DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum JG Chapter 7 ...

I want to come out of this offseason with Garrett and JG.

So no, I wouldn't give up #1.

But beyond #1? Meh.

We could give up #12, 3 2nd rounders, and a 4th, 5th, and 6th...

And we'd STILL have TWO FULL SET OF DRAFT PICKS.....

Originally Posted By: Dave

*Let's eat Grandma.

*Let's eat, Grandma.

Grandma cares.

What can I say? That was good!

OK, ok ok!!

Browns should forfeit all of their early draft picks because nobody on earth flippin, freakin, deserves it!

to enter the NFL, until the start of the 3rd round!
x 20

Instead of spinning crazy
Why don't you tell us what ANY of these QB draft picks have done to deserve The #1 pick?

k, it was an attempt, to change minds on the perceived preciousness of the value of a hypothetical, inanimate "pick" which as a commodity, has value, only in that it represents the addition/contract rights of an eventual player.

But, (like golem hoarding a ring in the book "the hobbit") if people think the "pick" is too precious, precious, then nobody on earth is going to measure up.

So, if re-read my previous^^, take away 1/2 of the sarcasm, and focus on the nobody on earth,
and I already answered.
Nobodys' going to meet the perceived value, because that picks values' perception is skewed.

is what is skewed. (Teams get one every year, they're noting till you use them.)

k, it was an attempt, to change minds on the perceived preciousness of the value of a hypothetical, inanimate "pick" which as a commodity, has value, only in that it represents the addition/contract rights of an eventual player.

After trying to read that, lets just say good luck to you and GO BROWNS!

As of today I don't want Jimmy Garoppolo on the Browns in any form.
I think RG3 gave you greater than or equal to chance to win games as Jimmy Garopollo.
Same, I think Brock Osweiler gives you greater than or equalt to chance.
Same with Colin Caepernick,

Jimmy Garopollo is, "just another guy".

If the Browns can't "stick" with the last guy, (RG3) (and by "stick" I mean give me 3+ years of on field, Browns uniform, trying , with this guy)... then how are they going to "stick" with the next guy, Jimmy Garopollo?

Personally, I want them to get one of the rookies,
Deshaun,
Trubisky,
or somebody

And NObody deserves it, (so what!) and even if the guy they get, stinks up the field, I want to see the Browns keep developing HIM AND

Cody Kessler, (as a starting backup), if for no other reason, because the team doesn't "stick" with anybody!

And I feel if they do stick with someone they might find something and be in a better position afterwards than they realized.

""" There are only bad options,
This is the best bad option by far. """ from the movie Argo.

jc...

I think some of you just have no clue what a real QB looks like anymore. It's just a symptom of our our misery that they all start to look the the same crapola and you have lost your ability to differentiate. I am not mad or anything at any of you.. I hope none are mad at me. I mean we all love the Browns.

Still for anyone to compare Jimmy G. to that idiot Brock means you simply don't have a clue to what you're talking about. If you have watched videos of Deshuan, Kiz, and Trub and you think they are the same skill level as Jimmy G. then you either haven't watched actual game footage OR your talking from your arse because you DON"T know what you're looking for when you watch the video. Webb is not that great either.

RG3's problem is that he was just mentally TOO SLOW. Hue is spot on when he says he looks for a QB that can process information VERY FAST. We gave RG3 a shot and he proved he was made from glass and processed things too slow. Now we have moved on. No harm and no foul IMHO. Brock is better at least in terms of durability.

There are just two QBs worth drafting in this draft and that is Trub and Pat. NEITHER or which are the same skill level as Jimmy G. had in college much less in the pros. I would be happy to draft either of these two guys though. Trub would start sooner than Pat but I think with Hue that Pat could evolve into a much better QB. That means he "could" not a guarantee. I don't know if Hue's job would survive long enough for either of them to get built up enough to be effective starters.

Josh Dobbs could be my sleeper QB. I think he could be a decent QB for a later round pick.

I have not watched Brad Kaaya or Nate Peterman yet so I have no opinions of them so far.

Trub is the only QB I would consider taking in the first round and it would not be a high first rounder at that.

Hard to even comment on this post.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion but this so far off base I really don't know where to begin.
=================================================

"As of today I don't want Jimmy Garoppolo on the Browns in any form.
I think RG3 gave you greater than or equal to chance to win games as Jimmy Garopollo.
Same, I think Brock Osweiler gives you greater than or equalt to chance.
Same with Colin Caepernick,"
===================================

What?

Do you see any teams lining up to get the guys you mentioned? In a league dying to find quarterbacks. Any team showing any interest Osweiler, Caepernick, or Griffin?

You would be standing alone. Think about it.

If any of these guys showed they could play one of teams they have been on would have given them more time.

But shame it is a performance based league.

Cody is at best a career back-up. He may get better but he will never be a top level player.

If you could make a case for the guys you picked; it should be exceptional.

I also never said I wouldn't trade for him.

No, but you said this:



There are more comments if you want me to bring them up?

You asked me to stop responding to you and I haven't since then. However, if you wanna start........I will gladly reciprocate.

Are you saying Garoppolo is a franchise QB? He is definitely not (at this very moment). He might be at some point in the future (some may even say he is likely to be one), but as of right now he is an unknown. When I said [the above quote] I said, "If a QB is being traded, then no one knows for sure. QBs that are franchise guys don't get traded."

If a person thinks they know that Garoppolo is a franchise QB, then they are misleading themselves. Knowing something and thinking something may happen are not the same thing.

I searched for every post I have ever made, in the past year, that contains the word "Garoppolo" in it, I never said we shouldn't trade for him. I said things like:



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...mor#Post1212668



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...mor#Post1220328



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...t-2#Post1221185



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...t-2#Post1222329



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ree#Post1229437



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...our#Post1234087

You said:



Can you please show me the comments in which I said I would not trade for Garoppolo? Because I just looked at every single post where I mentioned the player's name (there were 144 of them) and I never saw one.

I have said it before, and i'll say it now:

Mitchell Trubisky is our best shot at a developing a franchise QB

However, the Browns will find some way to screw it up (taking Garrett). Why do i say this?

Because its doubtful Trubisky gets out of the Top 5. Shanahan in SF loves the kid, and word out of San Fran is he is a 49er if we don't take him(even if they do have Hoyer) so that will be that.

I fully expect us to take Garrett, and to go into next season with no clear cut QB, and i expect another losing season, and Jackson and Co being gone because of how the Browns ownership does things...no patience.

Trubisky physically has everything you would want in a franchise QB, the kid has all kinds of potential, and our owner just might be willing to be patient if we can get 7 or so wins next year, but that won't happen without a QB

Sometimes the "Best choice"(Garrett) isn't always the best choice for you and your situation(The Browns current situation). If we even had average Qb play last year we win 8 games...you can't win without a QB, and if there is even any belief at all in Jackson that one of these Qb is the guy, you take him...#1 #12, who cares what draft pundits think and who has who graded where...doesn't matter,,, when you don't have a QB that value goes up significantly over everything else.

I KNOW taking Trubisky is the 1st step to fully turning things around here, but just like I wanted Rothlisberger I fully expect our front office to gaffe and take Garrett or someone else, and the losing will continue. We simply can't get out of our own way.

I don't see the value in DE #1 overall, the last DE that was worth #1 overlal in the draft was Bruce Smith back in 1985. Garrett is no Bruce Smith...in talent comparing Smith and Garrett...Smith would be rated like a 95 out of 10 possible points...the guys was an insane talent...the only other DE that really come close to him is Ray Nitschke, Reggie White, Chris Dolemann,Charles Haley,Jack Youngblood, Joe Greene. Garrett is NOT that type talent compared to those guys...you could say maybe Jared Allen is close...maybe but that's really it in the modern NFL for DE.

This fixation on Garrett is a mistake, a big one. Clowney has been a bust he has missed 15 of his first 32 games due to injury and one Pro Bowl doesn't change that fact...anyone want to bet he misses most of the upcoming season hurt somehow?

No, I am saying that people aren't ridiculous for saying he is worth two firsts or two seconds because none of really know what he is worth. The market value for Jimmy G will be set by New England their potential trade partners.

Anyone pretending to know what that value is at this point in time is only doing just that---pretending.

The last time I heard someone going on so fervently that there was only ONE QB that could save the Browns and we HAD to take him and any other pick was going to be the Browns blowing it again ..... Hammer on 850 a.m. ..... about Manziel.

To me, the linchpin of this view point is a belief that Haslam is a knee-jerk owner with no patience. He will fire everyone if he doesn't see instant results and the only measure of results is wins.

Of course, if you don't look below the surface, his actions to date seem to support that view. What follows is my assessment of what happened (and I grant that I have no more insight than anyone else, it's just how I saw things unfold.)

He bought the team in 2012 with Shurmer and Heckert. Everyone expected him to replace them. He gave them a year, but the writing was on the wall from the start. He then went full court press on Chip Kelly, and in the process made his first big mistake. He was so confident that he would win Kelly over, he didn't really have a backup plan. When he failed to get Kelly, the organization was behind the competition in organizing and executing a real HC search, and they ended up settling for Chud. He (and Banner/Lombardi) was never happy with that decision and made a decision early to move on from Chud at the end of the first year...a do-over.

In the new search, things got ugly. Banner wanted his guy (Gase or Quinn if I recall) and Lombardi wanted his guy (McDaniels) and the in-fighting got so bad Haslam canned them both and picked Pettine himself. Does anyone here think that was a good choice?

Again, my belief is that early in that 2nd year under Pettine, Jimmy and Sashi started a conversation. That conversation instilled in Jimmy a confidence that the approach Sashi was suggesting would be the best way to build a long-term winner. It involved taking a different strategy than the team had previously employed, and would involve a couple of painful years to get started. But I believe that despite the miserable 2016, it was expected. And Jimmy is encouraged by 1) the team is all-in on Hue, and 2) the plan so far is going as expected.

I do not believe that another losing season is going to make Jimmy pull the plug. I believe he was expecting a couple of lean years to get the plan Sashi laid out fully into motion. The goal is long-term success. I don't see instant transformation into a winner as necessary for Hue and Sashi's continued employment.

The sad part about this and it's something we all know is that we had our choice of 4 qb's when we were about to make that 22nd pick and we chose the wrong one. We could have already had JG, DC or TB and we wouldn't have to be going through all of this. I know it doesn't do any good to bring this up but I think of it every so often. We had our chance and blew it and that isn't the only time.

If anything.

Stick with what we got for 4 years.

Just so it's not impossible to hire anyone good if they don't work out.

Nice deflection. Where are the posts where I said I didn't want to trade for Garoppolo?

I am not deflecting a thing. I told you before. I didn't like how you acted like posters were ridiculous for saying Jimmy G was worth this or that.

Fact is, none of us know what his value is. Not even you.

You said that with regards to me not wanting to trade for Garoppolo. I provided much evidence to the contrary. Where are the comments? It seems like you are making things up to make a poster look bad.

Of course I don't know what Garoppolo's value is, no one does. Just like no one knows how good he is/will be. I am posting my opinion on a message board, I know nothing and neither does anyone else.

Where are those comments that said I didn't want to trade for Garoppolo? Did you make that up or did you just think I was someone else? Just want to clear this up.

I am not trying to make you look bad. I have told you I didn't like how you pretended to know the value of a player and ridiculed other poster's opinions. You don't want to accept that. Okay...........so what:

But, here are a couple of the comments that upset me:







Now, I am done w/this conversation.

Never thought of this angle before .... Any chance Hue coveted JG when he came out?? And now he has a chance to get him and he's don't nothing in the NFL to suggest he isn't 'the guy' ??

I am apologize to the whole board for bickering with Versatile Dog. I usually ignore him, but Vambo quoted something he said about me in a post and I saw it. I will go back to ignoring him and hopefully the bickering will stop.

Jimmy Garoppolo - QB - Patriots

The Cleveland Plain Dealer considers the Browns unlikely to trade the No. 1 overall pick for Jimmy Garoppolo.

We would certainly hope so. A "league source" speculates New England is still seeking at least two first-rounders. Even with their nearly unprecedented draft resources, we're guessing the Browns would pass on that, as well. Garoppolo is a former second-rounder who simply hasn't put enough on film to command that kind of draft haul. He's also no spring chicken, turning 26 in November.

Related: Browns

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer Mar 20 - 2:53 PM

I know Jimmy G. is a franchise QB because he has the right skill set. He also has the right mental toughness and discipline. He has great leadership and moral character. You will never find a better QB than him to play for the Browns.

It's not a question of IF he turns into a franchise QB but who he will be a franchise QB for. I think it's very likely he ends Tom's career in NE earlier than he will want to.

You keep saying no one knows, but I have been saying for years that I DO know. I haven't been wrong on a qb in the past 5 years. Jimmy G. will end up being the best QB of his draft class and the QB we passed on that haunts us forever.

Weeden was 28 when we drafted him.

What's your definition of a franchise QB ?

Was Teddy Bridgewater a FQB? Is Andy Dalton? Flaco? Cutler when he went to the Bears? Tannerhill?

And when you say you "Know" ... you mean you "think" and that based on past evaluations you are normally correct. I don't know who you have liked and championed in the last 5 years - but if you can hit every year while so many teams swing and miss - you need to be in the NFL and in a FO somewhere. That's a pretty impressive talent. I know I am not that smart. I want JG but I only hope he is the answer.

This is straight up crazy.

(IMO) Jimmy G is better than all of those QBs.

Better than Dalton and Flacco? Flacco won a superbowl..... Dalton doesn't get the credit he deserves, he's played pretty well in Cincy since he's started.

Jimmy G has like two regular season starts........

I like Jimmy's potential, but to put him up with those guys is a bit of the "Favorite player is the team's backup" type of thing.

Flacco had one solid stretch of 4-5 games in his career. And he banked good money on it after winning a SB.

He's also "the best possible version" of Derek Anderson.

Dalton is solid. Wouldn't be as good without AJ Green. Also shrinks when it matters.

I don't care how much JG has played. That has literally nothing to do with how good I think he is.

Flaco puzzles me. But overall I think he hasn't been consistent enough to be a franchise QB. He's had too many bad games and now bad year. Dalton plays like a franchise QB in the regular season then falls on his face when it counts. I think the Bengals are never going to win it all with him as their QB.

To me JG better be at least as good as any of those QBs in order to consider giving up a 1 and a 2. . . Or you have to believe he will be. I would NOT give up #12 and a 2 next year for any of those active QBs. Even though they might be better than anything we've had since 99

Fair enough. But it's quite a bold statement to make with a very small sample size to make your decision from. I mean, Flacco has played a full 8 of his last 9 seasons. Dalton a full 5 out of his last 6.

That right there is impressive. Doing that on teams that make the playoffs consistently.



I'm excited about the idea of Jimmy G. I'd love to trade for him. Number 12 pick too. I'd prefer him over any rookie.

But if I had to gamble on him proving himself to be a better QB than either of those two, I just don't think I'd do it. QBs are hard to find. And a small sample size can show itself to be risky. Look at Brock Osweiller

I have already posted that info many times over. My opinions on QBs over the years have always been posted here so it's not like I hide who I say will make it and who won't. I am not perfect but I am a good 75% to 80% right. I have been picking QBs a lot better than most of the NFL teams by a long shot. Why? Because what works always works. That's why you look at skill sets first for ANY position. ALL players have a degree of talent but have they been trained properly and have the skills needed to play well with those talents? Do they have the right mindset to keep improving their whole career. Do they have good moral character to stay out of trouble and on the field. This is not rocket science. This is the Paul Brown philosophy. Bill Belichick has open stated many times he worships paul Brown and uses what he learned from him.

What makes players and teams great has not changed at all in the past 70 years. The only thing that has changed is what skill sets they need to operate in the current NFL systems. Many of you are aware of SOME of these skill sets and NONE of us know them for all the positions. I know the ones for QB and LT. I don't claim to know ANY other positions very well. You will almost never see me with a long opinion on other positions that much either. I am not a know it all by any means.

I know what I know and I don't apologize for knowing it just because a few think that being confident about things you KNOW makes you sound arrogant or something.

So he asks me what makes a franchise QB. It's actually very simple. IF he can do this one thing reliably then he is on his way to being a franchise QB.

A FRANCHISE QB MUST: Reliably get the ball where it is supposed to be. Nothing else really matters if he can do at least this much. Weak arm or strong arm doesn't matter that much because an OC worth his salt can just call the plays the QB is able to execute well if he can just get the ball where it is supposed to be.

If he has a strong arm and has no touch he will just throw short balls that are uncatchable AKA Weeden/D.A. If he has a noodle arm and the OC keeps calling hail marys is that really the QBs fault? Some of it for being weak but mainly the OC for being dumb.

Technique is extremely important because it allows the QB to have a reliable delivery and the optimal chance for the ball to go where it is meant to go. Then you have guys like Bernie who had that horrible side arm technique but was still good because he brain had such great anticipation with the ball. Even still his bad technique got him into ball placement nightmares at times in crucial moments.

Don't confuse this as hype on accuracy because it's not. You can have a great QB who is very accurate have poor numbers because of bad receivers who drop balls or run the wrong routes. This gets fixed more often than not by having the same QB throwing to the same receivers over a period of many years. Something we have not had in quite some time. Will be fun to see how Kessler and Coleman pair up this season.

Part of putting that ball in the right spot is reading the defense and KNOWING not guessing where that open receiver will be before the ball is snapped. Then making a decision fast enough after the snap to get it there quickly to limit the defense's ability to react to the offense. IF a QB is only giving teams a few seconds to make their choice eventually the offense will burn the defense. When the QB is not confident and can't decide because he doesn't trust what he sees then he holds the ball too long and terrible things happen to him.

Tom, Peyton, Joe M., and Otto are the greatest of all time because They processed information insanely fast and reliably threw the ball to the right place. Nothing else is as important. Jimmy G. displays that same kind of skill set and it's why Bill demands a HIGH price to pry him away.

You can believe me or not. Hurl insults at me if you like too. At the end of the year I am confident I will be right like I usually am about the QBs in this draft and FA. Facts are facts whether you like them or not.

He has done in the NFL exactly what he did in college. He didn't lose his skill set when he came to the NFL but polished it even more. I am VERY confident he is a franchise QB just like I was the year he was drafted and I wanted to take him instead of Manziel.

You said you knew a QB that has played six quarters in the NFL is a franchise QB. Just because you present something as a fact doesn't mean a fact.

You did it!