DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

Heaven forbid that someone would try to add a little perspective to seemingly-changing opinions/preferences on a message board.

Ok....it's quite possible we liked Mahomes, and even wanted him at 12 if he was there. It didn't make any sense for us to trade up from that position. I wouldn't have like to trade up to get him just as I didn't want to trade up for any QB, not take one at #1.

I do like Kiser in the late 2nd round, especially since we also got a 1st rounder next year. That is about as good as it gets. The FO played it perfectly. They didn't panic in the quest to reach for a QB. They allowed the board to come to them, and gained more picks.

How did Kizer come with #1 in 2018? I think that pick came with Peppers.

You are correct. However, my point is that we didn't use the #12 to get Mahomes. In this case, using #12 on Mahomes would have required the #12 and apparently giving up a #1 in 2018. Instead of doing that at #12 (trading up) for a developmental QB, we got another stud (Peppers) and received - rather than burned - a 1st Rd pick next year.

So what did we do for a QB? We stayed put and got a different developmental QB without spending other draft capital. My point then is that posters who were initially/previously "in" on Mahomes and are now "in" on Kizer are looking at "it" like this:

Which would you rather have?

Mahomes and no 1st Rd pick in 2018 (that's apparently what it would have taken to land Mahomes)...or;

Kizer and TWO 1st Rd picks in 2018...or;

Watson and one 1st Rd pick in 2018.

Mahomes, Watson, & Kizer are going to be joined/compared on this board going forward more so than Wentz and the 9+ players we landed in THAT trade. The folks who liked Mahomes over Kizer 'the players' probably still do so...but prefer the resulting package that includes Kizer. That change of mind is NOT some display of 'homerism' towards the front office...it's simply looking at the entire picture and changing a preference.

Your analysis gets all confusing because Kizer is pick 53. So we lose pick 53, but we do get Peppers and the 2018 pick.


So it's really

Would you Prefer

1) Watson, a 2018 1st round pick, and Pick 53
2) Kizer, two 2018 first round picks, and Jabril Peppers
3) Mahomes, no 2018 first round picks, and Pick 53 (and that's assuming that it would actually have taken a 1st round pick to move up two draft slots......)

Fair enough...I should have added #52 to the 'plus' side of the Mahomes & Watson scenarios...and added Peppers to the Kizer scenario.

I appreciate the explanation.

Easy choice for me - between those 3 option I prefer the one we ended up with.

One of the things I like most about Kizer is that he is not Watson

After reading this story... link Inside look at how Browns' draft unfolded

After reading it, I still can't figure out what the Browns draft process is.
--who is making the decision on which player is drafted and at what draft slot?
....is it Sashi, Depodesta, Haslam, Hue or Berry?

IMO, it still appears that the Browns draft process is evolving, depending on each situation. Understand this: whatever our draft team did, they managed to land what looks to be some good talent from this draft.

Who is in charge?...I can't tell.

On pick of Deshawn Kizer, I assumed it was Hue who made the call to take him at #52...then I find the story below..read on..


Cleveland Browns: Division Over Deshone Kizer?

by Peter Smith 3 days ago
link

The selection of DeShone Kizer by the Cleveland Browns was not made by a united front and could lead to a power struggle down the road.
The Cleveland Browns got a quarterback with the 52nd pick of the draft in Deshone Kizer from Notre Dame. While there’s a lot of high-fiving and talks between fans and some members of the media thinking the Browns may have gotten a tremendous value in Kizer here, those in Berea likely don’t see it the same way.

Not long after the selection was made, NFL Network’s Mike Silver reported a curious quote:

Keith Britton ✔@KeithBritton86
.@MikeSilver on #Browns: "Did they get a QB that everyone in that room views as the future of the franchise? I would say that's a stretch"

10:22 PM - 28 Apr 2017

This is incredibly revealing. First, it doesn’t appear that this came from head coach Hue Jackson. But even if it did, the team is not united on the prospects of Kizer’s future. At the very least, the timing so closely after the selection is curious and certainly doesn’t come off as an endorsement.

The analytics are not kind to DeShone Kizer. He’s an average athlete for his size and his production is equally average. Most of the positives from his profile are due to his size, both in terms of his overall build and the size of his hands.

Defenders of Kizer will point to the supporting cast and his head coach, suggesting that they prevented him from being successful enough to produce better numbers and more wins. Numbers don’t care. Their unflattering and inflexible.

Kizer’s redshirt sophomore season was mediocre and his draft process didn’t go much better. The Fighting Irish went 4-8 and his performance was wildly inconsistent from week to week and even within games. Kizer’s last year has a major disappointment, given his projected growth. Kizer should have stayed in college.

And on some level, people are overrating just how much damage a coach can do just as others are overrating just how much a coach can improve or ‘fix’ a player. The truth is somewhere in the middle and the player is ultimately the player. Kizer wasn’t good and getting away from Brian Kelly and Notre Dame, going to Hue Jackson in Cleveland isn’t a panacea.

In terms of becoming a Pro Bowl or better quarterback, Kizer is working on the fringes in terms of the odds relative to the entire history of the NFL at the quarterback position. Even in terms of making it to becoming a starter, Kizer’s odds aren’t terribly promising.

Meanwhile, the other four prospects the Browns selected so far in this class are gems by the numbers. All four of them have the metrics to suggest they can be longterm starters and potentially become Pro Bowl players.

Kizer is the lone prospect that doesn’t fit that trend, going completely in the other direction from a metric standpoint and sticks out like a sore thumb. It stands to reason that the front office was pushing for another player and it would be fascinating to know who that player is, especially if they ultimately become a great player elsewhere.

That quote to Silver likely indicates that the members of the front office that believe in the numbers aren’t on board with Kizer as anything other than a shot. They effectively let Hue make his pick, take the guy he wanted and are willing to let him see just how good he can become.

This potentially causes some problems both this coming season and may cause cracks in the organizational foundation of the franchise that lead to major problems down the road. Based on his college career, Kizer has no business seeing the field as a rookie. He should sit for the entirety of his rookie season and perhaps longer.

That becomes a problem if the Browns find themselves in position to take another a stud quarterback in the 2018 NFL Draft class. Currently, the Browns have a pair of first-round picks and three second-round picks for that group, so they are poised to be in great position to select a quarterback — unless one of their current passers vastly exceeds expectations.

In the event the Browns are staring a good quarterback prospect in the face, are they going to pass on him for the sake of Kizer? If the front office sees a franchise caliber quarterback prospect by the numbers, they’re obviously going to want and push for that player. Jackson is then put in a position where he may have to defend Kizer and in effect, his role within the organization.

Both Jackson and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams have personnel input written into their contracts. Jackson got the guy he wanted in Kizer and effectively did it on his own, seemingly going on an island for Kizer.

This could lead to major problems after this coming season and potentially lead to a power struggle. On some level, the same argument people are having over analytics and the value of it outside the organization is now taking place within it. Unlike Robert Griffin III, who was also firmly Jackson’s pick, this one cost a significant draft asset and presents the problems next year in the draft when they are still searching for a franchise quarterback.

For the time being, many fans and the media have “hope” in Kizer, but if it’s ultimately revealed there’s a division within the ranks of the Cleveland Browns organization between the front office and coaches, Kizer is a significant symptom. The fact the Browns are not a united front behind the selection of Kizer, even just minutes after the selection, should be extremely concerning.

It isn't hard Mac. All along they have said it is a collaborative effort. In the end Brown will make the call if there is some split opinion.

The fact you can't figure out who is making the calls proves it really is a collaborative effort. They seem to check the egos at the door and simply want the best picks they can make.

I too prefer the 'choice' we made...although IMO Hue probably preferred Mahomes 'the project' (just from what I determined after reading too much on the subject). No idea if Hue preferred the choice we ended up with, but he has to love two 1sts (again) next year.

I'm with you on Watson. I didn't want ANY of the top (4) QBs in Rd 1 - let alone trading assets to get one. I'm not a Kizer fan per se, but I'm good with where he fell to us.

In the end, I think Kiser has just as good a shot of being a good QB as any of the guys selected before him. They were all bunched up, each has flaws. It's is simply a matter of guessing which flaws can be fixed and which can't.

As per usual.

Pete Smith was really high on Mahomes. If everyone was convinced Kizer was a franchise QB, they would have picked him sooner. I think he's projecting his sentiments into their thought process a bit much and reading too much into Silver's tweets.

It could be argued that I'm projecting too much in the opposite direction. Time will tell.

Browns release K Brett Maher

Posted 1 minute ago


The Cleveland Browns have waived K Brett Maher.

Maher spent the last three seasons playing in the CFL and was signed by the Browns on March 20.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...6b-929d4d24eca6

NFL regular season win totals released by South Point in Las Vegas

http://www.covers.com/Editorial/Article/...nt-in-Las-Vegas
Apr 30, 2017 |
By: Rob Hansen as Vegas with Sunday's release of 2017 regular season win totals by South Point sportsbook.

AFC North

Baltimore Ravens 9.5
Cincinnati Bengals 8.5
Cleveland Browns 4
Pittsburgh Steelers 10.5

Sounds high for all four teams. In fact, I think the Browns might just have the best shot of reaching their projected total.

As much as I loathe, detest, despise, and dislike them, I suspect that the Steelers will win 12-13 games his year.

Just for laughs.....

How are all those teams gonna have so many wins without their starting QB's??


I thought it was funny. I mean isnt that why we got Garrett and Ogbah?? Hahaha

Comeon now have a laugh it's good for ya.

This comment seems to contradict your past points when talking with posters about Dak Prescott.

It's all about where players are lined up on your board. If you have a QB projected in the 35 to 40 range on your board, getting him at #52 is good value.

No doubt. When we don't take them, the slant is we were stupid. When we do take them, we were stupid for not doing so earlier or we simply stumbled in to the pick.

Not at all. Let me explain - Dak was drafted by the Cowboys. Ergo - Brilliant. Kizer was drafted by the Harvard Boy. Ergo - bed. End of.

I know it's only their 2nd draft, and the jury will be out on these picks a while, but it looks like this FO has a clue ... JMHO

Just wondering.........do you guys ever get tired of ganging up on mac and making fun of him? Or, do you feel "bigger" because it's a bunch of you against one poster?

Guys? Because I make a post to point out his obvious contradiction, that doesn't mean people are ganging up on him. People agreeing with my comment, sure.

By the way, as I've shown posts of yours in the past, don't you dare talk about posters ganging up on people.

I submit the above as Exhibit A : When a poster can't find a substantive response after being called out for another hypocritical post and thinks posting a gif as a response is clever.

It's super adorable tho.

It is. I don't disagree.

No, I don't get tired of it at all. Be it him, or anybody else, I am going to question moronic comments being stated by a person I don't consider a moron.


I mean, what am I supposed to do? Do you expect me to not say something?

^ Then please, for all of us, don't do it anymore. I'm guessing it will significantly decease the amount of times you're suspended on this message board.

I can only control what I say and do. I don't bunch of gang up or coordinate comments.

I do have a long history of thinking the agenda mac has shown consistently is bogus, including limping " everything" Brown's under one thread in order to endlessly recycle past discussions.

If I say something dumb on this board I expect to be raked across the coals by multiple people. If I see something dumb I'll comment too whether no-one or lots of others have posted. There is a distinct difference between offering an opinion and endlessly beating a dead horse, which imo is what mac does.

No and yes.

I know I have just started to post on these boards but I have been reading all this for some time....

I would expect and think that being astho this particular thread and the attitude in which it was started and the overall attitude in which it keeps going should be no suprise to the originator or those who read it to see the amount of discourse it conjures.

I do not condone "bullying", however, in this particular instance the poster (Mac) is airing his displeasure with everything Browns by any means neccessary. The broad scope of his displeasure often times boardlines with the ridiculous by twisting subjects in such ways as to no matter which way you come at his conclusions he is always right ie the Kizer pick. The rationale behind his claims make every other teams picks relevent but somehow we are just stupid and we were lucky absolutley no credit can penetrate his claims that the Browns and its front office does anything right.

If you are going to take that stance to the bitter end on a Browns fan forum then I am sure he knows what he is doing, accepts what he is doing and can take the comments directed at him. My hope is once the winning starts he will come back to us but we all know fans that have just been so fed up that they must put on the negative pants each morning no matter whether it is logical or not to let it all out.

So I say hey what do you expect? Everyone to listen to what they consider nonsense without firing back or do ya just let everyone enjoy the therapy from both sides of the aisle? I say grab some popcorn cus it wont change either way until those W's start rolling in.

If anyone is interested Sashi Brown will be on Mike & Mike this morning at 9