can play base DE, It's not where I'd play him all the time, but he played it at Alabama, along with 3 technique, 5 technique, NT, and RDE.

Almost every person who evaluates players for a living have stated that Garrett improved his run defense significantly this past year.

Oh, and I figured you would ignore that article. Doesn't quite fit the agenda, does it?

Said he improved right there in my post, guess you missed it. Who's sating what for who's agenda????

Compared to Garrett's first step, everything is a "weak part", but that doesn't mean it's a weakness. He isn't the greatest in the run game, but it's not a weakness. Fact is, I don't know how great he is at run defense. A lot of teams quit running to his side this year.

Allen played 3-4 DE. When they went nickel, Williams or someone else would slide to that end spot and kick him inside. I think he could play DE in a 4-3, but not as good as Garrett.

Did you read the article by Pluto and what are your thoughts about it?

Never said weakness, said weakest part.

Alabama normally does play the 3-4 but this year they did play 4-3 quite a bit, and Allen played all up and down it.

Here's a couple reports that say that.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26410...safest-prospect

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2017jallen.php

Yes, I did read it. And that's Bruger's take on the guy. I did go back and watch some tape from his 2015 season and I didn't see the same issues that I saw from this years tape and I am wondering why, if the ankle bothered him more then was said. I said that in an earlier post. But that now could bring up some durability concerns if it was indeed the ankle. Love a guy that plays through an injury unless it isn't helping the team, making it a bit of a double edged sword. At the beginning of the article Pluto himself had some of the same concerns I did, but deferred to Bruger.

Sorry CHsDawg that last post sounded a bit condescending,I didn't mean for it to come across that way, was just trying to provide info.

Pluto also quoted Kiper, Jeremiah, and McShay.

Don't worry. I'm not so thin skinned to take every disagreement as a personal slight. Especially when I'm wrong and you're right. Although I will say that the 4-3 that Bama played with, when Allen lined up as an end, was geared more towards stopping the run. I have no doubt in his ability to play as an end in the 4-3, but I think he'd probably be better as a 3T or 3-4 DE. Especially when compared to Garrett at that position. Allen is really so good though. You're honestly preaching to the choir. When we were still looking to run a 3-4 base, I thought he was the sure fire pick, but since we've changed to the 4-3, we need a little bit different skill set in our ends.

Yea, I don't like Kiper or McShay, I know they get paid to do what they do, but they seem to be wrong almost as much as they're right. Jeremiah much better, but I think he doesn't always say the negatives about a kid. Don't know why but a lot of the analysts do that. Even Mayock at times, but he lists the concerns more often then any of the others. And I don't follow what the analysts on TV just for that reason. I have a few sites I look at that supply full game tapes, along with their tape analysis on players, and list the pros and cons for players. From what I've seen over the last 7-8 years they've had a good track record.

Sorry. I'll repost

I completely agree, It was geared that way. Allen was asked to do a lot of read and react out of it and wasn't asked to get up the field and get after the QB from there. So Its hard to see what he really could do. Not that his get off would be even near what Garrett's is. Loved watching him read pass and then throw the tackle aside like he's a rag doll. The truth is My question marks on Garrett are very minor ones and I'll hope whichever player we pick turns out to be right.

Yep. Allen is a great prospect top down. Has all the check marks and is a fantastic individual. He's honestly like no player in recent memory. No real great equivalent to him. His ability to just toss linemen off of him, reminds me a lot more of Suh than Donald. Although I get both comparisons. I certainly don't think we can do wrong in drafting one or the other.

Dean, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just want to point something out. You said run defense is the weakest part of Garrett's game, and that may well be true. You later answered an argument by responding that Pluto's article reflected Bugler's opinion. That said, the following is cut and pasted from Pluto's article;

"Profootballfocus is the easiest analytics site to access. They rate Garrett as the top player in the draft. They have data such as Garrett beating blocks to pressure the quarterback 50 times this season. The impressive part is he did it 20 times to the outside, 20 times to the inside and "10 times with a bull rush."

The site also ranked him No. 3 among edge defenders against the run, an improvement over his first two seasons."

My point is that it wasn't Bugler saying that, it was ProFootballFocus saying they ranked him #3 vs the run. If the weakest part of his game is still 3rd best in college football, I'd say it's not as much of a weakness as you suggest.

Sorry, I don't think so. I think they get it right way more often than not.

jc

Can we just stop trying to change each other's opinions?

Everyone is pretty much set in their ways by now, about Garrett, Jimmy G, not much else is ganna come out any time soon for us to discuss.

I'm not telling anyone not to post their opinions. But if two people are clearly differing. What's the point of going back and forth for the next two months? Saying the same things over and over?

March 9th can't come soon enough.

Since we should stop posting according to you, I just wanna say: If we don't draft Myles Garrett I will be totally miffed.

I don't the "safe" pick, I want the best player picked.
Do you remember this guy? He was the "safest" pick of the draft also.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/130376-meet-aaron-curry-the-safest-pick-in-the-draft

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2009-02-23-aaron-curry_N.htm

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/08/28/aaron-curry-retires/

I remember him. I wanted to draft him.
Anyway. Not relevant to Garrett.

Well, look at it this way, they now have experience.

mac, I commend you. You will not waiver one bit on this agenda. Kudos sticking to your principal.

I 100% disagree. I mean that respectfully.

There are thousands of football guys out there. There isn't a one who can consistently pick winners time and time again. Name the GMs who retired and not fired? I'll bet the list is small. Successful teams developed systems and look for players who meet their system's agenda.

Key building a winner is structure. It starts from the front office all the way down. Hire coaches that fit and players that match the plan avoids this constant influx.

Change in personal should not cause major disruption. Otherwise, teams can never hire new blood for fear they leave for a promotion elsewhere. Good teams don't rebuild when coordinators and player personal leave.

All I ask is study who Sashi brings to the team. Look at how the team played last year. Watch who they add this year. Give Sashi this year before judging as incompetent. I believe you will be pleasantly surprised.

So now it's not enough experience.

Experience in picking football players is overrated. I am not diminishing the ability. I am simply saying it isn't something that takes years to learn. A person doesn't have to start out as a scouting intern and spend years combing through smelly high school and college lockers to find talented football players.

Andrew Berry spent 7 years with the Colts in various scouting roles. Is that enough experience? Or does a person need 10 years? 15? Hue has lots of experience, as does Williams and other coaches. DePodesta wasn't involved in last years draft. He has a lot of experience in setting strategy in how to attack a draft. It doesn't matter it was a different sport, the strategy is probably very much the same. If a draft is deep in quality shortstops or OT's, it helps you set your strategy.

Mac our scouting department is the largest and most experienced in the entire NFL. So please do your homework or go troll elsewhere

I agree with you Bone. It really does amaze me how badly this team has drafted over the last 30 or so years. We have hit on a player here or there but mostly swings and misses, and by about 8 or 9 different regimes. The first 2 rounds has been abysmal especially with all the talent we passed up on. I'm not stating anything we all don't already know I just hope this regime finally get's it right. We're due.