DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Butch Davis Revisited

I'm glad I read the thread until the end before I replied. lol

It's like you said, the firings aren't the problem, the hirings are.

People need to think about the fact that none of these fired head coaches have gone on to greatness elsewhere. None of the fired GM's have went on to be great GM's elsewhere.

So getting rid of them wasn't the problem. Bringing them in here in the first place was the problem.

To Romeo's credit he did land a HC job with KC.

But you're right, bad hires, all of them. I agree that Chud could have succeed here but the FO was lacking support for him.

Oops .. my bad .. thanks for the correction on Romeo ... i hate putting out mis-information ..

one thing i can always count on when I put out bad info ... someone's gonna point out my phoopa .. for some odd reason a lot of folks on here LOVE to point out my mistakes ... they seem to take great joy in it ..... u have any clue why that might be ddub ... *LOL* ... and i know your not one of them .. just having some fun ..

I do believe hes the only one since our return either FO or GM type role that has even GOTTEN A SHOT AT THE SAME LEVEL JOB AS HE HELD HERE ...

I'm sure you're right about all the rest.

I think people point out your phoopa when it gives them a chance feel like they get over on you.

The real problem is there are so many phoopas here on a daily basis posted by the crowd and nobody points them out, it's crazy. I don't point them out because instead of a, "thank you for correcting me", it usually starts an argument or sends them scurrying for anything that could make them at least a little bit right. Not much accountability on here, the main reason the information ain't what it used to be.

Thread title, Butch Davis Revisited....THE THINGS I REMEMBER MOST are these two---Butch, trust me I know college players!!! and what do we get- WILLIE "run, willie, run..GREEN, who was a pot head AND got stabbed in back by his woman....OUR FIRST notable pot head.....did we learn anything...nope....now we get "THE ANNUAL- JOSH GORDON tease me with your potential TOUR....Butch didn't know NFL talent and he's known for ruining programs now- NC wasn't squeaky clean while he was there....good riddance....GO Browns!!!!

Chud was easily the best HC we've had since the return. Can't believe we fired him so quickly.

For all the talk of Junior firing quickly (and I agree with that), the firing every year/two years started with Haslem.

Randy was a horrible owner, because he lacked interest (thats why Holmgren was hired to babysit), but the only guys who didn't get at least 3 years was Mangini/Kok, and Kok was incapable of doing his job, and Mangini sort of got screwed when they brought in Holmgren/Heckert who wanted their guys.

As Diam said, Randy just hired horrible people...lol.

With Haslem I am hoping (and really wishing because I've seen no evidence thus far) that he becomes a better owner moving forward as he has gained experience.

However, the early years of Haslem show he's worse than Art or Randy, because he hires bad and then doesn't give them enough time to do their jobs. Hopefully that changes, but we will see next offseason when this regime goes 5-11 how patient he is going to be.

Also..



Didn't they get a bunch of sanctions and basically have to restart the football program after he left?

No they won the National Title the year after he left, and then lost the Title game to tOSU the year after that. They basically fell off the map when Larry Coker couldn't recruit at the level that Butch could. Butch was an incredibly good recruiter, and a really good coach in general.

His problems here were he had too much roster control and he wasn't good at selecting/developing players, and the mess of the ownership changing hands between Al/Randy......jmho.

I think you are thinking of Davis's time at the University of North Carolina.

Those Miami teams were so stacked. In 2000 they had Clinton Portis, Santana Moss, Reggie Wayne, Andre Johnson, Jeremy Shockey, Bryant Mckinnie, Vernon Carey, William Joseph, Dan Morgan, Phillip Buchanon, Ed Reed, and Mike Rumph. That is ridiculous. The next year they lost some of those guys but picked up Willis McGahee, Frank Gore, Kellen Winslow, Jonathan Vilma, D.J. Williams, and Antrell Rolle.

Ridiculous.

I wish he had more time too

Why do people think or believe this? He was in over his head and not ready. He lost the team and the players respect. He talked out both sides of his mouth.

I think people confuse best OC with best HC.

Chud was a crushing disappointment.

Do we forget how awful Butch was at drafting? People crucify Mangini over that one bad draft, but Butch failed to draft his own superstars from the U.

Randy stayed hands off, maybe a bit too hands off, but to pin all of this on Randy seems extremely disingenuous.

Nobody truly knows if Chud would have been good or not....he was given less than a calendar year for goodness sakes.

He is another guy who falls into the category of hasn't done anything YET once he left here comparable to the job he had here though.........so I get your point about folks proclaiming him the one that got away with zero evidence to prove that.

Conversely, he could have been/become a great HC....we don't know because as of date he's never got a real shot to become one.

Yes he did VERS!

The most impressive thing to me about Chud was the fact that Norv Turner was his boss in SD and thought so much of Chud that he took a job working for him ... that told me something ...

Chud will get his chance ... GAURANTEED ... when he does ... we'll all know ... me thinks he's gonna be darn good ...

what happened with the Chud situation ? Do you believe he lost the players trust ?

Well he lost the owners trust unfortunately! And that is why he was canned.

I think the players all really liked Chud and wanted to play for him. I just think that watching Brandon Weeden go out there was just so demoralizing for a team that was looking good for 4 games.

It honestly baffles me that Haslam made that move. Although, Chud pressing him on the Sunday night deadline may have contributed? I don't know. Just trying to be reasonable on why Haslam would fire him.

I liked Chud, but the team did quit during the last part of the season. That's a bad sign.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but didn't Banner fire Chud?
I remember reading Afterwards that Jimmy really liked Chud, but Banner promised a big name HC and so he let him fire Chud. Also heard that Chud played favorites so It might not of worked out as well as we think.

The way I remember it, it was totally a Banner fire... but to your point, there's no way Banner makes that move w/o Haslam's approval.

I think Chud could get another shot, but I wouldn't guarantee it by a long shot. It's been 4 off season cycles since the Browns canned him, and I can't remember where he has interviewed one time. Nor has he been pushed as one of the hot young coaches.

I certainly think he could get another shot, but he needs to get that chance soon as the NFL owners tend to like the young hot shots who are deemed to be on their way up.

God no .. folks seem to forget the dysfunction that year ... all the internal strife ... crap .. we had the "GM" texting plays to the sidelines during games ... *LOL* ...

Here's how it broke down ...

- the thief was basically MIA for the year bribing everyone to stay out of prison ... that left the pencil necked geek and the idiot Dumbardi in charge ...

- we had the QB BS fire up about 3/4's of the way through the year ... the FO was shoving JFF down the coaches throats ... the coaches said ... ENOUGH ... NO MORE ..... that was the straw that broke the camels back and started the avalanche of bad blood becoming clear for all to see ...

- Chud and the coaches literally HATED the geek and dumbardi ... they didn't get along at all ...

- the dysfunction was palpable ... NO ONE was happy and the thief was off trying to stay out of jail so he had NO CLUE what was actually going on cause he had the geek feeding him all the info ..

Was the team lost with some games left ... ABSOLUTELY ...

Was it chuds fault ... HELL NO ...

All the elmers glue in the world couldn't have kept that ship together ... *LOL* ..

Chud was fired by Banner ... the thief finally showed back up .. took everything the geek said at face value ... KNEE JERKED as usual ... fired chud ... and within 2 or 3 weeks after hearing the HORROR STORIES about the geek and dumbardi ... he fired those two ...

If the thief was around .. MAYBE he would have come to the RIGHT conclusion and fired the geek and dumbardi and let Chud and that staff stay ...

Crap D .. it was so bad that Shanny was trying to get out at halftime of the last game ... i don't think he even waited til the 2nd half kick off to start angling to get out .. *L* ..

I have no clue why anyone would blame Chud for losing the team .. there was a hurricane swirling around that team ...

Your confusing Chud with Pettine's situation. JFF was in college when Chud was here, and the texting stuff happened with Pett and Farmer (and I'm not trying to be the guy that corrects you, but just want the information good as we move forward in the discussion).

Chud's team really did play like they quit down the stretch imo.......we disagreed then and disagree now I assume....lol.

I didn't want Chud fired, but I wasn't nearly as upset as some because I thought his players quit on him. For all of Hue's faults (and he had many last year) his guys played hard for him throughout......didn't see that out of Chud's guys.

Oh boy .... thats a bigger mistake than usual ... *L* ..

OK .. then that was the year that we had like 5 QB's hurt in the last 4 weeks of the year ... at least i hope it was now ... *L* ..

There was a ton of dysfunction that year ... and Banner/Dumbardi did not get along with the coaches from day 1 ...

I better shut up now ... *L* ..

Ya .. we disagreed back then would be my guess ... i never understood why folks thought Chud lost the team ...

It was a lot like last year ... but i believe we somehow started off OK and then the injuries started to take over ..

OK .. heres an article ... sums it up better than I obviously can ... *LOL* .... I'm only going to post the parts about how the season started, the injuries mounted and everything we did was focusing on the next year ... and i could care less what the players say ... even though it makes me look good .. *L* ... but they did use the word DYSFUNCTION an awful lot ...

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap2000000...-browns-players

"This organization is a joke," one Cleveland veteran told NFL.com. "I'm completely in the dark about this. Please (rip them). I feel for Chud. He was good to us."

Added another veteran: "We are so dysfunctional. These billionaires need to pick somebody and stay with them. These aren't girlfriends. You can't dump them if they (fail to please you) one time. Too many dominoes fall and (screw stuff) up when that happens. This is highly upsetting."

While Chudzinski had lost 10 of his last 11 games after a 3-2 start, players were quick to point out some of the mitigating factors. For one thing, despite the promising early-season play of journeyman and Cleveland-area native Brian Hoyer, the Browns' quarterback situation was a volatile mess, with a prior regime's first-round draft pick (Brandon Weeden) and an inconsistent veteran (Jason Campbell) manning the position after Hoyer suffered a season-ending torn ACL.

The Browns also sent strong signals that they were ignoring short-term gratification in the name of building for the future, most notably trading starting running back Trent Richardson -- the third overall pick in the 2012 NFL Draft -- to the Indianapolis Colts for a 2014 first-round choice.

Throw in the strongly stated rhetoric voiced by the new regime, primarily owner Jimmy Haslam and CEO Joe Banner, about patience, stability and continuity, and Chudzinski's firing appeared unfair at best and hypocritical at worst.

"Tremendous mistake, just epic," one Cleveland player said. "It makes no sense. Everything we did this year was setting up the future -- trading draft picks, trading players for next year's picks, playing young guys toward the end of the year to see what they look like, sitting older guys at the end to get them healthy (Joe Haden, Phil Taylor, John Hughes) when they could have played.

"This is such a rash decision. They just (expletive) hired him last year! The whole year we were making all decisions for the future and now you're pissed the coach didn't win this year? What the (heck)? It was like a big experiment with players and scheme. I think it came from upstairs, and then they are surprised we didn't win more games? Yes, it's all about patience and then fire your coach Year 1. This blows."

Said another Browns player: "We had a disappointing season, but it wasn't like we invested heavy into this year anyways. Trading away our starting running back was not the way to win games today."

According to NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport, the team's brain trust -- Haslam, Banner and general manager Mike Lombardi -- felt that the Browns were not improving or responding to Chudzinski and his assistants (all of whom, curiously, were reportedly retained, at least in the short term). Further, according to Rapoport, when the front office recently shared its concerns with Chudzinski, he did not seem to believe that the team's problems were severe.

The front office also collectively felt that losing to a talent-deficient team like the Jaguars (32-28 on Dec. 1), and the lopsided nature of many of the defeats during the team's 0-7 stretch to end the season, were black marks against Chudzinski.


When these sentiments were relayed to one Browns veteran, he replied, "It's kinda weird that's what they think. I would tend to disagree. We lost the last couple of games by a wide margin because injuries to our best players built up. Before then, we had Chicago, New England and Jacksonville down in the fourth quarter."

Later, in response to a statement issued by the Browns in the official announcement of Chudzinski's firing, the veteran said, "Does this mean every year we are not 'consistently competitive' they will fire the coach? This is awful."

That article pretty much sums up the situation......Hoyer got hurt and the team nosedived. The thing that bugged me about Chud (and the only legitimate concern the FO had) was the embarrassing losses down the stretch. Injuries or not they were better than the Jags and got their butts kicked (badly if I recall correctly).

Like I said, Chud should not have been fired, and it was bush league. However, I'm not overly saddened by it, because I think they quit down the stretch.

I would also bet you an adult beverage of your choice that he doesn't get another HC job (say within the next 3 years). He got screwed here, but I don't think the Browns lost all that much...jmho.

I'll take the bet .. but i want u to consider this before u do ...

- chud has been under the radar since he left until last year when he took over the Indi O all by himself ..

- he has Andrew luck and some good WR's and TE's ... if they fix the OL ... WATCH OUT ...

He will have that O humming ....

Let me know ...

The thing that bothered me about Chud was if there was favoritism. I can't stand anybody who puts someone over another when theres evidence other wise. Now don't get me wrong I'm sure every Coach has theirs, just a pet peeve of mine. Like the H back nobody seemed to like but Chud would put him out there any way. I heard about this the following year when we let him go and he signed with SF. Wasn't any better there either.

the tough question to answer: who was the best head coach we've had since 99? (probably RAC)
the tougher question to answer: who was the worst head coach we've had since 99? (Shurmur in my book)

I'd substitute the word DEPRESSING for tough ... *LOL* ..

No coach could win with the roster heckert put together...

Heckert? He was one of the bright spots these last 15 yrs.
At least he drafted some half way decent players, he just needed a Coach to go along with him.

Yeah, trading up for TRich was brilliant. Drafting Weeden was brilliant. Trading up for Hardesty was brilliant.

Trading w/Atlanta who took Julio Jones and us ending up w/Phil Taylor was brilliant. Taking Greg Little in the 2nd was brilliant. Drafting Marecic in the 4th was brilliant.

Heckert was a scout's GM. He could pick a probowler out of a bunch of 2nd and 3rd day guys. But the dude could not hit on a first pick to save his life. It was painful to watch.

I think that is true of him and Farmer. Both guys sucked w/some early picks and found gems later in the draft and/or UDFA.

If just one of those regimes had lucked into a franchise QB, this conversation wouldn't be happening.
It's easy to be critical in hindsight, but at the time, Savage was a hot front office candidate/talent evaluator. tried BQ but it didn't work out.

I think the point was he had more keepers than the others.