DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

At this time, mac, Brantley has not been charged...

True, but what is the point you are trying to make then?

Yes, I "liked" a comment. I forget who posted it, and I have too much of a headache to go and look.

I "liked" the comment, not because it was directed to mac. I like mac, agree with him some of the time and not so much other times. It happens on a message board. And, yes, I think mac gets piled on sometimes, and me "liking" a comment was not meant to pile on more.

The comment I "liked" pointed out an inconsistency among mac's points. mac pointed out that Kizer was passed on by teams as he fell to the second round and hinted he was just someone who fell into our laps and has no chance of being the guy. It's an opinion, that's fine.

But this is after spending all of last season ripping the team for not taking Prescott, who, was passed over twice as many times as Kizer. Doesn't mesh with his newest thought.

This kind of thing is a pet peeve of mine. Like those posters who did not think Jimmy G was worth two 2nd round picks because of lack of experience but was all for using 12, 33 and two other 2nd round picks on Trub. When people make these type of inconsistent, irrational, illogical points it smells of just saying whatever comes to mind to push an agenda.

I had no problem posting about the Jimmy G/Trub contradiction, and was going to do the same here. But someone already had, so I "liked" it instead of repeating things.

Cap, you were not one of the posters I was accusing of bullying and ganging up. LOL.........not even close.

It's the same people over and over again.

Can't please everyone I guess...

Thanks, mac. I see where you're going with this now. Might not be quite "apples-to-apples" as Brantley dropped 4-5 rounds whereas Dak dropped only 2 rounds or so, but I do see the parallel between the two...

If not charged that doesn't mean he is innocent

Which is pretty much where I'm at. I mean on the first thread or two he made bashing the FO I simply thought he was stating his opinions, and that's fine.

But what is this, the 8th or 10th thread on the exact same topic? At that point the rhetoric gets old and burdensome.

I do agree with Vers that there are a few posters who go over the edge any time that you take the FO or any player to task and if that's what he's referring to I'm fine with it.

But I believe a lot of posters are just sick of hearing the same BS over and over and over again. I tend to agree with that line of thought.

But as I've said before, if people would just stop commenting on macs continual bashing of the FO his threads would fade away like others do.

Yes it will. A constant, droning subject that will never be given a rest.

That will remain a never ending, constant, droning subject that will never be given a rest, as long as people keep responding to the threads.

I'm out.

mac, sometimes you make it hard for me to defend you. LOL.....

Sheesh man......I tried to deflect the hate away from you and unto me so you could have a break........but then you come back w/that crap directed towards Pit.

I think Pit is an objective poster. There aren't many of those around. I think you are wrong to bash him.

His stchick just gets old after a while. Like, years of it.

How much should we blame the new FO on the 1-15 record?

I know, 1 win (a lucky win at that) resulted in a lot of frustration on Sundays last season. But, the biggest difference between 1 win and the perennial 4 win seasons that we have seen over the last decade is that we got our pick at the top of the draft.

Now, if we don't get at least 4 wins this season, I can get the bashing. But last years draft class should not be judged until after this season. If Coleman WR steps up, and Coleman RT lands the starting job and performs adequately. If 1 of the three other WR's can make a splash. That draft doesn't look so bad. Not saying its going to happen, but shouldn't we give them a chance. before we call it an abomination??????

There was a lot of learning on the fly last year, and many of the players that saw time probably were not ready. And even if they deserved to be on the field in no way should they have been in the roles they were in.

This FO inherited a train wreck. PERIOD!!!!!! You have every right to post your opinion, but please try not to hate based on the last decade of bad FO moves. Savage, Holmgrem, Heckert, Banner, Lombardi & Farmer were more to blame on last years results than Sashi & co.

I am not saying they are perfect, but overall I feel they are doing what is needed to make us a playoff caliber team. I know most people will say we shouldn't aspire to be a Bengals/ Texans type team that makes the playoffs but have no realistic chance at a Super Bowl. To that argument I say you have to learn to crawl before you can walk. And to expect a Super Bowl before we make the playoffs is not realistic. Today's society is such a boom or bust, instant result needed point of view. I love that the Browns are not trying to fix this over night and seem to have a plan and they are sticking to it.

Go Browns!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if any of these proclamations will be challenged?

I'm seeing a question, a bunch of ifs, a probably, and some I feels. Not sure what proclamations you are referring to.

I understand wanting to be a voice of moderation, but it feels like it might be a little overzealous in this instance *shrug*

No need to scare off the new blood.

LOL...........didn't think so.

...which "proclamation" did you want to see challenged?

They inherited a train wreck? Seems fairly "Res ipsa loquitur" to me.

A lot of the time you have a point, just didn't really see it in the post you replied to. Normally wouldn't have bothered responding, but the poster had only been on the board a month and we can use some different voices/perspectives on here. No big deal, but new people don't know you like us "old-timers" do.

Number one: I was not bashing the poster.

Number two: A lot of people go off if someone makes a claim that criticizes the FO.

Number 3: This seems biased to me: "This FO inherited a train wreck. PERIOD!!!!!! You have every right to post your opinion, but please try not to hate based on the last decade of bad FO moves. Savage, Holmgrem, Heckert, Banner, Lombardi & Farmer were more to blame on last years results than Sashi & co.

I am not saying they are perfect, but overall I feel they are doing what is needed to make us a playoff caliber team."

The Browns FO made a ton of moves last year. They did not keep some of their best players. They traded out of the #2 spot. They dumped veteran players. They kept a ton of rookies and inexperienced players. The chose not use FA as a tool to build.

I am NOT saying those are all bad moves, but I think it is incorrect to insinuate that the FO didn't have anything to do w/the team's 1 and 15 record.

Now, I am going to drop this because it will just get ugly w/the usual suspects. I just feel that there is a huge double standard in how comments are addressed on this board. Criticize the FO and get bashed by many. Defend the FO or proclaim the FO is doing well.......and most do not say one word.

I do not feel as if I "went off." If the FO kept Swartz what do you think the record would have been last year? 4-12? In no way better than 5-11. My comments are not directed towards anyone in particular, as many have beef with the FO. I just feel they go a bit over the top due to the last 10-12 years of bad decisions that have culminated in a 1-15 season. I think a lack of perspective is why. JMO.

In what way has this team not been a train wreck over the last decade?
Are you implying that a perennial 4-12/ 5-11 record that we have had over the last decade is good enough and we should stay the coarse?

We had a decent year in 2014. What happened? A very good OC asked to leave due to the dysfunction of the franchise. Seems clear cut-train wreck!

How was Mike Pettine hired????? I am guessing because the first 3-7 choices did not give the Browns a look. No inside info but I think we can all agree that it was a horrible hire. I would say the Shurmer was worse! Chud only got 1 year! JMHO but I think many agree with it... Train Wreck!

I believe Hue should hire an OC. I think this will help him in the long run but, we shall see how it works out.

I am a big boy with thick skin, say what you want about my post, but I feel it was rational and on point.
This FO is 16 months in and I will support them until it is obvious they are steering this team in the wrong direction. I think they deserve it. No doubt over the next 12 months, expectations will rise. Hopefully more wins will equal more confidence in our FO. But, there are going to be people that will still be upset even if we make the playoffs in 2-3 years. They will have all the questions and blame of why the Browns didn't win the Super Bowl, but none of the answers.

Go Browns!!!!!

I'm certainly not here to bash your opinion, but to discuss it. You see, when you isolate the Schwartz decision to last season, you're looking at one fourth of the picture since it would have been at least a four year contract. So let's look at the bigger picture rather than trying to isolate it to a single season.

Where are we currently at the RT position? From what I can see is hope and projection with no real answer. So looking at it from that standpoint, we are worse off at the position. Not just for last year, but this year and the foreseeable future.



Pettine was a terrible hire and most certainly was hired by default because they couldn't land anyone near the top of their list. I too would like to have seen Chud get more time. Shanny leaving a huge loss of talent.

But you see, as much as you seem to give this a broad brush, I believe you are missing something. It's true this team was/is a mess, depending on your viewpoint. Problem being, each regime has to be held accountable for their actions. Some good, some bad. Nobody bats a thousand.

I believe this FO is improving and is learning some lessons. Let's face it, 2016 was the first year that most of these guys had ever held the positions they had. It was basically like a rookie FO. Anyone who didn't expect or refuses to admit that mistakes weren't made is clearly looking through orange colored glasses.

Let's look at the OL again. Last year they pretty much botched the Schwartz deal no matter how anyone slices it. But when you look at this year, it's obvious they learned a valuable lesson from it. They reversed the hard line logic and signed Tretter and Zeiter to big contracts. They extended Bitonio on a large contract extension.

So tell me, how much better do you think the team will do after beefing up the OL? 4 games, 5 games? If so, according to your own logic spending all of that money was a mistake as well. No, you are right that this regime needed to follow a different direction than previous regimes it's just that your logic in regards to Schwartz happens to be weak.



I agree.



See, I don't blindly support every move a FO or coaching staff makes. I support what I see as the good ones and criticize the bad ones. Each on a case by case basis. I've seen what I view as progress. Both in re-signing our own players as well as what I perceive to a better draft than last year. I believe they hired a better DC.

Just because you see me question some things they might do doesn't mean I don't support them, it means I feel each move will pass or fail on its own merit.

No need to explain mac, I just feel they have done some good things. I also see mistakes I feel they've made. I just never see you giving any credit for the good things and always trying to focus on, or create the bad. I would just feel much better if you were a little more even handed.

Not trying to tell you how to post. Just the way I see it.

PitDawg

So tell me, how much better do you think the team will do after beefing up the OL? 4 games, 5 games? If so, according to your own logic spending all of that money was a mistake as well. No, you are right that this regime needed to follow a different direction than previous regimes it's just that your logic in regards to Schwartz happens to be weak.

I believe the FO made a solid offer to Schwartz, he turned it down. But people harp on the move as if the Browns let him go without an attempt, not the case. They made an above market offer. No doubt the Browns would have been better with Schwartz last year. How much better? don't know. I don't think it would have made a difference. More than likely it would have resulted in 2 more wins. Giving us the 3rd pick and not the #1. This year is different, They have evaluated the talent and have spent money on FA. different year, different step of the plan.

I feel they have laid a foundation, acquired draft capital, and are now building a respectable NFL team. No quick fixes, tore it down to build it up right.

They will make mistakes, but some act like everything is a mistake before there has even been a chance to make a mistake.

Schwartz was back in Cleveland to sign the deal before the FA signing period ever started.

I agree with you that people are often too quick to judge some things as mistakes. I also think some people are busy making excuses when they do make mistakes.

If JT who is the best of the best cannot give us any more wins, then why do you think MS could give us any, let alone 2? MS wouldn't have added anything at all.
The only thing it does do, it forces us to look somewhere else for RT OT.

We don't know all the communication and dialogue - so we truly don't *know* what happened.

Regardless of the W/L - not having Schwartz hurt the team in last year. I think most would agree. Just like the Browns look to be worse off without Pryor on the team this year.

Whether someone is to BLAME is debatable in my opinion. It *appears* the FO made a fair offer to both players and neither are now on the team.... It *appears* both teams made the BEST offer to both players - and still neither are on the team .... We don't know what the terms or conditions were regarding Schwartz and how well or poorly the offer was communicated and if the offer was only if he signed without going the FA route.

What I can say with come confidence - the Browns in the last 2 years have made good offers (the best long term deal either player received) to our own FA players .... and next off season when free agency offers are made, I think that will influence and impact players and agents negotiations in what I believe to be a favorable way to the Browns.

But Pit - do we know that as fact? It would help to understand the process if someone could post a timeline of actual events...

Brows offer Schwartz BEST CONTRACT , Schwartz refuses it I'm worth much more!

Browns that offer is good until you try FA after that it will be adjusted to going market value. Schwartz I'll test the market knowing offer may change.

Schwartz to KC I want $10MIL, KC no you're not worth it we won't even give you what the Browns offered you. Schwartz "CRAP" goes back to Browns, sorry that deal has changed your agent screwed you, Schwartz grovels back to KC for less money ends up regressing in his play.

No sure it workes out exactly that way, but probably pretty close.


We offered the most money. That says a lot about the FO. They know how to value players.

Mitch walked from the table and sought a better deal, to which he could find none. He came back and the deal was off the table. That says a lot about the FO as well. They aren't going to be played and strong armed in to deals.


Sorry Mitch. There is a new sheriff in town.

Sorry Mitch? LMAO...........he went to a playoff team and the Browns still don't have a RT while only winning one game last year.

Sometimes, taking a tough stand is just a sign of ignorance.

Not quite what I was asking for...

We just disagree. Some see ignorance, some see brilliance.

Mitch wouldn't have added a single win to our totals. Heck, Joe Thomas didn't add a win. Or, OK, one of the best LT's ever was responsible for our lone win.

Offensive linemen don't win games.

Offensive linemen don't win games? Okie dokie.

I think this "how many games would we have won this year with him?" is a short sighted question. Perhaps our record is 6-10 or 1-15. No way to know. But even if we assume 1-15, that isn't the question.

The question is how much better would we be in 1017, 2018 and 2019? We were going to suck in 2016 regardless. But follow the bouncing ball. If we had resigned

Maybe we don't draft someone other than Shon Coleman at #76
How much better would adding that player make us?
How much more would Kizer develop if Schwartz is our RT in 2017? How much less pressure from the right side would there be, allowing Kizer to feel more comfortable in the pocket advancing that much faster in learning to follow his progressions?

We can't answer any of these questions. But how much better would we have been in 2016 is fairly irrelevant.