DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Options at QB

*LOL* ... i wouldn't want u as my lawyer ....

I certainly agree with you. Our coaching staff knows the players, has all of the film to break down and sees it all.

So you either have to conclude that when the HC calls out your QB about pushing the ball downfield, he either knows that's the problem or he doesn't know what he's talking about. People can't have it both ways.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2013/11/cleveland_browns_are_currently.html

I'd recommend clicking through the link and reading the whole article. It is weird.

That article was the basis of my comment. We were like 4-5 and then Cincy blew us out right after it.

If Kessler did not get benched late in the year the Browns would have went 0-16 instead of 1-15. The Browns went 0-8 in his starts. Cody could not lead his team to 1 win last season. Let that sink in 1 win!!!

Cody threw 6 TD passes last season vs 15 for Osweiler. Yea Cody is better.

I really like Hue Jackson as the Browns coach but he can and has made mistakes. Drafting Cody was one of the mistakes.

Yes. Kessler was the sole reason we lost those games. Our crap defense didn't have anything to do with those eight losses (the lowest point total our opponents had in those eight starts was 24).



What. You are joking, right? Osweiler had 510 pass attempts, Kessler had 195 (Osweiler actually had a lower TD percentage than Kessler by 0.2).

Again, what does Osweiler do better than Kessler?

"Vinny Testaverde is definitely better than Joe Montana, he had more career touchdown passes. Also, Blake Bortles is definitely better than Jimmy Garoppolo, he had 23 touchdown passes and Garoppolo only had four."

These points are so ridiculous that I have to think you are trolling.

But.. but.. Brosweiler won a playoff game!

I know you are joking, someone probably thinks that is a valid argument. For that person, the Texans beat the Raiders who were had to start Connor Cook in that game. He was a rookie who had only played in one game in his career. The Texans had the best defense in the league. I don't think I've seen a QB play worse in a game than Cook did in that game.

At this point, I think they might take a flyer on a later round QB this year to shore up depth if nothing else but there will be no attempt to take one early because we are in for another year of suck. Next years QB class should be much better and this year is all about supporting cast with focus on the D. JMHO

That is a really good point. That makes me believe that Hue & Co saw plays where the ball should have gone downfield and it did not...in spite of the often-times porous O line. Hue saw it...not some fan on a message board but the darn HC. If Hue got to the point of saying publicly that the QB has to throw the ball downfield, one MUST conclude that he knows what he's talking about.

I'd also say that Hue & Co saw something in CK that made them draft him (less than a year ago) earlier than he was thought to go. If they "give up" on him after about 1/2 of a season then one must conclude that Hue & Co's talent evaluation of QBs is suspect.

All that said...I don't think they've given up on CK AND I don't think they are even-remotely-considering that he is "the guy"...at least not at this moment. The QB position - as with many other positions - is up for an upgrade.

Lastly, I think it's unfair to label CK at this point. You couldn't draw up in your mind a worse situation for a 3rd Rd rookie QB to start in the league. I think it's remarkable that he accomplished the things he DID while still acknowledging his shortcomings. If we don't get JG (I hope we get him), I think CK is the starter on opening day.

I agree with you. They had no intention of Kessler ever starting a game last year. I'm certain they weren't happy being put in the position of having to start him. I have no doubt given the time, that Kessler will improve upon last season.

I also agree with you that they understand that Kessler isn't "the guy".

I rarely ever label a player after only one year. I certainly won't do that except to say that given his limitations, I don't see Kessler as a franchise QB. I do however believe with the improvement I expect to see happen, that he can notch out a long career as a back up QB in the NFL.

You said you don't want to label him but then you did. You labeled him as a back up.

I don't know what some of the QBs in this league looked like as rookies, and it's impossible to know how they would look if that rookie year has been on the Browns of last year ..... But I find it hard to believe Hoyer and a host of 'starters' would have performed better. . . Sure all those questionable starters arent the quality you want. But they are still starters.

I don't know what'll happen and if Kessler will show more willingness to throw deep and show increased arm strength. But it wouldn't surprise me to see him get a chance sometime, somewhen as a starter. We all acknowledge his arm and deep ball issues year 1. But he impressed me last year when you take all the adversity he was facing - prep time, OL ability and pressure/hits, WR's to throw to, a concussion oor two. I don't think anyone is rooting against him but I think I'm rooting for him more than most. 😀 I'd still like Jimmy G behind center for us, but find myself constantly wishing CK the best of it in 2017.

I'm basing my opinion on his skill set. What I didn't do was label him a bust.

Suddenly, Reality set in . . . .

That was an interesting exchange. Playing Kessler/Manziel/RG3/whomever so "we can see what the Browns have going forward" just enraged me. What we have in the corral is crap, no horses. I didna need to see more of the same in duplicated losses. But we persisted, and we insisted on more of the same because we had nothing to go with and did little to change up much of anything.

This is one Hue fail IMO, and I hope he has outgrown it. Especially true of our D.

I don't think evaluating one's skill set is real big on this board. They prefer to make generalizations.

Which is a generalization in itself...

Bickering. Penalize yourself. LOL

As for JG, we'll find out on draft day how much Bill wants to keep him. He's going to play his cards close at this point.

As for Mitch, if we are really serious about selecting him at #1, we would probably be willing to tade the #1 pick to NE, which we said we wouldn't do.

My guess is this talk about Mitch is possibly to prompt NE to take our best deal.

With Belichick, Anything is possible. That guy is crazy good at this.

Or after the private workout and meetings Mitch blew them away not only with his arm, talent, and knack for football, but his personality and character as well. Perhaps Mitchell is the QB Hue has been looking for...maybe he fits every prototype Hue thinks in a QB to a tee.

If we do end up taking him, Browns fans won't be dissapointed...he is an under rated talent, and he is far more talented then the media and scouts have given him credit for due to their obesseion with Garett Trubs has kinda flown under the radar....he will be a big time player in the league, and i hope its here in Cleveland.

I'm thinking that the NFL asked the Browns to try to keep it a surprise, and so we told Schechter that we are debating between a QB and Garrett.


I think Garrett's pretty much locked in. If we were to trade down, it would have already happened. Deal would be done. Same with if we traded the 1 for Cousins

We have plenty of resources to trade up and grab Trub.
If he is the QB that the FO want, I would hope that they draft Garrett then work a trade for Mitch. I would prefer if they are trading up they grab Adams but would understand if they take Trub.

I would totally be against using the #1 pick on him unless we already locked up the #2 pick.

There are a lot of variables with JG. I would rather wait a year and try to get him as a FA than work a trade with the possibility of losing him next year as a FA. I would imagine there would be a sign and trade agreement prior to the trade but crazier things have happened.

That's quite the endorsement. What are you basing it on? I like the guy, but I don't see him worth the #1 pick in the draft. In fact, if I were to grade any of the top 4 with a critical eye, I'd have to grade all of them as 2-3 rounders. I'd still give Garoppolo a 2nd round grade, even though I think he's better than Trub (my highest rated QB in the draft.) It's only because of the premium put on QBs that any of them go in the first, and I won't be entirely shocked if they all drop significantly on day one. They probably won't, but I wouldn't be shocked. So what do you see in his 13 starts that warrants such high praise, and can you point me to any particular games that really stand out for you? I'd like to see what you see.

Yes it is quite the endorsement, but I believe it. Here is some hihgtlights below but here are the things to look for:

1. Look at his arm, that arm is money
2. The ball placement and accurancy is top notch
3. Look at his pocket awareness, he feels the rush, moves, resets his feet and throws
4. He is able to throw very well on the run as well as throwing from the pocket
5. He goes through multiple progression and makes decisions very quikcly
6. He is very mobile and is able to run if necessary.



Look at the articles as far back as 2012

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/20211601/mentors-mitch-trubisky-named-mr-football



Its like the football gods literlaly grew this guy in our back yard because they actually pity how long we have been as bad as we have been. This guy also actually wants to play here in Cleveland.

Its destiny...i fully believe in my heart that Mitchell Trubisky is the guy to turn things around here in Cleveland...all his event of his life, breaking all the Mr.Ohio records, going 30-8 in high school tearing it up at NC.....it meant to be...the football gods are trying to hand us our franchise QB on a silver platter...the question just simply becomes...will we take it, or we will pass on our chance for greatness and listen to the media hype over a DE...that remains to be the milliond ollar question.

it gives me hope that the Browns front office is now not sure who they are going to take...I have no doubt after Jackson met him and worked out with him he sees what I have seen with him....that he is the guy to get things turned around in the right direction here...he knows Cleveland Browns football...he will bring the rivalry back to Cleveland...

if he goes elsewhere, he will be successful, I have no doubt of that...i'd rather he be successful here....

I would like them to take Garrett at 1 and then trade up for Hooker.

I'd rather wait and see how things roll out. I'd really like it if one of the two safeties fell. I've seen Adams a bunch, and he's always stood out to me.

Didn't watch much OSU this year and hadn't keyed in on Hooker till watching youtube videos on him. I'm pretty sold on that guy too.


I just think there's gonna be some decent players at the 12 spot, I'm not so sure I want to trade up for a non-QB unless we get a good offer

Thanks for putting that out there. Clearly you're very passionate about him. Makes me want to look at more tape, which I'll do this week. My concerns are, like everyone else, his limited starts, and his mediocre record, but I do like a lot about him like his pocket awareness, deep ball accuracy, ability to scan the field and his mobility.

Since you plan to study film on him, please concentrate on the difference between his early starts compared to his last three games. It's amazing how much differently a QB looks once the competition gets some game film on a QB. With only 13 starts, it took opposing teams some time to gather enough game film on him. Once they did, you can see the results from his last three starts.

I just finished Georgia Tech & Stanford. He made a couple bad throws in the Stanford game, and the pick 6 was probably the difference, but there were a couple crucial drops that could have been the difference between winning and losing, IMO. The two picks that game stand out as possibly the type of result you're talking about (the DBs anticipated the throws and stepped in front of the WRs both times for the picks) but he played well most of the game. Sometimes he had good protection, sometimes he was pressured. His run game was stifled somewhat also by the Stanford D, but he still has some really good running plays. The two INTs also seem to be outliers in that, he's had three games with two INTs each, and zero the rest of the games, throwing 30TD to 6 INTs. I'll take that any day.

Georgia Tech was a fine performance all the way around. (5th to last game)

His last four games were Duke (L), The Citadel (who they crushed), NC State (L) & Stanford (L). So I'm assuming you're referring to the three losses, which were all very close games, two within a FG and NC State was within a TD. They should/could have won the Stanford game, IMO.

I'll watch Duke and NC State and I also want to look at the Virginia Tech game because that was a blowout, and his worst game with a 39% completion average 0TDs and 2 INTs.

appreciate your enthusiasm and info ... i honestly don't know much about him. If we draft him I'll root for him.

In my perfect world, we draft Garrett and then Hooker/Adams

Duke - 3 TDs and his second 2 INT game. Couple bad passes, one almost picked off, a dropped TD, threading tight windows, up 14-0 in the 1st. Dropped deep ball/uncalled Pass Interference. The 3rd TD of the game, was great shoulder fake that opened the TE down the seam. D dialed up more pressure in the 3rd Q. D made a great play to tip the ball then intercept. He checked down nicely a few times under pressure. Some nice moves to evade the rush. A deep ball in the 4th should've been caught but the WR was held by the defender. (Sad part about college is not marking the ball from a PI at the spot of the foul.) Might have been the difference in the game, probably would've been a TD that would have put them ahead for good. D was definitely ramped up in the second half. His second INT that game was the killer. They had the chance to drive down for a FG with a minute and a half left in the game, he had all kinds of time, and threw a terrible pass, but again, this looked like a game that could've been won, but for the dropped TD and/or the pass INT. Didn't see anything here that leads me to believe that having tape on him made the difference.

NC State - A lot of early pressure. Sacked in a four man rush. Overthrew a deep ball. Stood in took a hit but delivered the ball for a big gain. NC State put up two TDs in the first and had them down 14-0 going into the second. Dropped ball. Bad screen pass, poor throw. Great mobility. Receiver did a Pryor, had the 1st down on 3rd down, but ran backward and they were stopped. 21-0 halfway through the 2nd Q. A dropped screen. Roll out to the right, threw first of three TDs. Several very nice passes in a row, tight, accurate, on the money. 28-7 in the third. Gimmick play on 4th & two with Switzer throwing cost them a chance at a TD or FG. Stupid call. A couple miscues, miscommunications, and pressure with four, not getting much help from the O-line. Huge deep ball to wide open receiver, thrown on the run, a little short, but caught. Nice drive to add another TD. Huge bomb in tight coverage for a TD - Beautiful! Climbed the pocket, waited and boom! Right on the money. With six minutes to go, really nice anticipation throw across the middle. Blitz sack. Then they show blitz, rush three, everyone covered, he escapes the man pursuing and gets the first down. Off target deep throw under pressure. Went for it all on 3rd & twenty, led the WR too far. Just overthrew Howard on deep ball 4th & 20, he had it but couldn't hang on. Both of those throws are probably made and caught nine times out of ten. They looked like they were beat pretty good, but I don't hang the loss on Trubisky. No help for the D early, and the O-line was allowing pressure with 3 & 4 man rushes. Almost brought them back, IMO.

Virginia Tech - Starts out very ugly. D is teeing off. A couple poorly thrown balls, and INT (1st 2 INT game), his run game isn't going anywhere. Couple dropped key passes. One at the end of the half, on 3rd down to stop the drive. 13-3 at the half. Dropped deep past to that the 3rd. Pouring rain. 1st & 20, he gets 11 back. I like that he seems to be able to recover on long yardage penalties. Next play was a fumble on a handoff. Lazy throw to the flat battery down. Another dropped pass. Pass into tight coverage batted away. Deep ball down the sideline tipped, not hauled in, but probably could've been caught. Couple bad throws in a row. Another drop. Clearly not a good day for him or the receivers, and the D is relentless. Should've been TD broken up by the DB. Escape under pressure, throws a nice pass almost one-handed by Switzer but came out when he hit the ground. Awful throw for the second INT. Ball might've slipped in his hand. Hope whether isn't an issue. Figure grow up playing in Ohio, it shouldn't be. Last throw was terrible, bad mechanics, behind the WR. Worst performance, 6th game of the season.

Overall though, in two of the three losses he looked good. Makes all the throws. excellent mobility, excellent accuracy when he sets up, and good accuracy on the run. Very good deep ball accuracy. Good vision, good anticipation, quick release, and really good escapability. I didn't see anything that says having tape on him effected his performance. (Like I said, his worst game of the ones I watched was was his 6th.) Overall his numbers are excellent, with a 68.2 completion percentage, over 3700 hundred yards, that excellent TD:INT ratio and good rating numbers.

I want to look at a few more games, particularly Georgia (L and 1st game of the season), Florida State (W) & Illinois (W). I will say this, if we draft him, I'll be happy. If we take him at #1, I won't like it, I won't agree with it, but I'll understand it.

I took a look at the his throws from the Florida State game. That was a beauty. Granted, their D looked horrible, but he carved them up and directed two late 4th quarter scoring drives.

KOB - I see why you're so high on him. There are knocks on his mechanics, like the locking of the front leg, how he may be Osweiler-esque by not playing to his true height, and not exhibiting ideal shoulder flexibility, but it's hard to knock the 68.2% completion percentage or the 30:6 TD to INT ratio. I still wouldn't take him #1 overall, but I can see them trying to get him after we take MG if Garoppolo is a no go.

I completely agree. With all of it.

I do too. My only reservation in addition on Trubisky - did he not fail to beat out a marginal starter before last year? I'm trying to recollect stuff Ive read here there and everywhere. Apologies if I'm misrecalling. I love Mahomes' natural talent but it will need patience.

I linked Webb

#like

I like webb too. I don't want to "waste" a 1st rounder on a QB this year. They aren't worth it IMO. Just draft Garrett, Hooker, Adams, Allen, Howard, etc ... or get a ton more assets with a trade back if really needed

I really like Webb too. I do think that he'll need some developmental time, but he is my favorite QB in this draft, especially considering that he could go in the 2nd or maybe even later.

I just worry that a team with an ancient starting QB might take him in the late 1st, and let him develop behind their starter, over a couple of seasons.