DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum JG Chapter 7 ...

It's a fact that he has the right skill sets. It's a fact that he reads defenses really well and always has. It's a fact he is very accurate and always has been. It's a fact that he gets the ball gone VERY fast. Watch actual video on him. Read the stats. The numbers won't lie to you even though for some reason you think I do.

We will know in a few years either way won't we. As for me I KNOW it now =) Your insults won't change what I know. Like I said, believe me or not. It's your loss if you don't and no skin off my back.

Too bad we can't all hit the pub cause I bet we would all get along in real life =)

There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know.

Which is why teenagers know everything...they don't know what they don't know...or how much they don't know they don't know.

If we think he is the guy we need to get him. We were prepared to use the #2 last year for Goff, if he were there. We may be prepared to use the 12 for a kid who has only started 13 games and lost his only bowl appearance. We may be prepared to use the #1 next year (either as our pick or by trading up) to get Sam Darnold.

Point is...if they honestly think he is the guy, or has potential to be the guy, you get him. I wouldn't overpay for him, as Washington did for RG3. But, I would try everything you can do to get him. Does that mean you use the #1? I guess that is a question you ask....is he worth it? Do you take that gamble or get yourself MG and try other means for your QB? It is THE one position we have not solved and a major piece of the puzzle. If Hue really thinks he is the guy to lead this franchise....you do whatever you can to get him.

"I think one of the key thoughts in the draft will be:
Will the 3rd QB in 2018 draft be better than MITCH or WATSON of 2017 if they are available at #12."
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In my mind Hue's marching orders are clear. Find a quarterback.

They are looking at every option right now. Next year there are no guarantees where they will be in the draft and who else is looking at quarterbacks.

In addition it would be hard to look at this years guys and compare them to next years guys without them playing another year.

Next week are the NFL winter meetings. It might be when the Garoppolo deal happens.

If that deal is not made I believe they go with someone in this draft.

Great post. I always loved this quote, because he really hit the nail on the head in terms of our limited knowledge. Maybe it wasn't appropriate where and when he said it, but a good thing to say nonetheless. So here are some of my unknown uknowns with JG that makes me pull up.

1) Is he a franchise QB? He was a great prospect (my second favorite that year), but did he learn and experience enough to become a franchise QB? Maybe? I know you can't tell with 140 snaps over three years, no matter what. A good QB is a consistent one, so without a decent number of plays to track, this doesn't give you enough of a sample to definitely say one way or the other.

2) Is he injury prone? I hate to say it. But I do question a QB who can't play four games in a row. Especially one who has been sitting on the bench his career, hopefully, itching to play. I normally might not make this point, but the Browns haven't had a QB who has played in 7 straight games since Weeden, probably. Maybe longer. Either way, the Browns do go through a lot of QB injuries. Can JG stay on the field?

3) Will JG want to be here next year? This probably the most circumstantial of all the questions. But I don't want to get ourselves into a Kirk Cousin's situation, where we've franchised him for two years and him wanting out.

These are all the red flags that make me shriek at the thought of giving up a first rounder for him. Now with those unknown unknowns, I'd be fine with giving up two second rounders from different years. But a first rounder can fill a position of need for a decade or longer if they're good.

We have ALL of the knowns from college just like any other QB we could draft. We also have six quarters of knowns from the NFL.

So there are more known knowns about JG than any QB in the draft.

Maybe. A major rookie QB known known is that they have a 4 to 5 year contract at a very cheap rate. Stability is a nice thing to know.

I would just remind people against looking at a game, or a game and a half, and believing you know what you have.

Brady Quinn looked great in his 1st start. He then stunk in his next 2 starts.

I am not saying that Jimmy G will stink, but I would be very cautious when evaluating a young QB in just a game or 2.

I would just remind people against looking at college qb, who has no NFL game experience, and believing you know what you have.

It's pretty obvious that the board is divided on whether or not they want Jimmy G in Cleveland or not.

I know that my mind is made up. Nothing that anyone says at this point is going to change my mind. I feel that other guys like bonefish, 888, Razor, etc are not changing their minds, either.

I believe that the guys who don't want him in Cleveland, aren't going to change their minds no matter how much game tape, scouting reports, quotes from teammates and coaches, is provided as evidence that Jimmy G is a good qb.

So, since we aren't changing each other's mind and there really isn't any debate........how about we drop the conversations about what he has/hasn't done and just talk about new information that will be coming out?

I am not saying that in a mean way. It's just a suggestion.

I do know that it is hard to keep reading stuff like Jimmy G will suck because Cassell and Hoyer sucked after leaving NE, or that be wary of trading for Jimmy G because he hasn't played many NFL games....when those same people are wanting to draft a college qb who has played ZERO NFL games.

To me if anyone can watch Jimmy play in college and then watch his nfl exposure and not see an amazing player I don't think they have actually watched video. The guy is so good he converts everyone who actually watched him. I"m done talking about whether he is good enough or not because it's something sooooo obvious.

The question left is whether Bill is willing to trade him at all and whether Jimmy is willing to be traded. We have no way of knowing till it happens and it won't happen till much closer to the draft. Anything short of the #1 pick that we need for Garrett is OK with me. I just hope for once the Browns get lucky enough to land such a great future QB instead of watching him en up elsewhere because we were too darn cheap to go and get him.

In answer:

1) He most certainly is not a franchise QB. Not today. Just like any player in the draft we are projecting future ceiling and likelihood of becoming the FQB. . . I basically agree with your take. But would emphasize that no matter if I like him and project him to be very good - the reality is he is 100% without doubt NOT a franchise QB the day we acquire him (assuming we do).

2) Another good Question - and for me a real concern. It could of been a freak accident. Maybe he is brittle. But it has to be taken into consideration.

3) Meh - I don't think this is such a big deal. If he's great, we have the money to spend on him. If he's great we go from 1-15 to 8-8 next year ... maybe we are in the hunt for a playoff spot. What QB doesn't want top dollar, and to be THE guy that turned a franchise around?? I think Washington is an anomaly unlikely to happen here... No doubt some might wonder about Mack, Schwartz, Pryor ... but to me the circumstances are so different and I look to a deal like we have for Collins, an elite LB who we wrapped up nicely. And while some on here might hate the FO - I think Sashi is getting kudos for building a platform to be successful from - cap room, draft collateral. I think any smart player would see that there is *potentially* light at the end of the tunnel. It might be a train coming.... but I think it's the sun!

Personally I think the other unknown is the impact of playing for Bill Belichick and how that impacts how good JG looked in very limited time on the field. Forget whether Bill is a shrewd GM and whether he "gets the best deal" in most trades .... just look at QB's who have played for him, getting big deals to go elsewhere because professional scouts and GM were convinced that the player was that good ... when in fact it was as much or more the NE system that helped them achieve their level of competence as part of something bigger.

Given that whoever we draft at #12 is a projection and probably a risk regardless of how diligent or 'safe' we try to make the pick (OJ Howard or one of the CB's might be considered a "Safe" pick/position) .... they carry just as much risk as JG. As does any QB we could take. In fact Trubisky carries a lot more risk ... his ceiling might be higher? But his risk and sample size is so much smaller. So - really I don't have a problem with the #12. I'd like it to be just that - or #12 and a 3rd / 4th rounder. But given the draft collateral available - I can justify a 2nd rounder (2018) as well. That's me personally .... I have no idea what the Browns FO will think. Or Hue. It's going to be a long 6 weeks.

Not understanding the durability concern. 1 injured shoulder due to a 240 lb linebacker (alonso - borderline dirty in my opinion - see Brian Hoyer) landing his full weight on said shoulder could have happened to any QB in the NFL. He had no such injury concerns coming out of college.

I agree that the player dead weighted himself onto JG.

But the fact remains - he couldn't get through 2 full NFL games without an injury. That's not a good track record.

That's true, but the investment in terms of both money and draft picks is probably lower with a drafted QB.

I am still hoping for Davis Webb, maybe in the 2nd.

I think it comes down to this. If the Browns think he is a franchise qb that can lead the team for 10+ years, the cost isn't all that much of an issue.

If they don't believe he is that type of player, then they should not pay a steep price.

That is it in a nutshell...

And, if the coach and FO think he is capable to lead the franchise 10+ years....they shouldn't even question using the #1 to get him. You do it. If this is the case and this is what they do then I would probably use the #12 to give him a solid, safe, dependable offensive threat and grab OJ Howard while they are in the first round. We have discussed in countless threads how deep this defensive draft is....we can address the defense in later rounds.

JG Chapter eight in five... four... three... two.......................

He's buying a house by LeBron.

\
And just down the street from Cower ......

I don't think the board is divided over that fact. I think the question is put on the asking price.

My opinion is set. We deserve the best player, Myles Garrett. We "earned" Myles Garrett. The Pats don't deserve Myles Garrett.

I'll start with pick 16 this year, a 2nd this year. If it is #33, that's it. If it is our later pick, I'll toss in our best 2nd next year as well. If that doesn't do it, they can go pound salt. Then I go all out to sign him next year so the Pats get nothing other than a comp pick.

I feel confident that these guys won't make moves out of desperation. Giving up 2 first rounders this year is what a desperate person would do.

I think you are spot on there. There a few posters who appear to not want JG no matter what (or are very leery about what he'd cost in picks and $$$) and a few that would trade a (very) great deal to have him...but far and away the majority seems to think like you posted above.

I was hoping to swap #12 for their #32 and we throw in something from next year...but that ship has sailed. Hopefully our second 2nd this year and second or third 2nd next year get it done.

I think / agree that coming away with a premier edge rusher and a starting QB from the first round of this draft would be awesome. I give Vers credit for being the first on here to make that summary comment.

Brilliant! As we discuss, we seem to want guarantees. None available. If this gets done, we have a solid QB. If not, go fish. Get Trub. But we should pay only a sensible amount or a bit more. We need to find his worth, not BB's valuation alone. If we have to burn picks once or twice to get impact in the first round, so be it. I hope it happens, but hand-wringing won't get it done. Grandma told us when we had questions"Go; know." We need to know and act. But if it doesn't happen, so be it. All the energy and resources must go into improving this situation. But I take MG. No horse trades with the First.

My brother in law was listening to moving the chains this afternoon and they had one of their mock drafts. There was what I thought was an interesting JG twist.

NE and Cleveland make a trade but nothing like anything that has been talked about so I thought that I would toss it out there for everyone.

NE gets:

The 2017 #1 overall pick and selects Myles Garrett.

Cleveland gets:

Jimmy Garopollo
NE's 2017 3rd round pick
NE's 2018 1st round pick

Pat Kirwin had our #1 overall pick.
He accepted the trade

That has to be the worst trade in history, our history...and we all know how bad that is. I wouldn't do that with the #12 let alone the #1 over all. All we get is NE #1 next yr.? Might as well be a second rounder. and a third this yr? Might as well be a 4th this year. Terrible, Haslem better step in and fire anyone who says ok to that.

I'm less interested in the specifics and more intrigued by the concept.
NE giving us JG and picks rather than us just giving a buttload of picks to them.

This becomes about them trading for our pick than us trading for JG. Turns the tables and gives us the upper hand in the negotiations.

*LOL* .. thats funny ... the person with the upper hand is the person with the most leverage ... JG is the piece of this puzzle that has the most value therefore giving BB the UPPER HAND regardless of how u want to frame it ...

We need and want JG a hell of a lot more than BB needs or more than likely wants MG .... and its not even close ...

Are there any good quarterbacks today that got their start as a backup on another team? I can't think of one. I had to go back to Brett Favre before I could name one. Kurt Warner might fit the bill.

Steve Young is another.

He didn't start off that way, but Alex Smith was a back-up to Kap before he got traded.

I think there have been plenty of back-ups [to some very good to great qbs] that have went on to be successful.

Tom Brady
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees [would have been backing up Rivers]
Steve Young
Kirk Cousins [RGIII wasn't good or great, but he did have a fantastic rookie year]
Tony Romo
etc

I think it is wrong to devalue a guy who is Tom Brady's back-up. Like............who wouldn't be a back-up to Brady?

Young was never a back up on another team ...

Warner IMO doesn't fit the bill cause he was cut and wasn't traded for ...

Where did Romo come from .. not sure how he ended up in the big D but i know he wasn't drafted .... i think the tuna went and got him but i could be wrong on that one ..

Scott Mitchell .. that didn't work out well ... *L* ..

I think there was another one hit fill in QB right around the same time ... crap .. can't remember who ... maybe it was one of the NE back ups that failed ... dang ... making me mad ...

Drew Bree's but he wasn't a back up either ....

What would u consider Alex Smith? .. he was Kap's back up .. did he get traded or go FA .. i think he was traded ... but not sure how he is considered a back up .. i guess technically he was ...

There's got to be more ... don't feel like thinking anymore ...

Are you talking to me?

The post was not directed at u ... your post wasn't up when I started mine ...

I was looking from the angle of one team's backup becoming a good starter elsewhere. I was curious to see if there was a similar situation to JG, so I tried to find one and struck out.... that's what prompted me to make this post. None of the qb's you listed fit that bill (except maybe AS?). Brees was a starter his last year at SD. There have been a bunch of backups that got big bucks to play elsewhere, but very, very few have panned out. None in recent times. Hoyer's about the best of the lot, I think.